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Stephen Meyer (Intelligent Design/Creationism)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
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April 13, 2021 4:00 am

Stephen Meyer (Intelligent Design/Creationism)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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April 13, 2021 4:00 am

The Supreme Court has suspended California's COVID-19 restrictions on in-home religious gatherings, even as protesters rally around a now fenced-in, police-swarmed GraceLife Church in Canada. We'll talk about it. Plus: Scientific data is showing not just the existence of a vague intelligent designer, but the existence of a personal God. Dr. Stephen Meyer, director of the Center for Science and Culture at the Discovery Institute and author of the book, "Return of the God Hypothesis," joins me on Tuesday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY

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This Janet Mefford today podcast is brought to you in part by Bible league international. We want to send 1500 Bibles to Africa through Bible leaves open the floodgates Bibles for Africa campaign five dollars cents one Bible and a matching grant will double your gift call now 800 yes word 800 yes word is generated wherever our confidence is in Christ alone is the word of God says that I sort of know so much for joining and centuries optical intellectuals have been saying that science and a belief in God are poor. In fact, that those two things actually cannot reconcile. Now we know as Christians that this isn't true. But what's interesting is to take note of the scientific discoveries that are showing the designing intelligence behind life in the universe and is my next guest discovered the data support not just the existence of a vague, intelligent designer, but actually the existence of a personal God, it's so fascinating were to talk about it today with Dr. Stephen Meyer, philosopher of science and director of the Center for science and culture at the Discovery Institute in Seattle is author the best selling book, signature in the cell and Darwin's doubt and is now out with another great book called return of the God hypothesis so good to have you with us. Dr. Meyer how you doing I'm doing very well and well it's nice to talk with you again this materialist interpretation of the origin of life is all around us. Obviously it's been around for a long time. You say that many scientists though are now questioning scientific materialism and embracing this God hypothesis exactly what you said and how is it return. How has it returned world.

The title of the book of by the story of the client in the modern form medic about the nature of road and a distinctively Judeo-Christian mill you in Western Europe during the time of roughly 1500 to 1750. Maybe even stretching back a bit into the late Middle Ages. You have figures like Newton and Galileo and Boylan coupler. All work devoutly religious man and who were studying nature with the confidence that they could understand literature precisely because they believed it had been designed by a rational intellect, namely God.

Watch for the talk about nature being intelligible could be understood by the rational human intellect because it would have written because there was reason built into nature and the same rational intellect who would made our minds have made nature with order and purpose and design and pattern that we could proceed. We lost the perspective of the late 19th century with figures like Darwin, Huxley, Marx employed the story of the book is the story of the return of that perspective. As a result of three great scientific discovery school right now. The first one has to do with evidence or cosmology about the beginning of the material universe. What is that evidence will began discovery of the beginning of the universe began you will, in the 19 teens and 20s about 100 years ago as astronomers were able to detect light coming from the object of the night sky, which we first outward clouds of gas around stars in our Milky Way, but then later realize were actually galaxies in their own right.

In this light coming from distant galaxies.

They discovered was being stretched out the wavelength of the light were longer than they should have been the objects were stationary. This is a phenomenon known as red shift. Red light has a longer wavelength for me in the visible light spectrum and violet. So this this stretching out of the light indicated that the galaxies were moving away from us and except for those that were very close at hand.

All the galaxies, the night sky were were indicating the kind of expansion of the universe itself universe is expanding outward in the forward direction of time and as you wind the clock backwards in your mind by you get to the place where the galaxies would've congealed into one dense point, marking the beginning of the expansion arguably the beginning of the universe itself and later discoveries for development and theoretical physics unsigned general theory of relativity.

A theory of gravity that employ the massive body that are actually curbing implied again that if you go back far enough of the matter becomes densely concentrated space will become so tightly curb.

It will eventually go to a zero point will be infinitely tightly curb correspondence zero special volume marking the beginning of space and time and the universe and was later called the singularity theorem was developed in the 1960s by Stephen Hawking. Roger Penrose and George Ellis and what another indication of the beginning the fascinating story I told the boss qualities interesting because if that indicates that there is a beginning to the universe, then why don't we see more scientists and more atheists acquiescing to that. Well I think actually there's quite a lot about cognitive dissonance in the field of astronomy and extra physics and cosmology since the discovery started to come online. There was a famous book in the 1980s by Robert Castro called God and he astronomers Jester identified himself as an agnostic, but acknowledge the clear theistic implications of the discovery of the beginning I attended a conference in Dallas where you are.

