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I am your host, Emily Curtis, and I am joined today with Dr. Dale Johnson. And we're going to have a really important conversation today about biblical counseling. That may be a term that you're completely unfamiliar with, or it may be something that you yourself are a biblical counselor. But we're going to be talking about the importance of biblical counseling really in the life of every believer and how that is structured within the church, and just kind of get some of our questions answered today about it.
So, Dr. Johnson, thank you so much for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. Emily, great to be with you. Thanks for the invitation. I look forward to our time together.
Me as well.
So I wanted to start by asking you what led you into the ministry of biblical counseling? Yeah, that's a great question. When I was an undergrad student in college, I was primarily there to play baseball. That was really my goal. And I didn't know what I wanted to do, didn't know what I wanted to study.
So I jumped into business with everybody else, and that didn't go too well, especially in Dr. Pordelli's economics class. And so I found myself in a psychology class that was a part of the the curriculum that I had to take and and I really enjoyed it. I was very intrigued by it. And it was through studying psychology, even in that intrigue.
I was a believer at the time, understood scripture, studied it, pursued the Lord strongly as a college student. And I recognized a couple of things that were very interesting, even about psychology, is that the type of person that they were describing was different than what the Bible describes about human beings. And so it really began to intrigue me. I met with a local pastor. He was asking me about how my classes were going.
And I couldn't articulate it the way that I do now, but I was just telling him, you know, something seems a little off. I'm enjoying this class about psychology, learning about individuals and people and how others have studied. individuals. But I'm just not sure. It doesn't seem right biblically.
And that was about as far as I could go. And he said, you know what, I need to introduce you to a person. And so he gave me actually Jay Adams' second work, which was the Christian Counselors. Manual. And so, from that, I started to devour it.
And I was like, this man is explaining in detail some of the issues that I see with this concept of secular psychology. And so, that started this intrigue, and it was my introduction to biblical counseling. I began to devour the things that Dr. Adams wrote. I was introduced to an entire new world and started to read a lot of the literature.
That led me a couple of years later to, when I'm looking for seminaries, finding A place that taught biblical counseling, and that's really how my journey in biblical counseling began. You know, I think it's really interesting how you're talking about starting off in psychology and just how you could see some of the contrasts between psychology and what ultimately really is biblical counseling, what the Bible says about human nature and the way that we approach trials.
So, can you tell some of our listeners who may not be as familiar with what biblical counseling is, kind of what some of the What are some of the contrasts between things like psychology, biblical counseling, secular counseling? What are some of the differences? Yeah, there are actually enormous differences in the approach to how we think about counseling or how we think about what I would call soul care or how to help a person and what it is that they're struggling with. I mean, think about modern psychology, has its beginnings within the last 150 years, and really the advent of Darwinism opened this door to the concept of modern psychology. Modern psychology is much more broad than counseling itself, but it certainly has application.
In what we now know as a therapeutic culture or a therapeutic approach to counseling itself.
So, psychology then is worked by different theorists really for the purpose of applying that particular counseling psychology in the therapy room. And so, what we know of today is talk therapy. is really um a a practical application of Counseling theory in the room.
So a theory will have a certain perspective about humanity. They have a certain thing that they believe ought to be true about human beings, what they think makes human beings operate appropriately, what's healthy for a human being. And then as they think about a person and the problems that they may be facing, a secular therapist will also have views and definitions to describe what they think is wrong with humanity. And then the third category is their pursuit towards what's therapeutic or healing in their mind. And so they have these three basic categories, and this is as simple as I can put it.
They have these three basic categories. And those are worldview appraised ideas. And what they're doing is they're trying to make assessment of human beings, who they are, what we're about, what we ought to be doing, what's broken in humanity, how those things are actually fixed. And that's where you see a massive discrepancy between our view as Christians in how we understand the world, what we think. Re it relative to humanity, what how humanity ought to be living, that we are responsible to a holy God?
That we live in a world that's cursed by sin, and that he's given us revelation that's intended to help restore through the person and the work of Christ and the promises that he offers. And it's very distinct in how we think about humanity, what's healthy, human problems, and then how those problems are repaired and fixed. And so, if I were to sum up this idea of biblical counseling, it's really believing that the Bible is sufficient and that Christ's work is sufficient to restore everything that's broken in humanity. And so, when we think about our emotional problems or our emotional dispositions, those things can be restored through the word of Christ, through the work of Christ, through the promises that Christ offers. And so.
Biblical counseling is distinct in that believing the Bible is sufficient and that it is comprehensive in helping us to understand humanity, its brokenness, and how those things are actually repaired. And that's quite distinct from our modern psychotherapeutic culture or our talk therapy culture. And what I would say, just maybe one final thought, and you can ask follow-up, but one final thought on this is it's very interesting because many people have recognized throughout the history of modern psychology in talk therapy how it has overtaken in many ways the domain of religion. What religion served as in the past in helping to understand people's problems and how those problems can be ameliorated. What we see today is that modern psychotherapeutic approaches have really overtaken the domain of religion in explaining human problems and how those things should be repaired.
