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PRCUALife, protecting life through all its stages. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick.
All right, If Not For God with Mike Zwick. I've got my good friend Matt and Allison Willis met each other in college on an international mission trip. Serving the Lord together began a relationship that has been used to be its foundation and deepest joy for the last 20 years. They currently serve at Calvary Baptist Church in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, where Matt is the Associate Pastor of Missions at Angeles. They previously served this international mission for missionaries for seven years in South Asia with their three children who are now 14, 13, and 11 years old. Matt co-offered Learn to Support How to Grow Through Transitions and Trials with our, assuming Kyle's reading this, granddad Avery Willis. Matt has a Master's of Divinity from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Allison authored a simplified version of Be Transformed, Discovering Biblical Solutions to Life's Problems, Scope Ministries International, in which she helped translate into South Asian languages and used to train women overseas.
Allison is a registered dietitian with a Master's degree in dietetics and also has served as a nutrition counselor. But Matt, I actually grew up at Calvary Baptist, but you grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Is that right? That's correct. Yeah. My wife and I are both from Oklahoma.
So coming from a state that has neither beaches nor mountains, we really love North Carolina. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, it's funny. We've actually talked about, I don't know, what's the guy's name, not Kenneth Copeland, although we have mentioned him, but there's a guy named Oral Roberts and you said Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I said, wasn't that near Oral Roberts?
And you said it was what? Three miles away from where I grew up. You have the university there. But you grew, you went to, you grew up Baptist. That's right. I went to Oklahoma Baptist University for my undergrad. Oh my gosh. And you've been in North Carolina for six years now?
That's right. And so what brought you out here? So before this, I was serving in South Asia as a missionary and there was against these huge populations of lostness, millions, tens of millions of people who've never heard the name of Jesus and realizing how small I am as one person or one family, what can we do? And felt like the Lord was leading us back to the States to mobilize more people for missions. And so I had a mutual friend with Calvary and they, uh, had a position open for missions pastor. So I interviewed with them and thankfully the Lord just opened that door and it was a seamless transition.
Wow. And I actually met you over it, uh, Wednesday in the word this morning. Um, and, uh, you, you're actually going to be at the, uh, we're having a revival on November 4th, 5th and 6th, right next to the Cox Toyota dealership in Burlington, North Carolina. Now, November 4th, I want everybody who's listening to come November 4th.
Uh, it's going to be at six o'clock, November 5th and 6th. It's going to be at five o'clock and you're actually going to be bringing this book. What's the name of the book? Yeah, it's called master life together that I co-authored with my wife. And the subtitle is a discipleship experience for small groups.
Wow. And so what, what kind of laid it on your heart for you guys to write this book? Well, I think the best books are written out of just real life ministry that are happening. So it's a simplified revision of material that my granddad Avery Willis wrote, uh, called master life written 40 years ago, over 330,000 people have gone through it translated into 50 languages.
It was more popular when I was growing up as a kid. And so I didn't have the opportunity to really go through it as it was intended over a six month period and small group community. So I decided just two or three years ago to lead a couple of groups through the material. And as I did that, there were some people I discipled who went on to disciple other people in groups using master life, but then there were others who said, this is just too long of a process. I don't know who's willing to commit six months to grow as a disciple. So we decided my wife and I, what if we could have a shorter version that would just be a little easier for people to get the taste in their mouth of what it's like to be fully in all into being a follower of Jesus that could lead to a lifelong discipleship journey. Wow.
And we had talked about this a little bit before at Wednesday in the word, but a lot of people have, have grown up in the tradition of you get up on Sunday morning, you go to church, you leave church after church is done. And that's all it is. Uh, but with small groups, it's a little bit more than that. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. So we wrote the material for some flexibility of new or existing groups. So it could be a Sunday school class, but it will raise the bar of expectations for people because each day there's five days of guided quiet time. So, okay, here's what we encourage you to read in the word.
