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Jim Payne (The Big Government We Love to Hate)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
November 18, 2021 4:00 am

Jim Payne (The Big Government We Love to Hate)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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November 18, 2021 4:00 am

Despite U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland's recent denials to Congress, an FBI whistleblower has now revealed that the agency is, in fact, using counterterrorism tools against concerned public school parents. And there's more going on against parents nationwide. We'll talk about it. Plus: Dr. Jim Payne discusses his book, "The Big Government We Love to Hate: Exploring the Roots of Political Malaise." That's next time on Thursday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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Now it day by day about this White House concerning parents who want to make sure that there kids are not the victims of vaccine mandates and are not being taught. Critical race theory and talks in the case of white children that somehow they are white supremacists and systemic racists. Those parents are actually good parents and they're actually heroes for standing up against the leftist activism in the public schools. But what's very interesting is to note how this story just keeps morphing now. You might recall that the Atty. Gen. Merrick Garland was going before Congress not to go and was being raked over the coals little bit because of this memo that he put outs and the memo had to do with making sure that the people who were showing up at the school board meetings were not intimidating or harassing school districts and they were going to get on it and there was this letter from the national school Board Association, and the whole thing was to get aimed at making sure that these terrible, horrible parents didn't do anything nefarious and then it comes out that the national school Board Association actually was getting together with the White House over this that this was I'm working my way up to the news here because you gotta know the background. This was just a few days ago on the New York Post, the White House was actively engaged with the national school Board Association before that domestic terror letter. This is according to a memo that came out want to give you a little bit of background on this. They report the White House was actively engaged with the group before it sent a letter to the Biden administration asking that the feds investigate outspoken parents and likening them to domestic terrorists. That's from this internal memo from the N SBA the national school Board Association. The October 12 memo raises serious questions about whether the White House ordered Merrick Garland and the FBI to investigate confrontations and other incidents at local school board meetings across America. It was made public.

Just a few days ago and it detailed at least one specific meeting with White House staff on September 14 which was just over two weeks before the national school Board Association Senate letter to Pres. Biden. So the White House was not informed of this from the National school boards Association. They actually were commiserating with the national school boards Association prior to the letter showing up at the White House.

So the whole thing was a set up.

Now it even gets worse. It even gets worse. You will recall that Merrick Garland had to sit before lawmakers and talk about his whole deal regarding weapon icing the FBI against parents in America as if there's some sort of domestic terrorists to keep in mind, it was never one incident mentioned in which a parent was acting in any way shape or form like a domestic terrorist and let's go back to some of what Merrick Garland had to say at the time that he was questioned by lawmakers listen to cut one, the Justice Department supports and defends the First Amendment right of parents to complain as vociferously as they wish. I can't imagine any circumstance in which the patriot would be used in the circumstances of parents complaining about their children, nor can I imagine a circumstance where they would be labeled as domestic terrorism, no problem here were not trying to demonize parents were not in use. The patriot act against parents. We understand that the Justice Department that parents have a right to weigh in on their kids education. Oh, wait a minute and update now via an FBI whistleblower who has done a patriotic duty here in revealing this. This is via zero hedge, but it reports that House Republicans in the judiciary committee now have sent out a letter to Atty. Gen. Merrick Garland after the whistleblower provided a protected disclosure revealing that the FBI's counterterrorism division is compiling and categorizing threat assessments related to parents including a document directing FBI personnel to use a specific threat tag to track potential investigations, they weren't kidding when these leftists in the Democratic Party were talking about the greatest threat to America.

Are these white people who are going to do all sorts of domestic terrorism against the United States and you hear this kind of thing and you just giggle about it because it's so compatibly absurd. Then you learn what they're actually doing and that is there. Acting on this lie there acting on it and the Atty. Gen. is getting before Congress and lying about it now. Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio was the one who came out and revealed all of this he took aim at Merrick Garland when he appeared just recently on Fox News when he was asked this question of Laura Ingraham. So what do you think did Garland lie is what he said To, or either lied to us, or he doesn't know either thing either. Either one is bad for the country bad for justice in America understand this as we speak.