And so, biblical counseling is really this perspective. You know what? The Bible actually gives us revelation from God on how man is broken. and how those things are ultimately repaired in fullness. by the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think what you said is really interesting as far as it taking the place of Of where religion used to be as far as approaching our problems, because so many people today in our modern society, at least in American society, You hear when they do go through a great struggle or a great trial, their first go-to is, I'm going to talk to my therapist about this, right? You hear that all the time in mainstream. And as believers We need to have a different approach. It needs to be that I'm going to take this to the throne of God. I'm going to take this to the word of God.
I'm going to take this to my pastor or to a trusted counselor. My husband and I last year we completed um A biblical counseling course through our church that was a year long, and one of the things that stood out to me, which very much plays into what you just said, that I think is so interesting. Is that secular counseling tells you that the problem? Is without, is aside from yourself, is outside of yourself, and the solution lies within. And as believers, as Bible-believing Christians, we believe that God's word tells us the problem lies within, right?
It's originated in our sin, in our fallen nature, and the solution lies outside ourselves. It lies in the person of Jesus Christ. And. That was such a huge takeaway for me with those counseling classes to think about. All of our problems do have some sort of origin within our own soul, within our own mind, our own heart.
But Christ is the solution for all of that. And so, how can we apply knowledge of God's word to even counseling our own hearts in some of those circumstances? Yeah, it's a really good question. Let me back up for a second and build into the question that you just asked. Because there is common psychological ideology, which is what you just described.
And common psychological ideology is it it does describe Uh beginning with with Freud uh and then moving forward into your your primary theories like uh B. F. Skinner and humanistic psychology and Carl Rogers. What you see are these concepts that we're not to blame, that guilt is something that is unhealthy and not good, that the explanation to your problems is something that's outside of you. It's caused by your past, or it's caused by your childhood, or something external from you, or Rogers would say it's built by some sort of external demand on you, whether that be culture, family of origin, some sort of religion, or whatever.
And what's interesting is all of those things are primarily opposed to the way the Bible describes how humanity is truly restored and how we're broken.
So if we think about non-negotiable doctrines that we believe to be true about humanity, the gospel tells us that we are to not build the self, which is really the story of the secular therapeutic world, is the answer to all of those external problems is to build the self, to empower the self, to grow the self.
Well, actually, that's fundamentally against the primary call of the gospel, Luke 9, 23, where Jesus says, for example, if anyone wishes to be my disciple, he must first do what? Deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. It's not a build the self. It's a call to die to the self. We see the same call in Romans chapter 6, for example, the call to crucify or mortify the flesh.
We see this in Colossians chapter 3, verse 5. Put to death, therefore, what is earthly in you. We also see a warning. For example, in something like Philippians chapter 2, where we see Paul, or Philippians chapter 3, verse 3, where we see Paul warning not to put confidence in the flesh. And this is totally antithetical to what we see as the therapeutic approach.
And so this is not just some sort of A categorized approach to health that corresponds with a biblical view of humanity. This is actually something that's not complementary, it's actually contradictory when you start to look at the fundamental aspects of it.
So let's take your question. And if we look at the question specifically, what we start to see is that there are non-negotiable doctrines in the scripture that are so important. And when we think about who God is, for example, and that He's sovereign over all, when we think about who man is, and that we're made in the image of God, we are moral agents. Those ideas of our being, who we are in relation to God, those are never untrue. For us as Christians, so it's not like we can take a pause on these non-negotiable doctrines that we see in scripture and say, you know what, counseling is something that's different, where we don't consider these Christian, non-negotiable truths about how we see the world.
But what you see happening, really, in the therapeutic culture. Is a request to place a pause on those concepts and let's look at a different worldview to explain who we are, how we feel, why we feel the way we feel, and how we can actually be restored in humanity. And those things, again, are not complementary, they're contradictory.
So if you just take, for example, historically, And pastors were seen, for good or bad, were seen as physicians of the soul.
Something in the middle of the 19th century, around 1850, radically changed to where now our posture is not in the direction of how does God think about us and our problems? How are we affected in his world? How does he help those whom he loves? How does he help us who love him? How does he comfort us?
We no longer have that posture. See, what's common in the world that we live in is we have a posture that's in the direction of the therapeutic, where we think someone else or something else or some other means explains our life better than the way God does in his revelation in scripture. And the primary argument of biblical counseling is simply this. If I were to boil it down, it's that the Bible is comprehensive and explains our human experience better than any other system, including. any other secular system.
Yeah, absolutely. And when we come back, we're going to talk about who can benefit from biblical counseling, but also we're going to talk about what are some of the hindrances that keep people from seeking out biblical counseling.
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Visit hopeinthemorning.org to learn how you can partner with us in ministry. Welcome back to Hope in the Morning. I am joined today with Dr. Dale Johnson, and we are talking about a crucial concept of biblical counseling and what that means, how that is in contrast to what secular counseling is or what psychology teaches. He was explaining to us how.
We need to put all of our faith and belief in the Word of God and what He says we are, and who He says we are. And the only solution that we have to our trials and to all the sorrows that we face, all of the different things that we will inevitably go through in this life. Our answer is through scripture. It's who God says we are and how God says we can be healed from our infirmaries.
