Golf With Jay Delsing - - Tom O'Toole Jr.

Jay Delsing spent 25 years on the PGA Tour and is a lifetime member of the PGA Tour and PGA of America. Now he provides his unique perspective as a golfer and network broadcaster. It's time to go On The Range with Jay Delsing.

On The Range is brought to you by Pro-Am Golf. Good morning. This is Golf with Jay Delsing. I'm your host, Jay Delsing. I've got John Perlis sitting right here. John, good morning. What's going on? Just another great weekend to talk golf and to watch golf. Yeah, for sure. We formatted this show like a round of golf.

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They have safe, professional painters and handy people that will come in there and hook you up. 314-805-2132. Alright, I got an interview with St. Louisan Tom O'Toole. He was the past president. This guy, another one of these people, where I go prep for the interview and go, nobody sleeps.

Nobody rests. He's so accomplished. He really had a long history with a lot of things, but particularly USGA, which I'm hoping we get to touch on because I know you're a huge fan of what you got to play in. I got to play in a couple and it's special events and I think we should encourage the junior golfers of the world, of the area, to bear down and try to get in a couple of those events. No doubt at all. We got the Tom O'Toole interview.

One thing before we jump into that, you and I talk about how do we help people with their games. I don't know if anybody watched the LPGA much a couple weeks ago. It was on opposite the PGA Championship.

It was really, really tough. But Lydia Ko had, this is a former, long-standing world number one. And a great human being, by the way. She is a great person. She's got a five-stroke lead with six holes to go over Danielle King. And things start happening and it gets a little dicey and she's up by one going to 18s par five. And these girls, Lydia Ko hit a great drive and King not so good and then King winds up in a bunker with her second going for the green and two. And anyway, long story short, Lydia Ko just tossed away four shots around the green, made double bogey, lost the tournament, didn't get in the playoff. And what happens when you lose your focus, when you start, you know, she could play that hole, John, a hundred times and not make another double bogey.

She could probably play the hole, this is crazy, I'm going to say it anyway, she could probably play the hole in the dark and not make another bogey. But what happens when your brain, you guys, gets in the way of what you're trying to do and you start looking for that steering wheel or that security blanket, it's gone. She gone. Anyway, it was tough. You ever been there?

Oh, please. I can remember this college tournament my senior year, I should have won somewhere down in Pomona, one of those parts of California they never advertise too much. And it's a par five, I'm coming down with a one stroke lead and I'm doing all the things I'm supposed to do and I get around the greens and I just, you know, piss away a couple of shots here and I get in the playoff and lose in the playoff. That tournament's mine. If I play that hole today, I still, I didn't knock it on the green in two, 75% of the time.

What do I do? I lay it up, I hit an okay iron shot, a three putt from, you know, 40 feet and off it goes. Yeah, so I do. Thanks for bringing that up.

No problem at all. Anybody that's competed knows that feeling and you can call it choking, call it whatever it is, but when you're in the battle, you're in the arena, it's going to happen. Yep, yep. All right, so let's talk about USGA events. So my favorite, not my favorite, but my introduction was a US junior where I was in Wilmington, Delaware. So this is how we rolled back in North County in the Delsing household. I was in Delaware by myself at 16, staying with some family in their attic and we were playing DuPont Country Club. And I'm like, I get there and I'm like, I will hit exactly no fairways this week because they're all about 12 feet wide, big tall pine trees.

Well, somehow the ignorance is bliss. Kicks in, kicks in. And the not being smart enough to be afraid, I whack it around there, qualify for match play, and I'm cruising through this match play. Bro, I am making every single putt. I made a couple of putts from here to the arch and back. They were so long. And I remember playing a guy that went to, you may not remember Dennis DeYoung, but he played at Arizona State. Yeah, I do remember that.

Yes, I do. I'm playing him in like the second or third round and we get up on the first playoff hole. Okay, I birdie 18 to get no playoff with him and I duck hook to strive. I mean, I'm over, I don't have nowhere. I'm flipping something over it. Long story short, I got a downhill 25-footer for par and he's got about a seven-footer for par straight uphill.

I hoop mine, he leaves his short, and he looks at me like, I don't know how you did that. I lost in the semifinals to the eventual winner. Don Hurter beat Willie Wood. And that was the tournament pearl that got me on the map in terms of colleges. I needed a finish in a huge, that was the biggest event for a junior.