At this moment, the FBI is not maybe is treating parents as terrorist threats and the Atty. Gen. came in from the committee and said just the opposite.

You just played the clip he said I cannot imagine any circumstance where we treat parents or we give them the label of domestic terrorist but in fact, the day before. As you pointed out the day before. An email gets sent out to agent across this country saying just the opposite, say, smile, parents given this threat, tag, categorize, label parents. When I first read this memo I thought this is no different than what the IRS did just a few years ago when they had the bottom of the bolo list be on the lookout for these kind of organizations using these kind of words and they had a list of American citizens just like the FBI is doing now. So he either didn't know which is terrible, or he misled the committee when he came in front of us and we need to have them back. Plain and simple.

I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that he didn't know about this case, the Atty. Gen., there is no way he didn't know about this.

He's lying, and Jim Jordan probably is trying to have an appearance of neutrality before they haul him before another congressional session judiciary committee confab of fine you have to say that I don't have to say that I think the guys lying through his teeth.

I think they all are. I don't trust anything from this administration. I don't trust them from the top to the bottom.

These people consider you a patriotic American a problem, a domestic terrorist. If you will. If you happen to be a parent who opposes critical race theory or poses vaccine mandates in the public schools.

These people are out of control their liars and their tyrants and the American people better have had enough of that, and better fight back, to the best of our ability against these people and demand that our lawmakers get this guy out and hold these people accountable. What is the accountability that is going to be required of the White House. What about Pres. Biden know you could say well in outlining, and from all appearances, the guys senile. So what the world he can hold him accountable for what you see now shouldn't be in the office should he. But they want, law will know about that whole train wreck going on there in Washington. What in the world is going on. I don't want to hear and I'm just saying this for the record, I don't want to hear one more GOP lawmaker and I'm not impugning Jim Jordan, but I want to hear one more GOP lawmaker get in front of the cameras and make a big deal and grandstand and make a great show for YouTube bringing these people before them and in saying tall things because you know what if that's all you're going to do and you're not gonna follow through and do what needs to be done about it and I recognize that they don't have the numbers in Congress to be able to fully do what they want to do. I just am sick and tired of the shows.

I'm tired of the shows. These people have to be dealt with and they have to be dealt with to the full extent of the law and they have to be dealt with seriously. We have to stop treating these people as if they're just a bunch of goofy uncles who come out of the closet once a once a year and you see them talk crazy and and say ridiculous, nonsensical things. And if it's just old uncle Joe.

Isn't he a hoot raised is gonna do these silly things.

If okay Job go back in the closet. You know what the Joe we have in the White House right now is a dangerous man. He may be dangerous because he's out of it and he's just doing what they tell them to do.

He's admitted this and how many press conferences, while not supposed to do this and I'll get in trouble if I say that who's running the country. I think his initials could be be and oh, but that's just me. It could be Susan Risa could be wrong, plain, but I think it all goes back to a president, we remember very well, under whom Joe Biden served as vice president.

But who knows there's more to come stay with us on Jennifer today. This is Janet math or to provide a link international authorities in China are making life difficult for Christians. It's against the law to share Christ with children under age 18. We cannot preach to children under 18, that is practice in law when parents bring to the church when you can teach in English and then you can send gift of gospel to them is great joy.

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The doctor ended up going to prison for 300 years soon as I can't remember what was a long time.

The guy was thrown away and they then took the key and discarded it in the latest nano nearest river. At any rate, the FBI didn't want to get involved in that involved in that. You know, the FBI shrugs it shoulders when there are serious issues involved, but boy they'll go after parents who complained to school boards. It makes me want to call for every parent who has a child in public school to show up at the school board just to see what the FBI does unite you can't arrest 40 million people are 50 million people. Can you FBI, nor would you waste the resources to do so were to call your bluff's outrageous. This is like East Germany folks, how are you enjoying communism.

