Welcome to Hope in the Morning. Turning tragedies and tears into testimonies of hope. Welcome to Hope in the Morning.
I'm your host, Emily Curtis, and I'm joined today with Robbie Dilmore. 2020 was the beginning of a challenging era for people all around the globe. The global pandemic unlocked fears and divided people physically and politically.
It was the first time in generations where governments ordered countrywide lockdowns and even issued closures of church doors. Joining me today is Canadian pastor James Coates and his wife Erin to talk about their experience during COVID. So welcome. Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thanks for having us. So, James, you are a pastor in Canada, right? What area? What area? We are in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. So we're Western Canada. We are on Mountain Time.
I believe we're just north of Montana. Okay. So when COVID first struck, first of all, you guys have two sons. At the time that COVID hit, how old were your two sons?
18 and 12. Okay, so still both in your home. And all of a sudden, we're all hit with this global pandemic, which felt like overnight, right? What what was that like for you guys in your household? Well, I just got back from the Shepherd's Conference, and we had seen the news coming out of China that there was a virus and that it was potentially going to end up here in North America.
But everything was, you know, uncertain at that point in time, and there wasn't a ton of of anticipation around what was on the horizon. So when the lockdowns began, in fact, I got back from the Shepherd's Conference, it was sick, really sick and even got tested for COVID and was negative. And so I was when everything kind of hit, I was actually at home sick. And actually, I recall as a pastor, I can't really watch golf tournaments. And I forget which tournament it was, it was a major.
And I was like, great, I'm sick, and I can stay home and watch this golf tournament. But then they canceled it because of COVID-19. And so everything began to shut down and everything was beginning to close. And at that point in time, we were just like everybody else. We didn't have any idea what was on the horizon, how it was going to go and the impact that it would have on our church.
And we were just watching Fox News and and letting the data roll in. Yeah. So initially, did you guys just basically what you're saying is you did what every other church had done initially, and you shut down. None of us knew what this was. We didn't know what the scope of it was going to be ultimately.
Yeah. Initially, we did comply. We did so reluctantly.
In fact, I got an email from a woman who wasn't a member and doesn't attend a church anymore. And she was concerned that we weren't expressing our joy in complying with the governing authorities and shutting down our services. And we were very reluctant in complying, suspicious of the government and what was the real agenda here. And so we did comply and we complied during the first public health emergency, which then ended in June. And we were already beginning to prepare people through sermons for opening up. And then when the the emergency ended, we we ended all restrictions on our gathering and let people decide for themselves. And then things didn't really get dicey until they called a second health emergency. And we were resolved at that point in time that we weren't going to comply with those orders. And then that's when the community around us began to complain. And that brought the attention of our our health governing body to our services. And then that began to escalate, as you know, with even the RCMP, our police arriving. Yeah.
I want to mention right now real quick that you are the co-author of those. Those of you that are on YouTube can see this. Otherwise, you'll just hear the title of it. But it's called God versus government.
And it tells more of your full story. But one of the things that stood out to me in here as I was reading is you talk about how you and a group of other churches were going to do a Zoom call. And with what you thought was going to ultimately result in kind of like a coalition, you know, where you guys were going to have each other's backs.
You guys were going to, you know, work in solidarity. And tell us about the conclusion of that call. Yes, we had we had a lawyer that was on there to kind of help us with the legal side of it.
We had a doctor that was on there to help us with the medical side of it. There were about 90 pastors, as I recall, on that on that call. And so I was anticipating that we'd be able to exactly have a coalition, a number of churches that would be resolved to defy the government orders.
And we were on the cusp of an announcement that was going to come out where the guidelines were going to tighten. And the sentiment was that so long as a third of the congregation or something like that could gather, there wasn't going to be any resistance. That the pastors that were on the call were satisfied so long as there was a certain number of individuals from the congregation that could attend. And to me, that was woefully deficient at that point in time.
That's effectively handing the keys of the church over to Caesar and letting Caesar dictate to the church the terms of worship. And so I came away from that very disappointed and we were already at that point in time getting negative attention from the governing authority. So I just I just knew at that point we were on our own. There was there was going to be no coalition. There was going to be no churches rallying, rallying with us.
There was the possibility that Tim Stephens' church would be with us in that, Fairview Baptist in Calgary. But he was trying to shepherd his church at that time through that. They were a little more divisive on that. They hadn't all come around in terms of being convinced that it was time to keep the doors open. And they didn't really get there until my imprisonment.
