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Gary Habermas (Life After Death)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
May 17, 2021 4:30 am

Gary Habermas (Life After Death)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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May 17, 2021 4:30 am

Atheists and skeptics today reject the concept of life after death. But what is the evidence for it? And how does the resurrection of Jesus change everything? Dr. Gary Habermas, Distinguished Professor of Apologetics and Philosophy at Liberty University, joins me to talk about it and his book, “Beyond Death.” That and more on Monday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet is our confidence is in Christ alone, based on their examination of 2000 people who had suffered cardiac arrest. The scientists found that nearly 40% of people describe some kind of awareness during the time when they were clinically dead before their hearts were restarted. This left them considering the question is this.

The first hint of hard evidence that proves life after death, while for Christians, the evidence for life after death did need to come from a study the Bible clearly tells us that due to the fall of man. The wages of sin is death, that in Adam all die, and that there is a heaven and a hell and a coming judgment but we also know the good news of a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, whose work on the cross and his resurrection defeated death for us.

What is the evidence, though for immortality, especially as we are confronted by atheists or by evolutionists who hold that the human being is only physical and has no soul, and that there is no life after death that's already talking about today with Dr. Gary Habermas. He is distinguished Prof. and chair of the Department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University and author of the book is written with Dr. J.P. Moreland is called beyond death, exploring the evidence for immortality and it's wonderful to have you here, Dr. Hammer mass. How are you today world to figure worry about the great topic I love this topic and I know you wrote the book quite a while ago but I unearthed it because I said this is such a great topic, we cannot explore this with people because we do see these things in the news don't way about why. Well, maybe there really is some life after death where things stand now, would you say on the topic since you wrote the book will yard up with a long time ago you only form of AppleCare bobbin 9B who works for you so it's what we had about 100 pages to be beyond up book so immovable but updated but ever since that time. 15 more years things have continued to go to Brooks about study that you referred to was quite recent and it was the people of all four were major researchers.

So it was important.

The only knock on the study from all from a critical viewpoint pretty much is that man you only have a few people who control type testimonies.

The basalt brings up a good leader.

We count accurately but you know to be. Nobody should be having any of those experiences that there is no afterlife.

So I think was a very significant study due to its interesting and I know one of the things you cover in the book which I want to get into a little bit. Is this near-death experience phenomenon which we see a lot more of since you wrote the book*is an opening thought why you think there is so much skepticism over the issue of immortality. Clearly there are a lot of religions out there and a lot of cults and a lot of ideologies that have to do with where we go when we die.

That what you think. We do see as much skepticism as we do over whether or not there is life after death.

Well more than one reason. One of course is what you start your program since since Christian and model religions in general Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the part about the major expressions of religion throughout the world. I think a lot of people do make the move that if you're telling me there's an afterlife. Okay the next thing out of your mouth is going to be your right and I'm wrong. My life change or bring about something scary to bother me said no.

So I think of the number goes what Dr. did. What about judgment and don't tell me you're right, one baby.

Another reason is because you are still small. There's a growing number of law. Folks who call themselves skeptics, secular safe use agnostics and in the West that's been growing significantly. I don't think it's a predominant worldview by a long margin, but I got bogged people, but probably the you think you're right. Go to some kind of a comeback like that you probably the main thing I do, you know, teaching philosophy, I was good friends with thought. Anthony flew the famous APS when he was alive but he was one of the few people I knew who would say yeah people think I came to believe in God because I'm an old man I'm an atheist us about time I get my life right. He said, but you know to be an afterlife, he would say that regularly imprint other places. So some people just don't want to live in the war after death. The that's got to be in there to wow that is quite significant. Any really touches on a good point, which is, there is an expectation I think for a lot of us. Christopher Hitchens is a good example of these kind of cancer he better accept Christ now but I mean that that shows how firmly cemented a lot of these darkened hearts are they just will not accept the truth that Christ is God and and don't even want to start with the premises that might get you there right if you start a little bit you do your have the Romans Road.

According to what you some people cannot come true.

True, that's what we answer is what you see. It's rational to believe in the concept of life after death. Well, it's rational for number of reasons you mentioned Scripture you are properly broadcast and certainly for Christians who take Scripture to be true, and even to the Old Testament alone and others have texts of their comforter. Without that Monday night I pick up some of my favorite books is like Philippians 1 2123 for me to live is Christ, the die is gain. I tell people I put a lot of sermons on the live note is Christ is a major sermon topic but not the diet gate be no tubers labor pulses. I don't know what I'd rather do stay here in and have some major ministry or or go to be with Christ.