So far, do you like it.

I'm not enjoying it. I don't think anybody ought to enjoy it. Now I want to bring you up to speed on what else is going on related to how parents are being treated around the country. Here is some breaking news.

This is very encouraging. By the way out of the state of Missouri, the Atty. Gen., there Atty. Gen. Eric Schmidt has filed a lawsuit against Springfield Public schools for sunshine law violations after the AG's office requested public records from the school district relating to critical race theory and anti-racism teaching in the Springfield Public schools now. The lawsuit alleges that Springfield Public schools has publicly acknowledge they are instructing teachers and staff on critical race theory stating in a December 2020 report Springfield Public schools reported that it had required the Board of Education senior leadership team and equity champions a nice name. The equity champions to participate in a one-day training from the phase seen racism institutes as part of the 2019.

Fall leadership series.

According to the schools. One of the facing racism institutes. Training objectives is to introduce the components of critical race theory from educational research with applications to the district. Further, the lawsuit alleges that at another training, teachers and staff were required to consult and oppression matrix arguing oppressor yourself on this chart and then they had to identify where they fall on the matrix fantastic.

That sounds like a load of fun. Did you put them in a Soviet prison cell. After they confessed to their white crimes that they've never committed on by the way, according to this matrix privileged social groups include white people mail assigned at birth not assigned your maleness or your femaleness. It's a recognition of what the child is male or female and get this one another privilege social group Protestants.

Oh yes, there's just so much privilege and Protestants.

Of course there are many Protestants who are below the poverty line. Let's not talk about that there privileged another figure presented to staff stated that covert white supremacy could be education funding from property tax. Oh yeah, I feel so much like a supremacist.

Every time I have to write a gigantic check to the government right whether or not it's income tax or property tax why it's so much fun it's it's such a privilege to be able to take our hard earned money and handed over to the government to do who knows what with all. Also, you can't say all lives matter that makes you a covert white supremacist yet another figure that was presented to Springfield Public schools staff at a different training stated that make America great again or police murdering people of color and celebration of Columbus Day are examples of covert white supremacy.

See, here's what needs to be said to these people forget it's were not going along with this garbage and I'm so glad to see that this Atty. Gen. Eric Schmidt is taking the bull by the horns and suing these people and the reason he's doing this is because he's trying to get information from them and they're refusing to cooperate G shocking is in it, refusing to cooperate with the Atty. Gen.'s office yeah that's what's going on.

He put out a whole tweet thread. In fact, you can read it yourself.

Eric Schmidt did.

It's is the effort to indoctrinate our kids to the divisive lens of critical race theory is happening in the heartland Springfield Public schools has been caught red-handed and now are refusing to provide documents we've requested. He goes on to talk about the fact that he's now filed this lawsuit against the Springfield Public schools. Oh and by the way to your little bit from the superintendent of this fine school district. I don't always white supremacist because he's a white guy. I'm a little concerned about the message that's being sent here by the Springfield Public schools to impressionable minds because I don't know if they've noticed this man is white so he's supremacist and he's dangerous but nevertheless this is what he had to say about this wonderful push for critical race theory in the schools. This is part of the evidence collected in this lawsuit listen to John Youngman, Mrs. Guthrie, our district has recently adopted focus area five sport increase focused on equity and diversity actions in our system.

Part of that is professional learning. We know that our learning really impacts our students and our community as we think about the last year there've been a lot of things that have been playing out across our community and our nation.

Covert, 19 or racial injustice moments against the black community that are played out in cities across the United States are students or staff in our community have been impacted by those moments you take time to reflect and continue to learn about how we use those moments to grow our system to grow our students and to make sure that this educational experience is the best one possible for everyone involved. No you don't have to do that you have to teach the children, reading, writing, arithmetic, science, things like that.

How about you stop trying to socially engineer little kids.