So, can you explain to us briefly? First of all, I think it's important that people understand what training is required to become a biblical counselor. Yeah, it's a good question.
So first training, you know, I serve as the executive director at ACBC, which is the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And we have a training regiment. And this is just helpful for pastors or laypersons as they walk through a basic fundamental training process. And what we offer is basically 30 hours, maybe a few more hours in training, where we're basically giving the fundamentals. We're helping people to understand the basics of the scripture in contrast, as we've already talked about, to a secular understanding of human problems, really helping people to understand how the Bible explains our human problems, the context in which God describes the experiences that we have on a regular basis.
And so that's a part of phase one. And then you would move into, once you've completed that particular training along with some reading, into phase two, which is our exam phase where we're examining your theological disposition, your understanding of theology itself, and then in practical application, how you think about counseling, which is really just theology applied. Because we think about counseling as if it's intensive discipleship.
So the concept of helping a person to grow, discipling a person according to scripture. That's really how we change in a way that's effective in pleasing the Lord, which is our primary goal and aim. And it's also beneficial and helpful to us. It's the best way for us to live as we walk in relation to the Lord. And so then that final stage, which is my favorite stage, where we get to supervise individuals, where they get to practice the process of biblical counseling, and we get to supervise them.
So there are different training centers that ACBC has around the United States, and you can find those. On our website very easily, which is biblicalcounseling.com. And you can search for the trainings that they have, and you can find offerings in that way.
So all of that to say it's not it's not A small process. You do not take it lightly. It's something that if you go to a counselor who is ACBC certified, They're very trained, and they're very trained not only in thoroughly in God's word, but they're trained in real-life counseling situations as well. And I can tell you from personal experience that actually we have a couple people on our board who are ACBC certified on the board of Hope in the Morning. And one of them has become a dear friend of mine because she has served as my counselor through different seasons.
You know, I'm a mother of four, and that is not always an easy calling. And It has been so beneficial to receive that counseling. And so. I'd like to transition a little bit into asking you, from your perspective, who do you think can benefit from counseling, from biblical counseling?
Well, honestly, I think anyone.
So, if you think about the church's role, everything that the church is called to do is for the purpose of soul care.
So, if you think about evangelism, it's seeing people move from darkness to marvelous light. If you think about preaching, it's to call lost sinners to repentance and salvation. It's also to encourage, equip, Edify the believer to continue walking faithfully with the Lord.
So, when we see the concept of growth and discipleship, this is something the church should be doing.
So, this is something that all of us need. That's why we are part of a fellowship. That's why we do the one and others with and for one another, according to the scripture, because all of us are in desperate need. We're all broken, we're all in a process of growing in sanctification.
So, we all need wise counsel quite frequently. And there are times when I think about biblical counseling itself, so I would distinguish the normal processes of care that happens among the body of Christ, where we're engaged in learning the spiritual disciplines, we're in fellowship with one another, we're edifying one another, encouraging one another. Holding each other accountable, all the one another that you see in scripture, loving one another, forgiving each other, all of those things. And that's wonderful, normal processes of care. But there are times where we see that all of us, to some degree or other, maybe stuck in a particular moment.
Some life experience has gotten us shaken. And we see this disposition sometimes in the Psalms when you hear the psalmist crying out that they're in a place of maybe even feeling very down and downcast and they're confused. They don't know what's going on. Or maybe they're starting to question things about God because of an experience. And those are moments where...
Our sanctification certainly has, it feels like it's being paused, or we're having a hard time getting over a hump. Those are times where we can move discipleship instead of a corporate moving together, where it becomes one-on-one and more intensive. And so I like to think about counseling as engaging a particular issue with an individual who is struggling. To continue their process of growth with the Lord. And so this becomes a means to help them apply very specifically the word in a particular area of their life to help them to continue moving forward in the process of sanctification.
And then the goal is to move them back into assimilation to the body of Christ for normal processes of care. I think that's a great way to put it. And just a reminder, like you had said, Dr. Johnson, is that we can all benefit from that. We are all sinners.
We're all fallen short of the glory of God. And because of that, we're going to face circumstances where we feel overwhelmed or where we feel like we have tried and tried and tried to overcome, whether it is a sin or maybe it's a situation with our children when we're saying, I'm constantly pouring into them in this way and it doesn't seem to be producing fruit.
Sometimes we need to go to counselors for encouragement in addition to. The advice that they have for us, and to remind us of the biblical truth that God has put there for our edification and for our growth, for our sanctification, so that we can be a more profitable person. part of the body of Christ so that we can minister to others in a more complete way. What do you think or what in your experience have been some of the hindrances that keep people from seeking out biblical counseling? Yeah, so I mean, there are lots that we could list.
I think I would start with pride. Pride is one of the things where people assume, well, in their situation, it's not that bad, or they should be more mature than having to deal with some sort of issue or thinking, you know, tomorrow things will be better when they've been in this pattern of sort of a downward spiral for quite some time.
