This is Darren Kuhn with the Masculine Journey Podcast, where we search the ancient paths to find ways that God brings light into a dark world and helps set men free from the struggles that we all face on a day-to-day basis. Your chosen Truth Network Podcast is starting in just a few seconds. Enjoy it.
Share it. But most of all, thank you for listening and for choosing the Truth Podcast Network. This is the Truth Network. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. If Not For God with Mike Zwick. We've got Pastor Dana Coverstone back.
We're doing the second part of Romans chapter 13. And Pastor Dana, it sure is good to have you back. Well, thanks for letting me come back. I appreciate always doing your show.
I appreciate what you're doing ministry-wise out there. And glad to see that little girl is just growing up and getting bigger all the time. Yes, she's in the 40-some percentile for height, but she's in the 90-some percentile for weight, so she doesn't miss too many meals. How old is she now? She'll be six months on March the 8th. They grow up rather quickly.
They do, man. Well, thank you. But anyways, man, I wanted to get right into this, because I believe we have a very important show today.
And I believe some of our listeners are going to hear some stuff that could really change their lives. And so I'm going to look at Romans chapter 13, and I'm going to start in verse 8, and it says, Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet. And if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor, love is the fulfillment of the law. Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep, for now salvation is nearer to us than when we first believed. The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore, let's rid ourselves of the deeds of darkness, and put on the armor of light. Let's behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and debauchery, not in strife and jealousy, but put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust. And Pastor Dana, when I read that, when I look at that, you know, one of the things that I'm kind of reminded of is that I think for so long in America, as Christians, or you see it on Christian TV or so many of the churches, so many people are encouraged, say this prayer, repeat this prayer after me, okay, fine, now you're good, you're safe, you're good to go, whatever. A lot of times they never even follow up with those people. And so basically what they're saying is, you say some prayer, you said some prayer when you were 13 years old, and you can basically live however you want to live, you can do whatever you want to do, sleep with whoever you want to sleep with, but you're okay because you said that prayer when you were 13, but I don't know about that.
What do you think? I agree with you, and here's the point. In Philippians chapter 1 verse 27, Paul said, Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel, so that whether I come or see or remain absent, I may hear of what you're standing firm in the Spirit, one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel. In other words, he says, we should all walk in a way that glorifies God. Also, in chapter 3, Paul begins to talk about you, he says, I count all things to be lost and view the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ. You know, to know him and the power of his death and resurrection, verse 10.
This idea that we can say a prayer and live however we want is not biblical. And Jesus made the statement, he said, you want to be my disciple? You deny yourself.
You take up a cross and you follow me. And the denial means, you stop living for the flesh. You stop letting those things lead your life, guide you. In 2 Corinthians chapter 10, Paul says to take every thought captive.
In other words, he is saying, you can't just think how you want to think. You've got to make sure that the thoughts coming through your mind glorify God. So Paul's whole principle was, walk in a manner that glorifies God.
Walk in a manner worthy of his calling, walk in a manner worthy of who he is. We live in a world where in the church world, a lot of people talk about all the hypocrites. Well, the hypocrites are people who are not actually living for Christ. They're living a lie.
They're living the life that they want to live. In other words, Romans 1 comes to play because they've made God their own image. And they say, well, I can live however I want. And Jesus says, no, you have to live by how I want.
And that's what the word says. So that, deny yourself is when you fight the flesh. And that means you're not living together and having sex before you're married. The Bible says marriage bed is undefiled. That right there says that sex before marriage or outside of marriage is a violation of God's word. And God cannot and will not honor that. The denial of self comes in saying, I'm not going to look at this stuff. I'm not going to say these things.
I'm not going to have this attitude. But then he says, take up a cross and follow me. And the thing about that cross, there's only one thing you do on a cross, you die on it. So when he said, deny yourself and take up a cross, Peter, James, and John, those disciples, hearing that verse, are probably thinking, oh my goodness, he's asking for a life, he's asking for a total surrender. And that's what Christ expects. He doesn't say, give me half of your heart, he says, give me the whole thing.
He doesn't say, you know, give me 98%, he says, give it to me all. And so, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me becomes the main principle that we've got to preach and teach. We cannot live just however we want.
And God's word is very clear on that. You know, you go back to the Old Testament times where the people began to say, we want a king like every other nation. Even corporately, Israel was saying, we want to be like Glam, we want to have a king. We don't care about what your word says about, you know, government and structure. We want to have a king like everybody else, so God gave him a king.