In 1985 when I was a very young scientist and one of the speakers there was a minimum. Ellen Sandage of the conference was featured in a discussion of the origin of the universe and the origin of life with both materialist atheist on one side of the panels and see if on the other hand is shocked everyone by climbing to the podium and taking a seat with the men and proceeded to explain how he had rejected his formerly held agnosticism or atheism, materialism, and embraced belief in God, not in spite of, but because of development in his own field. Sandage was one of the great observational astronomers of the 20th century Cuban Edwin Hubble's graduate student and went on to verify this expansion of the universe in the different quadrants of the night sky so there has been. I think part of the story I told the book there's been in a significant shift toward a more theistic perspective, among many scientists know that not commonly recognize that we only listen to folks like Bill Nye the science Guy McGrath under very popular science program. I try to listen to them as infrequently as possible. For those reasons, but when you mention cognitive dissonance.

I think that's very interesting, because what that seems to indicate is that it's very difficult to let go of your worldview. When evidence is contradicting your worldview.

Do you basically feel that way that that's really what's going on with a lot of these people absolutely were going on with the very explicitly what it was very cosmology debate Fred Hoyle who initially rejected the Big Bang theory actually labeled this idea of a cosmic beginning as the Big Bang in order kind of pejorative term you try to ridicule it and then and and many, many astrophysicists acknowledge that this was very disturbing to their worldview. One for Robert Dickey said that an infinitely old universe would relieve us of the W of explaining the origin of matter in any finite time in the past but conversely if there was an origin of matter, space, time and energy and you can't invoke a materialistic cause because before the beginning of matter. There was no matter that could've caused matter to come into existence.

So people recognize that this seemed to point to the need for an external creator of some kind was very troubling now since the 60s. I think that was the last decade that you mention when you're explaining how all you know that the evidence from the galaxies was was discussed and was put out there, but have there been any more recent developments and cosmology that have further confirmed those realities that were confirmed over hundred years ago. What we have been there with them. Great work in observational astronomy that was performed by a team led by George Smoot in the 1990s with something called the cosmic background Explorer Kobe satellite and they discovered little anomalies in the radiation left over from the Big Bang that were expected. Have there been a definite beginning and been found to that point but they were able to discover them in my book. I also discussed attempts to explain away the beginning of the universe using an alternative approach to cosmology by the heady name of quantum cosmology is kind of a big story.

It was popularized by Stephen Hawking in his book, a brief history of time and I show that that the sewer are developing this approach inadvertently develop a cosmological model that actually also implies the need for a creator. In effect, attempt to explain the origin of matter, space, time and energy from the laws of physics.

The laws of physics are expressed as mathematical equations, and so you have this odd paradox, where more immaterial. Mathematics is somehow producing a material universe and even some of the quantum physicists have recognized that that's very odd because math exists exist in the realm of the mind and Alexander blinking one of the architects of this quantum cosmological approaches that mean that, given on the way were trying to explain things a mind predated the universe. So even the attempt to get around the idea of a beginning using a different cosmological model has brought the gospel. Isn't that interesting because first short rate of return is the God hypothesis by Dr. Steven Myers the comeback with Dr. Meyer right after this break when Julia ended a bad relationship she found out she was pregnant after the father told her to get an abortion. This mom was confused and didn't know what to do or who to talk to you I got a question Julia was referred to a pre-born center where she was counseled and supported with the strength that she needed to choose life and he's here. Reborn centers provide hope, love, free ultrasounds in the gospel of Jesus Christ to moms like Julia pre-born truly is the alternative to Planned Parenthood. Will you join pre-born in helping love and support young moms in crisis for $140 you can sponsor five ultrasounds and help rescue five babies lives to donate call now 855402 Beatty 855-402-2229 855-402-2229 or there's a pre-born banner to hi this is Janet effort here in need of a new healthcare program that you miss the open enrollment deadline in December. It's not too late.