Here's a couple of pages of questions to answer and then come together on the weekly time. So much of what's done in small groups in, in the United States is, yeah, you show up once and you're not expected or held accountable to do anything with it in the week. And then you come back and you learn some more and think discipleship that is just knowledge-based isn't really discipleship. I mean, knowledge is important, but we also need to obey it, apply it in our lives and fall more in love with Jesus.
Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and the end of the Holy spirit. But I think you ask a lot of Christians and you say, well, what does it mean to make disciples? And they kind of say, well, I don't really know. What does that mean?
Yeah. So a lot of people have never been discipled. So it's hard to know what it means when you've never been discipled, but I would say discipleship is a personal love relationship with Jesus Christ. That's demonstrated in a lifelong journey of obedience with him.
The results of that is that our character becomes more Christ-like, our values become his values, and we join him on mission in our home, the church and the world. Wow. And so, you know, we were talking about this a little bit before. I think sometimes we can get excited about something, we can want to do something, but then there's always going to be something that actually holds us back from doing it. And I told the story this morning with Stu about, there was a little boy who was, uh, he wanted to be, get into gymnastics and he was trying, he was trying, he was working, doing all these things. And then the day where his first event came up and he actually said to the teacher, he said, uh, sir, he said, I'm too scared. He says, I can't do this. I don't think I can do this. And the teacher says, don't worry about it.
He says, throw your heart over the bar and your body will follow. And so I think sometimes we think, oh, you know, we're going to make disciples. We're going to start small groups. And there may not be, you know, it's, it's going to be pretty simple. It's not going to, I'm not going to have all these problems, but we were talking about this this morning. Uh, there are obstacles that do come up. So how do we overcome those obstacles?
Yeah. Well, Jesus said in Luke nine 23 and 24, whoever wants to be my disciple, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me for whoever wants to save his life will lose it. But whoever loses his life for me, we'll save it. So it really does begin in our heart. Discipleship need not be over complicated.
The process that we wrote here in the material is a minimum of 12 weeks with a few recommended sessions of weeks after that. But it really does come down to a will that surrendered to the Lord in discipleship. So discipleship really is not intended to be optional for Christians. Like, well, I don't know if I want to be really a disciple, or I just want to be a nominal Christian in name only. Uh, really when we accept Christ as our savior, we also are to accept him as Lord and that's Lord over all areas of our life. But that's a continual surrendering to in our time, our talents, our treasures, different ways that that manifests itself.
Sure. And you had actually, you were actually telling a story about a, an instance where you actually faced obstacle obstacles in another country, a Southeastern Asian, Asian country where the police got involved. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. So I was sharing the gospel with people who had never heard the name of Jesus. In fact, I was traveling with a local believer and I would ask them, I said, you're a shepherd.
I've got a good friend. Who's a shepherd. His name is Jesus. Have you ever heard of him? And they're like, no, but the next village is over there and you can ask maybe Jesus lives over there, but we've never heard of him. And they're 80 years old.
Yeah. And I'm like, how in the world have you never heard even his name one time? Well, as we were sharing the gospel with some people, there were many people who accepted Christ gladly, but there were some who didn't. And one of them called the police on us. And so they came out, intercepted us, interrogated us, uh, asked us to give them the different Christian materials that we had with us. And then they also threatened us with imprisonment. They said, we're going to come back tomorrow.
And if you've told anyone else about Jesus, we'll throw you in jail. Oh man. The, uh, that, that is, that is something else. And so, but it, but the cool thing is, is about that where you said you shake, shake the dust off of your feet and you move on.
I think sometimes people get, yeah. So there's one thing that we mentioned in the master life together material that I think is maybe helpful for those who are listening and it's red light, yellow light, green light. If you think of everyone that you're sharing the gospel with, who's an unbeliever, uh, with, uh, when you're telling them the gospel, they're one of three responses. So that red light is the wipe the dust off your feet and move on.