And that king started them down a wrong way path. And so, always as your leadership goes, your nation goes. It comes down to the spiritual principles. We as believers are supposed to be an example of who Christ is. We as believers are supposed to live by his standards, his word, his will. And we're not supposed to compromise it, water it down, we're not supposed to just get by. God expects us to excel.
The Bible says, whatever your hand finds to do, do it all through the glory of God. Anything and everything that we handle, we touch, we do, we're involved with, we're to do it with excellence. We're to do it with great integrity. I agree with you there because in here in Romans chapter 13, it says, you know, let us behave properly as in the day. Let us behave properly. In other words, Paul is saying, hey, that's not the way you're supposed to live.
I can even take you to another passage. In 1 Corinthians chapter 6 and verse 9, Paul says this, and I want to end up in verse 11. He says, do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Unrighteous means the people who are practicing sin, doing what they want, living how they want.
Will they go to church or not? They shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And I love this next verse. Paul says in the Corinthians church, he says, and such were some of you. In other words, Paul says, some of you were liars and fornicators and homosexuals and thieves and drunkards, but not now. Such were some of you, past tense, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God. In other words, Paul says, but you got saved and you changed your life and your whole world turned around because you changed some things. So Paul makes it very, very clear in chapter 6. He says, do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God and that you're not your own? For you have been bought with a price, therefore glorify God in your body. So those people that say, I can do what I want, I can live how I want, not according to God's word, not according to what Paul said, not according to the standards that Jesus said, because that denial part, that's an every day for the rest of our lives part of our discipleship. That's it, and you know, 2 Timothy chapter 4 verse 3, it says, for the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires.
And what I get from that verse is, if people want to sleep with whoever they want to sleep with, basically what they're going to do is they're going to find a pastor who's going to preach, it's okay to live this certain lifestyle. And it's okay to do whatever you want because you said that little prayer or whatever, but I've actually studied revivals lately. I've studied many, many revivals, and what I've seen in pretty much every revival, there's been two things, Pastor Dana. The first thing is there has been fervent prayer. Christians have gotten together and prayed for revival. The thing is, is repentance.
If people feel sorry, they're crying out to God. I mean, when you look at Jonathan Edwards, when he was preaching sinners in the hands of an angry God, he actually had to stop in the middle of the sermon because people were weeping so loud. So I don't understand, how can you preach the gospel, how can you look at the whole New Testament and say, no, it's fine, you said some prayer, that's the end of it. For me, and I don't know if you're like this, but when you say that prayer, when you accept Christ into your heart, or when you give your life to Christ, that's just the beginning. Yeah, and when I pray with people, I always ask them, I kind of lead them in this way, I say, repeat that, Lord Jesus come into my heart and help me to live for you.
And we immediately get involved in discipleship and things like that. But there's another verse, chapter 3 and verse 5, he says, There are people who will hold to a form of godliness, although they've denied his power. And then Paul says, Avoid such men as these. And that's why we have churches that are, if there was fire in the pulpit, there'd be no ice in the pews. I heard that when I was in Bible college, and a missionary quoted that.
But the point is, there's a lot out there that look really good. They look like they've got it all together spiritually, but they have no power, they have no authority, they have no Bible knowledge, they have no commitment to Christ. They go to church, they check it off the box, and they go home.
And they live one way on Sunday morning, and another way Monday morning and the rest of the week. And so what we have in the church, we've got a week anemic church, that's more interested in taking care of itself, having itself on the back. And a lot of folks have this idea that, you know, God's not going to allow his judgment to come to the American church, because we've done so much. But the Bible said, Peter told us, that judgment will come first in the house of God.
You know, we'll be the first ones to judge in that sense. And so, what God's trying to say, he's trying to wake the church up. He's trying to let them know that we've got to preach the gospel, we've got to teach the truth. We cannot wink at sin.
We cannot just, we have to deal with the issues. As a pastor, I've got to feed my flock, but I've also got to remind them what they should not be messing around with, or dealing with, or doing. I'm preparing right now a series on sexual sin, I'm going to preach probably early, late spring, March or April.
Actually right around the Easter time frame. But I'm going to deal with the issues that are out there. The church has got to address these things, because nobody else is. And there is a theology of sexuality that's in the word of God that makes it clear, that God intends marriage between a man and a woman. And if the book of Hebrews says the marriage bed is undefiled, that's God's way of saying, look, sexual relationships belong between two people that are married, two people that are committed to each other, two people that are going to be there for each other over the years and the decades. And so, even in the church world, there's been a compromising on the theology of sexuality. There's been a compromising on what sin does and does not do.