He says in the Greek it's kind of a double lymphatic positive sword like it sometimes to translate like this before you die and be with Christ better, far better in I think that that's very comfortable comforting you got Scripture for those who want reasons I would of course with all the research I've done my life.

I think the regular treatment by far the best evidence for the Christian, and I would even said the resurrection should be considered the best evidence if the person is a nonbeliever, but for me, near-death experiences are up-and-coming were way past that I've been studying near-death experience more than probably any topic except the resurrection of reading my first piece of literature 1971 in 1972 so it's been going on for long time and in a scientist continually, holding the research parameters. Some are tighter like you just mentioned in England and some are not so tight their testimonies and I'm told you what when you interview a lot of people who've gone through these things. After a while to be careful my words.

I want to be blamed on think universe underwear off on your you think while this is why people to three and five in a thousand years ago would say something there because when my grandmother died she And very powerfully without the evidence. But we happy evidential ones where people report things that they could not have seen in the position they win, and that are subsequently verified and sometimes ice. They told the story right on the spot and saw verified right away from people who will present they were not unconsciously.

The heart had arrested. There was no heartbeat. And we know now relatively new information. We know now that if you have a cardiac arrest not with me or something. But if you have cardiac arrest arrest. You are you are without brainwave measurable brainwave comeback talking about.

Beyond just exploring the evidence for immortality.

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These testimonies about floating around the room and seeing the doctors honey what are we to make of this. Biblically, just the testimonies that are so strange to us right. Maybe we don't hear them somewhat. Let me know there's all kinds of books available will be called subjective by people and things, but their disinterested folks are interested in and testimonies. There are number books are but a few of myself of books that were published in the 1900s and you know collected experiences so strange I've got probably 1/2 dozen stories of my own family called this portion of that person and probably there were more of them when what will you gotta pro and con, you got more use today because we couldn't stand wives measure things better, but many who died today are a Bible reading one book years ago that very few people died today for drug consumption for pain relief for their sleeping over the kind of out of it and is aware words 100 years ago people might be younger and more aware or not the same kind of drugs and so the stories were common and many have pointed out that they think there are near-death experiences reported. Even Scripture, at least if not near-death experiences, near-death phenomena, things just like it and was much more common in cultures not to even I think it probably would be questioned in many of the ancient cultures course when you look at some of the skeptics. Their answer to this would be oh you had some wacky things happening in your brain you will experience hallucinations.

What is your response to that when they question the concept of life after death, merely when you hear these sorts of testimonies.

Well, I made a reference to study this material since 71, 72, which you know is is about 45 years worth of information, and in the old days, and if you look at their testimony from way before that we largely were depended on nice stories, some of which obviously changed the skies of this lady's life and so we say maybe do something to this project chronicles the back of my will or the evidence, even civil cases. By the way, there are some highly evidential cases from the court record old days, but at present I think the best way to look at this. If you're looking for evidence is left saw a picture, a case now you want to people who a lot of them to get an ideal one but let's say a case where a person arrest as a cardiac arrest in a room without windows or where the windows are certainly covered and there are nowhere near the window. They can see outside, and they have the situation. We know you called 911 and you're waiting in you know that this person has been in that situation for X a lot of time they're not up and standing at the window when they come to when they're resuscitated.

They report something that happened down the street on top of the building in another room to the hospital floor could be the relatives of their people. Near-death experience testimony offered are drawn to their family members wherever they are. They might say.

I looked in on X, Y, and Z while they sat in the waiting room hundred feet away, or in a different floor and they can reproduce conversations they couldn't tell what color close people even though they hadn't seen them for three, four, five, six days, and these things can be verified or falsified. Some of them get very specific in the same earlier we know from the latest evidence that you if someone has a cardiac arrest heart is not working as far as we know it's not working within 10 to 30 seconds. Their upper brain activity that part of your brain for what you have your most meaningful experiences is also not working in terms of what our machines can tell us some script. You can always say oh yeah but you can have all kinds of brain activity with the brain not working. They know that you know it's not verifiable. But even so it's hard to imagine that the most meaningful event to Have your life for many people many years that this is but for them to say right. The most meaningful event.