See, I didn't know that until right now, all the years that we've been friends. I go and play the U.S. junior at Scarlet Course in Ohio. Great track. I lose, I make it through the 36 holes, I lose to Corey Pavan. Who? Corey Pavan on the 20th hole.

He makes a 25-footer that breaks at least eight feet. But that was my kind of coming out party. Nobody cared or knew or should have known who I was, but that was a big deal.

We had all the coaches, that kind of stuff. And so I mean, I kind of did myself proud there. I remember on the 19th hole, he's got about a three-and-a-half-footer he's got to tap in to move to the next hole. He gets a little 360 race track job that kind of hangs on the edge and then falls in. I'm thinking, oh man, I thought I could sneak past that. And then the next hole, I told the buddy getting for me when he's got this 25-footer that breaks eight feet, I said he's going to make these.

He says, no chance in the world and just buries it. It was a one iron, one iron, par four. We both hit one iron, one iron. We both knocked it on. I'm about 20 feet and I'm like, I know I'm going to have to make this putt. Mine was kind of straight in, straight up here. He's got a side hill. He buries it.

I did not make my 20-footer. I figured that happened. But the beauty for me was, it was a national event, my first. Set up like I imagined a PGA Tour would be. Fast fairways, rock-hard gorges, perfectly manicured tees, greens absolutely spectacular.

And I loved fast, firm greens, and these were fast, firm greens. What a great experience. That's why in the little clubs I've been around since then, every time I see the little juniors not going out for the USGA events to try to qualify, I think it's a huge mistake.

It's an event of a lifetime. I also made US Amateur, but as did you, and then you got to play US Opens. And I know USGA events meant a lot to you in your career. Yeah, I've actually played a Senior Open as well.

So it's really cool. I had a chance to, I don't know, you remember when we were staying with Leibers up in Olympic Club? Did you play in that amateur up there?

No, I did not. I was 4 up with 4 to play in the third round. I win this and win one more match and I'm going to Augusta. Except I forgot to win the 4 up with 4 to play.

David Lee birdied 3 of the last 4 holes and then he beat me in the 23rd hole on extra holes. I remember walking in. That doesn't seem even right or fair. It wasn't.

It wasn't, no. I still cry about it. I'm over it.

No I'm not. I walked into the Leiber's garage and took my UCLA bag over my head, I know you'll find this really hard to believe, and threw it against the wall. And Mrs. Leiber comes out and she goes, you okay? I go, not really. I need a moment. I need a moment.

Just leave me in the garage. So as well as we're on the subject, shouldn't he tell the last 4 holes as quickly as he can? Yeah, let's hear it. I think so. Do you happen to remember them?

That was a look of, yes I remember them. They went that great, huh? So this is where the whole thing went south. I got about a 6 foot putt to close it out on 15 for par and I miss it. And he goes at birdie. So birdie in 16, it was a 580 yard par 5 at the time.

And he birdies. Are you hearing? I'm thinking, I'm just going to make a par somewhere. 17.

I don't know what you're doing here, but it's irritating you. Anyway, then he goes in birdie 17, I'm thinking, dear God, am I going to, you know, you're just freaking out. So 18 is that short little hole. So you're birdie 17?

That stuff never happened. It's 500 yards uphill par 4. So I'm thinking, oh man, thank God there's not a lake. This dude's going to walk across the water on 18. So I hit my little shot in the fairway, which is a big deal. He hits it in the rough. I put my ball, the pins right in the flag 6. So you're one up, you're one up. He's got a tie hole.

No kidding, I'm thinking just tie me somehow. The flag 6 in the front edge of the green, I put it on the front edge. So I've got like a 15 footer. Yeah, I don't remember much of it. The wind was blowing in my face. No, just kidding. Anyway, and he whacks this thing out of the, out of the rough and gets it on the back edge of the green.

He's got a 40 footer down the hill and hoops it. I put a putter in my hand and might as well have been a chainsaw. I couldn't, I didn't even, I don't even know what happened. I'm thinking I was just out of my head, out of my head. And then I made a bunch of pars.

Just imagine how your life could have changed if you won that match. Oh man. Is that over?

He's building you up today, man. Is this segment over yet? It's got to be about over. You know what, that's going to do it for the On The Range segment.

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Welcome back. This is Golf with Jay Delsing. I'm your host Jay. I got Pearly with me and we are going to the front nine which is brought to you by the Ascension Charity Classic. Folks, we got canceled this year but we're still getting a minimum of four years of great. Folks at Ascension just put another year on the back end of their contract so 2021 is going to be the inaugural Ascension Charity Classic in Norwood Hills. It'll be worth the wait.

