Dr. Michael Brown

This is Chris Hughes with the Christian Perspective Podcast with Chris Hughes, where we encourage our listeners to engage the culture with Jesus Christ. Your chosen Truth Network Podcast is starting in just a few seconds, so enjoy it, share it. But most of all, thank you for listening to the Truth Podcast Network. This is the Truth Network. Welcome to If Not For God, stories of hopelessness that turn to hope.

Here is your host, Mike Zwick. If Not For God, today we have Dr. Michael Brown back from the line of fire. He comes on the Truth Network every day from three o'clock to four o'clock, and he has a super, super exciting show on. Actually, today we're going to be talking about his book. It came out in 2019, but man, is it relevant right now. It's called Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

And actually, it's Not Afraid of the Antichrist, Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. And he wrote the book with Craig Keener. But Dr. Michael Brown, what inspired you to write this book? Well, actually, Craig and I were approached by the publisher and asked if we would consider doing this.

Dr. Keener is one of the world's foremost New Testament scholars, super highly respected. And both he and I were saved in churches that taught a pre-trib rapture. For me, I even heard that before I heard the gospel message. And as we studied the scripture ourselves, over a period of years, we realized that that was not taught in the Bible. And we hadn't believed it for decades. But we never divided over it. I've worked with fine Christians who were pre-tribbers all around the world. But when the publisher asked us about writing the book, I knew it was timely. I knew it was important because our view of the end times and the end of the world affects the way that we live today, and our attitude as believers. And I know that Craig has a heart full of love for the body, as do I.

So our goal was not to divide or tear down, but rather to unify around truth and to honestly and openly address what the Bible really says. That's good. You know, it's interesting, Dr. Michael Brown. We had Dr. Michael Youssef on the show earlier, and he—I like what he said. He said, I hear people who believe in the pre-trib, and I listen to that. He said there's people who believe in mid-trib or post-trib. And he says, I've seen all of them. And he's like, I don't really know which one.

He said they all make good points. And so one of the things that we've talked about before on the show is that, look, it's even if you believe that there may be a pre-tribulation, that we're going to be raptured away before anything gets really bad, isn't it good to kind of be prepared if we are here during the tribulation? But, you know, I grew up as a pre-trib.

I was taught it as well. And probably about a year or two ago, I started—I just really got into the Scriptures, and I said, man, I just don't see this thing. But in all fairness to the other side, the pre-tribbers, one of the verses that they'll use is Revelation 3-10. And he says, because you've kept my word, I will keep you from the hour of temptation that's going to come on the whole world. Dr. Brown, does that mean everybody in the church, or what is that talking about?

Well, first thing, let's put it in context. It's written to the Church of Philadelphia at the end of the first century. That's a promise to a specific church at a specific time. Just like in Revelation 2, where Jesus says to Ephesus, if you don't repent and come back to your first love, your lampstand will be removed. Or to Laodicea in Revelation 3, that if they didn't repent, that Jesus would stand up his mouth. This was a promise to the faithful believers in Laodicea that was relevant to them. So there was some crisis that affected the whole world that they were kept from, they were preserved from.

So that's the first thing. Let's put it in context. And interestingly, people who read the book of Revelation and claim that the seven churches are church ages, in their mind the last age is the age of Laodicea. And Philadelphia is prior to that.

It wouldn't work even if it was chronological. The church age of Philadelphia, according to pre-tribbers, happened many, many years ago. But more importantly, this is something really fascinating. The specific Greek phrase there, to keep you from, is used only one other time in the entire New Testament. That's in John 17, where Jesus prays this prayer for the believers.

Father, I don't pray that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. In other words, even if that was a promise to the church at the end of the age, the word is that he will keep us safely right here. If you think back to the children of Israel, the time of the plagues, God poured out his plagues on Egypt, but he kept Israel safe. With Noah, he didn't take Noah out of the world, he gave him an ark to survive the flood that came on the world. The end of Isaiah 26, God tells his people, go in the inner chamber and hide for a while until my wrath passes by.

So the idea that we will be kept from a terrible event, the same language as in Luke, pray that you can escape these things, there are many different ways God can keep us, and many different ways that we can escape. The issue is, does the Bible teach a second coming and a third coming? Or is there one event at which time we would be caught up to meet the Lord as he returns to set up his kingdom on the earth? In 1 Thessalonians 4, when it says that we will meet the Lord, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet him in the air.

That Greek word for meet is often used for, say, when an emperor would come in in the ancient world, or a king or a ruler would come into the city, and the entourage would go out to meet him and then escort him back. That's what's going to happen. I can easily demonstrate that there's one event only, and the rapture and the second coming are one event, it all happens at the same time, and I can also demonstrate through scripture that we will go through challenges, difficulties, but we're made for them. This idea that, oh no, it's going to be terrible, what if I'm here during the tribulation? Believers have been in tribulation since the first century. Are you going to tell me that the Antichrist is going to burn people to death worse than Nero did, or that he's going to behead them worse than Isis did, or that Christians right now who are dying like flies in Nigeria at the hands of Muslim radicals, that the tribulation is going to be much worse for them? You say, oh no, but the tribulation is God's wrath. Even if I accepted that proposition, I've already explained that God can keep us and preserve us while he pours out his judgment on others.