There's a thought fire this guy Springfield parents get this guy out to get your school board out. Get your superintendent out get the administration now get out your equity people get them all out of their protect your kids to ridiculous. Oh by the way, the presentation from the Springfield Public schools also contained examples of covert supremacy. Another example of this is calling the police on black people excuse me, so what happens if a black person is a victim of a crime by another black person is it covert white supremacy for the black guy to call the police on another black eye. Yeah, according to Springfield.

It is all, and this is my favorite one. Eric Schmidt's the training materials also identified colorblindness as covert white supremacy.

A reminder that MLK said I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Clearly Martin Luther King Jr. by this definition is a white supremacist fantastic Hugo Eric Schmidt. I'm so glad to see that this Atty. Gen. is going after them all and they're also trying to charge exorbitant fees to get these documents go after get on go get these guys in court. I couldn't be more behind this than I am couple of other things that I want to squeeze in before I run out of time concerning parents live in County there is an official in Virginia. There's an official now that his branded a nonpartisan concerned parents group, alts, rights, and that elicited some pushback from some black and some Jewish parents who said all write exactly were white supremacist.

That's in Loudoun County. Then you have an Arizona. This is by the New York Post police have launched an investigation into claims that in Arizona school Board President kept a dossier on some outspoken parents who oppose mass mandates and critical race theory. Fantastic. Another fantastic moment in school board history it. It's just it defies logic doesn't. These people are activists, they want to socially engineer your kids. No wonder so many Christian parents are homeschooling their kids. No wonder so many Christian parents are saying whatever it takes to get my child a godly education at all. Based on the word of God. I'm gonna get it done because I see what these people are trying to do in the public schools and for Christian parents who are parents of kids in the public schools for various reasons and I'm not upset about that because I think there are times when parents just make the best choices in front of them, because situations are different, but you need to be aware and alert to what's going on in your local school district and I would advise every parent listening go to your school board meetings. Ask your children to reveal what they're being taught in school. Asked them specific questions about critical race theory are you being taught that your white supremacist, are you listening to some of this underrepresented people talk about no LGBT Q plus people of color in any of those kinds of phrases that you get from these leftist noughts. Ask your kids if they're hearing phrases like that because kids will tell you stuff if you ask the problem is, a lot of the kids will not come back until mom and dad unless they are asked so you gotta stay on top of it, especially now that we know the FBI's after you while they can't be after millions of people as we outnumber them.

But how outrageous that this is the situation owned by the way, I'm not gonna go into detail on this, but the last one I have. This is unbelievable. Clark County school district in Las Vegas which is the fifth largest school district in the country is recommending the reappointment of a controversy old sexologist to sit on a committee choosing sex ed curricula for the K-12 students at Akkad and this is from the Nevada family alliance. I thank them for alert.

I can't go into details because it's too nasty, but this is what's going on in the schools so we gotta stay alert, by the way, before I run out of time. Thank you guys so much.

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The number 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 if you'd like to gift. Thank you so much. Will be back this archived broadcast of Janet today is brought to you by Hartford, Lebanon, God is using hard for Lebanon to bring practical assistance and the gospel to the stricken refugee families in Lebanon for a gift of $116 you can give a child in his family survival essentials for four months and the hope of Jesus Christ which lasts forever. Call now 888-247-5499 888-247-5499 or there's a banner to click@janet.com Job River today and here's your host Joe never look back.

Thomas Jefferson once that our legislators are not sufficiently apprised of the rightful limits of their power that their true offices to declare in an worse only our natural rights and duties and to take none of them.

Thomas well.

If only that were the extent of government today, but that train seems to have left the station a long time ago far from a small limited government. What we have now, obviously, is a big bloated government and worse, we have our fair share of Americans expect that the government is there to solve our problems so therefore if there's a problem look to the government to step in and do something. But how does that work outs and how many people who think that way actually examine government's track record on solving problems. Also, what are we to think about the political Malays that is set in as Americans are steadily losing trust in big government were to talk about it today with Dr. James Payne. He taught political science for nearly 20 years at schools, including Yale and Texas A&M is the author of 21 books, including his latest, the big government we love to hate exploring the roots of political Malays and Dr. Payne. Thank you so much for being with us pleasure to join you Janet, thank you.