So pride becomes a huge hindrance. Secondly, one of the things that I see is They sort of in their mind start thinking about counseling issues as being separate from the Bible. And so they start to define their problems according to secular language, as opposed to seeing and posturing themselves toward the word and asking the question: you know what? I'm wrestling with this issue. I'm struggling here emotionally.
I feel very disoriented. Things are not going well. What does the Bible have to say about that? How does the Bible define and explain that particular experience?
So, one of the great hindrances I think is people, because of our culture and the language that we use about human problems, is so driven and saturated by the therapeutic culture that we have a tendency to forget that the Bible actually speaks abundantly about the experiences that we have.
So, that's a huge hindrance.
So, we don't look in the Bible for answers because we don't define the problems that we have according to the scriptures.
So, that's a huge hindrance.
And then. Third, people don't know where to look. They're not sure that the church is the proper place. I wrote a book called The Church is a Culture of Care. And in that book, I start with this experience that I had as a pastor where it was interesting to me.
That many of the people in our church would look elsewhere first. We were sort of the last resort. And I started asking the question: like, why is that? In some senses, it could be because the church and the church leaders and pastors send off this aura that they're too busy to even engage in something like that. But then there's a secondary and probably the most dominant reason, which is that our culture describes that the church is not the primary place that we should get help for certain emotional problems that we have in life or certain counsel that we should receive in life from normal human experience.
When in reality, this is the place, the church is the primary place that should be, that we should be going to get advice and counsel about disorienting moments and experiences in our life. And so, those are just some of the basic hindrances. I mean, we can go in depth about any of those, but those are some of the basic hindrances that I've seen. And once people overcome those concepts and they find churches that are willing to engage and help, those things go really, really well for them in the future. I think touching on what you're saying about people not having a propensity to go to the church for their counseling issues.
I think that there's also sometimes an issue, which is rooted back to what you were saying about pride, but almost where there's a fear to confess our sins to those that we want to hold us in high spiritual regard. And within the church, That's kind of what we all have come to. We want people to think: oh, they're very mature in their faith, and they're someone that I look up to spiritually. And counseling requires that we have that humility where we come and we say, I do not have it all together. I do not have all the answers spiritually.
And in this instance, I am not quite sure how to apply biblical truth to my situation. I need somebody else to step in here.
Sometimes it means that we lay bare our sins before one another. But scripture talks about that as well: that that's what we are to do, that we are to confess our sins to one another. And as a body of Christ Having that humility come from the top down. Which I think that if you are in A really wonderful church, that's a telltale sign. If your leaders are men of humble character, You're probably in a very good church.
And I don't know if you know this, Dr. Johnson, but one of the reasons why we wrote Hope in the Morning is because we wanted people in the church and counselors alike to be able to kind of walk in people's shoes and be able to live for a chapter in somebody else's shoes and then hear straight from them that these were the scriptures that really ministered to me during this time. These were the things that were hurtful to me. Because the other side of that is that, unfortunately, Sometimes as believers, we're well intentioned, but we say things that can be hurtful or we we pass off somebody's Pain very flippantly. And I don't think it's intentional.
I think that it's very unintentional, but. I think part of it stems from Our busy culture, which you had touched on as well, even with pastors, that there can be this. Just this hurriedness. In our American culture. And to really minister to people and counsel people effectively, we have to slow down.
We have to be willing to step into their world. You know, one of the things that I think could be a hindrance, which maybe some people don't know this, but just to answer this very simple question. When people receive biblical counseling within their church, is there a cost to it? Yeah, it's a good question.
Typically, the answer is no. There are some cases where to offset overhead costs or something like that where there may be a charge. Usually those things are minimal. The way that our standards work at ACBC is we request that no one is ever rejected because they have an inability to meet some sort of fee request. And we also limit the concept of those fees being exorbitant.
And so the majority of biblical counselors you'll find do not charge. There are some, however, who do. And some of that is to offset some cost. But again, that should never be something that's prohibitive because what we're doing is the work of the ministry. And we trust the Lord to provide in other means.
And that shouldn't be a reason to neglect someone who's hurting or broken in a particular issue. And that we have an opportunity to minister the Word of God.
So it shouldn't be something that's prohibited. Yeah. For those that maybe do not have a church that offers biblical counseling, or maybe some people are listening. You know, we do have people that listen to this program that are not believers at all, but maybe they're thinking. This is what I need.
I need to know what God's word says about my problems. If they do not have a church that offers biblical counseling, is that something that they can connect with through the ACBC website? Yes, absolutely.
So on our website, we have a very interesting feature, and it's called Find a Counselor. And when you click on our website, you'll look for that Find a Counselor tab. When you click there, you'll see a map open up, and it's a searchable map that you can find people within 25, 50, 100 miles of where you are. And it's certified members and training centers that would be close to wherever you are around the country and even some parts internationally as well. I think that's a wonderful resource.
And I know that you also you guys have you had mentioned that you're an author and so I know that you guys have some book resources as well. Can you tell us just a couple of those resources that you were that you would say like every counselor should have these on their bookshelf? Yeah, I mean, man, there are so many resources. That's one of the things we've seen happen recently in the biblical counseling movement: an explosion of really good, healthy resources.