And sin's not mentioned a whole lot. Look, I'm a pastor, I don't listen to people's messages or sermons. I do my best to preach the gospel every Sunday.
I want to deal with the issues. We dealt with sin this last Sunday in my messages. I will call sin, sin from the pulpit, without worrying about what people are going to be mad about. People leave the churches that I've passed when I've talked about certain issues, especially sexual topics, I've had people get mad and leave because I even addressed it from the pulpit.
I've had people say, oh well, the family should deal with that. There's a whole world out there, a whole nation is lost. And the idea that, like you said, you can say a prayer and you're okay. I believe that people who say that prayer and they mean it, they're going to do their best to live their life for the Lord and change. But if you said a prayer when you were 13, you know, I got saved when I was 15.
So if I said a prayer at 15 and I never changed anything in my life, I never opened the Bible, I never went to church, I never sought what God's planned for, my life would look completely different now than it does today. God expects something. So taking up that cross, following Him, that's what matters. And the pulpit, those of us that are pastors out here, we've got to preach the Word and stop worrying about tipping people's ears and stop worrying about making them mad. I've had people tell me, if you don't preach on this, I'm going to, I'll stop giving my tithe. You better stop preaching about that or I'm going to stop.
And I just say, go, there's the door. I've got to preach what God puts in my heart, I want to preach the truth. And one of the reasons the church is in such a bad place today is because we've not preached the truth, that people aren't responding to the truth, we've not dealt with issues, we let our kids learn all their things about sexuality from their friends at school, the parents won't talk about it. And so we've got ourselves in a place where we've got to address a whole lot of things and don't have really the amount of time to do it, but we've got to get the answers to culture from the Bible. They're asking questions and so we've got to know where to take them and show them what God's words and God's standards are. Yeah, I heard something years ago, they said if you want to know what's going on in the church, they said just look at what's going on in the world and ten years later the church will be doing the same thing. And so, you know, when I read the Word of God it says that we're actually supposed to be the example, that people are supposed to look to us to see, oh, these guys have the answers. As a matter of fact, I believe it's 1 Peter 3.15, it says if anybody asks you for an answer, for the reason of the hope that you have within you, always be prepared to give an answer. But, you know, the problem is, Pastor Dana, is I believe there's many people out there today who are talking about answering questions that nobody's asking. Culture, culture is lost.
We've had marriage redefined, we've had identity redefined, we can look even in the administration that's in power right now, the Department of Energy that was just put in, there was a picture of him wearing makeup and a dress at a banquet or something, and you think, my first thought was, oh my goodness, the people realize not just how ridiculous they look, but what they're doing in mockery. God created male and female, that's what it says, male and female. If I say, well, I'm really a woman, well, what I'm really saying is, I don't like what God did, I don't like what God made, I'm not happy with that. You know, the Bible says that I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
Jeremiah said, you know, before I was born in the womb, God knew me. So, when we're born, whether we were planned or not, whether our parents were married or not, what matters is, God knows who we are, and God has a purpose and a plan for our lives. And everybody out there right now is trying to find things and invite things into their lives that brings them value or brings them purpose. And for the most part, none of those things bring value or purpose.
They're temporary things. And you know, Paul said that the things which are seen are temporal, the things which are not seen are eternal. Those principles are that God's called us to live a life that glorifies Him. And to live that kind of life means that we have to make some sacrifice, means that we may not be doing the things that we thought we were going to do, but we follow His will, His word, and even the example of Jesus in the garden. Father, take this cup from me.
Nevertheless, your will be done. So even Jesus lived that life out, a life of surrender, a life of honoring God the Father, and that's what we're supposed to do. And then Paul said, One day every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. So even when Jesus' name is lifted up and exalted, Jesus says it's all for the Father's glory. It's all about Him. So we've got a lot, there's a lot of ground to cover out there.
A lot of things that we need to be involved with. But the church world has become so compromised and so watered down. Look, God's not known with the church yet.
We're supposed to be light and we're supposed to be salt. And even if, even if, I'm not going to say what percentage, I think the churches are preaching the truth, whatever, I know there's a lot of pastors that are doing their absolute best. They're on their knees. They're hearing from the Holy Spirit. They're preaching the truth.
They're going at it. And I know there are some that are just trying to get by, you know, get through the week. I know there are some fellowship denominations that have become more and more liberal. When I say liberal, I mean leaning towards sin rather than against it. We see that happening. But until I draw my blind breath, I want the Holy Spirit to work in me that I can make a difference. And that I can be, you know, leading the charge. Hey, let's preach the Word. Let's deal with these issues. Let's address these things.