You think America has morphed from the concept of limited government to the government we have today which is sprawling and huge and waste all kinds of money. What has changed. Do you think in our thinking to bring about the size of government that we have now.

Question one of the biggest factors is growth of media and information in the days were talking 200 years ago there weren't even newspapers so that people didn't know much about what was going on anywhere so that didn't form opinions about what to do about faraway things. I just didn't have opinions about poverty and equality and things like that so it's I think a big factor in this process is the growth of media that enables us to form opinions about faraway things we really don't understand very much about but still we form a fairly definite opinion about it and and then say, well, if it's a wrong out there, then government should fix it right. While there are a lot of people who think that way.

And yet we have a tradition in America of localism that really there's been this understanding that if you have a government that is close by and more accountable to the people right in front of them that that's a better way to run government that seems now to be getting lost in the shuffle a little bit. Yes, yes, it kind of surprising I think one factor is that size tends to impress human beings do you like my dad works for a big company that's supposed to be more impressive than my dad worked for grocery store so the date of the bigger and far away. Interestingly enough, something that's far away you are to be more skeptical of something faraway. Sometimes humans are.

A lot of times there is a tending to trust a faraway entity that they really don't know anything about were so low. Their local government. They know the old people and they know the kids are down at the bar and so forth. Yeah exactly will so now we when you talking about some of these cultural presumptions that drives the growth of government. What are those presumptions I mean this idea that people believe big government can solve their problems, but they don't really look into it very much what what you think is going on in people's heads. Well the right faces of the book is that for thousands of years really just about all human beings have assumed that government can fix anything and you know where that assumption comes from is pretty deep but one of them is that government is handling the guns in force, so that if you have guns in your hand and you assume if your have a good intention. You are to be able to impose this good intention. It should be simple that especially one element of probably 20 different themes that gets into this presumption that government can solve home and by the way, I don't want to contradict you, but Jefferson shared this Jefferson is the father of American public education tax funded education at every level from primary schools to universities and he worked like crazy to get government tax funded education going at all the different levels. He believed that he may say I've quoted him saying you question will think about government. But when it came to his own private project. If I want this thing done. He had a great faith that government could do it well.

It perfectly and efficiently know that you brought that up. Actually, because that's true of other founders as well.

Even though the you know believed in the limited government concept. There were some contradictions and some hypocrisy to like you just mentioned that while hypocrisy is a strong word. I don't think they were aware of it. Yes I I cited like George Washington and his declaration message should congressional message urging all sorts of government programs. It wasn't followed because there weren't any resources at the time that he wanted like a federal national tax funded university, and he wanted agricultural subsidies and he wanted all kinds of boards that were going to collect scientific data and published them, and so forth.

Hit a great faith that anything that he had in mind government would just do it. Okay well it's interesting. I was looking at quote here from James Madison in Federalist number 47, he wrote the accumulation of powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary in the same hands may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. Would Madison have taken issue. Do you think with the sprawling degree to which our government. His innovative and did I mean it will not ended for good hopefully. But where we are now do you think that that would be something he would be horrified by where they're commanding the old meaning of tyranny was government was actually going around and arresting people didn't like that was freedom of expression so that if you said that the king is no good or stupid your head would be cut off. That was the feeling of tyranny. At that time and they were just emerging from that the use of force to repress expression really freedom of speech, press, and so forth so that the birth United States did correspond with the birth of the idea that there ought to be freedom of expression. Government can't go around shouldn't go around killing people that say things the rulers disagree with and that was the repression or oppression that that they were thinking of and worried about and they were correct at a a pluralistic government with divided powers couldn't be so effective in repressing freedom of speech freedom of press and repressing the opposition people you know you could have two part could not two parties. Neil showed that watch Michael politically but the whole idea of Ken government solve problems in government to education, medical care, disaster relief, anything like that they were unaware of, that is an issue when were the other I say it that early time those issues weren't really coming to the four separate Jefferson.