Some of the things that we've produced, you know, and they're simple, just good ways to get introduced to concepts of biblical counseling. We've written small booklets, and these booklets are intended to be encouragement to those who are in the church who want to help people with certain issues. And we've broken that booklet series down into biblical solutions and then also critical evaluations of different theories that are out there. For example, like dealing with trauma or concepts of the Enneagram or whatever. Biblical perspective on those things, which often encroach on true biblical counseling and biblical soul care.
So, some of the biblical solutions are very, very helpful. One that I can think of at the moment is common mistakes of the rookie counselor. That's one that all of us benefit from because they're just easy mistakes to make when you're engaging in such profitable but consequential relationship like counseling. And so, just being aware of different ways that we might make mistakes. There are others where we talk about, for example, gentle parenting is another issue that's really hot today.
And trying to help people to think biblically through those particular issues. I've written one on marital conflict. The grace of God in marital conflict is the language of it. We've written on lots of different subjects like OCD or what's called scrupulosity often. ADHD, for example.
Those types of topics are what we're trying to help people to understand from a distinctly biblical perspective. And that is a wide variety of topics. And actually, I had shared with you previously that we talk about a really wide variety of topics here on Hope in the Morning and a wide variety of... mourning really. It can be anything from, you know, your family has faced a suicide or you have dealt with an abusive relationship or you've dealt with depression or anxiety or the loss of a loved one.
It's a pretty wide range of things. And so as counselors, Do you find that people that have experienced personally a certain kind of loss or, um, trauma or trial within their own life, do you think that they kind of have a unique advantage to counsel those situations? Yes, it's a very good question, number one. I think I can break it down in a couple of different ways.
So so what I would say first and foremost, is that necessary? And I think the Bible indicates that that's not necessary.
So certainly All did not experience everything that we do personally. But I would take his counsel on any issue, right? argument was was he married? But I would take his advice on marriage in the same way I would I would say about Jesus, right?
So having the experience is not the thing that empowers us to do our job well, okay? What empowers us is the word. And so the word and the wisdom that the wisdom that God gives us, for example, is the thing that empowers us to be able to speak well into a certain issue.
Now, should we discount experience? No, we shouldn't discount experience. But it's not like a person has to have the same exact experience. We can see, for example, in 2 Corinthians chapter 1, we are called that in our affliction when we're comforted by God to now use that in a way to comfort others with. The role of experience and how that can allow me and catapult me into a position where I can really give comfort specifically for a person walking through something similar.
But that's not the thing that empowers a person. The person that does the changing in the hearts of people is the Holy Spirit. And so the tool that is primarily used to accomplish that work is the tool that the Spirit would use, which is the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.
So what best trains and equips a counselor, a biblical counselor, is our knowledge of the Word and our ability then to apply. And what our experience Does it take intellectual knowledge that we might have about the word? And it makes it something tangible where we learn how to apply the word more appropriately because of some of the experiences that we've had. And we've seen how the word has been so critical, and so important, and so necessary to comfort us in particular points of affliction.
So, definitely helpful, but I wouldn't say that it's something that's absolutely necessary to help another person. I think that's a great answer. And pivoting off of that, how. How crucial would you say it is that counselors, you know, some people are naturally gifted in this area, and some people require a little bit of growth or training to. portray to others the truth of Scripture In a gentle manner.
And that doesn't mean not being direct with what the truth says, but. Having that air of truth in love, you know, having compassion for where somebody is, um, spiritually and being able to convey truth to them in a way that is I guess, I don't want to say disarming necessarily, but in a way that shows a gentle compassion and a love for the person that they are counseling. How important is that for an effective counselor to kind of learn? Emily, that's a I mean a phenomenal question, and I think it's absolutely necessary. Let me frame it like this, right?
So all of us scripturally are called to be evangelists, but there are some who are uniquely gifted to do that. I shouldn't, because I'm not uniquely gifted to do that, just say, well, all those people who are gifted to do that should be the ones who do that. No, the Bible calls all of us to do these things. In the same way, when the Bible calls all of us as believers to care with and for one another, we have a unique responsibility as a Christian. To make sure that we're offering wise counsel to one another and caring well for each other, that is the call and command of the one and others.
So, how does that happen? I think the best way for us to understand that, and I think you're right, that we all need to grow in this area of learning to speak the truth and love and appropriately apply, as Galatians 6, 1 would say, with gentleness, the beauty of the word to the broken. And how does that happen? The way I think this happens is to the degree that I constantly am walking in union with Christ and being conformed to the image of Christ, it changes the way that I see other people. And it's not some tutorial that I get from someone else or some learning about, you know, the concepts of empathy that really empower me to engage someone or speak the truth and love well.
What really changes me and my outlook to have genuine compassion on a person is the way in which I personally am conformed to Christ. Because what happens is when I'm conformed to Christ, when I see a person, I don't need... tutorial. Right, as I'm conformed to Christ, I start having the eyes of Christ to see a person in their brokenness and move toward them in the same way that our Savior would. In fact, he describes that we would, as the church, be the hands and feet.