Because the world's asking questions. And obviously they need answers from the Lord of God. So hopefully we as a church can do that. That's my hope and my prayer.
Yeah, mine too. And you know, one of the things that I've seen and one of the things that I thought about recently as we're talking about believing the Word of God and preaching the full Word of God is that there are some denominations out there that say, OK, yeah, we believe the Word of God, but they say that prophecy and healing and all these different things that the disciples were able to do in the first century, they said, well that was just the first century and that can't happen today. But I tell you what, it's funny, I go out and I sell insurance and recently when I've been going out, and I've always prayed for people, but I've prayed for people specifically for specific things. There was a guy yesterday who broke his back. And when I started to pray for him, I said, how do you feel? And he said, I feel better. He said, I can move my toes now. I couldn't move my toes.
Well, if this was just in the first century, how could that happen? I mean, you know, there was another time recently, it's about a week or two ago, I asked Lynn, I said, do you need prayer? I said, I still believe that Jesus heals today. And she says, yes, would you pray for me? And I prayed for her. She said, I can't even see.
And she says, oh, I can see you now. So, I almost wonder, is if we're saying, okay, we're not going to believe prophecy, we're not going to believe in healing, that was just something that happened a long time ago, is it possible that we could be kind of getting rid of some of the tools that Jesus gave us to be able to share the Gospel? Exactly. And you know, if we start saying God doesn't do that anymore, who are we to say that if, in his Word, Jesus said, you know, greater things will you do than I did? Hebrews says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and the day and forever. If you look at 1 Corinthians 13, which is sandwiched between the, you know, two chapters, 12 and 14, about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In verse 8, it says, love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away. If there are tongues, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. Let me ask you this, Michael, is knowledge gone?
No. Knowledge keeps increasing, you know, exponentially, almost every day. You buy a brand new computer off the shelf today, it's already outdated by 8 months to a year, according to some, you know, stats. And so, when Paul says desire the greater gifts, you know, earnestly desire prophecy in chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians, did he say, but just for a while, just until the apostles are gone or just until I'm done, no. Paul was trying to encourage them to be used in the gifts. And you go back in history and you can find opportunities where people were speaking tongues or being used in the gifts of the Spirit over the centuries. All the way into the early 1800s, 1900s, you know, the 20th century, you can see God moving. And a lot of folks say, well, God doesn't move like that anymore. And I think a lot of times they say it because they don't want God to move like that in their life because it brings responsibility. And, you know, you and I are responsible for what we know.
If I know something, I'm responsible for what I do with that information. And if I know that God still baptizes people in the Holy Spirit and that God still does miracles and healing, I mean, the people that say that God doesn't do miracles anymore, then tell me why we hear about all these miracles in Africa or South America or some other foreign countries. I consider it a miracle that one of the fastest growing churches on the planet is in Iran.
And it's led mostly by women. So you think, how in the world does this happen? Because the Holy Spirit gets a hold of people. People who say, okay, God, I trust you to take my life and use it, and He does. And so I still believe that God's given dreams and visions, and not just because I had dreams, but because on the day of Pentecost, Peter, quoting Joel, said, in the last days I'll pour my spirit out. Well, Paul said, in the last days, perilous times will come. Now, we can put those together and say, well, they don't contradict each other, because Peter said, according to Joel, I'll pour my spirit in the last days. And Paul said, you know, there's going to be a great falling away. Jesus said that great falling away, great this, great that, perilous times. But in those type of perilous times, we need the power of God to be at work in us to make a difference. And if we're going to make a difference in the world, then I believe God wants us to walk in the fullness of the Spirit and power. And if people don't want to walk in those gifts, they're welcome not to. But I'm going to walk in them. I'm going to take what the Word of God says, literally, and I'm going to stand on it.
I'm going to stand in it. I want God to use me in the gifts. I want God to use His power to be demonstrated in my life, manifested in my life, so that people see it, feel it, and feel that presence. You know, I've both been in services where the presence of God was fantastic, and we've been in places where we wanted this place to even know who Jesus is. And I want God in my life. And I believe that those that are walking in the gifts, those that are Spirit-filled, and full of the power of the Holy Spirit, that we're going to see some great things done, because we took that step.
We went, we did it. And I think the power of God is still at work. If they want to, they're welcome to not want it, but I want it. I want everything that God has for me. I want everything that God says in the Word is for me to have. And I need those tools, and I need that power, and I need that authority, especially in the world in which we live in today.