That was sort of the deal breaker for them. When I was in prison, that's when they decided they were going to open and cease complying, regardless of whatever division existed in their church. So, I mean, you you just mentioned the fact that your imprisonment and so this obviously your decision cost you something. And oftentimes, especially in the westernized church, our faith doesn't tend to have to cost us a whole lot.
Right. Like it's pretty easy to claim to be a Christian. And I think in COVID, it cost us more because those of us that saw the value in being at church saw that as a biblical mandate. It cost you something, whether it was a political divide within our own families or what did that look like within your church? Was your church pretty solidly unified in that?
Yes. At our leadership level, we were totally unified. And within the congregation, I would say that we were fairly unified.
And then as time went on, that unification only increased. We did lose a handful of families from the stand that we took. We disagreed with our position, but it was a very small fraction of the number of families that attended our church at that time. And even those interactions really helped us to be able to dot every I and cross every T on a biblical rationale for why we were doing what we were doing. So it was really helpful to have that engagement with those families. But yeah, our church was incredibly unified and that unity only intensified as things got more difficult.
So I couldn't help but be curious, how did they get difficult? I mean, one day you got service going on, the police show up and say you're on your way or what happened? So December 17th was really important, 2020. That's when AHS, our health governing body, ordered us to comply with the health orders. And so I preached a sermon on December 20th, 2020, called The Time Has Come. And that sermon ended up going viral. In fact, there was a sermon excerpt that ended up on the Monday six o'clock news. And the excerpt they took was this excerpt that climaxes in declaring that Christ is the head of the church. And we were just blown away.
I mean, that was Tim Stevens and I had interacted that day and he had text messaged me and said, you're the most hated man in Alberta right now. And so there was a little bit of trepidation at that particular point. But when that sermon excerpt got to us, I mean, we were overjoyed.
I mean, what an opportunity for the Lord's Lordship to be declared. And so that was really significant and that just upped the ante because now the media was involved. We already had the RCMP attending our services.
AHS was obviously focused on us. And then from there, they basically used every tool in the toolbox to get us to comply with their health orders. And so they used the media and tried to drag us through the mud in the court of public opinion. They used the court system. They took us to court. The court ordered us to comply with the health orders.
That was in January, middle of January. And so we defied that court order and could have been held in contempt of court, which can come with up to two years of imprisonment. And when we did defy that court order, they weren't ready yet to take us to put a pastor in jail. So the political will didn't exist yet to do that.
And so we ended up continuing on. Then they arrested me for the first time on February 7th and served me with what's called an injunction, ordering me to comply again with the health orders. And I indicated I couldn't sign it, like I couldn't agree to the injunction. So the officers refused to sign. And this all happened in our church office. So I was read my rights and arrested and released in the same moment, served with this injunction, refused to sign it.
But they said, like, it's still in force. So they said, you know, we're going to be back and we'll see you next Sunday, which meant they knew we were going to be back next Sunday. And so I preached another sermon that went even more viral on Sunday, February 14th, called Directing Government to its Duty, where I was basically calling on the government to perform its role and function, which is ultimately to punish evil and praise those who do good. And so it was on the heels of that that I had turned myself in on the following Tuesday, which I did, so I was arrested again the second time. I was now brought before a justice of the peace. And they were going to release me. And the question just was, would they release me where I would be released with a condition, a bail condition, or would I have to agree to my bail condition to be released? And it was the latter, and I couldn't agree to the bail condition, so I just said, well, I can't agree to that. And so at that point in time, they couldn't release me. And then the system had to figure out, well, what do we do with them? Because, you know, criminals sign their bail condition. Like, criminals don't refuse to sign their bail condition. So they had to figure out what to do with me, and I ended up at a maximum security prison the following day and was there for 35 days. Wow. When we come back, we're going to talk about what your experience was like in that prison, but not only that, Aaron, what your experience was like as well and how the church stood beside you.
So don't go anywhere. We'll be back in just a few moments with hope in the morning. Have you ever walked through the deep suffering of a friend and been at a loss for what to say?
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And we are sitting down with James and Aaron Coates. And James is a Canadian pastor who was imprisoned for his decision to leave his church doors open during the global pandemic, COVID-19. One of the things that I thought was so important in your book that you talk about is the fact that those church doors, you weren't leaving those open because you wanted to be divisive. You weren't leaving those open because you didn't care about your community.