What I've found often is there is an unhealthy escapism. I even heard a message from a nationally known pastor last year at a nationally known church early in COVID saying, hey look, don't worry, this is not going to be really bad, and if it does get bad, we're going to get out of here first. God's going to take us out of here first. That's never happened in church history, and it's not going to happen at the end either.

Yeah, and you know, one of the chapter in the Bible that really kind of did it for me and really kind of made me realize that, hey, I really don't believe this pre-trib thing was reading Matthew chapter 24, and as a matter of fact, there's a verse in Matthew 24, and I will use the NIV. It says, if those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. Well, if the elect are out of here, why would he have to say that?

Right, so now the elect has to become the Jewish people again, and what you have to have is two different groups of people addressed in Matthew 24. It would be as if I was saying, now listen, Mike, I want to talk to you about your future. Listen, Mike, I want to talk to you about your radio show. Listen, Mike, I want to talk to you about your family.

Oh, but the last time I meant a different Mike. No, no, there's no context for it. He's speaking to his disciples, to the believers then, and he's talking about the coming destruction of the temple, and then talking about the end of the age, so two different events all squeezed together in one chapter, and it's very clear. We're waiting for the coming of the Lord in Greek parousia, and yet it says in Matthew 24, after the tribulation of those days, then people will see the sign of the coming of the Son of Man.

It specifically tells us when the parousia is going to come. It is going to come after the tribulation of those days, and the word tribulation in Greek is, it splits this. It occurs many times in the New Testament. It's not some mystical word. It's not some word that just speaks of the end of the age. In fact, it says in Matthew, excuse me, in John 16 33, Jesus says, in this world you'll have tribulation, but be encouraged, I've overcome the world. Paul writes in Romans 8 37, what shall separate us from the love of Christ? And this first thing, tribulation?

No. In fact, in Romans 5 he says that tribulation, going through tribulation strengthens our character. In Acts 14 22, Paul and his colleagues tell the believers in Pisidian Antioch that we must go through many tribulations thanks to the kingdom of God. Craig and I verified this story, but Corrie ten Boom actually shared this, that after China opened, so there is missionary activity going on, Chairman Mao rises to power, foreigners have to flee, the missionaries have to flee, and then China opens up again.

And we were able to verify the story. Corrie ten Boom says that the Chinese Christians were very angry with the missionaries, because when the missionaries came back they said, you told us that if things got really bad we were going to be raptured out, you told us that before all hell broke loose we were going to be raptured out, and we went through all hell right here, and we suffered terribly, we weren't raptured out, that was false teaching. That's my concern, that people have a wrong expectation. Also, with the pre-trib mentality, many believers are completely convinced that things will only get worse from here on until the end of the age. So there's no incentive to bring about change, there's no incentive to pray for revival. They somehow have this notion, well, we must be the last generation and things will only get worse in the last generation, therefore there's no reason to pray for revival, therefore there's no reason to engage in the culture wars, therefore we should just be getting as many people saved because we're out of here any minute. That's what I heard when I got saved 50 years ago, literally 50 years ago, and we're still here. So we need to do a lot of re-evaluating, and I don't mean to insult anyone who holds to a pre-trib rapture some of the finest Christians on the planet hold to it, but we've got to ask a question, did we learn this reading the Bible on our own, or did we learn it from other people? That's right, matter of fact, one of the verses that they'll use, the pre-trib guys, is Matthew 24 verse 40, and it says, then two men will be in the field, one will be taken in the other left, two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken in the other left, watch therefore for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. So two things with that, and the first thing they say is that first part where one is taken the other left, oh, that proves the rapture, we're going to be out of here before it happens. The second part, when they say watch therefore you do not know what hour your Lord is coming, what a lot of the pre-trib guys will say, or girls will say, is that, see, the beginning of the tribulation it's going to be seven years, and I believe in the middle of the tribulation the Antichrist is going to come up and say, I'm God. He said, you can kind of count down to the end of the tribulation and you would know the exact day or hour or the time when it would have happened.

How do you answer that? So first, in Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and the weeds, Jesus tells us that the wicked will be taken in judgment and the righteous will rejoice. So Matthew 24, one will be taken, is likely talking about taken in judgment, not caught up to meet the Lord.

