This is the Truth Network. Welcome to Hip Not For God. Stories of hopelessness that turn to hope. Here is your host, Mike Zwick. All right, this is If Not For God with Mike Zwick.
Is Pride Month a good thing or is it a bad thing? We've got Stephen Black, and I met Stephen. It was over at NRB several years ago. But Stephen was with a group of people who, and I think it was Laura. Was there a girl named Laura?
Is that right, Stephen? You got two ladies named Laura, actually. My former staff, yes. Your former staff, and but you're with a new ministry now. What's the name of it?
Corum Deo, it's the Latin meaning in the presence of God, living in the presence under the authority of God for the glory of God.
Okay, so what do you do? Yeah. Pastoral care and discipleship, public speaking on areas of really the integrity of the soul to live, discipling the soul. To really be in full consecration and full consecration and fully surrendered to the Lord. What does it mean to walk as a disciple?
Well, and and and I was talking to you before, there was recently uh some news that came out, and it was the leader of a former ministry that you were a part of, and uh it it wasn't good, is that right? Yeah, it's terrible what's happened. And I really kind of understand the background to why it would happen. And the same thing, like, you know, we've got Sam Alberry, who was the, you know, the gospel coalition darling. Robbie Zacharias' darling.
And then you have Alan Chambers, who was the failed former. Uh president of Exodus. Who was recently arrested in an undercover sting operation? And the detectives were posing themselves as a 14-year-old, and Alan believed he was chatting with a 14-year-old, even called it forbidden love. And they were, he was literally wanting to draw this young man in, he thought, a 14-year-old, and go and have sexual relating with him.
And when you understand some of the problems behind why people go back. Why they fall away in regard to any sexual addiction, you understand that the root causes and the problems of a person's history, their trauma, A lot of those inroads to demonic oppression have never been dealt with thoroughly. You know, and a lot of people are talking about this, Stephen. But you said that there was a time where Alan Chambers was going in the right direction. Is that right?
Yeah, you know, I think he probably had a journey of appropriate, I want to say around 20 years. After, you know, especially now after post-Exodus, he and Clark Witten. And you know, that board at that time brought down Exodus under the. The blanket and deception of antinomianism, which your listeners may. Have heard it taught as hypergrace, or what is perverting the grace of God into like Jude 1-4.
I call Clark Witten a Jude 1-4 man because he really has perverted the grace of God to present lasciviousness and has even joked about it from a platform in 2008. I was the guy behind the scenes as the ministry. Chairman, Ministry Council, excuse me, Ministry Council, which was a disempowered board. After Clark Witten helped Allen skillfully take over the board of directors by changing the bylaws, the directors of the parachurches were no longer really in authority to say or do anything. And so then Allen was able to have Exodus as his own 501c3.
Very problematic. With this false teaching, this heresy that comes in, because then a person, as Alan did, announced. That 99.9% of people don't change. And that's why he closed Exodus. and um and his own struggle and his own mind.
He was still gay. Back to Alan, not only was he you know, had a relapse, the police report found out Uh that he had also been um seeking out prostitutes. And so, male prostitutes. And so, yeah, this was an actually ongoing, raging, unrepentant lifestyle. You know, I have a lot of compassion if somebody falls or they, you know, they trip up or somebody tries to seduce them or they, you know, look at pornography, you know, they have a relapse or whatever, heterosexual, homosexual, whatever.
But somebody who wants to now embrace. A mindset. that this is okay. that grace covers it. Uh that is heretical.
And I know this to be true, and I know the struggle, and I have a lot of compassion. As you mentioned, you know, I came to faith in Jesus Christ 43 years ago at age 22.
So you can do the math. And um The revelation and the reality that the Son of God was so real, it changed my life. And my life was completely turned upside down, and that was in 1983. And I saw a lot of things. I lived as a gay man for really ardent, hard for about six years once I got wheels underneath me at age 16.
And Saul A very dark and very perverse world. I was very broken and hungry for Really, which is very true of most. Young homosexual males is their longing for masculine connection that should be healthy, but goes through the filter of sexual perversion most of the time because they've been sexually abused, like I was. Yeah, and a lot of people don't want to talk about that, but the the numbers are pretty staggering, is that right? Oh, yeah.