The person ever had their life happened while they had no measurable upper brain activity but of course talk. I'm going to bring is not measurable upper brain activity. So why do you expect the most meaningful thing to happen to you with evidence go on when your brain is at best. At its lowest possible and very subjective reporting an object so I've got a lot of dialogues with people, talk shows and live debates in and it this is very hard evidence for naturalists to explain away.

Now what does that tell us that when we you know accepting that these testimonies are accurate so far as a person knows what does it say about what happens to you after you die me. There are some who, for example, will point out so-and-so saw light and felt warmth and all the rest, but since I wasn't a Christian so it wasn't as if that person was about to enter heaven and what is that say about the intermediate state. Once you die before you know we know were awaiting the general resurrection when we get our bodies back. What should we understand about you know the that the biblical view of the intermediate state and taking those testimonies into account great? I tell people I think the follow-up worldview questions raised more difficult of the evidence question questions. We kinda got the place where the appetence just seems kind of solid right now. Now the evidence will talk about minutes and very few cases hours after a person is declared dead were not talking about what happens a week later two weeks later for millennia later. So it's really hard to build up know what Christians will call some kind of eschatology know what happened 15 minutes after we died, things well the date I'm reporting might be seven minutes after that's it. One more thing is that I told I tell people all the time.

I wrote an article years ago Christian Journal asked me to do an article on evidence outdone a lot of articles on these, but this group. I was getting somebody questions on the worldview questions that you're asking. I said to them, instead of doing evidence. What we do some of the worldview concerns like some people seem to have judgment, how come they don't see how Cabeza God is accepting of them and some from so they said yeah," I wrote the follow-up and and here's here's the point about the evidential case, it would be pretty hard to prove that indeed use conflict with Scripture for a couple reasons one I just gave it's only a very short time after that. Secondly, the person is near death: NDE's top post up experiences so if their body is not finally dad then we can expect that they have gone to wherever it is there going to go when they die because not over yet. So if there are hovering around their body and their body hasn't totally expired that you can expect them to of seen like a visitor. If you took your family and you went to this the city border of New York City and you came home and said Empire State building that's 30 I went there I can see it and somebody would say where were you standing and you told him them in a local resident would say you're pretty silly you you can't see the Empire State building from where you are standing here and see it was couldn't go there and I think that's a real simple response to these NDE's. If you don't go were the things in question are how can you say there are no such things. But here's the big the most important response when you ask about evidence in a dialogue about this. I probably I've already done more talking in this interview that I almost always do about the use of these accounts that everybody has no family or that are so many do work that go back 100 years or 200 years Plato reports near-death experiences hundreds of years before Jesus. So you I don't talk about those a little because they're not evidential. If you asked me about what evidential cases.

There are which we started to get to follow but later the evidential case is almost without exception, there is worldly cases of the famous cases concerning tour three tennis shoes on the roof of the hospital that's described later. What you're mother was saying in the waiting room two floors away what somebody was dressed with some really amazing minor characteristics that could be confirmed but that this rightly so.

If the person says will then I don't know. Five minutes later. 10 minutes later I was whisked away to heaven. I'm not a believer but but I thought God. I'm sure God will tell you that no one was God's smiling and what you do have a lot of issues were to die right back into it. We connection this break Dr. Gary Hammer mastering us to talk about exploring the evidence for immortality will come back this archived broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you by pre-born for $140 you can provide ultrasounds to five women in crisis pregnancies. Call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 or Janet and here's your host for today talking about the evidence for immortality. It is a question that all of us must face even if we are not Christians.

And yet, as Christians, we can be confident that there is life after death, heaven and hell were talking it over with Dr. Gary Hammer mass author of beyond death, so documents you made a great point. We were talking a little bit about these near-death experiences that people have an reporting back and you made a wonderful point which is the testimonies often are. I saw my dad in the waiting room, I saw the doctor wearing such and such, but they're not necessarily reports of I saw happening.

I saw the heavenly city.

I saw Jesus you do sometimes hear that, but generally speaking that's why these NDE's really have to be taken for what they are right and at all times. The deeper the experience go all the order quote more dead somebody is, the longer it goes on is when they have these extended experiences, but but there are plenty of these heavenly ones by the way, for the record, there are more help cases how these are usually acknowledged, the effect I read an affair many times in popular pop patient to read about one person would tell one here, one there but in a recent study I saw for girls.