It was exactly the opposite. So can you talk to us a little bit about how you held fast to that truth but did it out of a heart of love? Well, yeah, for sure when it came time to open our doors, the headship of Christ over his church was the core conviction that led to that. And so it was ensuring Christ can be head over his church by ensuring that his word governs the worship of the church. And that touches even his people being permitted to come to the church. And so to tell folks they couldn't come and worship the Lord corporately just seemed like pastoral malpractice that we were actually going against the basic fundamental responsibility of a pastor. So that was significant. So opening our doors and letting our people decide was critical.
But then from there, you have to begin to think through, okay, so we're going to do that. Christ is head and we're going to let our people come. And that's for their best spiritual good. And the pandemic was incredibly difficult.
It kept people away from each other, from their families, from their friends. And so the spiritual nourishment and fellowship that comes from coming together and being under the ministry of the word and singing and praying and fellowshipping is critical. And so there's that. We're checking that box. But what about the loving our neighbor as ourself?
Because that was going to be the criticism. Well, you guys are not loving your neighbor. Your people are going to get COVID-19 and they're going to die and everything else.
And so from there, we began to think through, okay, so are we, in fact, loving our neighbor and doing this? And we believe we were because we looked at the data that was coming in concerning COVID-19 and the severity of the virus. And it just clearly was not nearly as severe as they said it was going to be.
The impact on the community was far less than it was. This was definitely an expression of government overreach, fear-mongering. And so by taking the stand that we did, there was a sense in which, in addition to all the theological reasons for doing what we did, we were flexing our civil liberties. And we believe that to be in the best interest of our neighbor because those civil liberties belong to them. And just because they're being persuaded to believe incorrectly about the severity of the virus and what would need to happen to overcome its presence in our communities and cities and everything else, our responsibility was to keep open and prove that, no, this is not the threat that you thought that you think it is and to stand up for their civil liberties. And so even if people didn't believe that or interpret our stand that way, it didn't matter.
We were still loving them as ourself in that. Yeah, you know, one of the things that you had said, too, that I think is important is that you put a lot of stuff on the line as well, as you're not just a pastor, you're a husband and a father. And you even wrote in one of your chapters that when you found out from your lawyer, when you said, how likely is imprisonment, how likely is arrest? And your lawyer said very likely that you wrote for the first time you felt some anxiety and some fear in that.
And what was that like? And then what was it like being a pastor in prison and a maximum security prison at that, as you mentioned? Yeah, and just for the record, like the way that God versus government is written, it's the most step by step, thorough treatment of everything that took place.
And so I'd encourage folks to read it. But when it came to that Saturday that you're referring to, that was just before defying the court order. And so we had decided that the day before as a leadership, we were going to continue to stay open, defy the court order. And so on Saturday around noon, I'm talking to James Kitchen, my lawyer, and asking him, so what are the odds that I'm going to do time for this? And he said, it's pretty likely. And that was already more than I was thinking. I'm thinking like there's no chance they're going to put a pastor in jail. But he's doing his job at that point in time. So he wanted us to stay open and he was definitely for it. He was reading the pandemic the same way we were. And so he wanted us to stay open. But as a lawyer, he has to actually equip me as his client to have all the information to think through this.
And so he did exactly what he should have done. He said, yeah, there's a good chance you're going to do time for this. And then I was like, well, how long?
He's like, probably a couple of months. And so I got off the phone and then I go downstairs for lunch. And I just share with Erin that James is saying there's a good chance I'm going to do time for this.
And so she ends up going into the bathroom and she can talk about that as far as what she was doing. But that was significant for me because for the first time, even though I knew jail was a possibility and that was the threat in terms of the emergency and all of the penalties and everything else, I just questioned whether that was a real legitimate possibility for me. And it was at that point that it became real. And it was incredibly difficult. I mean, the physiological effect of that on my body was significant. And it took me, it's amazing about that Saturday is I hadn't even started writing my sermon yet.
I mean, I've been studying all week, but I hadn't started writing yet. And so I had to sort of digest that, get through the physiological effects of that, and then write the sermon, which the Lord gave me the grace to do. And it just so happened that that Sunday I was preaching John 10 and the Good Shepherd and the contrast between the Good Shepherd and the Hirelings. And so it just was the perfect passage for the moment. But yeah, Erin can talk about what it was like for her to hear that news and how she had to digest it.
Yeah. Yeah, he came down and he shared that news with me at lunchtime. And I didn't say much to him at that point because I didn't want to add an extra burden to him.