That's the first thing. The second thing is, it's completely ludicrous to think that you're going to be able to know the exact moment, oh, the tribulation just began. I have people calling the show, I believe we're in the tribulation now, or we're in the second year of the tribulation, watch what's going to happen. So it's completely ludicrous to think that also the idea that you've got it all figured out to the day in advance, when the believers with Jesus in their midst and all the prophecies about his birth, his death, his resurrection, they still couldn't figure it out until after he rose and explained it. The idea that, okay, you got it exactly right, you're going to be able to know the exact, aha, this is the moment, now we count three and a half years or something, that's ludicrous as well. But Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5 that we should know the season, we just don't know the day or the hour, but we should know the season. Jesus in Luke says, when you see these things happening, lift up your eyes and rejoice because your redemption is drawing near. So we should know it's getting very, very close, we just don't know the day or the hour. Yeah, I mean, I've actually had people, when I told them I was going to do this show, they said, Mike, you know, I don't know if you want to talk about this, or I don't know if you want to be too controversial because, you know, there's people who have beliefs on both sides, and I said, I understand that, but at the same time, if we could be going through something as serious as the tribulation, and Jesus warns us about it, isn't it something that we should prepare people for? Right, well, the thing is, even putting aside, will there be a specific seven-year period called the tribulation?

Let's not even put that aside. What's our attitude when it comes to suffering and hardship? Is it that we are more than conquerors and overcomers, or is it before things get really bad, we'll be out of here?

What's our attitude? I was shocked to hear this pastor say, yes, I'm an escapist, but I'm a biblical escapist, and we're going to escape before things get really bad. Well, believers in the midst of war around the world have suffered as their country suffered. Tell me, talk to the believers in Syria, or the believers in Yemen, and ask them, were they raptured out before they went through hell on earth and suffered unimaginably in recent decades? Not only so, but ask yourself, what's your attitude in terms of bringing about positive change now? Do you have this thing, the clock's ticking, the clock's ticking, the clock's ticking, we're out of here any minute, and there's no reason to, you know, the schools, everything's going bad, our kids, the future, everything's going bad, is that your mentality, is your mentality that the light will shine brighter and brighter until Jesus comes, which is what Paul says in Romans 13 and John says in 1 John 2, that in the midst of gross darkness, great light will shine.

So the attitude is the biggest thing. As for someone who says, well, you need to be ready for the rapture, I need to be ready to meet the Lord at any moment. At any moment, any of us have to be ready to meet God.

We don't have a guarantee on the next breath. So I live ready to meet the Lord, and I live with urgency because I have only one life. I have only one life to repay my debt of gratitude to the Lord. So that's my heart, that's my heartbeat day and night.

I want to glorify Jesus. Souls hang in the balance every day. I live with a great sense of urgency, but I also live with a multi-generational mentality that I'm doing best to pour into my grandkids, that I'm doing my best to pour into new generations of ministry school students, that I'm doing the best to produce resources that can be used through the generations because we don't know if it's the last generation. We know, as one of my colleagues said, it's our last generation.

That gives me all the urgency I need. What I find interesting though, and again, I say this with love because I was once in this camp, that for some people, belief in the pre-trib rapture is almost as sacred as the gospel. That, in other words, if you're post-trib and someone has a different view, you talk about it. Here's why I believe this. Yeah, don't see it like that.

I disagree. If you hold to a different view of the millennium, of course I believe in the thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth and the restoration of Israel and all of those things, but if you need dialogue with someone with different views on these things, you have your discussion. But sometimes this belief in the pre-trib rapture has become so sacred, maybe because of the novels, the left behind series, the late great planet earth, because of the movies and things like that, that it's so sacred to people that you don't dare challenge them.

When our book came out and we started doing interviews on it, Dr. Keener and I, the reaction from some people was if it's as if we had slandered their grandmother. I mean, they took it so personally, it was so angry, you're a false prophet, the heretics. Hang on, nobody in the early church ever heard of anything. No prominent Christian leader ever taught this and no one ever heard of it, the whole system where it's laid out until the 1800s and now you're going to make it this sacred untouchable thing.

Something's wrong there, that hypersensitivity is wrong there and we need to find out, okay, why? And why so much emphasis on the tribulation and not a billion times more emphasis on hell? I'd rather go through a million tribulations than one hell and yet we tend to preach, get saved to avoid the tribulation. So there's just a lot built in here we need to unpack and re-examine.

Yeah, and that's really good. One of the things that I've heard a lot of people talk about with the tribulation is that it, you know, they say it's going to be this horrible time where all these horrible things happen and it's just going to be horrible for Christians, but could there be some light? Could there be some good things that happen in the tribulation as well, Dr. Brown? Well, according to Revelation 7, if we take this as depicting the great tribulation, it speaks of a multitude that no one could number from every people on the earth coming with blood-washed robes into God's eternal kingdom, into God's heavenly kingdom. If we read it like this with 144,000 Jews, which I understand is typifying the fullness of Israel being saved that Paul speaks of in Romans 11 26, that it will be the greatest time of harvest in world history, which means it would be the greatest time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in world history. This notion that the Holy Spirit is taken from the earth because the church is taken from the earth and the Holy Spirit's in us and he's the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2, and you remove the spirit and all hell breaks loose.