It was like 18 or 19% cases involve some hello shortly negative, judgmental situation, but the point I was making to me. It's irrelevant whether people say they want to have an or not, or even hell. Because the sender before the break, that there are a lot of issues here. When a person says, for example, I was standing before Jesus and he was for accepting Sable what did Jesus look like will look like anything was like a light and I was absorbed in.

This was taken in the log surrounded by this like I knew there was a human. I knew there was a person I knew there was a presence and release your person per se. I would just develop with this runnable log.

A personal love and you say okay you didn't see anybody on the person that about himself. No. And so, what Christians call Jesus choose Michael to call an angel, and so on. So right away you start thinking while there are some different interpretations.

Obese people walk around heaven with with identification bracelets on them.

They said you had a wonderful experience while that's great I mean I'm happy for you but but that that's not a whole lot more valuable evidentially then you tell them you had a dream last night we went to heaven. I probe a little bit because I wondered if it was old that was more than dream up your physical issues of something that happened during the night, but for the most part there's no backup at that point.

So get your right, I can tell you with the guy down the hallway said I can tape at the tennis shoe on the roof and somewhere cases.

I can tell you about being attracted to my family members 1 mile away from the hospital. I mean, there are cases like that but they're all this worldly so when I often say it the way we say in the book is to be near-death experiences are not worldview determining experiences except in the sense they're all there only worldview which, in the sense that they argue that naturalism is wrong. There's more to the world natural portion alone. There is a supernatural in there very much seems to be an afterlife.

Now I imagine you'd be standing align with a lot of people in dues. Muslims choose certain cards, a Buddhist, many folk religion.

They'd all be saying amen that's right afterlife. We all believe in this, all the religions would have that belief against nonreligious worldview. But the reason that's important.

Besides the more comforting personal old. Yes, there is something beyond the other reason, the philosophical reason this is important is because naturalism is the natural world is all arrears and would include like atheism and agnosticism skepticism song of any anything supernatural. They just coming next to God's existence. I think God's existence in the afterlife are maybe the two most important documents that they do not want to be true and this is one important course not. Some reasons really think God exists. You want to punch with God, an afterlife coding and I think that's where it these are valuable. That plus the comforting counseling kind of aspect, but not to be talking about the furniture so to speak of heaven and hell because I can't. Frankly, I can't tell the warm fuzzies part of the experience from your own personal beliefs in many cases, and how I know was the subject of I mean if you're Christian you give me a really Christian account. I can hope it's true.

But I know it's true that the person is all because the Bible says so well now they're pumping to a different kind of response that the NDE does not tell me about the furniture of heaven, and says all you know you're you're pretty cocky about this, but I'll bet you're very happy when people go to hell larger than the say look for Saul. I'm not happy. And secondly, the knife cuts both ways I've said many many times. The evidence for how experience is no way dear in the evidence for experience for so much. Yeah, God was already let me but he said it wasn't my time yet you set me back okay well that's your subjective experience.

Maybe so, maybe no. But, but there's no evidence, neither can I use these accounts to talk about the nature of hell no you can't. And that's an excellent point. We can't use subjective experience to build our theology upon you. We have to go to the Bible so this goes to the other point you talk about one of the other points that you make in the book, which is the resurrection of Jesus is such important empirical evidence for the afterlife or the concept of life after death. Now people will say when Jesus came back from the dead after three days of being dad but here he was on earth, so how can you Christians say that's evidence of life after death.

Jesus just came back and then you claiming went up into heaven, and ascended into heaven, but how do you use the resurrection of Jesus to make the case for immortality and existence of heaven and hell you were implying there, I think the evidence for the resurrection is better than direct experiences, especially in the worldview aspects the what is this mean okay now what kind of questions and the reason is twofold.

At least I call apologetics to teach only PR PhD level and I tell my my students who I hope are going to be professors or lease faster someday and you know this is important data for two reasons. One, the disciples saw the resurrected Jesus. Let's unpack this will what was an appearance of the risen Jesus, I said you know, here's the website for second graders. I would say would Jesus's disciples saw him perform magical happy they were to see their best friend. But when they saw him.