As Jesus said in Luke 10, um, in Jude one, uh, 22 and 23, it says be merciful to those who doubt. So that's a yellow light. Like, uh, they're kind of interested, but not ready to commit yet. Um, and it says, snatch others from the fire and save them. That's the green light. There are people who are ready to receive Christ. If someone would just tell them and show them God's love. And then it says to others show mercy mixed with fear, hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh, which is what the red light is. And so I think it's just important for us to have that in our mind when we're sharing the gospel, which of course is necessary to make disciples. You know, if we just keep talking about discipleship among Christians, it's just spiritual inbreeding. You know, we need to lead new people to faith. And so when we're doing that, uh, we're afraid of those red lights, but that's really the minority of responses.
The majority of people when you share the gospel with are really that yellow light. They're interested to have a conversation in here more. And so we talk some about strategies of how to go about that.
Yeah. So one thing that I try to do anytime I'm eating out is to ask the server how we could pray for them. Now, in the past, I used to just ask, you know, can we pray for you? And sometimes they would say no, or I don't know what to even pray for.
They just are far from God in their hearts. And so what I've started doing is to say, we're followers of Jesus. And so we're going to pray before our food and we're going to pray for you too. So how can we best pray for you?
Whether that be health, job, whatever. And when I say it that way, you know, I'm just saying I'm going to pray for you. So how could I best do that? Then they're like, Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. So it's almost always, you know, a positive response at that point, even if they're caught off guard, they don't know what to even ask prayer for. Then at the end with the tip, I give them a couple of different cards. There are some cards I have that have a QR code that points them to the Jesus film.
And then also just an invite to our church as well, just saying, Hey, we'd love to continue the relationship, you know? Yeah, that's right. And in that passage that you just talked about from John four, right before that in verses 35 and 36, he said what I think was my favorite passage in the depths of the pandemic. When he said, do you not say four months more and then the harvest, I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields.
They are ripe for harvest. Even now the reaper draws his wages. Even now he harvest the crop for eternal life. So that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. He says, that's the saying one sows and another reaps is true. I sent you to reap what you have not worked for.
Others have done the hard work and you have reaped the benefits of their labor. In other words, it was easy for many Christians to say in the pandemic, well, you know, in four months from now, six months from now, 12 months from now, then we're going to minister more and share the gospel and get out there. And unfortunately I feel like too many churches didn't rise to the occasion where more people were open to the gospel than before. And yet too many Christians were shrinking back in fear, worrying about their own life. And it's okay to take some wise steps to steward our health, but not to the point of not being willing to sacrifice our own health for the sake of other people's eternity. Billy Graham one time.
Yeah, definitely. Sometimes we talk about mouth to ear evangelism so that people are hearing that and doing that in a relationship. And so when I'm training people on how to share the gospel, it's usually a gospel conversation training, which also involves modeling. So, uh, sometimes I'm doing that, but sometimes I'm having other people come, a Mike Shipman with any three has written a book out there.
That's great. He's living in Raleigh currently, but has been a missionary in Southeast Asia with the IMB and it's called anyone, anytime, anywhere, how you can share the gospel with anyone. He did a training at Calvary, within the past few weeks. And he sent us out in the afternoon, go out and share. So I took a guy with me and we went and shared the gospel at a place where, uh, that it was owned by a Hindu guy from India. And we ended up sharing the gospel with him. He accepted Christ, even though that was the very first time we had met him, he's from the same state in India as some members of our church. And so we exchanged phone numbers and they're having them over into their home to just take those next steps of discipleship.
Wow. And so the small groups, and this is what you talk about in the book. There are things from the small groups that you won't be able to get by being in a church. So when you go to a church, it's quiet, you're listening to the pastor.
It's great. Uh, but there are some things that you can also get by being in a small group that you may not be able to get from a church. And one of those things is questions and answers mean, because when somebody is a new Christian, a lot of times they do have questions.
Yeah, that's right. So in the material of master life together, the discipleship experience for small groups, we spend 12 weeks walking through simple yet comprehensive kind of 360 degree view of your life as a follower of Christ. And one of those weeks is on witnessing.