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636-926-9622. Alright, Pearly, we're going to the Tom O'Toole interview. Past president of the USGA. Oh by the way, started the Metropolitan Amateur Golf Association here.

An attorney, a dad, a grower of the game. Just, I mean, add what you want to to this list. This guy does it all. Well, here it comes. Oh my goodness. Oh wow!

In your life have you seen anything like that? Tom O'Toole Jr. is brought to you by Golden Tee. Oh my gosh, Tommy. I sit here, I've had so many cool guests that I've had the privilege of interviewing. I sit here and do my prep work for you and I just think, gosh, man, here's a St. Louis U High grad, a St. Louis University graduate, a St. Louis University law school graduate who has basically dedicated your life to golf in St. Louis and your family. And man, I just can't wait to tell the folks about some of your accomplishments. 63rd president of the USGA, Tommy.

St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame. I mean, you've captained the World Amateur Team. You've caddied for Jimmy Holgrief in the Masters and in the inaugural Mid-Am. I mean, Tom, it's from one end of the spectrum to the other. Do you ever look at that and just go, wow? Well, yeah, when you think about the whole journey, it certainly gives you pause to say what prompted you on that journey.

But certainly, humility comes to mind. I've been very fortunate and blessed to meet a lot of great people like yourself and people around this game. It's been a great run. I've been so fortunate and lucky to get to do all of it. You know, if you have a chance to, you know, I'm a little older than you. We played a little junior golf from a distance together. I obviously never played anywhere close to the level that I would have liked or certainly didn't even sniff your skills and capability. But I wanted to be around the game because I had a chance, you know, probably because of some redirection, to be involved in a game that I started a love affair with as a young kid. And then to be involved in governing that game and at the level I was, it was just a great fortune I had, Jay, no question about it.

Oh my gosh, tell me, I left so many other things off. You founded the Metropolitan Infantry Golf Association in 92. You're a founding member of Micas O'Toole, one of our top law firms in St. Louis. You've been part of the Masters in so many different ways. You're one of the preeminent rules officials in the game.

But let's go back, man. I can remember watching you, Caddy, for Jim Holcreeve down at Forest Park. It was one of the first tournament, real live tournament golf things I ever experienced as a kid. And I remember watching you guys and I was just in awe of what was going on.

I think you guys were qualifying for, oh gosh, the Pub Links, I think, at Forest Park. Yeah, you know, I did have a chance to meet Jim. He, you know, 10 or 11 years older than me, but met at Westboro Country Club, thanks to Johnny Moore, who had done some caddying for Jim.

John had elevated his game to the point where he was going to be more competitive. And so I had been doing a lot of caddying for Mickey Wellington, who you know well, Jay, who was another Westboro member. And I knew Jim, but didn't really know him well, but connected with him. And, you know, it really was another one of those circumstances of being in the right place at the right time. I happened to get on the bag with Jimmy when he really overcame some obstacles.

I think probably most of them, like you know Jay in this game, mental. He certainly always had the skills, but he overcame some mental obstacles. Not by anything I did, but I happened to be there when he started this rise in amateur golf. He won his first district in 1977 and that was a title that he had coveted and played against Jay Haas and Bobby and Jimmy Mason and could never quite get over that hump. And I happened to be there at that time and then rode that out through most of his competitive amateur career as I was trying to get out of St. Louis University. Worked for my dad for a short time. And then on to law school, I still did a lot of caddying for Jim. And, you know, to the U.S. Open in 1978 and then his rise to the Walker Cup team and, you know, several U.S. Jay championships and then, you know, he won at Bell Reuben 81.

And then they left to the candy ban in 83. I was out in Washington working for a legislative staff that Congressman Dick Kephart oversaw and got me the job. And I got the call from Jim on that Saturday when Hoard hardened another St. Louis and lifted the caddy ban on Augustine and got to go there.

So, you know, that's not about Tom O'Toole really. That's about, you know, I struck a friendship with a guy. We had good synergy. We got along well.

I guess I put up and shut up and did the right things to caddy and then really just enjoyed this ride. So there's no question that that is clearly a seminal set of circumstances that catapulted me into the game. And his relationship with people in the game, particularly the U.S. Jay and Tom Meeks, because of his international team competition and success in U.S. Jay championships, I got that chance. You know, it's funny, Jay, I was moving some things into storage from our law firm the other day.