If I were to to find this a really popular terms they saw walking, talking, eternal life when they saw Jesus they saw a visitor from beyond this world. They saw somebody who'd gone where no man had gone before they saw somebody who had died and been there and come back suppressible.

This is somebody experience after 15 minutes. This is more likely to her three minutes. This is the person who is just not sure what they're talking about person data here and that's what look at my hands and my feet mean just because arts are personal based see this person they couldn't talk to him and be way better than talking to Lazarus. If you want to lazar's friends because last did die and the only the firstfruits of the New Testament says in a resurrection about second reason besides the direct here years walking talking pro-life. The second point is Jesus claim to be the son of God. He claimed that the bunch of different ways. If he were a false prophet is running VAT's future pass.

I said I have a massive, sessile, lousy timing, but we gotta go to Dr. Gary after mass beyond the return on Jennifer today don't go away and he was in a bad relationship when she found out she was pregnant. Her boyfriend told her to get an abortion which he seriously considered the question and he went to a pre-born center in need of guidance. They honestly were able to pay every fear that he's okay. He's here. Pre-born clinics, introduce moms in crisis to their babies through ultrasound while providing hope, love, and the gospel of Jesus Christ in action would you join pre-born in helping more moms choose life for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help rescue five babies from abortion and this monster a match are tax deductible gift is doubled to donate call now 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 855-402-2229 or there's a pre-born banner to

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That's why Mercy ship Springs volunteer support on hospital ship, the Africa Mercy to give the world's forgotten for the free medical care they need. We have an immediate need for registered nurses, especially with specialty as a volunteer nurse. You will just give life altering healthcare will receive so much in return. Experience home and make a difference in the lives of those who have virtually no access to medical aid. Everything he said there are already here. For the second time. What are you waiting for show mercy to someone today. I get more information and learn how to apply by visiting Mercy versus Mercy you are listening to you today talking with Dr. Gary after mass about his book beyond death, exploring the evidence for immortality and we are talking about some of the reasons that the resurrection of Jesus Christ points to life after death. Some wonderful things. First, about your talking about when the disciples saw Jesus after he had risen from the dead, they were dealing with walking, talking, eternal life, and she said, and the second reason you are getting into before we had to go to the break.

What was the second reason most language is simply they saw eternal life. They saw heaven enter their world when he appeared okay but the upper that's the direct reason for second one is in direct around the block reason goes like this, Jesus made very special claims about himself that we assume that all the major founders of all the major world religions said they were God in some form you would use that is typical of everybody and actually no other major founder of our mutual religion and God, at least in any kind of books that are in the world anytime relatively close to their life. Let me know your source for Buddhism as one Buddhist scholar troublesome salt 600 and 900 years after Bhutto made the comment. It's not very reliable and real." A more reliable material. Jesus said he was the son of God in some sense now he's Jewish and Jewish know you and me 18 personal protection future and their walk about it is a false prophet. They were to be stoned.

They are definitely not of God's army 13 five Earlier.

A person who forms miracles and even if he performed miracles. Now worship other gods. I don't care for both bonuses. No problem because petite people follow you to be evidence plus the correct message. So Jesus is on the son of God what to do with me determines where you spend eternity is most important teaching with the kingdom of God and how to get there. The keys the you know pass to get you into the kingdom of Christ without. I can't think of a founder for mutual religion who would be more in violation of the little false prophet and an obscuring and way worse during God's commands, but slaughtering them more candidate for heretic. There would be somebody who makes these two central claims that they are in some sense divine, and secondly, what you do with them determines where you spend eternity, or are subject today so if you submit your man and heretic i.e. is wrong, he can't raise himself from the dead. Gotta be worked upon his body's gotta be fixed raise something by somebody else. He said it would be his father.

You could object you can settle believe his father. I'm sorry that how you explain the resurrection.

We have to get a coherent explanation in the most sense is that Jesus saying his father would raise him up. By the way, that's another fact he predicted ahead of time effectively predict the resurrection and even critical scholars allow this, by the way, and effectively predicted means he's in control the situation. If you know something ahead of time that means is a plan's that means something is going on that you have the troop will be do so. If you, the son of God. If you think he's thinking that if he notices that arise that happens around the block argument verse one says here I am, handle be a spirit is not flushable. Have a love that works for me. The King James translation Luke 24 to see Jesus you have in the second one is the around the block. The resurrection indicated that Jesus's teachings were true, this central teaching have to do with who he is and what the keys to the kingdom consist of, and if you going those keys to your detriment hotel clerk says here's the key to your room and you say no thank you.

