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June 22, 2022 8:30 am
Mike Zwick and Robby Dilmore "The Christian Car Guy" interview Cameron Horner from "Cameron Horner Ministries". Stay tuned for a great discussion on eschatology and amazing personal stories from all three on the matter.
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We actually have a couple of national guest and one of them.
I wasn't sure if he was showing up. You guys haven't heard from them in a little while. My good friend Robbie Gilmore, the Christian car guy and we also got a very special guest from a Burlington, North Carolina, Cameron Warner Cameron Horner actually grew up in in Burlington.
I believe his mother Joanna Warner is big into big into evangelism is and so was his sister) yeah, it's funny, a whole family that radically came to the Lord at different times in different ways and cool to watch just the various ministries flourish over the past decade, and my mother story goes further back than that, of course, you and from my standpoint, my those longtime listeners. The Truth Network they would know that disciple magazine was Cameron Harmer's PO show on that used to be on Saturdays that was connected to kingdom pursuits and then disciple magazine came on.
Right after that is cool then actually me and my mother both had a show on that. That's right, that's right. What was first called, some with kids of this article.
It was walking God's path forgotten that it was God's path that Messiah's path is funny because I know it we were to talk about this too much but you know were were big here on. If not for God with Mike Zwick were big on being pro-life it and so what I thought about being pro-life I thought of a great example of why you would be pro-life would be Cameron Horner. You know so many times I've heard that people decide not to have their baby because the baby may have down syndrome or because the baby may have some sort of a birth defect or something like that. But was it 10 or 11 years ago. What happened yet in and half years ago August 2011 I had a diving accident and broke my neck and have been paralyzed ever sense. Like you said we weren't going here, but I deftly resonate with that because the ideas if the baby is going to be disabled. We need to get rid of them and the Lord decided not to get rid of me, but to allow me to live on disabled and has used my injury for a lot yet instant connection I don't I don't think in terms of abortion that way very much but yeah it's it's very interesting that you, you state that and I am into because you know I teach special needs and if you been in my class on Sunday and empty in our class or summer in their 60s and 70s and usually people down syndrome.
The last live that long. Unfortunately, but a lot of them do.
And like if you could hang out with these guys like oh my goodness like you know that they can worship the Lord is only they can worship the Lord. They can see God. Munich is really talking about eschatology and a lot of the stuff about and I will help people see God. But what a cool group. Their theology is very unique and very beautiful and very simple. You know like the childlike faith that they have a spectacular sum you don't want to mess up your reverent chance to discuss it with him. Not at all. And so Robbie Gilmore you been on the radio for 20 years, 19 years 17 almost 18. Now you know what the Mike's Wicca away as you know we stretch it out a little bit exaggerate a little bit don't want you know but the guy from Stu Epperson training 47 about us.
There is just excited about everything. The fish was this the but I'd say were actually to be talking about a subject that can be very divisive, but were not talking about the subject to be divisive were talking about the subject because we think it's an interesting subject and with everything that's going on in the world, especially since 2020 and what year I start the radio 20/20 fairly set ever since 2020 people had just wanted to talk about eschatology was eschatology. It's a discussion of Anton's what's gonna happen right before Jesus returns or or as some people seem to think or were in the millennium right now or or or whatever it is, but I wanted to preface the whole show with this that Robbie, one of the that the men who really helped you grow in the Lord and in you are actually dying of cancer was somebody who believed in all millennialism as I write down longtime pastor at Rinaldi Presbyterian was a spectacular man by name Richard little and he happened to go by the dealership 1996 when I had lymphoma killer cell lymphoma actually and said that he had felt the Lord press on and that somebody wanted to that needed to be healed, that at the dealership that day and so he came in my finance managers when he told him that ghost went to Rinaldi at the time and said oh you must mean Robbie. He's back in his office. He won't come out because he looks like a freak because he's covered in these tumors and so he came show the idea that I was a baby believer and I certainly did not have the faith to be healed at all. You know, I thought the guy was not cancer may not this manic point. I'm on my head. Why is he doing this exactly as I know anything about that and he was laying hands on me and he was praying what I did know was he was very sincere and you know at this point time.
I'm really scared, so whatever this guy has whatever's going on. I'm going along with it. But as he prayed. I felt something different and and then no doubt that was on Friday and then Monday when I went to go get my chemotherapy treatment that day when I woke up I had not a tumor on me anywhere, and course are a lot of people friends are never knowing if it was accumulation affected pastor little just was put the put it on the edge or how it all worked. What I know is I woke up that morning and I didn't have any tumors in Baptist hospitals amazed took lots of pictures.