If the Holy Spirit's left the earth, then how is it that more people will be saved then than any other time in church history? So you better believe, as it says in Isaiah 60, that when gross darkness covers the earth, great light shines on Israel, and great light shines on Israel because the nations are coming into the fullness of the gospel like never before. So it will be the best of times and the worst of times, side by side. It's funny you say the best of times, the worst of times. I actually was spending time in prayer, and I received that specific word, it's going to be the best of times and the worst of times, and you and I had never even talked about that before.

Well what's funny is I don't remember ever describing it like that until this moment. Wow, wow. There you go, we have our holy little moment there.

Wow, there you go. Meant to tell you, so you wrote this book with Craig Keener two years ago, and the last book that we wrote was about weight loss, and now we're talking about the tribulation. What's the best way for people to pick up this book, Dr. Brown? They can of course get all our books on my website, askdrbrown.org, A-S-K-D-R brown.org, otherwise they can just go to christianbook.com or Amazon, wherever they order their books, and this book is going to be, every year that goes by it's going to be more relevant.

It's one of these books that's not going to get less relevant, but more relevant, and Craig did a masterful job, he's such a brilliant scholar, but he broke things down simply, clearly, anyone can read it, and above all, above all, you're going to be edified and filled with hope as you read. Yeah, you know, one of the things that I thought about is everybody right now is talking about this vaccine and they're talking about the Antichrist and stuff like that, and in the book, the title, you actually say not afraid of the Antichrist. We had a friend, Sharon, she had a question about this, and she says, who do you think the Antichrist would be, Dr. Browner? Where do you think the Antichrist would be coming from?

Is it Islam? Honestly, I don't know. I've seen arguments that he'll be Jewish, hence a false messiah, that he'll be Islamic, the one that the Muslims are looking to as the Mahdi.

I've seen arguments that he'll be a European leader, killer. Honestly, I don't know. If there is a way to know if the Bible does tell us, then I'm not sufficiently convinced of which way the evidence goes. It's interesting to speculate, but what we do know is in 1 John 2, it says that even now, so right to this day, there are many Antichrists among us. So that's the real issue, the Antichrist spirit and attitude that we're dealing with. And by the way, the publisher chose the title Not Afraid of the Antichrist. I simply wanted to title it Why We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I'm not insulting any pre-tribbers who say we're not afraid of the Antichrist, we just believe what the Bible says, and there are many beautiful reasons for believing in a pre-trib rapture, and it's a rich and precious doctrine, and it goes back to the Bible itself.

God bless you, may the Lord continue to lead you and lead me as we study together. I have found, to be candid though, many speak of the tribulation as if they're terrified of the thought of being there, and no believer should ever fear anything about the future if they know the Lord. No matter how terrible, no matter how horrific, and we know that believers have been through, and to this moment, are living through hell on earth, God with us is more than enough. He will keep us, He will preserve us, and we will be with Him forever, and that's our hope in the midst of pain, suffering, and difficulty.

That's it. You know, one of the verses that I look at is 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 3, it says, Let no man deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come, unless there come a falling away first, and that a man of sin, that the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. So, seems to me like the Antichrist is going to come before Jesus comes back, but... Yes, absolutely.

It's the right way to read that first. Some have tried to say, well, it's not talking about the rebellion, but the Greek word is something about the departure. It means the departure of the Church, the Rapture.

Absolutely not. There's not a major Greek dictionary on the planet that interprets it in that way. It's speaking about a final rebellion. We will be here to see that. We will see many come to faith.

We will see many fall away. We will see the Antichrist, and we will see his destruction when Jesus returns. Remember, it's the coming of the Lord. We're going to be gathered at his coming.

That's what it says there, right? And then a few verses later, it says that the Antichrist will be destroyed with his coming. They're not a second and a third coming. They're not two different comings. There is one second coming. It is when we are gathered to meet the Lord. It is when he comes to destroy the Antichrist.

It will happen at one and the same time. Dr. Brown, well, thank you so much for coming on. The name of the book is Not Afraid of the Antichrist While We Don't Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Guys, there's a lot of books that we talk about, but this is one I think you definitely need to get. You can get the book at AskDrBrown.org.

AskDrBrown.org. And Dr. Brown, you come on every single day, The Truth Network, at three o'clock. And we're so grateful for you here at The Truth Network. We've got Robbie Dilmore. He's over here excited that you're on the phone. We've got Stu Epperson. He's always excited.

Stu Epperson is looking forward to hearing the show. And thank you so much, man. God bless you.

My joy. Keep up the good work. God bless. All right.

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