And so when he got up and left, I just cleared all the dishes and I went into the bathroom. And I've always been taught when we were at TMS, Dr. Street would always say, hold everything with an open hand. And I had seen the Lord be so faithful in my life of taking things out of my hand, whether it's our fertility or chronic illness that I faced or anything in my life that I'm to hold it with an open hand. And so I realized in that moment, the Lord was asking me for the person that I loved most in the world and that I had to give him up and not for the sake of just me giving him up, but for the sake of Christ's glory and headship over his church.
So you're just going through so much at that time. You're thinking like, what in the world is happening that they're going to go to the extent of jailing a pastor. And so that that brings a little bit of the fighter out in me of who do you think you are rivaling the Lord Jesus Christ.
So just preparing in that moment, OK, I've got to do whatever the Lord asks me to do and stand firm in whatever that is. Now, how when James was in prison, how did the church come around you, Aaron, and your boys and kind of step in and kind of, I guess, take on James's role in a sense? Yeah, well, Pastor Jacob took his place in the pulpit and that, in my opinion, I always say he's one of the most brave people I know. He's one of my heroes because he was new to ministry, brand new, four months into ministry.
And he's having to go through covid and then potentially. Risking jailed himself by taking the pulpit. So the church just kept going, but they just loved us really well through that. I had to start really fighting our government at that point, petitioning to get James out, doing a ton of interviews, getting traction of visibility. And so I was in the middle of a fight and they just came alongside of us and took care of us, fed us, prayed for us. Yeah, it was we love them so much and they really showed their true colors during that time. They cared for us so well. They wrote letters for James. They went to the jail.
They went to protests. They like they just took such good care of us. That's so good, because when you're saying in the beginning that you had what you thought was going to be that coalition and then that kind of fell apart. There's then sort of a feeling of isolation. And when you feel like you are left to bear the wrath of the government, basically, that can be a very daunting task to be upon your shoulders.
I want to ask one more question. This book is co-written by Nathan Busnitz and he is with Grace Community Church out in Sun Valley, the church that John MacArthur pastors. Did you guys get a lot of solidarity with that church and a lot of support from that church? Yeah, I think that they were watching everything that was unfolding and there wasn't a ton of communication between us.
But when my imprisonment took place, that's when all that changed. So Nathan Busnitz wrote a TMS blog post to express solidarity with me, which was hugely encouraging. John MacArthur reached out to us through his daughter and gave us an audio message that was passed on to Erin and then to me.
So while I'm in jail, she was playing the audio message from her phone to me. And so I got to hear him just expressing words of encouragement, which just put a ton of wind in my sail. And so that's really when the support, the connection was established and the support was expressed. And then even after coming out, there was a lot of engagement with Grace Community Church and opportunity. I mean, MacArthur was giving kind of updates, you know, Sunday morning by Sunday morning of what was happening at Grace Life. And then we went underground because when I got out, we had our Resurrection Sunday service.
And then they actually locked us out of our building, changed our locks and took our whole property away from us. And so then we went underground and we were going to undisclosed locations all over the Edmonton area to worship in peace while the government was effectively hunting for us. And so, yeah, the support from Grace Community Church was massive. Yeah, so many letters, so much kindness.
So I hate that, wow, time is running down on this episode, but I would tell all listeners that, man, there is the YouTube channel of Hope in the Morning. And this will continue on because I know you got a lot of questions like I do. Like, did the government ever apologize what happened with this and what happened with that? But the question I know is on the heart of our listeners and certainly on my heart is what about the boys?
Like, how did they take their debt going to jail? Yeah. Yeah, do you want me to answer that now?
Yes, please. Yeah, they, you know what, I didn't think that persecution was going to necessarily come in our lifetime, but I knew that it might come in my children's lifetime. And so as a homeschool aspect of our life, I was always training the children about missionaries who had given their life and their stand for Christ. And so that was a very heavy presence in my schooling with them.
But they were brought along every step of the way. And we really watched our oldest, I think, become a man during that time. We saw his conviction come out, his care for me when his dad was in jail. He did everything to care for the home and sat in his dad's spot in the church. He drove me everywhere so that I could do interviews and phone calls and emails and all of that. And then our youngest, I think that really started the process for him of evaluating where is his heart before the Lord? And is he ready to stand for something like this?
Because right now you're protected by your parents. But that really started for him. Am I saved?