We are his body of Christ as the church. And we are called to engage with the broken world in the way in which our Lord did. And so now I have not a manufactured Empathy or compassion. It's a genuine gentleness and compassion to where I see it is the truth of scripture that will set people free. And that's what I want to see in them.
And I want that so much that I'm willing to move close.
Sometimes tell them hard things, but never in a harsh way. Always in gentleness, knowing that this is for their good. And me loving them well enough to know that I would speak the truth in love to them in such a way that I care most about them and what's good for them in the same way that our Lord does for us.
So I think that's really critical for us, that it's not a manufactured compassion. It's something that as the Lord genuinely changes us, we start to see like Him and we respond to the world in compassion. I call it a bold compassion because it doesn't compromise the truth where we only love and not speak truth. But neither can we just speak truth without love. This beautiful interweaving of Christ being formed in us creates a desire now to speak genuine truth unashamed.
And boldly, but with gentleness and love in the way that Paul tells us to in Ephesians chapter 4. I think that's actually a beautiful takeaway. And I loved I loved how you put that, that Learning to speak hard things, but never in a harsh way. And going back to what we talked about at the very beginning of our conversation, I think that a lot of that, again, is rooted in humility. Because just as scripture says, but for the grace of God go I.
And that's another thing that I think is important to touch on as well is. How How does a counselor guard their own heart knowing that things that they are counseling? They themselves could fall into those circumstances, they could fall into those sins. How do they guard their hearts as they counsel these situations? That's a really good question.
So, I would say, first of all, breaking free from the modern concept of counseling would be really helpful. And here's what. Because the modern concept of counseling says in our therapeutic culture that I go to a person because they are quote-unquote expert and a professional in a particular area. Their professionalism or expertise in a particular area, that they're the ones who can help me.
So it places them in some sort of exalted position that they're the ones who will do the work in changing or helping me to change. When in reality, when you think about biblical counseling, we're all beggars and we've just been called to tell each other about the master and how to walk the ways of Christ.
So it's in the same way Paul would say, follow me, not because of me, but follow me as I follow Christ.
So recognizing that I'm always a man under authority. I'm always responsible to God. I'm submissive to Him in the same way that I strive in walking with the Lord. And it takes that humble disposition to do so. I'm calling someone else not to follow me because I'm wonderful or I'm an expert at something.
I'm calling someone to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and knowing that we're on the same team and we're both walking this same path together to follow Christ in a way that's pleasing to the Lord and good for us. And I think that disposition is very, very helpful constantly when you walk into the counseling room knowing that, listen, we're at the mercy of God. And if God doesn't show up to help, if his spirit doesn't move through his word, We're truly at the mercy of the Lord. And that concept, I think, helps to maintain a humility within us that it's not like, you know, I'm the expert. I'm glad you've come to talk to me.
Because that starts to build an arrogance and pride. And you will miss opportunities in the ways in which you speak to counseles. And you'll speak in a way that's denigrating or down to a person or even that causes harm to them. And so just remembering that we're still in process, that we have received the grace of the Lord undeservingly, all those things are critical pieces. And remembering where we're pointing them, that it's not about our ways, our wisdom.
It's about the wisdom of God. And we've seen it so affect our own lives, it gives us confidence that if they'll walk with the Lord, they can experience that same joy. I think that's put so well, and actually, it goes back a little bit to where we were talking about what some of the potential hindrances are for why people may not seek out biblical counseling. And it makes me think about the fact that When we do put somebody on a pedestal, when you feel that somebody is the expert and you're sitting on, you know, very different ends of the proverbial couch, per se, you know. that there is a trepidation and an intimidation factor that can come with that because you feel very much like you're the one with the problems and you're coming into the counseling of someone that's got it all together.
But when the councilee can have the perspective, like you just portrayed for us, that you just drew out the picture for us, of that humility, of understanding that before the throne of Christ, we're equals. We've all fallen. We all are in need of daily grace from the Lord and His mercy. And Just as you had said with Paul, that our goal is to follow godly examples before us. And so, looking at the counselor as that godly example, kind of that guide along the way that can say, let's look at scripture together for how God commands both of us to live.
And just because you may find yourself in a counselor's office as the counsele with an issue, does not mean that your counselor has not also been in an office with their own issues. And Honestly, one of the things that we have showcased here on Hope in the Morning, too, that I think has been so. Um Just beautiful, but also disarming to a lot of people that watch this is that we've had a lot of really wonderful, godly pastors come on here and talk about their trials. They've talked about how they have had to seek out biblical counseling in seasons where it's not that their faith was weak, but they needed reminding of who God was, what his character was, the fact that he is. Still faithful, even when our world seems to be falling apart around us.
There's something really powerful when men of God, in particular, can be vulnerable about their weaknesses. Because those of us in the church, whether we are wives or laymen in the church, We're following these men. You know, we're following our husbands. We need to see that. That vulnerable strength that comes only from being willing to say that I need to be in full dependence on the Lord.
And sometimes I need a brother to come alongside me. and help me. When I'm struggling. There's There's a real godliness. in that um And so, you know, I want to pivot here a little bit just for the sake of time.