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What are you waiting for discover more about the power of more information call 855-585-4237 855-585-4237 or liberty liberty you're listening to Janet River today and here's a great lettuce and great to be talking with Dr. Stephen Meyer, philosopher of science and director of the Center for science and culture at the Discovery Institute. His latest book is called return of the God hypothesis and its really fascinating to talk to you, Dr. Meyer and find out everything that's been going on in the field of science that actually points to a creator.

Now we've been talking about some of the evidence from cosmology that reveals the mind behind the universe, but let's go on to another one that you mention which is evidence from physics that shows that the from the beginning, the universe has been finely tuned talk about that a little bit right well think about that universe that we were talking about. It turns out that the fourth driving that expansion is extremely precise such that if it were a little bit longer, or a little bit weaker life and stable galaxies and even basic chemistry would be impossible and it fine-tuned of one part intended than 90 of powers and accepted so to get that level of fine tuning of precision by chance, that would be like going out into the universe blindfolded looking for one marked elementary particle and the 80 elementary particles in our universe, but not just one not looking for that article in one universe but in 10 billion universe is our side so the mind blowing numbers and estimates of precision in the in the set up a basic physical parameters about fourth of expansion.

I'm talking about all the cosmological constant is just one of dozens of these fine tuning parameters, but the strength of gravitational force electric magnetic force.

The masses of the elementary particle.

The arrangement of matter and energy at the beginning of the universe. The initial conditions of the universe. All these things had to be finely tuned to allow for the possibility of life and many come to the conclusion that this fine tuning for justifying toner Fred Hoyle whom I mentioned in the last segment was initially skeptical of the Big Bang because of his own materialistic philosophy of atheism later rejected his own world earlier worldview and came to break the kind of proto-quality theism and said that the fine-tuning evidence evidence we have suggested a super intellect is monkeyed with physics and chemistry to make life possible.

So another example that shift in thinking among some very prominent scientists.

Now that's interesting because another thing that you dress in the book has to do with the multi-verse hypothesis and wasn't that another way of trying to explain the fine-tuning angle on the universe that is the most current way are trying to explain the fine-tuning without it fine-tuned her in the idea very, even though the parameters are incredibly improbably set. There were enough universes out there that eventually universe like ours that was life conducive would've had to have arisen. The problem with this hypothesis, however, is that these other universes out there, have no contact with cars, then they don't affect the probability in our universe events in our universe, including the probabilities of whatever it is that the fine-tuning to get around that problem. Multi-verse advocates at the proposed universe in general generating mechanisms that can present all the universe is the consequence of a single common cause like if universe is one of the outcomes of a sort of a lottery and ours just happens to be the lucky winner in a giant cosmic law. The difficulty arises. However when you look at these generate universe generating mechanisms that have been proposed, even in theory they require prior unexplained fine-tuning and so the fine-tuning problem hasn't really been explain this is been pushed back one generation and out of view. But the only explanation we have for systems in our experience that are finely tuned where we mean something like an ensemble of improbable conditions that jointly produce a functional outcome. Systems like that that are finely tuned.

Whether were talking about Swiss watches or digital code or of a print recipe. They always come from a fine-tuning from Russia or an engineer or or a software designer. Another words, fine-tuning is an indicator of intelligence.

In our experience, and since the multi-verse happened explained away fine-tuning it. Leave the only explanation that we know of that is intelligent design yes make sense to me now what about the DNA evidence because some of the recent discoveries about DNA also use a point to a mastermind of the universe. How so what's going on in Ashfield.

Well, this is what my first two books are about dormant signature in the cell and I reprise some of the basic arguments in this book to get the full picture of the three big discoveries in ensemble but in 1953.

We all learned in the biology class that Watson and crick discovered the structure of the DNA molecule but in 1957 and 58 crick made an arguably even more important discovery was called initially the sequence hypothesis and he proposed that the chemical subunits along the interior of that twisting double helix molecule. The subunits are called bases.