Without it, you don't text to your detriment.

The person probably knows what they're talking about noodle you never know this, for perhaps while Jesus is been there is bit of the town before, so I think both those reasons that they confronted heaven. Secondly, how else can we explain the confirmation of heaven told me far more than an NDE of the let's be generous and say five minutes that says something about human spirit lives beyond the death of the body for a few minutes anyway. But Jesus tells us what's coming down in the future, just like you told us about his own resurrection report happened so I think the kind of worldview argument that ties the resurrection uses teachings by far the best roadmap of the upper that is great those great and I had not thought about it like that before the indirect reason but you're absolutely right, and I'm curious to ask you had mentioned Anthony flew the former talking a little bit touching a little bit on the new atheists when you talk about Jesus, when you specifically bring it down to the person of Jesus Christ usually react to that today try to change the subject and go back to naturalistic perspective and keep it in that realm or are they willing. Generally speaking, in your dealings with them to talk about Jesus and deal with probably the most strong evidence of all for the afterlife will talk to. I have years ago I was challenged by fellow and I was at a conference. I would like your net and it was administered he been encouraged to work and the background that he asked me how could apologetics be more relevant to people's lives and not just build Christians up, reach out to nonbelievers and he mentioned a few friends of mine. You go Craig and J.P. Moreland. How many times do you lead people to Christ. During these debates. I know we have standard answers that, stop. You know it's kind of a, it's kind of the were in town or not accountable. Gotta turn these people over local Christian group that works with them and were not allowed to see them pick up the pieces and he said maybe thought the call, you said that because you guys have one night stands.

While that for a while, but you know what you think about it because we have one night stands with their very briefly and I got thinking about how can I make this more prominent in people's lives. And since that time I really saw about unbelievers were in a couple journal articles on Jesus's use of friendship with unbelievers, walk a mile in their shoes. That's the kind of person I talked to them. It's the angry bitter something with Donna my life. Somebody died.

Something nasty happened, the harder talk to but I man God breaks through in those cases to of seen with my own eyes, but the cases where you have people who are interested. If you can present data there listening this kind of evidence goes over very very well and I often use near-death experiences. It's not is not as good for the question as heaven. I mean at the resurrection vis--vis heaven, but NDE's are icebreakers because when people say now I don't care what your evidence is no evidence for that. So stop your perspective. All Americans are stupid that you can look at surveys like Americans with with graduate degrees, things like that was one of them. When people say they believe in an afterlife and they ask you why these are very important of them stupid for believing in this. So how can you can simply say no, no, no how to do with the evidence so it for the special case for the person. This is, I'm not in the resurrection I don't believe it. Would you believe in, in these do you think these could have it evident that all yeah but not the drug little kind okay will look talk about that but there be a rifle and maybe if you got something to tell me but but it's after the icebreaker now.

The person's gotta deal with the evidence for one, Jesus Christ, who, frankly, in this world of toleration presents data for his claims are not present in the other religion back to me. It's crazy when people other religions even say in their publications that we don't have the kind of day that the Christians have amazing, that is amazing and you know one of the one of the quotes that came to my mind's mere Christianity was the one CS Lewis had about creatures are not born with desires and less satisfaction for those desires exist and insights the baby feels hungry. While there such a thing is food the duckling wants to swim. There is such thing as water, and I wonder if that's not also an issue mentioned in the book something that you can point people to do and say.

The very fact that you want something more you want something more than just a psyche email that you're earning points to a God who created you, and there is a satisfaction for that yearning that will moan off a lot has a fantastic book called having a heart longing and it's great on that condo whole kind of inspired by the idea of CS Lewis's concept of joy and that I think therefore people come back if you got something to offer that they've not studied, maybe they're not ready to hear about the red letter versus the Bible just yet, but if you want to give them hope for the future. You know that there often a lot more willing to start with that start because that Place we had absolutely what you got to get a hold of the book. It's called beyond death, exploring the evidence for immortality.

Dr. Gary have amassed joining us so wonderful to talk to get Dr. Everest. Thank you so much for being with us.

Great question, I love talking to you. Thanks a lot. We really appreciate you and thanks for listening today to Tina for today.

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