I saw a letter that I wrote Jim Hand, who was the then president of the U.S. Jay, in response to a letter he had written me about maybe being interested in working in the legal department at the U.S. Jay. So, again, all of that connected through the Holtgre friendship and relationship and arrangement. And so, yeah, it was people asked me all the time, how did you get involved in the game?

There's no question about it. It was Jim that that relationship is what catapulted and spearheaded me. And what I'm sorry to say is a lifetime involvement.

And I only say sorry because I wish I was a little younger and I still had some of that journey to experience. I'm visiting with Tom O'Toole, the 63rd president of the U.S. Jay. Tom, that was just kind of an offspring of someone that just loved this game. I mean, and we share that common thread and we both are trying to grow the game. Let's talk a little bit about, I don't think folks understand how, what an expert and how difficult the rules of golf are. If anybody's played, man, understanding them is crazy, but talk a little bit about how you've been with the Masters. You've officiated over a hundred and, oh gosh, 170 USGA championships.

I mean, those numbers are staggering. Well, you know, I think part of the reason Jim, Jim got me on a U.S. Shea committee right after law school. I had actually run, I don't know if you remember this, Jay, but I ran for political office. I went to law school because I wanted to be in politics. My family had political backgrounds.

I worked under that umbrella with Dick Ebert in Washington. I had political aspirations. I ran for state rep in August of 86. I graduated from law school in December of 85, took the bar exam in February of 86. Passed it, went to work in the Beekner McCarthy law firm in those days and then ran for state rep.

Believe it or not, as a Democrat, that was where my family's background was and I won the primary election, but I lost in the general in November in a close race in what was an area that was, you know, predominantly a Republican area in San Luis County. And right about that time, Jim Holtgrieve said, would you like to be on a U.S. Shea committee? Well, I don't know what that means and, well, you got to work tournaments here and we're going to try to do something to better golf in St. Louis. And you've always had kind of this affinity for the rules, whether that was my legal background or not, or again, something that my playing skills didn't allow me to pursue that avenue, so I got interested in others. So I went on the U.S. Shea committee and then, you know, I was right fresh from taking, I took the Missouri bar in February of 86 and then took the Illinois bar in July of 86.

So I'd just come through two state's bar exams and so I was pretty academically inclined at the time. So I studied for the rules of golf exam and went to a seminar that Tom Meeks taught and I scored high in the exam and then that, you know, unbeknownst to me, that catapulted me into a, you know, to be considered to officiate at national championships. And so that kind of started, besides trying to do what we had a vision for in St. Louis to kind of reorganize amateur golf, I got on this run of working national championships and getting more engaged in the rules. And, you know, that became a big passion of mine and I think it, you know, I guess it presumably helped our tournament administration because I then did acquire a substantial rules knowledge and so that helped in our administration events. And so, yeah, I, you know, lucky again, you know, 15 masters and 30 U.S. opens and, you know, British opens and PGA's and player's championships and tour championships and, you know, president's cups, rider cups. I mean I got to do it all so I'm very, very fortunate. It was a great run. Probably the most often asked question since I retired from the USGA board, why didn't you stay involved in the officiating?

And I said, you know, number one, we had a lot of young people that wanted to stay up. Certainly I had the, I was grandfathered in under USGA policy that I could continue to officiate at the U.S. Open and I had the rules exam score to do so. But, you know, I thought, God, I was just, I was blessed with all of it.

I had such a great run. There were so many people that wanted to, you know, when I started, I was the youngest, you know, they said youngest ever to officiate at the U.S. Open and, you know, there wasn't a lot of people my age doing it. Well, as time went on, more people got involved and people wanted to come up and do it and, you know, so why would I occupy the chance from somebody else?

So let them do it. Again, I was lucky to get to do all of it and, you know, I never started off by saying this is what my objective is, but just tried to acquire some knowledge and then, you know, I was fortunate the USGA was gracious enough to let me go and experience those things. Yeah, Tommy, that's fantastic. Is there any specific rule situation that you can remember that's either really interesting or was kind of perplexing because the rules are not easy to understand and the situation can vary so much? Yeah, you know, as I evolved my USGA career and did a lot of public speaking as a result of that, the two questions I would often be asked is, you know, what's your favorite course?