But sometimes You deal with counseling cases that are, for lack of a better word, very heavy situations and you know that may be that may be an abusive marriage um What would you say to a woman in particular who finds herself in abusive marriage and she desires to have that biblical counseling, but her husband is Refusing. that she that she seek that out. How can she honor the Lord in that circumstance? And how can she get the help that she will require from the church? Yeah, it's a really good question, and these types of things are very complex and often very difficult.
So, when I offer the counsel that I'm going to offer, just know that there are different variables that happen in different scenarios that will require maybe more urgency or less urgency than what I might articulate here. But, sort of, as a general rule of thumb, If a woman is being abused in some way, especially if it's something that is physical, threatening, harmful, in that way, destructive, dehumanizing, where you're seeing a person being treated as if they're not a moral agent, those things are very concerning. And I would say that she needs to seek help, and she should be encouraged to seek help quickly, whether that be through her pastors at her church or if it's something criminal, certainly through the God-ordained law enforcement that the Lord has given as a proper arm.
So in cases like that, I would say absolutely. And and that that might not even be a quote unquote counseling issue at that point. It it may be something that needs to be looked in further. But if you have if you have a lady who has has maybe addressed some of these issues but the husband is afraid to be a little bit more vulnerable. I don't think there's anything wrong with a lady reaching out to spiritual authority and talking to elders, talking to pastors, you know, in those types of cases, especially when there's a broader way that I think about this, and I'll need to set it up this way.
I think in terms of the proper social institutions that the Lord has established, right?
So family, church, and government. And there are certain ways that the Lord has placed all of us with responsibility to those respective institutions. For me, I'm responsible to be submissive to my civil authority unless they ask me to sin. And so I would take some of those same concepts for a woman who's under the headship, she's called to be submissive to her husband. Uh but in a case where He's asking her to do something that's sinful, or he's sinning against her in particular ways like this, that for her to respond appropriately to a church authority would not be a breach in a situation like that.
And the Lord makes very clear the way that he cares for those who are oppressed. And so the reason I'm a little bit hesitant is just how we've defined the concept of abuse in our culture. We've it to such a degree that, you know, if a man has to say, you know, I didn't make as much money this month. We're going to have to, you know, maybe not spend the extra money that we spend on certain things that you may want, people would take that as being abusive.
So we've got to clearly define, you know, the concepts of what we mean by abuse. And so if we're talking about, you know, patterns of verbal abuse where it's harsh, threatening, dehumanizing, if we're talking about physical abuse or sexual abuse, those things are problematic. And I would say that's a good idea. the woman absolutely to seek others to help in those situations.
So I wanted to ask too, in some of those counseling situations where you hear of something that is going on that is illegal or dangerous or could potentially cause serious bodily harm to a child or a woman or whoever it may be. What is the responsibility of the counselor to report those things to authorities? Yeah, man, that's a really good question and very evolved. And my disposition, our disposition at ACBC has been it's appropriate to seek out God-ordained institutions like, for example, law enforcement. And we have to be very careful here because all of this is state regulated.
It's state regulated and required.
So depending, so for example, if you're talking about Arizona, there could be times where if it's an adult and there's domestic violence, you might be required as a mandatory reporter. In most states, domestic violence doesn't require mandatory reporting.
Now, if you're dealing with a minor, With sexual or physical abuse, you are a mandatory reporter in every state now. It wasn't that way 20 years ago, but it is that way now.
So it really depends on your context, what's actually happening. But I think it's absolutely appropriate to appeal not to do investigation as to whether or not something is criminal, but when something's been reported to you that allow the governing authorities to do their particular role in investigating criminal activity.
Now, people get confused here, and I want to make sure I'm clear in the short time that we have. is we have to be careful. People are making this an issue about should we refer to the government or should we not? Is this a spiritual issue or a civil criminal issue? If there's speculation that something is civil and criminal, it doesn't mean it's a non-spiritual issue.
So I think what we have to do as counselors at that time is report to the appropriate. Governing authorities, absolutely. But certainly don't neglect the lady when she's being abused or the child who's had to endure this type of oppression and abuse. We have to, all the more as the church, engage and care for her well and appropriately, maybe even the husband, confront where necessary, or whoever the abuser might be. The Bible still gives us as the church the responsibility to engage that in an appropriate way to confront sin and to care and comfort for those who have been affected by the sin while not neglecting our responsibility to report to institutions that God has given for our social good to swing a physical sword and punish those who are doing criminal activity.
So you can see the nuance that we're trying to build here.
So that way we biblically do our responsibility while appealing to God's appropriate authorities. Absolutely. And I feel like there's so much that we could unpack with biblical counseling because it really. It covers the whole gamut of life, right? Everything that we encounter in life can be handled through a lens of biblical counseling.
And so I just have one final question that I do want to ask you because As laymen in the church, you know, when we go through an issue in our everyday life, our first thought usually is to seek out a trusted friend or family member. Hopefully, it's somebody within the church that's a trusted friend or family member. And so, in that regard, I would say, and you can tell me if you agree with this or not, but I would say that the laymen in the church are almost the first line of defense as far as counseling goes. And so I have a two-part question for you. One is: how can we, as the laymen in the church, prepare ourselves so that we are giving godly, sound advice?