Knowledge stuff and as I got to know pastor little better and better and I began to understand his theology had some of the most beautiful views of Anton's of ever's way of explaining it was different than any paper you want people to say millennium, they put them in a group and this is the way that they checked at the B meaning that they believe the that the thousand year reign is happening right now is what millennium really is, and it's a spiritual right right at by the same token he eat you know if you went to Rinaldi at the time you know they spoke in tongues. The stuff in the service at Mensa click now. He was very open to discuss that with you, which you won't find a lot of people are open discuss it and eat eat eat eat cake out there for you is that a lot of that's mumbo-jumbo is, you don't know which is the mumbo-jumbo in which is the real thing Robbie so you just you just got it now when he had such a beautiful loving know it at that time in Winston-Salem. There were three or four pastors. It does have the phenomenal grace and and we were very blessed we are very blessed to have him. Pastor Marquart speak like that there eschatology would been trained that dynamically different but amazing amazing brothers.
It says that the the point there is that you initiate a story about God doing a miracle for an all millennialist you could say the same story about a post-millennialist and a premillennialist and somebody hated and have eschatology so that I think the point there is it God really cares, but it's is not as high on his on his list of priorities. As we might think what you're eschatology is he still still loves the body of Christ, and he still wants unity around his son despite what you're eschatology is so you as we enter into this discussion. I think we went to have this counted to preface that this is not something to divide around now there's implications that perhaps could be divisive.
Any even dangerous, that we might want to fight about, but overarching Lee that the three primary views of eschatology are not something to divide about, but something to sit down with coffee with somebody in discussing and say look, let's unify around the important stuff in eschatology.
While it is important again is not something to divide about sure and so you know it as we try to get into this camera and in it we were talking about this little bit before but what is all millennialism yeah so as Robbie mentions all three of the terms organ use all millennialism was millennialism premillennialism every person's gonna have a different definition generally avoid that. It's so unit to all millennialist are going to probably have some points different however there are some broad brush stroke similarities. So first of all millennialism. The name itself means no millennium in millennial sure, but that's a misnomer because they all believe that there isn't, or most who believe there is a millennium, but all millennialism and sees the millennial reign of Christ, which is talked about really only one place in the Bible is Revelation 20 says that Christ will reign for thousand years.
There's a resurrection and pressuring for thousand years. They see that thousand year reign as a metaphor or a symbol for the current reign of Christ in heaven over the saints who passed away so let's say Mike, you know, bless you. You passed away right now.
You went you went to see the Lord in heaven and you your in enjoying heavenly bliss for you know a certain period of time until Christ comes back to to the earth you're enjoying his his his sovereignty and reign in heaven right and so that all millennialist would say what Revelation is talking about is actually that experience in heaven. It's it's a metaphor for Christ's reign in heaven over the deceased saints until the second coming to the earth yet and so I believe you and I are both pre-millennial post-tribulation are Robbie is that what you are as well were you you know about you on the spot. Are you, you know, again I love what the actual young man that did the pointed pastor little to me put it this way. He said you know I am praying pretreated and I'm beginning ready for post-trip, and so I got Scott arise I fall into that camp like I really can't make myself grasp on the idea. Pre-millennial is him. II. I see it I know where it's coming from and certainly love Dr. Jeremiah mean the love. A love love love a lot of the people to teach it and fetch pastor court started already said premillennialism. I'm sure as I got it yet. Sorry Jan deftly premillennialism the artist consent uses terms all that often. I'm just a car salesman over and that is at college and you know that I so yeah I am premillennial, but as far as true I am. I am probably opposed to River ranking, but he's coming you know after the tribulation, but I do know again if he showed up him him good to anybody, but he left behind around here before the tribulation occurred were good to go. You know that in the that pretrade I think you know really started got big in the 1830s there was a lady named Margaret McDonald and she either she was in a trance, or she had a vision and she said were not to be here for the tribulation and appellee was getting Edward Irving who remembered that and he kinda ran with it and then it going going going from one person to the other and then there was a gentleman by the name of Schofield and you've probably heard of the Scofield Bible and he he ran with it and then he was a he started off, I think it is an attorney general that the youngest one in the state at the time, but then he he was under a cloud of fraud.
He he had to leave left his wife and is a big heavy drinker, when he admitted all of this so this is not this is nothing new.