And then tell us, you know, if you have officiated all these events, tell us your most difficult ruling. And shockingly enough, I don't know if this was my feeble mind as I got older, you know, I didn't memorialize all those things and, you know, I had rulings with, you know, virtually every prominent player that's played in the last four or five decades and because, you know, they stretched over different decades and, you know, I had rulings with Nicklaus and Palmer and Tiger and Rory and Spieth and the like. So, you know, I don't know, the one that people remind me of is I denied Tiger relief at the Masters one year playing the 17th hole. Snap hooked his drive over into the seventh fairway and he had the leaderboard that's situated behind the seventh green somewhat between him and the hole by his representation and in those days the rules were that if the temporary obstruction was on a direct line between you and the hole, you got relief. But if you were going, Tiger's argument was, well, I got to hit a cut here and so the rules didn't permit for that relief. And, you know, he was obviously a prominent player at the time and I knew Tiger since he was 14. So that was one that there was, you know, he was never disrespectful but I got the look that you've seen him give on that ruling. But, you know, I don't, you know, I had a lot of interesting rulings and things but I never really memorialized it.

The other thing that Julie tells me, Jay, and you know who Julie is but for your listeners benefit, my wife, is that I really never, I didn't do a very good job of memorializing this run. I didn't take pictures. I didn't keep memorabilia. I have some stuff.

I'm looking around my office right now. I got a picture of Nicholas and I in a senior open probably in 1991 and then I got the Walker Cup where Holt Greve was the captain at National Golf Links where I'm speaking next to George Bush. So, I mean, I have some things but I didn't make a conscious effort and I think I didn't do that in the rules vein either of kind of categorizing or remembering all these rulings I had. But, you know, if you never, I'm sure I made some poor calls in the rules arena.

I don't remember any glaring ones at the national level so I guess I escaped unscathed there. Yeah, that's great. This is Jay Delsing in golf with Jay Delsing. I'm visiting with Tom O'Toole, St. Louis Sports Hall of Famer, 63rd President of the USGA. Tom, you mentioned early in the interview about the strange times. Let's talk and tell the folks a little bit about the challenges that the US Open and the USGA is facing this year. I mean, no qualifying. Lay that out for people so they get a good understanding of how difficult this has been.

Yeah, you know, I think of the things that have happened since I left the helm and, you know, sometimes you're just saying, wow, I'm lucky I'm not in charge or I'm glad I'm not in charge. These are really difficult times and they're difficult decisions and what you don't want to do is Monday morning quarterback too much when you're sitting in the cheap seats to say why would they possibly not do something? Like qualifying, for example.

You know, this has been that way for 120 years. That I think gives you an indication of where we are with this, Jay, and what has happened in our world, in our country, in the arena of sport. But, you know, you, the USGA or the PGA Tour or NBA or Rob Manford, I know Rob well. I spent time with him in Florida. I think daily what he's going through of trying to make decisions on the fly and be nimble of how this thing changes. And so the USGA has done that and so I certainly, am I sorely disappointed that we don't have qualifying for the US Open since that is what the tagline is, open?

Yeah, I am. But, you know, that's kind of an indicator again of where we are. But the good news is we're going to have the national championship in 2020. We hope it's not going to be a World War II blank like those opens that we missed in the 40s. And while that's what's happening to the RNA and others, Wimbledon, you know, we hope to have the championship in September as scheduled. What will be difficult to observe how it evolves over the next couple months is what does that really look like other than, as I was watching last night as I was working my office at home, I had Golf Channel on it was Hale's victory there in 1974, the famous massacre at Wingfoot. You know, we're going to have a US Open at Wingfoot, which is a wonderful site and don't think it's quite going to look like the last one we had there in 06 when Ogilvy won and Phil imploded on the 72nd hole. So, but we're going to crown a champion and I think that's important and I hope we can get some gallery there. I hope we can certainly get people at the Wingfoot Golf Club. They've gone to great lengths and through a lot of aggravation and consternation.

Colin Burns, who's the general manager there, longtime general manager, a very dear friend of mine and Julie's and Brian Marcel, the president, I negotiated the deal for this year's US Open with him back in 2013. So I hope those people get to enjoy and revel in what they've made this contribution and the imposition that they've gone through. So, but it's still on the on the 17th of June, we just don't quite know what that's going to look like.

And this but we got our fingers crossed. It's so difficult, isn't it, Tom, because if you think about any tournament as a kid that either of us wanted to win, it was the US Open was we wanted to be our country's national champion. And the planning and the size of these events now have just gotten so big. And then you throw a pandemic in the middle of it. And it's just it's just staggering trying to figure it all out. It's insurmountable, really.