But second, the second part of that question is at what point Should we either advise to the person coming to us? or even go to A higher authority within the church to say, you know what, this is an issue that I just don't feel equipped to. to fully counsel biblically to to the state that it demands. Man, that's a really good question. And there's discernment.
Along that path in what you just described, as we consider thresholds of when this should go upward. But I think you're right. One of the ways that we take pressures off of our elders and shepherds is they should be. Modeling and exemplifying what it means to care for others because they have that primary responsibility as the undershepherds of Christ to shepherd Christ's people the way that Christ shepherds his people. But that's something as all of us are Christ followers, we're called to care for one another the way that Christ cares for us.
So we're not exempted from that.
So I think that's a good way to frame this concept in our expertise world, in our professionalized world.
So many believers think that, well, that's an issue that should be taken care of by an expert outside in a therapeutic context. And it's really disarmed the church.
So I'm really glad you're asking this question. We need to reinvigorate the layman's responsibility to take the word up and to minister to one another well. In fact, Ephesians 4 says that the job of our elders is to equip us to do the work of the ministry.
Well, what is the work of the ministry? All the responsibilities that Christ Himself has given us as a husband, as a father, as a wife, as a mother, as fellowship members with one another. We're called to do ministry with and for each other. And so it's important that we understand we should be engaging in those types of roles, simply pointing people to God's perspective on their issue. And if I were to boil this down in a very simplistic way, is learning to listen for unbiblical thinking and correct it with biblical truth.
And the way I try to frame that for people. is think of Colossians chapter 2 where All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are found in Christ.
So learning, growing, walking with Christ, understanding his word, seeing how deeply the way of Christ applies to every aspect of life and the wisdom that God offers applies specifically to our human responsibility in every situation that we find ourselves in.
So learning that process. And then Colossians 2.8, learning to guard against empty philosophies and vain deceptions. And we as laypeople can grow in our discernment to be able to apply the wisdom of God and then recognize when something is not according to the wisdom of God. This is what it means to mature, Hebrews 5:14, is that we constantly grow in our powers of discernment, knowing the difference from God's perspective between good and evil, is how the writer of Hebrews describes it. But then we do come to situations that are maybe, you know, more complex and more difficult than what we can handle.
And I think that's an appropriate way to say, you know what, in this situation, I'm confident that God's word has answers and that the Lord can help us here. But how do we pass this up to those who are primarily responsible for our soul? And you can think about this thing in several different ways.
So maybe it's consequential to the church. Maybe there's been some sort of public sin that the elders would be responsible for to shepherds.
So for example, in the way that Hebrews chapter 13 describes the responsibility of elders to constantly be keeping watch over the souls of their people. Why? Because they will give an account to God for this.
So recognizing there are issues that, man, it would be really important if we could bring in those whom God has established to be primarily responsible for the people under their care. And so, you know, there may be those types of issues where we say, you know what, this kind of reaches to the threshold that needs to go upward, or this might be beyond something that I personally am capable of engaging with. And then I would encourage people to be willing to say, you know what, I will go with you to the elders and walk with you as they counsel you because then you're learning in process, growing in maturity, but you're also becoming a support to this brother or sister as they're receiving proper counsel from those who are responsible in the church as proper authority and who are wise and mature.
So I think those are. Are proper ways to think about thresholds and never be ashamed or afraid to say, you know what, I know the word speaks about this, but God has given other wiser people to help us to think through this and to appeal and be willing to engage with that person as they go to elders for help in this situation. I think that's wonderful, wise advice. And I think that It all Boils down to humility, right? As we as we've touched on before, it's humility as someone seeking out counsel.
Humility, if you're the one that God has chosen to be the counselor. Humility if you're the friend, walking beside. And Learning to slow down. And listen, our God is not a hurried God. He is a God that takes the time to sit with us in our ashes and say, I'll take your burden.
Lay it upon me, and you take my yoke. My yoke is easy and light. And what a beautiful example the Lord gave us when he lived here on earth as Jesus, that he He takes our burdens. And he makes them his own. And he doesn't come to us and He doesn't put himself, even when he was here in human form, he did not esteem himself greatly.
And so how much more Ought we to learn from our master and not esteem ourselves greatly? Dr. Johnson, thank you so much for joining us and for letting us know really what. What biblical counseling is. And I hope that those that have listened today have been encouraged not only to seek out counseling if the Lord has laid that on your heart and you're really struggling with something.
Biblical counseling is an absolutely wonderful resource and Honestly, it's the most biblical resource that there is out there for us to. Get through whatever trials we are facing. But also, I hope that it has encouraged our listeners to dive into the Word of God, to learn to be encouragers and to learn to be more equipped to be effective counselors, whether that is your profession or just something that you are called to as a friend of somebody that may need you, that may need you to come help bear their burdens.
So, thank you so much for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. Hope in the Morning is a non-profit ministry that seeks to encourage the hurting. equip those who walk beside them, and evangelize the lost with the hope of Jesus Christ. to partner with our ministry or to make a donation in your loved one's honor. Please visit hopeinthemorning.org.
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