So people can choose to believe what they want to believe, but I've experienced it. I walk it. I live it every single day, and I'm thankful that it's real, and I'm thankful to be Spirit-filled. I'm thankful that God uses me in the gifts. I'm thankful that God still does use people all around the globe in the gifts of the Spirit today. I'm grateful for it.
Absolutely, man. You know, I could tell you an example of, when you talk about speaking in tongues, several years ago, back in 2015, I was at a prayer meeting over in Burlington, and this guy named Joshua, who's a real estate agent around here now, we were all getting together, and we were praying for people to be healed, and there was this lady in there who was on drugs. She wasn't a Christian at the time, but she heard everybody speaking, and she actually gave her wife to Christ that night. And so I just saw, I heard the guy, and I saw I was right next to him, and he was speaking in tongues, and at the end of the meeting, she says, Do you know when you were speaking in tongues earlier?
She said, I understood everything that you said. And I tell you what, man, I mean, it's like, to deny that, you gotta, I don't know, I don't get how you can deny the gifts of the Spirit. You know, another thing, too, is that, you know, I do believe, maybe there was a time in this country where you could not be filled with the Holy Spirit, where everybody was a Christian, and it was easy to be a Christian, and maybe you can get by, but, man, when we're facing persecution, like we're seeing right now, I mean, people are getting forced to get these shocks, I mean, or lose their job or whatever, I think it's going to be really hard to stand for Christ if you're not filled with the Holy Spirit, what do you think?
I agree, absolutely, because the persecution that's coming is not just going to get worse, it's going to become, I believe, violently worse. And the reason the power of the Holy Spirit came was to give them boldness and courage, it was to get the gospel message out to the uttermost parts of the earth. And there's still people who have never heard the name of Jesus, still people who have never read the Bible, had the gospel given to them, and Jesus said, you'll be baptized with fire. John baptized with water, but you'll be baptized with fire and power not many days now. And then when he said, when you're baptized and when you're filled with power, you'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth.
That boldness, that bravery is what's going to help us get that gospel out. And I want the fullness of the power of the Holy Spirit in my life every day, because this could open doors of opportunity for me, but also, it assures me I can get the job done. I have the tools that I need to get the job done. Let's say I'm a ripper, and my boss sends me to put a riff on a place, but I have no tools, and I have no shingles, and I have no tar paper.
How can I put a riff on that place? When God gives me the tools, I can do exactly what he needs me to do, whatever he sends me to do. So, I'm like you, brother, I want the tools, and I can't wait to be used in it, and I can't wait to put those tools to work every day, every place I go. So, I want the Holy Spirit fullness in my life so I can make a difference out there.
That's what's going to make the difference. The Holy Spirit in us leading us and guiding us, and Jesus being glorified by everything we say and do. Amen to that, brother, and people are worried about what's going on, people are living in fear, and etc., etc., and oh, by the way, those are a lot of people in the church, but, you know, I think it's an exciting time that we're living in right now. I believe that we're living in the book of Revelation. I believe that we're living in the last days, and so, it talks about in Ephesians chapter 6, where it talks about putting on the full armor of God, and so, I just want to encourage the listeners who are listening today, if you're hearing this, and if you're listening to this, and you say, well, what is this about the gifts of the Spirit?
What would you say to them, Pastor Dana? I would say they need to study the book of 1 Corinthians chapter 12, 13, and 14. They need to find some books on the spiritual gifts written by Pentecostal people. I actually do a podcast every Tuesday called Practical Prayer in the Spirit, and I talk about praying in tongues, praying in the Spirit. I actually pray in tongues on that podcast live every week. I had people who said they've never heard anyone pray in tongues. They've heard all these things about the Spirit, but those people have never heard it.
I talk about the spiritual gifts, but there's all sorts of books and resources, really good things that are out there, and find those things that are available. Pastor Dana, I'm so glad to have you on again. You've got a YouTube channel.
You can find Ed or Dana Coverstone Ministries, or Pastor Dana Coverstone. And you've got a new book out, and the name of the book? Simple Accountability, it's just a 30-year plan that I've had for helping me be accountable, helping me to deal with finishes in my life, the temptations and things I deal with and I face. It's just something I've been doing for 30 years, and I'm hoping it helps a lot of people, especially men, to be accountable and be able to share with others Bible to confess their sins one to another. And this is just a way that I've developed through my life for 30 years, and I hope it's going to help a lot of people. Awesome. Well, Pastor Dana, I'm excited about walking the walk of faith with you as we move along in these last days, and hope we can have you back again soon. We'd love to do that. Thanks for having me now. It's not forgotten. This is the Truth Network.
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