And that's why you have to be nimble. And I've had several conversations with Mike Davis and John Bodenhammer, who oversees our championship department, and watched how this thing's evolved. And, you know, for a while, I don't know that this ever made it to the media, but it looked like the RNA was going to take the September date. And it looks it looked like that we were going to play the US Open or try to play it.

In your old town of LA in December. It didn't work out that way because the RNA begged out and Fox, our broadcast partner, I think preferred to be be using airtime in September, early in the NFL season as opposed to the critical end of it. So when the RNA didn't play, then I think the USJ said we'll take the September date, which is better for Wing Foot because that means they get the hose and not have to wait for, you know, several other years before they get the hostess one again, because next year it's at Torrey Pines and assume we're back to some normalcy.

You know, the USJ would continue on to where they already contracted in 21 and 22 and 23. So anyway, that's hard to believe and who would have ever thought it. But again, I do. I do hit my knees at night and say, well, I'm lucky to have gotten to do all of this, Jay. But I prefer that I wasn't at the helm now, as opposed to when I was. Okay, that's going to wrap up the first half of the Tom O'Toole Jr interview.

So don't go anywhere. We'll give you the remainder of that interview on the back nine. This is Golf with Jay Delsing. Are you in the market for some new clubs, maybe a bag and the latest style of sweet new shoes? Is this a year you decide to stop listening to your buddy's advice and get some real golf instruction? If any of these appeal to you, then go to Pro-Am Golf today. Pro-Am Golf has all the latest gear from all the major manufacturers. Call Steve today at 314-781-7775 and schedule a lesson with Tom DeGrand. Tom is the best. He's been in the game for over 50 years.

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Welcome back. This is Golf with Jay Delsey and we are on the Back 9. John Prillis is with me and we are headed right back to the Tom O'Toole Jr interview.

Ardo Palmer is the Masters Champion of 1960. There it is. A win for the ages. That was a great putt. With Jack finishing off and what a day it's been for him.

A round of 65. Tom O'Toole Jr. is brought to you by Golden Tee. Tom, you are captain of the world amateur teams. You got to see some of these great young players way before some other folks might have.

So let's talk a little bit about them and then the ball and some of the technology stuff that's near and dear to your heart. As you know Jay, I chaired our championship committee for four years. That's usually at most a two year stint in the USGA board. I guess because of my championship administration and rules background. I was always on the rules of golf committee and I was always on our joint rules committee which was the small committee that interacted with the RNA. But I chaired championship and one of those responsibilities that falls under championship is international team selection. From the Walker Cup teams that Bob Lewis or the Buddy Marucci captain Bob Lewis to from about that point from about 2007 until 2017 I was involved in our international team selection.

So I saw the likes of all of your listeners' favorites whether it's Spieth or Thomas or Uline or English or Fowler and all the young talent that came up through the Walker Cup ranks. And then one of the things that as you know Jay but for your listeners' benefit the Walker Cup captaincy is selected from past Walker Cuppers and generally speaking those who have remained amateur. Now Jim Holcreeb had the fortune of having a professional career after his amateur career and then got his amateur status restored and he was able to enjoy the captaincy. If you take a guy like Davis Love who played on the Walker Cupp team of course, the conventional wisdom he was not going to be a Walker Cupp captain because he turned professional.

That could change but that was always kind of the unwritten. The world amateur team captaincy is different. That's generally given as a perk or an accolade to past presidents of the USGA. So that's why I got to captain the world amateur team in Ireland in 2018 and so yeah I was involved in the selection of that team. Which was almost Sunday's winner Colin Morakawa and Justin Suh the All-American and former number one player in the world from USC. And then the Texas standout and current or was at one time number one player in the world Cole Hammer. So I had three kids that I say kids but I mean literally any one of those three you'd want to be your son. And I was involved in selections of a lot of kids over the years and some of them were knuckleheads and some were princes and Scott Langley's.

I mean you think about you know the disposition and just the good heart that a guy like that has. So you know Jordan Spieth and things that he's done for my son Zach and others. I mean you know there's a ton of great kids that came along but I would say that of all that came along the three I ended up captaining. I had three princes and you know this Morakawa was a special kid and I was my son PJ and I who's very close with Colin because he spent two weeks in Ireland with him. You know was sorely disappointed when he didn't prevail on Sunday but as I sent him a text that night said you know keep your head up great tournament you got bigger things ahead.