He proposed that their functioning like alphabetic characters in a written text or digital characters like zeros and ones were using software that hypothesis was eventually confirmed the information stored in the DNA molecule is actually been used to construct the proteins and molecular machines that keep cells alive, Bill Gates, our local hero here in the Seattle area for beginning like a software program will be much more complex than any we've ever created. We know from experience that software comes from programmers we know more generally, the information in whatever form we find it especially if we find in the digital or alphabetic form always results from a prior intelligence. Whether were talking about a paragraph in the book or hieroglyphic inscription or even information embedded in a radio signal. If we trace information back to the ultimate source we always come to mind. Not not strict materialistic processes so the discovery of information in the molecules with the foundation of life in every living cell, I argue, should point to the reality of the designing intelligence at work in the origin and history of life is amazing.

You can't cover that as you mentioned before in your two other books but it's still fascinating because you draw a distinction to you. It is too idealistic explanation for the mind versus a theistic why is there a difference that the theistic view explains these things better than the deistic view in all of these three things we were talking about scientific materialism really failed explanation because it denies a pre-existing mind and requires eternal self existent matter credible, but that then suggests some kind of a mind is at work and this is the question I addressed in this new book what what type of the mind deistic creator could explain the origin of the universe and the origin of the fine-tuning but the DSM posits a God who does an act after the beginning of the universe and yet we have evidence of design arising well after the beginning and the origin of life and in the origin of major new forms of life. What I wrote about in the previous books, but also proposed an imminent intelligence of an intelligent agent within the cosmos. Effectively a space alien and no less a personage than the Francis crick himself, Richard Dawkins, the great scientific atheist in Britain. These two to scientists of proposed this theory called panspermia that I shown the book. It's implausible as well. Not only because it just pushes the question of the origin of the information necessary to build the first light out into space, but also because any being with in the cosmos that evolved long after the beginning could not explain the origin of the universe at the beginning or the origin of the fine-tuning of the laws of physics and chemistry that make it very life possible. So it's not only a deistic conception of a creator that lacks adequacy of an explanation, but also purely imminent intelligence, some kind of alien being within the cosmos, which is audited themes is a hypothesis to which some scientists have recently repaired amazing. So the divine watchmaker doesn't quite work when you're looking at substance evidence, but specifically when you're looking at all of this and saying this really does point to the existence of a personal God more in line with the Judeo-Christian worldview. How would you say that that's the case, is it just basically from what you've been saying. Are there additional elements to all of this that point really in the direction that that the you know, Newton would have seen in other scientists back in the day would have seen that really spurred them on to you know say that science is noble, right, what each of the three things I've been talking about do point in that direction and there are some additional elements as well talk about three things that the origin of matter, space, time and energy at some finite time in the past suggests the need for a transcendent call to cause beyond matter, space, time and energy, and given that the universe began at a point in time that in it that suggests the need for mind to initiate a change of state from whatever was before the universe to the beginning of the universe. In addition, the fine-tuning of the laws of physics and chemistry on the initial conditions of the universe suggest an intelligent and I equated intelligence health conscious awareness with with personality persons are intelligent. That's what we mean by that, and then within the third line of evidence suggests an intelligent agent who is not only transcendent but also active in the creation because the evidence we have of life arising in the information necessary to produce life comes not well down the timeline well after the beginning so not again, not abuse the creator you look at the ensemble of evidences we have about biological, physical and cosmological origins.

It turns out the classical theism with its affirmation of a transcendent, intelligent and active creator and also a powerful creator best fits the evidence so that that's the kind of evidence that, for example, in the in the New Testament in chapter 1 of the book of Romans, Paul affirms and move us to an awareness of the attributes of God from the things that are made, the unseen qualities of the creator and eternal power and divine nature. Sometimes translated wisdom can be can be known so that enough.

I think as far as you can go with arguments from nature that's that's pretty far. Indeed, it does get us to the footsteps of of a transcendent and personal creator right well and it would seem the implications of these discoveries would be huge for the future of science is more and more scientists would recognize this when you asked a bit ago about some of the sciences and their resistance to the implications of these discoveries. I have a friendly debating partner Michael Ruth my done a number of debates over the years.