Now they've gone down a little bit, ironically, and I really believe I know why, and the reason why I even know about some of the stats. Uh After Alan Chambers said that 99. 9% of people don't change.
Well, we at the ministry that I was running before, it was called First Stone, based on John 8:7. We had 25 years of intact client folders. And, you know, I was the director of that organization at the time when I left 22 years. And so I knew a lot of these people. And so we were able.
Um I'm sorry, I don't know if I said 1200 intact, at least 1200, but we had 500 that we were able to contact. Of those 1200. And then finally, about 200 filled out the survey. And there's a survey in my book. Freedom Realized is the book, and it also has its own website, freedomrealized.org.
But the stats showed that. 75 to 80% of the people that came to us felt like they were sexually addicted. And then when they left the ministry after at least one year of counseling and support group, 92% jettisoned a label or an identity that was associated with homosexuality or some form of sexual perversion. And so, you know, that's pretty good stats. But on the abuse issue, what happened is the first 15 years.
We saw that the numbers were up to about 60%. had been sexually molested as children.
Well, the numbers came down after the internet And devices. Because all you now have to do is serve up one of these things. To a child, which is, I'm holding, if you can see, a Mobile phone, and now you can be one click away from the most graphic. Uh X hardcore pornography and pollute the mind of a child. And this is what's happening at a rapid level.
It's rampant in public schools. And that's why even many schools are going to banning cell phones. because the children are defiling one another. I say children, I mean even teenagers in high school.
Well, in our local area in Alamance County, North Carolina, they say a lot of this stuff is even. creeping into the elementary schools. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, it is. And then they, you know, the idea of celebrating pride.
I don't know if people are actually paying attention to the news. Then we're going to hire the drag queens. And have a drag queen, a drag show. Uh four Elementary school kids? It it is absolutely outrageous.
The mindset that is out there that this is somehow appropriate. When even the drag queens themselves, I forget which one, Kitty Meyer, Kitty, something like that. I had a video on my website. And this person is a male, a female. Impersonator said that.
This is absolutely wrong, a drag queen saying this. Because this is adult entertainment.
Well, I've been saying that for years. It's like, do you not understand? These people are like strippers. And you're going to allow the strippers. I mean, what father would allow the Chippendales to come, you know, strip in front of their daughters?
And yet, we're going to allow the drag queens to come in and be Overtly sexually gyrated and perverted in front of children. And that's exactly what happens. That's what's going on right now. And this month.
Well, I've noticed it is, but I've noticed that, you know, I think in the previous administration, they would light up the White House for Pride Month, and they were really celebrating it. But I've noticed in the last, I guess, couple of years you could say since President Trump has been in office, there seems to be more pushback against the LGBT agenda. Have you seen that?
Well, absolutely. President Trump, and I think I would say a majority of his cabinet members and staffing. Um With this whole push against DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusivity, which is really a code for saying we want everything including the plus sign, and people need to pay attention to that LGBTQ, and then they put a plus sign. Even Nancy Pelosi said, and yes, we want to protect the plus sign.
Well, the plus sign is absolutely outrageous sexual behavior. Being a pansexual, having sex with anything with a heartbeat. Or a Uh a zoophilian. How about a zephylion? For those who don't understand, zoo being animals.
And, you know, so this gets pretty outrageous. And of course, I mean, President Trump and even some of his people around him, like the Trump family, are in some ways pro-gay. They don't have a problem. I mean, I've heard Trump talk about, you know, his some of, well, even his staffing, the one guy that's over finances. His name is slipping me right now, but, you know, practicing homosexual in a gay marriage relationship.
So it's not like the Republicans have the, you know, the entire envelopment of righteousness. They don't. Uh but Push back on DEI and realizing that strippers And doing transsexual surgeries on children. Is really crossing the line. And so there has been a whole pushback on the idea of pride.
And I'm so grateful to this president for the first time in decades. We have a president that is actually standing for America and celebrating America rather than perversion. At least. You know, a majority of people. But then, you know, with the Democrats, you have to even wonder if that was really the majority, because they really do cheat.
They do, and I'm sure you heard about what happened in the Los Angeles mayor race recently. Oh, and it continues to develop. Yeah. And then, you know, even in the last election, so many. I mean, caught on camera.