And it's just another one of those good fortunes of that you know I had the chance to meet some of these kids along the way and and they've enriched not only my life but my family's life. I mean Jordan Spieth you know he would again be at the top of anybody's list in the O'Toole's house that's for sure. Yeah the term respectful just comes to mind when I think of those guys you mentioned Tom they just do such a great job at a really early age. Hey Tom what are your thoughts about the golf ball and you know this ball that we're playing is it's so controversial.

No one is as we reminisced about the past. We had never dreamed that if we could have fast forwarded that we'd have a golf ball that can do what it can do today would we know it's crazy. And you know I lived through the whole anchoring thing Jay as you know and was in the middle of that. You could argue that maybe the ball should have been undertaken instead of that I certainly publicly was you know we saw anchoring being taught at the youth level. Kids with AJGA were sticking that thing in their bellies and in their sternums and and pivoting around it and saying you know this is taking nerves out of game and how many putts have you hit in your life that you were nervous. You know that's part of the game. Obviously Colin Morikawa missed two putts on Sunday that I think he you know he's a wonderful putter he normally makes those putts but nerves enters into it. So I watched that and so saw the merit that you know should we attack this or take this on.

We knew it was going to be a fight with Fincham and Ted Bishop who was the head of the PGA of America at the time the president. But you know hindsight's 20-20 so we can always quarterback better on Monday. You could have said that maybe we should have gotten our arms around that.

But you know Jay I'm no as you know I was bad at math and science that's why I went to law school. And so I'm no scientist but you know this isn't all about the ball. We've let this club this driver get to a point where with the COR and the spring-like effect and and some of those parameters that we put on that are permitted to be put on that is part of the culprit. But now you got a ball that you know you know when I was on the board we were monitoring the distance and it wasn't changing we had a joint stipulation with the RNA and said you know if it materially changes we're going to jump in and react.

There was a joint statement of principles of equipment standards that the two governing bodies had and you could see it was stagnant for time but it has exploded since. Some of its technology with the club certainly a lot these ball manufacturers they I mean they've got talented people to work for them. And then there's this whole component of the athletic capability of the player today versus when you started. Not that you weren't you were you know look you know there's a lot of guys are on tour that are not athletic. You can rattle them off. I could rattle them off.

Our names will remain nameless. Some prominent players that you think are athletic not you the public thinks are athletic that aren't really athletic. You on the other hand were very athletic accomplished basketball player played all sports growing up your dad wouldn't let you just play golf. You know he had you in baseball and basketball soccer the whole the whole gambit. You excelled athletically so you took those athletic skills to the golf course.

I think we see that now more than we saw it in your in my era and then we see this whole strength thing. This thing that DeChambeau is doing I where does it stop Jay. He I mean if I heard these numbers right you correct me because this is your this is your bailiwick. But ball speeds of 200 club head speeds of I don't know hundred and fifty one four. I don't know where I can't even I can't even get I can't even get anything thoughts hands anything around those numbers. Yeah it's crazy and in this kid you know I know this kid pretty well.

He's a driven kid. So this is going to be copied. People are going to see this because it's better than hit wedges and six irons right. So this is going to be copied. So the RNA and USGA needs to be out in front of this.

So how do you do it. Do you roll the ball back and what does that look like from a legal and a public relations standpoint. What does that look like today. I mean Titleist says they won't stand for it. I had conversations at length with Wally Uline when I was in and he was still running Titleist and I think the world of the guy and helped us a lot in the anchoring thing.

He stood up and supported the USGA a lot and also in connection with his son Peter as he played on Walker Cup teams and elevated himself as USA amateur champ. But Titleist and the manufacturers will resist. So where does that take it. Is the game withstand a dispute in an argument like that or do we just go to bifurcation which the USGA said they would never want to do.

That was the lore. That was the charm of golf that I was doing the same thing at my club that Jay Delsing was doing on the tour. Same club, same ball, same rules.

So where does that go. They're in the middle of it. I'm up in the cheap seats now and not with my sleeves rolled up and trying to guide or impact that. But it's really hard. You know one of the things Jay that strikes me and I think you'll agree because again you're more technical than I. But if we're going to have swing speeds and ball spins at this rate. You know how about let's have the shot that's not perfectly struck end up where it did when you and I were kids.

Or when you and I were playing. You know DeChambeau is going to swing at 150 miles an hour then if he's not hitting that thing right smack in the sweet spot. Then that thing's got to go offline. And it's got to be penalized Tom. There has to be wedges so easily from the trees.

So is that an answer. Again I'm not advancing it as the be all end all but what DeChambeau is doing is going to be copied. I mean can you imagine that his what did I heard the stat yesterday that comparing his data or stats versus Dustin Johnson's which were you know arguably. Is there anybody more athletic than him anybody with greater swing speed and spin ratio.