He's written a book explaining that neo-Darwinism is a theory of origins, materialistic theory of origins is functioned as a kind of secular religion for many scientists and I think what going on is something you indicated earlier in our conversation is that is that for many scientists, science, and a materialistic philosophy are equated in their minds. And so if you're challenging origin theories that are strictly materialistic. You get a lot of pushback because people instinctively recognize that what was being challenged.

Is there worldview as well as fine.

You're totally right about dad's return of the God hypothesis by Dr. Stephen Meyer so good to have your document thank you very much for being with us. Thank you Greg to talk about how great to talk to you.

I really appreciate you. Thank you again for listening to Janet this Janet met for today podcast is brought to you in part by Bible league international. We want to send 1500 Bibles to Africa through Bible leaves open the floodgates Bibles for Africa campaign. Five dollars sends one Bible and a matching grant will double your gift call now 800 yes word 800 yes word Janet Mefford today and here's your host Joe never looking back.

I'm so glad when tyrants get what's coming to them doesn't happen often enough, obviously in this world. Not until Jesus returns, will we have full justice full freedom as God originally intended, but I'm very happy with what the Supreme Court did late last week really handing tyrants, Gavin Newsom, the governor of California. Another defeat when it comes to religious freedom.

This is why a PJ media about nine hours after the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals refused to grant an injunction that would allow in-home prayer meetings. This Supreme Court thankfully stepped in and they suspended Newsom's Cove 19 restrictions and it's kind of interesting because California change the restriction shortly after the plaintiffs filed a lawsuit so they would have remained in place until April 15, which is just right around the corner, but it's kind of interesting because they're trying to say oh no no no, this is just too dangerous, which is laughable when we think back to what went on at the height of the pandemic. In 2020.

It was all about 15 days to slow the spread 15 days to slow the spread.

The whole goal was to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed. That was the stated reason and then it became just because you're vaccinated doesn't mean you can take your mask off. In fact you are aware two or three now you have Dr. Fauci going around saying it's still not safe and vaccinated people to eat or drink without a mask inside enough go away go away. Don't go away mad just go away were not listening to you anymore because if it were up to you Dr. found she would never have any freedom again.

This is the way leftists think because once they saw that they could get a populist to become compliant with anything they said or did, because they fooled them into being over-the-top fearful of this Cove 19 virus which while terrible has been recoverable for 96 to 99% of the people who get it.

Let's not forget that we never talk about that because that kinda ruins the whole narrative, but in the midst of the height of the pandemic. We had people like Newsom stain on the abortion clinics can stay open and the black lives matter. Protesters can hit the streets and were not to do anything to them in the liquor stores they need to stay open because that's an essential business but churches you have to shut down at that point the jig was up. People saw what was really going on. People saw how they were taking a real virus and exploiting it for political gain, and we were on to them. We were on to them within a couple weeks. Everybody wanted to be a good American. We didn't want the hospitals to be overloaded with patients who couldn't possibly be treated. And so we said find 15 days to sell the spread I can do that. We all were very good citizens, but after that when we saw the racial justice stuff in the looting and the burning and meanwhile use our pro-lifers getting arrested in Washington for training enough. We understand you hate your enemies and you love your friends and you punish your enemies and you're going to reward your friends and there is a double standard, and nowhere was it more on display than in the state of California so I'm glad to see that this Supreme Court's ruled that applicant's meaning this pastor and group of worshipers who had sued over this. Applicants are likely to succeed on the merits of their free exercise claim they are irreparably harmed by the loss of free exercise rights for even minimal periods of time and the state has not shown that public health would be imperiled by employing less restrictive measures. They also said accordingly, applicants are entitled to an injunction pending appeal.

This is actually, by the way. The fifth time. The fifth time that the Supreme Court has summarily rejected the Ninth Circuit's analysis of California's covert restrictions on religious exercise.

California's blueprint system contains married exceptions and accommodations for comparable activities, thus requiring the application of strict scrutiny excellent by the way. As an aside, good old Roberts did not go along with this decision. Chief Justice John conservative Roberts, who we first got a look at in terms of his actual ideology during the Obama care case where he suddenly set up. Nobody cares totally constitutional is just a tax even though Obama said it's not a tax but it's a tax and people began to ask the question what's going on with him as he been threatened another somebody's wanting to go after his family if he doesn't rule the right way.