Do I know Christ? And so only good came out of it for them. Wow. So I think that's incredible. So did you did you see a change then in your younger son's faith? Did he did he make a profession of faith after that or had he already made a profession of faith prior to that?
No, he was really wrestling. Right. And just in the last couple of years has made a profession of faith.
But that's what started the ball for him. And he he is such a unique, special guy. Is he 17 now?
He's 16 in a couple of days. OK. OK. So what what was it like being in prison as a pastor, James? Like not something you probably saw yourself, right? Right. When you're on the street now, prison jail. Yeah. Prison's not where you see your future, right?
Yes. When you when you're when you're brought in, you're driven to the jail and then you go into this little holding room just before they come to you and then bring you into the building. And when they come to you, they they take the shoelaces out of your shoes because they've been used to to to like not as a not as a weapon, but like I think the there was an inmate who was coming in who killed himself with his own shoelace, somehow choked himself to death.
So they take those out. And actually, I was going in with two other criminals at the time and they're asking me, why are you here? And I said, I'm a pastor. I was keeping my church open and just kind of a weird dynamic. And then even as I'm going in, all of the guards are aware that the pastor's coming in. And in fact, even as I was being driven to the the prison, the radio was on and I could hear them talking about it on the radio as I'm as I'm talking to the officers driving me in. So so then you kind of get into this other room and you go through this whole process of being processed to come into the facility.
And it's a it's a it's a really dehumanizing experience. And there is a ton of unknowns for me and and that weird decisions that I'm having to make because they want to know, do you want to go into general population or do you want to go where like the the rapists and child molesters go? And I was like, I mean, good options, right? Yeah. And I'm kind of like, well, like, do you have a suggestion?
Like, you know, just the general population. And and then, you know, then I'm in a I'm in a holding cell once I'm processed. And I'm with about four other guys now and one guy's detoxing on the ground.
He's clearly high. And I remember there is a moment where I was just feeling a little uncomfortable and wondering about my safety. And I was with that group of guys in this holding cell. And I think they probably asked me why I was there. And I told them and this this one guy said to me, hey, man, you're gonna be fine.
Don't worry about it. And it's just kind of funny because you got a criminal telling you in prison that you're going to be fine. And it ministered comfort to me. You know, it really did. Yeah. And then as I was being taken to our pod, as I was coming in with two other guys that the guards like, oh, great.
Three criminals fresh off the street. And I'm going like, well, I'm not really a criminal. So I I said to him, you know, I'm here, which would have been very courageous in hindsight.
Like, you don't really talk to the guards. Yeah. But I guess because I was asking he he he, you know, he had to figure this is a weird question for a guy to be asking. So I told him that I was there for keeping my church open. And so I ended up back in my cell just after that. And he came in on the intercom and he was like, hey, Coates. I was like, yeah. He's like, you got a paper and pen. And I was like, no. He's like, you want one? And I was like, sure. And he's like, Bunyan did some of his best work while he was in prison. Oh, that's funny.
You're like, so did Paul, right? So, you know, so there were moments like that that were happening in the midst of being totally out of my comfort zone in a whole new culture. And and even the Lord was sending two of the the chaplains that were there, Christian chaplains who were ministering to me and helping me navigate everything.
And that was hugely helpful. And so, yeah, I mean, prison and initially to I mean, we're in quarantine. So I was getting out of my cell twice a day for 15 minutes. So if you think about that, like you're in your cell for twenty three hours and 30 minutes. And there was one day that I was in my cell for almost 24 hours before I got out. And and I think they were trying to weaken my resolve. The prison didn't want me there. In fact, they sent higher ups in the prison to just say, hey, you realize you don't need to be here, right? You can just sign your condition and go. And I was like, yeah, I understand that.
And they're going. And so why aren't you? And I said, well, because I can't I can't agree to the terms of the release. And I'm not just going to like if you if you if you have a bail condition and you agree to it and then you go and violate it. That just changes the whole ballgame. You just just went from, you know, a debatable crime, as it were, to like a real crime where you're you're on the hook for as a criminal.
So so anyway. So there was all kinds of signals to me that that they didn't want me there. For example, the the the premier, who's like our governor, sent a phone number to me of another guy in clergy who I think was in Calgary and was actually speaking against me online and everything like that. But he wanted me to call this clergyman and and and, you know, this guy was going to try and persuade me to sign.
So I knew the premier didn't want me in prison. So it was a huge miscalculation. They were trying to get us to comply, but no one ever considered that I wouldn't sign my condition. And so, I mean, even the even the officer, we talked to him, not me personally, but members of our church spoke to him after the fact.