But he that afterwards he got he got saved he got radically saved and try think the guys name who really taught him that he bought into this whole pre-tribulation rapture idea and so he would go around and in he he would start teaching this and he would give the credentials that he had ADD a Dr. of Divinity out nobody's ever been able to verify that that's the put it very nicely.
And they've never found that he actually was a doctor of anything but that's what he did and he what he was. He was very influential on in and in getting the whole pre-trip idea out there. Dwight L. Moody was big in the pretrade and then you know once I think the 1900s came around, and that that idea became really big and then there was a book that came out around while cost was 1970 able to say and it was the late great planet Earth is in the 80s maybe I'm wrong. I think that book was in 1970 your salad okay and the reason I say that is I'm too young to know that that's okay. There is a there is getting through score he's at Presbyterian any explains all this but he a he was talking about he said I went to go see how Lindsay got to read this book he says he's not.
I don't know when Jesus is coming back.
This is how Lindsay he said, but if he wasn't back by 1975. I would be shocked and this was right around the time of 1971 and verse chorus and will you know what supportive going back to school because he was a pretrip earth to die that well, but he talked about Israel and in that book, and he I think he said the latest that Jesus come back as 1988 on it had something to do with Israel and this and that but I that's that's kind of worried that belief is and and and a lot of people are actually walking away right now you from my the pretrip belief now we talk a little bit about all millennialism post millennialism is a little is similar to all millennialism right but there's a little bit of a different game yet so some people say that they're the same views this just the all Melinda Leah. All millennialist is more pessimistic in the post millennialist is more optimistic meaning. So whereas all millennialist they saw the thousand year reign of Christ as a metaphor for Christ's heavenly reign over his saints.
The post millennialist would see the thousand years. Again, this variation, but the thousand years as something that were actually presently in were in the millennial reign of Christ, but it's not in heaven it's in is on the earth.
So whereas a premillennialist which is what we are, where you see things not necessarily get better and better until Christ comes back where actually can be some revivals are to be some incredible things God does. But in the end, there's gonna be great suffering and things are generally going get worse before Jesus comes back the post millennialist actually believes that we as a body of Christ. Partner with God through the Holy Spirit to turn to basically Christianize the earth and as I continue to get better and better until golden age, which is when all the earth is Christian denies the Golden age last for a certain period of time.
Some say the golden ages of thousand years and then at the end of the Golden age, Jesus comes back and actually received the affected earth, so to speak.
Now not perfected in the sense that like everything is perfect is no more death or sickness, but everybody essentially has heard the gospel and is turned to Christ and then Jesus comes back and so suffering is not removed from that view, but is definitely downplayed so some post millennialist would say that the kingdom expands through the suffering of the saints, but it's definitely not a major tenet of post millennialism because it lets face it, things are getting better and better until Jesus comes back while obviously.
And you can just turn on the news and could see that things are getting better and better). The interesting thing about the view from my perspective as I just am looking at it from men in both Mikan and Cameron know how much I love the Jewish community and study you know called listed ideas in all this thing that there are doing a talk about their eschatology of you know of of the devout Jew is that they they are constantly working towards, meriting becoming a machine and so it's it's like that post. In other words, you were partnering with God in order to make the world a place where she can come in and that that that would merit, which is kind of a scary thought that when you think about that. Wow. You know that you get the idea that tradition is gonna bring in and of the Mysia apartment you know and and so that's kind of a an interesting thing that you do see as you stand back and look at it, but there are people that obviously from their perspective dearly, dearly, dearly love God dearly, literally, love the tour the Bible and all this and and and they have caps those things for us in so many different ways that we would never have the understanding that we have today. Had they not kept it that way yeah and it's funny you mention that Robbie because that tendency goes all the way back really even before well although Dr. the Pharisees will say because the pharisaic movement which actually we would resonate with a lot of the pharisaic movement, and they've been really dragged through the mud and Christian tradition, but the Pharisee movement really was similar to and in their beliefs and hopes to what Paul preached and what Jesus preached the difference was this, they believed that to gain the kingdom you needed to have pristine righteousness and poor obedience.
And what Jesus in the unit that's that's a supplied answer for but would Jesus came along to do was to confront that tendency, and say actually you're not can I gain the kingdom through your righteousness. You have to wait in humility in in a position of taking up your cross and you have to wait until I do the work of bringing the kingdom of that same tendency though to figure out all these different ways of how working to bring the kingdom of Messiah to the earth that same tendency was picked up in Christian tradition very quickly. Actually and you know Constantine. By the time to get to the Constantine shift then basically the kingdom of God becomes the church on the earth and delete to the Crusades and all these different they have because they made really the whole idea is beautiful to to study Ecclesiastes.