It's is it one of those scenarios. I know because he's kept it up ever since he needs to go back.

I needs to go. But anyway, that's another story for another day. It was interesting to see though some of the things that the court had to say in the spy for decision about religious freedom and the state stepping on religious freedom. For example, the court ruled that the Ninth Circuit's failure to grant an injunction pending appeal was erroneous and they laid out for key points on religious freedom here they are first government regulations are not neutral and generally applicable and therefore triggers strict scrutiny under the free exercise clause whenever they treat any comparable secular activity more favorably than religious exercise which is exactly what a lot of these tyrants have done. Second, whether two activities are comparable. For purposes of the free exercise clause must be judged against the asserted government interest that justifies the regulation at issue comparability is concerned with the risks of various activities pose, not the reasons why people came up there now that is a very important point. In other words, what they're trying to say here is how risky is it for a bunch of Christians to gather for a prayer meeting in somebody's home in a group of say 21 people versus 21 people gathering at an abortion clinic or a Walmart. Is it more dangerous in somebody's home then it is in the Walmart. If so, you gotta prove it and that hasn't been done.

Third, the government has the burden to establish that the challenge law satisfy strict scrutiny, and to do so.

In this context, the court said it must do more than assert that certain risk factors are always present in worship were always absent from the other secular activities, the government may allow.

Instead, narrow tailoring requires the government to show that measures less restrictive of the First Amendment activity could not address its interests in reducing the spread of COBIT and then I finally even if the government withdraws or modifies a covert restriction in the course of litigation does not necessarily move the case and so long as a case is not moot. Litigants otherwise entitled to emergency injunctive relief remain entitled to such relief where the applicants remain under constant threat that government officials would use their power to reinstate the challenged restrictions which is kind of interesting.

Going back to what I told you a couple of minutes ago. They had actually lifted the restrictions and said you can go back to normal.

April 15 you're not making a case that it's extremely dangerous for Christians to pray in their own homes. You just mean a bunch of tyrants is what you mean.

I once again and I've been saying this for over a year now.

I once again want to salute every single church and every single pastor and every single Christian who is been willing to stand up to these tyrants and courts because in so many cases we have seen the Supreme Court sided with the Christians and it's a wonderful thing, especially in these times where we rarely see that sort of thing happen. We don't have a whole lot to rejoice about in this country right now when it comes to a lot of these cases that go before the court in various ways, but we do have have cause to rejoice about this and we should give thanks and praise to the Lord for it because this is very important. What I'm hoping, though, more than anything else. Again, something I've been saying for quite a long time, the legislatures of the states and I don't have a whole lot of faith in the legislature. In California, which by the way is your fault.

California voters and not you. Of course, but those other California voters.

But what needs to happen is these legislatures need to pass laws after all this nonsense is over and put in tight restrictions on what is allowed to be done to people during the course of a pandemic in terms of restricting their freedoms. I'm so sick and tired of this emergency injunction stuff where the governors just go on for months and months and months.

No you can't do that she can't do that.

You can't go here you have to wear a mask, you can't do that she can't do that at meanwhile there is no law saying any of it and what that does is take away an essential part of what it means to be an American, which is elected representatives who are from your particular area and may know you personally and or at least responsible to you personally on a more personal level than a statewide elected official, like the governor they are the ones who are to be there representing you in your legislature. And they are therefore the ones who ought to be making laws determining how much of your freedom.

This state can steal from you under the guise of public health and that's another subject is the whole issue of public health. I liked what a recent guest had to say on that.

When we started asserting public health and accepting in the name of public health. We can let go of this freedom and that freedom and the other freedom. That's where it really started to go off the rails and so it is the job of these legislatures to make laws when this is all done, or maybe even right now to take away the dictator angle on any future pandemic and I hope that we never have to see one again, don't you, when we come back working to give you an update on Grace life church in Canada. Boy they are incredible were to tell you what's going on when we come back to listening to Janet today.

This is Janet Matt for it for Bible league international engaging the world with God's word for more than 80 years, believers in Africa are hungry to read their very own Bibles hear from Pastor Jeremiah in Zimbabwe.