And he was like, yeah, we had no idea that he was not going to sign his condition. And so it was a huge miscalculation, a huge black eye in our government. They got all this negative attention and it ended up being what ended it ended our premiers stay in power. So you asked the question, did the government apologize?
Yes, they did. So the gentleman that was the premier who ended up having to step down because he just didn't have a sufficient enough support for the party to move forward, was replaced by the woman that's currently the premier. And I actually was asked to pray at her prayer breakfast last year. And so so I was sitting right next to her at her prayer breakfast and and she apologized at that point in time for the way that we were treated. And what's really interesting about that, too, is I was told by another pastor who was very supportive of us that there was a meeting held in the Calgary area. And it was it was Danielle Smith was hosting the meeting with a whole bunch of pastors. And and she's speaking to them and saying, like, you know, we totally agree with Pastor Coates.
You know, the government doesn't have authority to tell you guys how to worship. And so we understand that our authority ends at the doors. And and he's there and knows all these guys and knows they weren't supportive. So here's Danielle Smith telling these pastors that they agree with that. She agrees with me and and is talking the way that that I had been talking. And he's totally in agreement, loving it. But he knows all the guys there didn't actually agree with my stand.
So our stand. And so anyway, yeah, we you know, the political climate in Alberta toward us changed pretty significantly. And yeah, you know, going back to the whole prison piece, it's a unique experience because when I've been asked about it and it's been some time now since I've been there. So you just you just forget. But it's there are moments in prison where you think where you feel like you're at like summer camp. And then there's moments you're like, oh, no, I'm definitely in jail.
So that's kind of how I describe it. Did you have did you have opportunities while you were there? Were you there for 35 days? Is that the correct number? Yeah.
OK. So did you have opportunities while you were there to share the gospel with inmates? Were they coming to you wanting to talk about their life and their their souls, basically? Yeah, they were coming to me. So by the time I got moved from quarantine into just general population.
Yeah, they were just coming to me. They knew about me because I was in the newspaper. And when you're in jail, you've got radio stations that they you can pick from to listen to.
And there's a talk radio station. And so I was I was on that quite a bit. So they knew who I was before I even got there. And the first day they began coming to me and wanting to speak with me. And I was able to pray with them and and evangelize them. And there was a group of guys that asked for a Bible study. So I was able to lead a Bible study through portions of the Gospel of John and do that right out in the open. There was a point to where they wanted me to lead a they were asking me to do a Sunday service. And so I asked the guards if I could do a Sunday service.
And that got kind of punted to the higher up. And they didn't want to do that. So they told, you know, they said you couldn't do that.
Yeah, no, they didn't want me to do that. You can see how that would be right. That's what you're there for.
And we're going to continue on here. That's funny. It makes me wonder, though, did it did it give you more of a heart for incarcerated men having been there and walked in those shoes a little bit for that month? You know, I think the thing that you you realize pretty quickly when you're in prison is that a lot of the guys that are there claim they're Christians.
So a lot of what I was trying to do was to get guys unsaved to get them saved. If I could say it that way is persuade them they don't know the Lord so I could actually share the Lord with them. So I would say that's kind of the thing that stands out to me the most is just that they they think they know the Lord, but they they typically don't. And I mean, I I probably feel sort of a connection to, I guess, an inmate now, a prisoner, like a criminal in that sense, just because I've spent some time with them.
I've rubbed shoulders with them and and I've had relationships with them and they treated me well when I was there. And so it maybe humanizes them more so than it did previously. But yeah, that that's that's what comes to mind on that. Well, as a pastor, I have to ask this. Maybe I'll get run off YouTube.
Like, that's a great idea. That's like isn't that a role of all pastors to kind of help people see that are that are there that the ones that need to get unsaved so they can get saved? Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's a when you're talking about evangelizing Roman Catholics, for example, or I'm talking about just plain old Southern Baptist. I mean, you go to almost any church.
I don't care what church you walk into. There's folks that are sitting out there that man. So I'm curious. I'm just more than curious. What what what did you say or what was some of that? What was what did God give you? Well, I was preaching to the Gospel of John at the time, and so that that's what was fresh for me. And so I basically was in the Gospel of John and emphasizing the need for the new birth and talking about the effectual call. And even from there, you can get into Galatians and the bearing of fruit as a sign of saving faith. And so that's the kind that that was the discussion I was having with these guys and trying to point them to the miracle of the new birth and what it generates in someone's life.