He was just beginning to get aware of education as an issue or problem and issues. He thought of it. He said oh government can fix it, but like take disaster relief.

You didn't know if there was a flood in North Carolina you didn't know about this in Washington for weeks right so you wouldn't have a program for disaster relief the way we now do.

It was that she weren't aware of those problems right so in other words, going back to your idea before the media has had an awful lot to do with this. The fact that you can know about things instantly and also it would seem have instant ability to express it in instant ability to contact people in Washington all that. It seems changes the flow of our expectations in many respects, it seemed well because of aircraft or introduce a minute. It our probably don't be careful not to blame government because it's what we do and what happens is when we hear about some faraway thing little bit for an employer is fired from employee in a way that doesn't look very nice. We form an opinion both about that and then we form an opinion about all unknown cases like it and then we figure out to be a law that that's the super official thing we ought to have more humility about our ability to understand large faraway problem well today what were going to pick up the discussion after the spring Dr. James Payne with us. The government we love to hate say with us or listening to Jennifer today for those of us who live in America.

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Please call now the number is 888-247-5499 that number again 888-247-5499. Thank you and God bless you for your generosity. You're listening to you today though so good at it with the same great-aunt with us. Dr. James Payne, author of the big government we love to hate. Where do you think most Americans are right now Dr. pain on this issue of hating government or hating big government in particular welding the phrase love to hate it. I think describes the main stream idea that is the facing government which, as you mention this is been reported care pretty carefully for the last 70 years has definitely declined US could you trust government to do the right thing type of question today. Overwhelming majorities will say no I don't but the fascinating thing is that this has not led to a feeling of well then we ought to use government requests.

That's the irrationality it's like there's a restaurant and you go you say doesn't serve good food is food tasty and nutritious.

Say no and then you say hey let's go to that restaurant tomorrow if it doesn't make sense but that's that's the that's what I call the political malaise hit the love-hate thing in the analogy is like with an abusive may type the situation make a woman comes into the psychiatrist's office interfaces bloodiest his schedule, maybe you should leave this drunken husband that's coming on beating you up and she says I can.

I can there's a deeper faith there that still operating.

And now it's being it's gradually being eroded in the size of the liberty what we call the libertarian movement is a measure of this of the libertarians are are those explained in the book who have actually overcome this underlying unquestioning faith in government but there's still very small. It still only 25% of the population that really on the next problem will say no, no, don't turn to government well and even conservatives. I can say this is a conservative myself. I think there's always been this discussion of why do we always look to government instead of ourselves to solve our own problems. Isn't that what made America great in the first place.

Was this ability to work hard and save and create a life for yourself and achieve the American dream.

The more you get government involved, the less autonomy you have for yourself and that kind of undoes the entire scheme of America, it would say absolutely and secondly second thing in the description to strength of the Christian addition that you not only help yourself but to help your neighbor. Of course, and you emphasize the word neighbor is somebody who's actually you see and know so you form your little groups to take care of whatever it is, drug addiction or homelessness, hunger and but you know who they are what they need, whether they really need what you and that used to be very prominent, very powerful lunch with de Tocqueville pointed out about the amazing ability of Americans to form these little local voluntary volunteer groups – unfortunately the growth of government, we now say all governments taking care that I don't have to worry about my neighbor anymore. He said it is an and it's interesting when you are saying that people are beginning to say more and more I don't trust governments. But do you want government to do less will know not necessarily in how that's that doesn't go together.

Is it because they can't see an alternative that in. In fact, this idea that we should be solving our problems to the extent that we can without the intrusion of government that that's not an option anymore.

Do people just not think of that right right. Definitely they don't. I mean the data that show that if you go back and look hundred years ago men's vitality of what we would call the private sector, voluntary sector, but that's all been forgotten. Now Benjamin Franklin every everything government now does like libraries, it's tax funded libraries everywhere, but that was all voluntary private philanthropic.