I mean he's bounding by these guys. So this is going to be copied so out of the USJ and the RNA they got their work cut out for him. All right that's going to wrap up the Tom O'Toole Jr interview and the back nine. Don't forget the back nine is brought to you by my friends at the Fogelbach agency with farmers. Extraordinary effort deserves recognition. The management team at Marcon would like to say thank you to our over 500 employees and their families. Your dedication and commitment to our success has been so steadfast that we are experiencing another incredible year at a time when many businesses are struggling. Your performance has exceeded expectations. Every idea shared and every opportunity seized by you has led us to new heights. So thank you. Marcon is based in St. Louis Missouri and is the largest distributor of general electric compliance parts in North America. I want to thank Southeast general manager Terry Jones and Dan Marino with Miami based Flamingo appliance services for ensuring great service for Whirlpool products throughout southern Florida.

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That's Ed Foglebach at 314-398-0101. We are farmers. USA mortgage is doing it again. Joe Sheezer and his staff have lowered rates again this month and they will waive closing costs if you want to refinance to get cash out lower your rate shorten your term or eliminate that costly unnecessary mortgage insurance. If you are purchasing a property they can issue a pre-approval letter within minutes. They are the largest mortgage company in the state of Missouri and their volume allows them to quote the lowest rates. Don't waste your time with the national online brokers. USA mortgage is employee owned and operated right here in St. Louis.

Joe Sheezer has closed over $500 million in loans in nearly 30 years in the business and over $2 million alone to Delsings. For the last 48 years Pro-Am golf has been providing outstanding customer service to the greater St. Louis area for all of our golf needs. From top of the line equipment to full service club repaired lessons and instructions. They now have their own retail outlet as well as state of the art computers, cameras and things to customize all of your personal club fitting needs. Pro-Am golf carries all the major brands.

They also have the latest fashion trends from Puma Golf. Whatever your needs Pro-Am golf will meet them and have the best customer service in the industry. Call us at 314-781-7775 or find us at proamgolfusa.com Grab your friends, a cold one and pull up a chair. We're on to the 19th hole on golf with Jay Delsing. The 19th hole is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Welcome back this is Golf with Jay Delsing. I'm your host Jay, I've got Jon Pribis with me. Brad Barnes is here at the ESPN studio taking care of us and we are headed to the Michelob Ultra 19th hole.

I've had a couple of those in my life. I'm not mad about it either. What do you think about the Mr. O'Toole interview?

So we can't talk about beer anymore? So I was impressed. First of all, Tom's got an incredible resume. But I was impressed that he came out and took a stand like he did. And I'm glad he did.

He should. Now the USGA has had several bites at this cherry and they have just not done it. The last thing they took on Jon was the anchoring with the putter. I'm not saying that's not important.

But man alive it just seems like this golf ball equipment power equation. It's like fifth on the list. Let's take that one on. Maybe they did it just to test the waters and it couldn't have been any fun.

None of it is going to be fun. But I'll tell you he was pretty dang adamant that something better be done. I'm not sure how it can't. Here's the problem. We live in such a litigious society.

You know this world from hanging out all the years with me and stuff. Those manufacturers are going to go crazy if the people that are supporting this game day in and day out around this country can't play the same stuff we do. That's what's hard.

I think that they need to be able to play the same stuff. I think it's just kind of a tough situation. I think it's also tough to say OK we're going to stop the progress of any given thing because those same manufacturers want to sell you something new every year every six months if you're really a nut some things like that. And it makes it tough. But I love too what he was saying. I think you were mentioning it. Bryson DeChambeau is awesome.

He's a heck of a player but give him a persimmon wood and the old balada ball get about 25 mile an hour winds there and try to hit it 390 yards then and he might but that that error range will go about 50 yards more one way or the other. Man that's going to do it for another show. I want to thank Bob and Kathy Donahue at Donahue Painting and Refinishing 314-805-2132. Call those guys. Great people.

They'll help you out with your house. Really thanks. It was great Jay. Enjoyed it again. Thanks so much for taking care of us and we will see you next week.

Hit them straight St. Louis. That was golf with Jay Delsing brought to you by Whitmore Country Club. Tune in next Sunday for more from Jay John and the other pros and experts from the golf world. In the meantime you can find all of Jay's shows at 101 ESPN.com as well as at JayDelsonGolf.com