I think it's interesting. It kind of goes back to what we talked about toward the beginning of our conversation, which is that when when faith doesn't cost you anything, it's very easy for it to be counterfeit because it costs you nothing. You look in in churches in North Korea, the underground churches or churches in, you know, Muslim areas or even in places in China where it is forbidden and it may cost you your life.
People are not claiming to be Christians unless they truly want to be a follower of Christ. But in our westernized church, it really it costs us very little. You know, it may cost you some popularity.
It's not going to cost you much. And then some in some areas, like we know here in North Carolina, in the south, it actually like that's the thing to be. You know, that's what that's what makes you fit in, not stand out. And so when you are willing to make a sacrifice, whether that is, James, you saying this is what I truly believe God's word says is right to do. This is what I think that people need, especially in this time when they feel so uncertain, so full of fear and anxiety.
This is what they need. They need the faithful word of God preached to them week after week. That's a sacrifice you made knowing that it may land you in prison. And Aaron, even on on your behalf, as his wife, supporting him and being willing to say, I agree with you, I support you. And that's that's what we're called to do as wives to write is to sometimes do the hard thing to support our husbands.
And sometimes that means that you go through a season of immense difficulty of raising boys on your own for a time, having to be the public voice. And you didn't know at the time, right. You didn't know how long he would be there. Is that right? Yeah, because they could have at any point called in our contempt of court for opening for for breaking the court order.
So he could have been there up to two years. Wow. So the other question I know is on everybody's mind, including mine is OK. So what was the size of your church pre covid and what's the size of the church now? So we were averaging about 350 on a Sunday pre covid and we average about 850 now.
OK. Wow. And that, you know, and unfortunately, I just recently called to be the pastor of a church that almost died during covid. But you can tell they just, you know, people poured out and covid had horrific effects on so many churches and so many different ministries that I know of that. And I can remember because with both of masculine journey and Nikita's man up camps, you couldn't get a Christian camp to open up so that you could even do ministry. Right.
We had to go all over the state to find them to do it. And so, man, I am so excited about your courage and so excited about how God has blessed that. And, you know, the other thing that just stands out to me is the way you did it in so clearly in love. And you can see it in your attitude and you can see, you know, why God blessed it the way he did.
Yeah. You know, you definitely neither one of you, you know, I've had the privilege of knowing you both briefly in person back when you guys were in California and neither one of you are arrogant or presumptuous in any regard. You guys are humble people. You know, even when we knew you then, you you love those that were around you. Well, and I think that you showed that in this it wasn't this whole stick it to the man type thing.
It was genuinely I'm going to submit to God and I'm going to love others. And that's what it looked like. But so many so many of us that lived through that pandemic fear can be such a controlling thing. And that is what really that's what the government was using. They were kind of using that the fear tactics to control huge populations. And for many people, it did work. But it's like that's exactly what we needed. We needed to be able to hear the truth, to have the the issues of the day addressed. And not every pastor was doing that either. But the ones that did it, it was like a breath of fresh air because for them to address what was going on and then and then meet it with biblical truth.
That is what our souls needed. You know, I had I had a newborn at that time. I had a baby that was born in October.
So here she's three months old. I remember my husband. We had no idea what this was going to ultimately be. You know, I remember I remember my husband saying, I don't want you to go to the grocery store with this newborn because who knows what it could do to our newborn. So he would go to the grocery store with gloves on. And we had to have formula because I couldn't nurse anymore. And so he would go and formula was hard to come by at that point, too.
So I want to talk about even as a mother, something that's fearful. It's like, are we going to have formula? Because everything was bare. And but, you know, I remember he would like I said, he would glove up and he'd go and he'd get the groceries and he'd unload everything from from the baskets into the sunroom. So nothing actually touched our sunroom, you know, because you just didn't know in those early weeks. And there was a fear there of what are we exposing our children to. But like you guys, the more we learned about it, the more we learned that, you know, there were certain certain people that were very vulnerable to it in much the same way that certain people are vulnerable to a lot of various illnesses. But it wasn't on the same level that they wanted us to believe it was on for the same level of time.
They wanted us to continue on that path, you know. So what what is something especially, James, for you? It just comes to my mind how, you know, Jesus was falsely arrested. Paul was imprisoned.
How has it brought scripture to new life for you having sat, you know, sat in handcuffs? Yeah, that's a great question. Is that lawnmower really loud? I can't hear the lawnmower.