It worked fine yeah it's well and we got libraries now is drag queens reading stories to three-year-old son not sure that that's really worked great in a lot of cases, but that boy does that if that were a private volunteer you could let the people it wanted back to happen. Donate to it that have been you and I wouldn't donate to it. We would donate to another that was following her policy but once you get it hooked onto the taxes. You can unhook it. They get very, among other things very wasteful and inefficient, but they cannot also weird programs and really nobody wanted except maybe one bureaucrat or somebody yeah, but you're right, you can't. Once you go down that road you can never get it back. You go to the original purpose of government. I think what Scripture says about the other purpose of government is to punish evil in some cases restrain evil people have talked to, for example, I know in my circles about what we should just have the federal government dealing with the military and the infrastructure the roads.

The bridges things like that and everything else, forget it, but, but what you do when people have different notions of what government ought to be. Here we have this Marxist drain that keeps growing and growing and growing in America anything.

How does this ever work itself out in the end will I think even your praise evil might go a little too far because any you can see a wrong, something that people are not healthy and call it a needle and then as soon as you see that well governments postfix evil than your back to government again right of the legal definition and then you can have the twisting of the word for sure well but a good example of this is prohibition.

I don't know whether where you stand on this, but this was a sort of right wing program in which it was considered trying was evil and certainly they are in many respects, alcoholism, terrible problem so you thought you could bring in government to fix it and they did and that was a lot of Christian conservatives were pushing on the and we ran the experiment and was considered to be a disaster. But somehow people don't learn from experience at the next evil they see SLK let's have another government program is outlawed yet in force and so forth. What I think when I'm talking evil in that context, it's for example you know when somebody is burglarizing your home you are you can call police if somebody murder someone in your family. You have a jury trial as you want. Here is the use of the initiation of force force burglars breaking under building murder and so forth, but all the other wrong things that people do they sing bad songs or whatever that you and I may say hey that's stupid or that's destructive. That's not a use of force. Okay so right if you if you kept it to that. That's the libertarian position government should oppose the initiation of force by private parties and foreign parties foreign invaders. But some other activity like children are getting the schooling that you think they need to use a portion there so you shouldn't be trying to use government spores to exit well and again were getting back into the discussion about politics being downstream of culture and all those discussions that have come up in recent years, but going back to the issue of government being big is it the case that you can never really winding down.

Once you are so bloated like our government is bloated.

I mean, what are your hopes forever being able to curtail the power of government.

Once it's to this point.

I mean you have the news reports this week.

For example, talking about the fact that Medicare is going broke and Social Security is going broke earlier than they had earlier in a projected initially what you do when it's so big. How do you dismantle it there too many people who are counting on that size of government to keep them employed and said well that is so if you just want to cut back on it I mean businesses go out of business and their employees lose their jobs. Yes, this can happen.

You can scale things back and and by the way it has happened here and there.

For instance, airline prices, tickets and so forth were regulated heavily regulated alike up to the 1970s and there was removed to deregulated that benefited everybody rights so we can take this program without program and see hey, this is not wise, and so forth and scale it back, but for the time being there such a surgeon occurs recently with the whole body.

Think I think were were in a tent and temporary. This may be the last big search of government and was created only by the hash was created by the resistance to trump.

Unfortunately this was a trumpet been a Reagan for example, then we would be moving in another direction, but will three reaction against trump being so talking about his policies. It's just that his personality was in sensitivity is how he expressed himself with so forth. Well, this is yeah no enemies that it brought Biden for was a lot of propaganda to his lot. I understand that Deborah Pres. trump was not the favorite of everybody. But yeah they were in a mess for sure.

The big government we love to hate Dr. James Payne, thank you so much Dr. Payne for being here appreciate your time been a pleasure to write you. Take care God bless you and thanks for joining us here in Janet for today. We will see you next


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