Feeding tons and tons of ballots. That it's just they can't win unless they do cheat. Yeah, and they continue to do that. But we don't give up, is that right? That's right.
Never. Matter of fact, in Psalms 92, I'm reminded and remind some of my peers: you know, I'm 65 and I'm probably in the best health I've been in several years because I, you know, I almost died a couple of years ago and I've really been working on it. In Psalms 92, it says, In our latter years, or even in our senior years, we will bear much fruit, more fruit. And I want to bear more fruit in my 60s and 70s than I did in my 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s. And statistically, it's said that some of our best years of life are our sixties.
That we get more done, and hopefully, that's with some maturity and understanding on how things get done. We have more energy and more stamina when we're younger if we don't take care of ourselves, which I'm working on. There you go. There you go. I'm working on that as well with my health.
But one of the things I wanted to ask you was this: we can sit here and have this discussion, but there are some people, LGBTQ plus individuals, who say, Well, I'm gay and I'm a Christian. And one of the guys who was actually on my Facebook page recently when I was posting about Christians should not be living the gay lifestyle, he quoted the Old Testament and he said, Well, if you're going to believe what it says about the gay thing, where it tells us that do not lie with a man as you would with a woman, and it says that it isn't an abomination, he started to throw out all these other old laws of the Old Testament. How would you respond to that? That's pretty, actually, pretty easy. The Lord, in his magnificent understanding of the world, of diet, of keeping a people group set apart for himself, did have dietary, ceremonial, and even clothing.
I mean, there are things that are listed as abominations that would be in a category that is not soul-defining damnedability. And what I mean by that is, there are certain laws of God, like the Ten Commandments. Um and moral law Has never changed. It's reiterated in the new covenant. And my go-to verse is Ephesians chapter 5.
And if I may, I'd like to just quote this because I think this is extremely important. Ephesians chapter 5. And I mean, the whole chapter is important, especially the first part. But let me just read from verse 3 to 7. It says, But you can know this: fornicators, all uncleanness, covetousness, let it not even be named among you.
He's speaking to believers as fitting for saints. Neither filthiness Nor foolish talk, nor coarse jesting, neither are fitting, but rather of giving of thanks.
So what comes out of our mouth. But then most people don't really pay attention to verses five through seven. And I like the way the NASB says in verse 5, in New King James, it says, for this, well, it says, know for certainty. And the amplified also hones in on that. In other words, you can know for sure.
that no one who practices fornication Or an unclean, sexually unclean or unclean person, someone who practices filthiness, uncleanness. nor a covetous or idolater who is an idolater. These people are not going to heaven there. It says they will not have any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. And it says right there: let no one deceive you with empty words, like Clark Witten and Alan Chambers, and the Re-Voice movement, and all these gay Christians.
who who say that they can embrace a gay identity and be Christian now There's a caveat here.
Some of these people, I do have to applaud in that they want to remain celibate. And live to the Lord. But their problem is, they continue to embrace. A broken, distorted identity that the psychological world gave us called the orientation narrative.
So if you I mean, Michael, I don't know what you're, you've probably had other guests on that have struggled some way with sexual sin. You know, if a would we call ourselves a porn Christian? or a fornicating Christian, or an adulterous Christian. No.
So why are we calling ourselves, as Wesley Hill called himself, a homosexual Christian?
So, these people are actually keeping themselves in bondage. And like I've said in my book. They have been sowing now for years, and what Alan Chambers did now. over a decade a cruel Bondage. to the minds of our youth, making the youth think.
That just because they find a member of their same sex, that they are somehow. gay and need to pursue that. And this is an alarming rate of what's going on in our public school systems. That they are actually, even at kindergarten level, if a boy seems somewhat feminine or artistic or sensitive, he's labeled gay. Or, if a little girl is really strong and she's boundaried and protected, probably because she's been hurt, and she puts off like a you know a tomboy.
Uh appearance.
Well She's going to be labeled lesbian. I mean, we're talking at kindergarten.
So before they even have entered into puberty, we're labeling these children. And this is such a distortion given to us by the APA. And the American Psychological Association, and even the AMA, the American Medical Association, in their promotion of LGBTQ. plus sign transgenderism where we're mutilating children. Yeah, and well, it doesn't just say it in the Old Testament.