The idea of under the sun, and it all actually started with came okay is now came cloud the earth because he wanted to help God you know make a better crop that was the whole reason is offering wasn't accepted right and so it's the idea of toiling under the sun.
My toilet to make this happen. Well, that's a trap enabled in the fall into that trap and his brother got so mad at him. He killed you know and and and under the sun. Ever since this is you read the book of Ecclesiastes and then again in the beginning of song of Solomon. You have the same thing my brothers family was mad with me. They made me keepers of the vineyard under the sun, and I even like and we are talking about YouTube downloads here just not long ago like SSL is only everything that we get done everything you know they want to tempt us these Bible apps that that's you and tell you always. This year your six day in a row. You know they're there trying to get you to toil under the new state how you could earn it, but somehow you get a merit and and it just, you know God to look at it that way yes at the and that is good city that this is this is the what are some of the problems with our millennialism and post millennialism in your opinion yeah so you this is really the crux of the issue that a number of things. The first one though that honestly my mind is a go to first but I realize it's probably the most important and I think the foundational one is that the glory of Jesus is at stake, and here's what I mean post-millennial view is probably the one that I have the most trouble with all millennialism into which I can almost, same without one a little bit more, but the post-millennial view that we are partnering with God to exit bring about the restoration of all things, and partnering with God to bring about new creation.
The problem with that is as great as that as that may sound. The problem with that is that it is the glory of Jesus alone to bring her a about if they are not even that is that is like part of what God said you are worthy, so I'm going to allow you to do this. Elements are one text that all our readers and honestly this theme is all through the Hebrew Bible into the New Testament. But Isaiah 60 3435 this is basically the Messiah is speaking, what is the Messiah speaking the day of vengeance was in my heart and my year of redemption is calm. I looked but there was no one to help, and I was astonished and there was no one to uphold. So my arm alone brought me salvation and my wrath uphold me so you have his picture and this is the only place of it is Jesus's glory that is being exemplified and displayed when he comes to do the day of the Lord and to bring restoration of the earth is actually essential part of his glory now you know the post millennialist millennialist would reply will not mean it still Jesus doing it but is doing it through us and I understand that but what I want to say is that there is no part that were going to play in that because this was reserved purely for Jesus. So were not reestablishing the garden were not overturning the curse were not doing these things because that is that is reserved for the glorious Jesus when he comes so that that's the first problem that I see is that you were called to do so many things in the earth right now, but none of those things are going to be doing the things that only Jesus is worthy to do when he comes, and in Isaiah 9 where he knows you know the famous and handles Messiah's sake got that fit because what devalues their fix to save Rhonda as a child is born under his son is given the first before that is spectacular and Hebrew. You don't see as much in English, but neighborly to blow your mind because what it says in English every battle of the warrior is with confused noise and garments rolled in blood, they shall not be a burning for the fuel of fire will Hebrew. What that's actually saying is the victory cry of the warrior. In other words, he's just been victorious. Not with my help. By the end with eight earthquake. Okay, and garments rolled in blood. Okay what garments of all time were rolled in blood. Jesus is right they were rolled. He was literally rolled on them and was there an earthquake that rolled the stone back to Sam, and when you look at that right before it says for under us the child's but then it says that this fire is coming with the fire. From my perspective, and invidious to interpret ongoing with their own is right, but that the tongues of fire, not shortly thereafter right and that burning is going to continue to heat up from my perspective until the Holy Spirit and you know is is bringing Jesus in its own way, which is to me one of the critical parts of any eschatology is is man I want Jesus to come and I wanted to go now and what can I do to help you so that you can be with me and in this view of man. He is the most beautiful thing that ever happened and when we got to get her none minimum. I'm really glad to have Jan and Robbie to Robbie. You have a YouTube channel. That was, well, it started beating why Iraqi Jill Warnock Gilmore DILMORE and Karen, you have one as well yeah you can search similar ministries. I don't do as much on YouTube. There is one site that can find my stuffed annual training network: word.calm and modifications on the site but on one of the trainers there is not RA my YouTube channel. If not for God with Mike Zwick is like driving that notification will be alerted to have our next video, consider joining the Polish Roman Catholic Union of America also known as PRC a life PRC life is a fraternal benefit society that offers a variety of different life insurance folios for all stages of life.
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