The church is growing very fast in the north part of the country where it's on the speaking people and speaking people. And then you know we find that is the movement of the dispute, they way the hunger. Hunger is pretty much the supporting a tête-à-tête aboard about 100 people under custom letter Bible was the pasta but everybody else had never seen a Bible and that fuses motivation, one, two or more to do more to reach as many people as we can know where going to go they just take the lack of true Bible studies and resources that introduce people to Jesus Christ by the leak is faithfully discipling new believers in Kenya, Donna, Ethiopia and many other African countries, here's an evangelist named Joseph in South Africa. We were even deleted day is about 1663 is also seen many clients he knelt down and she tried CCC never had a Bible.

So much for feeding just to see people like hey dressing, and when the you can be the answer to a Christian praying for God's word through open the floodgates Bibles for Africa. Five dollars sends one Bible $50 sends 10 and a matching grant will double your gift and help us reach our goal to send 1500 Bibles. Call 800 yes word 800 Y ES WO RD or there's a banner to click and Janet Matt for you're listening to you today and know we have been talking for a long time about Pastor James Coates and his family and his church family. Grace life church up in Canada and things just keep escalating. I saw a twitter video over the weekend where there was a that you make might know that there was a fence erected around this church.

This is the church where the pastor was in jail for 35 days because he was preaching and he was having people come to his church and oh no we can't have that cove in 19 will come and get you so 35 days in jail for the pastor.

He finally gets out and the government puts up a fence around his church because that's a high priority. I guess in Alberta. It's important to fence off churches you know thing like communist China anything like like the Middle East. You don't look like a bunch of Iranian mullahs, trying to shut down Christian worship know this is civilized Canada and then they dispatch something like 200 police officers according to rubble news to come out once some of the protesters had torn down a portion of the fence. Frankly, I think that was fine.

I'm not for property damage. I'm not for you know doing something illegal but what right does the state have to put a fence around the church are you kidding me when they ordered the church close. I don't know all The lawyers can sort all of this out. It's it's crazy it's really crazy, but something similar. By the way. As an aside, was done in Burbank, California. Since we were talking about California over the weekend.

The city of Burbank put up a chain-link fence around a local restaurant that has repeatedly defied County health orders during the pandemic. It's around the tin horn, flat saloon and grill.

They want to prevent the owners from reopening under unsafe conditions.

What's kind of interesting is the owner, was quoted by the LA Times as saying show me one shred of evidence how I am endangering the public. This is never been about safety or the public. It's never been about that. This whole thing is about fear and control right on exactly what it's about. And you know what if people had fought back against this in droves. We might not be here today if we started acting like we own our own country which we do. We the people, theoretically at least, are the ones who run this country.

We started acting like were actually in charge. We might've had a better outcome.

But let's lay that aside, very interesting. What's going on at Grace life church the range road according to the Edmonton paper in front of Grace life church was closed to traffic on Sunday and became the scene of this protest that lasted much of the day, and all these officers showed up. Lots of these people gathered and sang hymns and listen to Bible readings, which was held outside fencing and closing church property and just afternoon was when some attendees tore down sections of the fence as they were rushed in and stopped in all of this. It's crazy but you have to look at this and say what are you doing what are you doing to Chris chance do you really think that these Christians getting together in this church are responsible for pandemic. Do you really think that they don't have separate jurisdiction from the states because they do. Why is that why is Canada allowed to tell a church you can or can't meet.

They don't even look at their own laws. Half the time and we saw that with that recent incident where a Polish pastor had kicked the Nazis out. They were an actual Nazis, but he knows a good Nazi when he sees one given his experience in the Iron Curtain.

You know what a Nazi type figure does police stormed the church and tell you can't meet this is exactly what's going on in China. So what's the real difference. What was interesting was over at Grace Community Church in California. John MacArthur's church, which has also stood strong against the tyrants there.

The government that is trying to shut them down and not meet. According to the local guidelines they received a letter from Pastor James Coates because of course there's overlap. James Coates actually was educated at Master seminary. I believe it is, which is connected to grace Community Church John MacArthur had this to say on Sunday. Listen Grace life church up in Alberta Canada is meeting somewhere. We don't know where James Coates said at this point it's the not the public to know amazing to have an underground church in Canada.