I can't hear it on our end. Yeah, I mean, I think when I when I was first put into a cell, when I turned myself in and was waiting to go before the justice of the peace, I picked up Philippians and was reading Philippians, which is during Paul's imprisonment. And so there's no question. I mean, you you appreciate. The apostle Paul's life and ministry in a way that you you couldn't previously, maybe, and you understand, too. So in Philippians, for example, it talks about how his imprisonment resulted in the gospel going forth with more power. You see that in Chapter one, we got to live that and see that and experience that where where the stand that we took as a church put steel in the spine of others to then not not shrink back, but actually have more courage to preach Christ in the gospel. And so getting to see. I mean, I think I always read Philippians in that section that talked about that reality of of the gospel having more power in light of Paul's imprisonment and kind of wondering how that dynamic played itself out.
But then we got to live it and experience it in real in real time. So so for sure, I think, you know, some of the the the accounts and Daniel stand out to you as well. Daniel three, Daniel six. And so, you know, you I mean, even actually know what it did to is John Bunyan stand. So, I mean, I was in jail for thirty five days. John Bunyan was in jail for 12 years. And and he was in jail for a very similar reason, as I understand it, where they were they they wouldn't let him preach the gospel to more than five people at a time. And so so he could have gone out of jail, too. He just would have had to have agreed not to do that. And he couldn't agree not to do that. And so he was in there for 12 years.
I mean, 12 years and 35 days. So it you know, that helps to kind of put things in perspective, too. So so John Bunyan was definitely a man of principle and courage.
And and so I think I think it it's not even just a connection to the apostle Paul and even the scriptures, but even just to men who have been in a similar position and in some cases far worse throughout history. And so cool to me that that guard knew that, like, hey, Coates. Yes. Yes.
Just cool. Yeah. Yeah. Like a message to the Lord saying, I gotcha.
Yeah. I love what you said where it puts steel in the spine of others. And it makes me think about how that that's kind of like the legacy of believers. You know, you have John Bunyan, you have Paul, you have Christ himself. That when we see their example, we see their faithfulness and we see they're willing to have an uncompromising stance on the gospel. And what God says is good and right for his church.
It puts steel in the spines of future followers of Christ. And so what what a joy for you guys to share your testimony of how you have continued to follow Christ and all the way all the way to the cost of imprisonment. And we are so thankful, James, that you have been released and that now your your testimony is able to go forth. And, you know, Aaron, for you as a faithful wife, I know that you both have gone on many platforms and spoken about your testimony in this regard. And we very much appreciate you being willing to share your testimony here. Where is the best place?
I'm going to show it again here. Where's the best place for people to purchase your book? Yeah, I think for those who don't mind shopping on Amazon, I think it's super inexpensive on Amazon. So Amazon would be a good spot. But I think it's it's it should be available almost everywhere.
OK. I actually know where I got mine. Now I look at it. I got mine on thrift books, which I love. If you don't know thrift books, you need to know thrift books because it's it's like the best place ever to get books. But this is a great book. And as you said, it chronicles a very complete rendition of your story. And not only your story, but a side by side of what John MacArthur's church went through at the same time.
And so kind of what the experience was like on the Canadian side versus the American side. So I would highly recommend this book. And for those of you watching on YouTube, we will put a link to where you can purchase this book. So, Aaron and James, thank you so much for joining us today on Hope in the Morning. Yeah, thanks for having us.
Can I just interject? There's also a documentary that was made called The Essential Church. The Essential Church.
John MacArthur's church did that. And it's his story of Grace Community Church and Grace Life's church, as well as Tim Stevens. Right.
Yeah. But the way it's done is so well done because Shannon, the producer, interweaves church history in and the two Margaret's. And how what the government did to us has been consistent throughout church history. So you can actually go on their app and watch that for free. It is a phenomenal documentary. Go on the app for The Essential Church?
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, like the Grace Media app. OK. All right. So we will link those things as well. And we will probably also talk about some of those things when we post about your episode on Instagram. So do you guys have a place where people can follow you as well, like any sort of accounts out there that people can follow? We have.
I have. James isn't on social media. I have one social media account. You've had enough of the media in your life, right, James? Yeah. Actually, none of our pastors really have social media. And I appreciate that about them because they're so focused on their ministry at Grace Life.
But I have an Instagram page and it's Aaron Coates 80. All right. You guys, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and sharing your story with us. Yeah, thanks for having us.