It talks about it in the New Testament as well. And I liked what you said. It's not just gay and lesbian, LGBTQ. It's also, if you say you're a Christian and you're fornicating and you're having sex with your girlfriend or boyfriend, even if it's heterosexual, the Bible says we're not even supposed to eat with that person. If they're, that's right, if they're claiming to be a Christian and living in sexual immorality and they refuse to repent.
And this is one of the things that got called out. You know, the scripture is very clear in Corinthians about, you know, how we're to address sexually immoral people in 1 Corinthians 6, 5 and 6. And, you know, Alan Chambers was confronted. And he kept having these secret meetings with gay activists. Even a person who thought himself to be one of the founders of Exodus, Michael Bussey, and then Justin Lee, who led up the Gay Christian Network when he announced to the world that no one changes.
Well, so his fellowship and our fellowship. The Bible warns we cannot be in fellowship with people and eating with them in a very relaxed environment. And think that their sinful way is not going to rub on us if we are not now being alerted and being very purposeful about presenting the gospel.
Now, Jesus Christ did, in fact, sit down and eat with sinners, but it was not for the purpose of enjoying their lifestyles. It was for the grand purpose of revealing who he was and presenting the gospel.
Now, that can be certainly part of what we are supposed to do as Christians, but it needs to be somebody who is mature and can handle those environments. Like these young people, they get zealously saved and go into bars. And, you know, they're going down to where they shouldn't be until they grow up in the Lord and be able to handle the spiritual warfare. And so, this is part of what has happened with many people who relapse is they don't consecrate themselves to the Lord because it even says right here, as it goes on, it says, Therefore, do not be partakers with them. Why?
Because the wrath of God is on people that are saying they're Christian and gay or homosexual and Christian. And especially if they are ongoing practicing. The sin. Like Jesus said in Matthew 7. But you kept practicing lawlessness.
Now, these people came to him. They said, Lord, we did this. We preached in your name. We cast out devils. But he said, But you kept on practicing lawlessness.
So if unrepentant sin, especially sexual immorality, is ongoing in a person's life. They're not in love with Jesus. Don't have intimacy with Jesus, and that's why Jesus said, I never knew you, depart from me. And that is what's going to happen with many people. And we need to be sounding the warning now, we talk about real love.
Well, where's the bold truth speaking? Because if we really love our family and friends who are gay, we need to warn them, we need to tell them, and we certainly need to be living a godly life before them and being able to present. Jesus in our behavior. We do. I'm looking at some other verses as well, and it says in 2 Corinthians 5:17, it says, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation.
The old has passed away. Behold, the new is come.
So it says you're a new creation.
So it says to me, if you're not in Christ, you're not a new creation. The old is still there. In First Corinthians 7:2, it says, But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife. And each woman her own husband. It doesn't say each man should have his own husband, and each woman should have.
You're going to say that. And each woman her own wife. And I'm looking on as well. It's 1 Corinthians 6:9 through 10. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. I mean, that's that seems pretty clear to me, Stephen. Yeah, Colossians 3 makes it clear. Romans 1 makes it clear.
Revelations 21 and 22 makes it clear. There are lists of sins and people and lifestyles. Galatians 5:19. And my go-to verse there is even verse 24. Those who truly belong to Jesus Christ have crucified the flesh with its lusts thereof and passions.
And the reality is that a true believer in Jesus, as he says in 2 Corinthians 13, verse 5, examines themselves. They're looking at their own motives and intentions of their heart to see if, in fact, Jesus Christ is in them, unless they fail the test.
Well, yes, can Christians sin or can Christians get in the flesh? Yes, but the growing lifestyle should be being under the control, and I love to say it in the Hebrew: Rauk Kodosh. The power of the Holy Spirit because Rau Kokodosh is not just an ethereal spirit. You know, disembodied power. No, the Spirit of God is a person who is fire, who is the breath of God, who is the life of God, the wisdom of God, the water of God, and yes, the Spirit of God.
And He dwells within us to bring sanctifying power. That's why He's called the Spirit of grace. And people who don't have that going on in their lives, They need to get saved. They do. And in our closing moments that we have, I want to thank you for having us on the show.
Thanks a lot for coming on today. And we'll be back next week, if not for God. All right, for my YouTube channel. If not for God with mighty s wick. Just like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell.
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