This because the government of Alberta triple fence the church and unlocked it so people couldn't go there. I think of the latest statistics I've seen are that 2000 people have died through the months of covert percent of them in senior homes. The remaining one set some kind of comorbidity out of the millions of people who live in Alberta so there's no legitimate reason to do what they did to this church, especially at this point in the covert life, but they did and this is a first for the Western world to have the government lock out believers from the church and that after imprisoning James Coates is a graduate of the Master seminary in maximum-security prison.

They led him away and changed and he was there for about 35 days.

Many of you have been praying for Chris like church and the other scene is changing. There's massive outcry against the government for doing this and I'm playing along with you that this will draw attention to that church to him and to the gospel and assorted unity that line praying as well and I know a lot of you have been praying for James Coates seen one of the reasons that it's important for this pastors to stand strong is because it does bring really needed attention to this issue of freedom and liberty and especially religious freedom, not just in Canada but also drives the point home to a lot of people here in the states. It makes me a bit crazy when I'm reading some of the things that I'm reading on twitter from supposing Christians who are saying things like, what would they expect they broke the law yeah I'm to go back to Corrie 10 boom once more because she's never far from my mind. In these sorts of instances the 10 boom family also broke the law. Oh, twitter, sages do know what they did. They broke the law in order to hide Jews from being carted off to concentration camps when literal Nazis were coming to the door and hauling Jews away impact train so they could be exterminated by the millions. And those Christians rightly said, this is an unjust law and were breaking it. See, this is the point we are not to engage in nonstop civil disobedience based on what we want in the moments that is not appropriate and that is not biblical. We are to understand the role of government.

God has given to us. A civil sphere to wield the sword to be able to punish evildoers and to be able to protect people think of the anarchy that would be afoot. If we had no police, are you listening to me.

Leftists define the police yeah that's working great in Minneapolis. Just saying we need the state, but what can happen in this sinful world is the state can become empowered with the evil people themselves who then use the power of the state to oppress and to even exterminate people they should be protecting. And that's what happened in Germany during the Nazi era, we don't want that again there are countless examples of that.

Just within the last century of tyrannical governments, tyrannical governments today.

Whether it be the mullahs in Iran or we have the Chinese communist government going after churches and telling them you have to take down the 10 Commandments and were to bulldoze your church. You don't have any freedom you can't meet organ, imprison your pastor. Whether it's North Korea that we could go on and on and on.

Of all the examples of corrupt governments across the globe who are pressing and even killing Christians and shutting down churches. We don't want that to happen in the West.

Why, because we are still the area of the world where most of the world looks to us as well. At least they are free there and maybe if God grants me the ability I can get myself to the United States and when I'm in the United States. I can be free to praise the Lord. I can be free. I can go to church on Sunday. I can worship as God calls me to worship. I don't have to be worried about police coming to my house in the middle of the night knocking on the door and hauling me off and you know what those Christians around the globe are looking at what is happening in Canada and no doubt looking at some of what's been happening in the United States and they are shocked and they're shocked worse than a lot of these twitter sages who claim to be Christians are shocked, who are still saying naïve and ridiculous things like it's the government handing you have to submit to the government. We the people around this country we have to submit to the Constitution, which gives us freedom of religion.

The state and the church are separated.

Remember that leftists you love citing that if you have some little kid handing out tracts at Christmas time with a candy cane you love screaming about the separation of church and state, but the minute that the church says fine then we are a separate spear and we have jurisdiction over what goes on in God's house here on Sunday when we gather together to worship him in spirit and in truth and lift up and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to needy sinners, many of whom are depressed or even suicidal because they're so locked down and tyrannized by government over the past year we have a sphere to it's important for James Coates to be doing what he's doing and I agree that in the long run I think this is gonna be a glorious victory for the gospel to see Christians standing up for freedom started playing it started that way in this country. It was Christians seeking freedom that began the great nation that is the United States of America and freedom must remain or we will no longer be the United States of America. So keep on praying for him in every faithful pastor and church in this land and north of us who will not compromise on this issue. God bless and thanks for being with us. We invite you to help us send Bibles to Africa through Bible league international five dollars.

Since one Bible call 800 yes word 800 YDS WORT thank you so much

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