So just to say, okay, here's one of several different areas we look at. And then those practical sessions I mentioned after week 12, one of them is practice sharing the gospel. So you can spend a couple hours working on your testimony, how to share the gospel with people, your story and Jesus's story. And then the week after that is actually going and sharing the gospel. Like let's just go do this. And so yes, there, there's the five days of guided quiet time, but then there's the weekly gathering where we're able to ask questions and facilitate that discussion. Yeah, because it's easy to talk about talking about sharing the gospel.
It's a whole nother thing to actually go out there and do it. And so, you know, one of the things that I think holds a lot of people back is fear is fear of rejection, or these people aren't going to want to listen to me or whatever, but, um, actually it's, it's funny and I've gotten this way is that the more that I share it, the more, when I, when I'm ready to share the gospel now, it's like, it's funny. God just gives you the words to say and represent the owner of the truth network.
He did a Wednesday in the word one time and he said that Peter is Phillip opened up his mouth when he was talking to the eunuch. And he says, the first thing that we have to do is just open up our mouth. But in addition to that, we also have the skill set of to be able to, okay, what is the most effective way to do this?
You talked about the red light, the green light, the yellow light. What are some other skills that people can pick up on to help share the gospel? Well, some of it is doing it together.
So in Luke 10, Jesus sent the disciples out two by two to every village where he was going to go. When we're thinking of evangelism, if we're thinking about doing it on our own, it's harder, but when we do it with someone, another believer by our side, that's great. One of you may be sharing and the other one's praying, or one of you is able to speak at a different time. The two of you are able to do it together.
And so I think that doing it together and being accountable to it, like, Hey, we're going to go this Saturday. Let's find a time to share the gospel, both with people we know and new people. I think that's part of it more than just a certain skill.
Uh, even though training is important, I read a book, uh, gospel fluency by Jeff Vanderstel and in there he said, you know, people don't really need training on how to talk about their favorite sports team or to show pictures of their kids or grandkids. They just do it because they love the things or the people. And if we would just fall more in love with Jesus and lost people, we're going to want to share the gospel with them, even though some of them are going to turn down Christ. Yeah.
The John Wesley said one time, he said, I set myself on fire and people come to watch me burn. And I, I do believe that, uh, especially in the, I believe we're living in the last days that as we're living in these last days, people are looking for something. Um, if they want to pick up this book, what did they go to Amazon? Yeah, they can find on Amazon or lifeway is the publisher. And so, uh, easy link that they could get to is a Bitly link. So it's bit.ly slash master life together.
And October 3rd, just a few days from now is when it's going to be published so they can pick it up that way. Uh, but your, your wife also does ministry as well. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. My wife is an amazing woman. And yeah, as you mentioned in the bio, she's a dietician by trade. She's temporarily working as a substitute teacher at Calvary day school. Uh, but her real heart is for discipleship. And so when we lived in South Asia, she was training local Christians to make disciples using that be transformed material.
But I'm so thankful to have got to coauthor this with her. And, uh, we're currently leading a group through this material on Sunday nights. So we've got a dozen people in there. Some of them are brand new believers. One couples from Kenya.
One lady is from the same province in the same country in Asia, where my wife and I went 20 years ago and how we met on a mission trip. So here we are 20 years later, still ministering to people from that part of the world through material that we've written. And there is something helpful in the back of this book, which is a leader's guide. So if anyone is listening to this and say, okay, this is really not intended to just be your one-on-one Bible study alone with God.
It's supposed to be in community. I would say find two or more people to go through it with. And there's the guide in the back to help, you know, how to make the most of the material. But, uh, you you've done foreign missions.
Did you do a long-term mission? Yeah, that's right. And to speak to that other thing that you were saying, one of the things we do in the material of master life together is scripture memory. So we have a verse that we're memorizing every week. And when we come together, we break up into groups of two or three and say, all right, let's quote the verse from the last week. So yes, there's that loving accountability that says, wow, God's word is valuable to memorize and meditate and apply in our lives. And then to the question about long-term missions.
Yeah. So I knew that God was calling me to spend part of my life as an international missionary when I was 18 years old, and then went through years of schooling to get more equipped for serving overseas. And we lived for seven years in South Asia and it felt like longer than seven, because we were in a place that was so dark and so different from biblical worldview.
It was just really challenging. And yet the Lord is doing something really special. There are multiple networks of church planting movements that are happening throughout South Asia. I'm going to South Asia, taking a team to train leaders of church planting movement networks in master life together just in a few days from now.
So I'd appreciate your prayer for that. But doing that, the one network we're focused on the most there has planted almost 2000 churches in the last 15 years. I mean, just explosive growth that the Lord is doing in parts of the world.
Wow. Definitely the need to abide and depend on Christ and spiritual warfare is real. And sometimes it's more intense when you're on the front lines, when you're trying to take the gospel and shine a light where there's never been a light shown the enemy, Satan hates that. I mean, demons fight back. And so we feel like soldiers in a sense of just being wounded some, but ultimately we're not victims.
We're victorious. I mean, through Christ, but a practical thing related to missions, I think is understanding language and culture. That's something you can't really get on a short term mission trip. Maybe you learn one word or one phrase, but there's a big gap. Even if you're sharing the gospel, depending on the worldview of the people you're sharing with, they may not really be understanding the words that are coming out of your mouth. And so by God's grace, we learned a local language and that helped us to really understand.
They had terms and concepts that have no English words for. And so just to understand the worldview of where they're coming from and trying to get the gospel at the core to replace that worldview through salvation and discipleship, that's what ultimately will change people's lives and communities. So when you did that for a while, you're back, but now you help other people who want to do foreign missions. Is that right?
Yeah, that's right. So in my role as missions pastor, I'm helping people in our church, but also other churches as well. So, uh, just two nights ago started this year's cohort. It's like a nine month cohort of people who are praying about being missionaries. So there's 10 people in the group representing four different churches. Sure. And so we did this, uh, Mark Gilbert and I co-led it last year, took eight people through it and taking some of those people on the mission trips as well, saying, Hey, come with me.
So I think there's, there's two different things. One is trying to minister broadly to people. There are, uh, things that I do, whether we're having the IMB president, Paul Chittwood preach at Calvary on December 4th. Sure. Preaching to thousands.
Okay. That's important. But then drilling down deep with the few that are really committed to exploring what Christ is doing in their life. It's a both and.
It's both of them. And the, uh, you know, I wanted to tell you guys a little bit about he's, uh, Matt, if you want to be able to meet Matt, he's going to have these books with him. Uh, and you're actually going to be bringing a friend of yours possibly from Southeast Asia.
That's right. To the revival, uh, November 4th at 6 PM at Cox, Toyota and Burlington, November 5th at 5 PM and November 6th at 5 PM as well. Um, but when he's there, I think, you know, if, if you guys have any questions for him, I'm sure you're going to have some questions because there is a lot in this book, but definitely pick up this book. It's called master life together, a discipleship experience for small groups, but Matt and Alison will Willis, uh, well, I would say, think of who you know, who you respect, who is a follower of Jesus and ask them to have a conversation with you soon. Now there are no perfect people. There's no perfect church. So we, we admit that, but hopefully we're becoming more like Christ. And I think most people who decide to make the best decision of their life, which is give their life to Christ really does it in relationship. They know a follower of Christ.
And so say, ask them to go out for coffee or for lunch and just tell them where you're at and yeah. Ask them, Hey, what could I do to be saved? Why are you saying, tell me your story. I think there's plenty of Christians that are wanting to share their story.
They just don't know who's really open right now. Please, please, please share your faith with others. People are dying and going to hell. Please tell them the good news about Jesus that he saves.
If not for God. All right. For my YouTube channel, if not for God with Mike Zwick, just like subscribe and hit that notification bell.
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