Tom Watson and Brian Fogt-Sunday, -Golf with Jay Delsing

This is golf with Jay Delsing, a two-time All-American at UCLA, a participant in nearly 700 PGA Tour events, seven professional wins to his credit, over 30 years of professional golf experience, a member of the St. Louis Sports Hall of Fame. This is Golf with Jay Delsing. Good morning and welcome to Golf with Jay Delsing. I'm your host, Jay.

I got Jon Perlis with me, longtime friend, getting in over 100 PGA Tour events on the PGA Tour for me and God willing pro, you're going to get the caddy in September at the Ascension Charity Classic take three. This is going to be fun. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm doing fine, Jay. Still doing my calisthenics, my pushups, getting ready for the big September event.

I'm ready. We formatted the show like a round of golf and this first segment is called the On the Range segment and it's brought to you by the Gateway section of the PGA. I want to thank those folks again for their support and all they do for the game. For all of us who get out to play, who enjoy playing golf, all they do in running tournaments, getting the golf courses ready for us, it's just fantastic. I also want to thank Jeff Thornhill with Taylor Made Golf because Thorny supplies us with a dozen TP5 golf balls that we give away each week to some lucky listener.

Just email me, Jay at jdelsinggolf.com and that's Jay spelled out on both ends of that and you'll be entered into the drawing. All right folks, love to hear from you regarding the new format of our show. Starting in March, Danny McLaughlin and I will launch a national podcast called Beyond the Fairways. There we have big name guests and interviews along with some tips and how to improve your game, comments and things like that, talking about the latest innovations and much, much more.

So it's called Beyond the Fairways with a Nest. So you please go out and subscribe now. Last week we heard from David Farity, John. This week we've got the great Tom Watson and followed by our continuation of our teacher series. So we've got Brian Folt coming on on the front nine and the back nine and we're going to hear, and by the way, Brian Folt's been voted the best teacher in the state of Missouri for about the last 10 years.

So you don't want to miss out on that, but first we have Tom Watson. So Pearl, I asked Tom, was there a moment in your career when you knew you had arrived? Because if you remember, he had a lot of struggles trying to win and close out golf tournaments. And this is what Tom said.

The way I look at it, I say, well, I need to confirm that I need to keep confirming. Can I beat the best in the game? And, uh, when I won at Turnberry, uh, walking off the green Jack took me, he took his arm, put him around my neck and squeezed it hard and said, you know, Tom, I gave you my best shot, but it wasn't good enough. And that one line, uh, it just said to me, well, I can, I can play with the big boys now. You know, I can do it. You know, I can beat the best.

You know, my career really took off after that. Wow. Pearl, can you imagine what that must've felt like to have a great Jack Nicklaus say that to you?

Yeah. I liked the part where he gave him the big, uh, aggressive bear hug. I think there was a message message in that as well. You know, Jerry, that just made so many old feelings come to the surface. Cause don't we end up having to improve ourselves at each level and didn't, didn't that happen to you in golf? Oh, John, absolutely. And then John, it's no different in business as well, right? There's always people there that are pushing you or, or, or testing you. It's a life thing. I agree with you, whether it's business, it's at school, you're playing another sport, whatever the case is, there's always that next level. Do I belong?

Can I compete? I just love the way you said it. And it's, it's crazy because somehow there was a time we've talked about this, that he had kind of a choker can't win. Can't get it done. Something's wrong with his swing. He needs to change things.

They just kept on hanging in there and he learned all throughout that process that he more than became a champion. Absolutely. So I, I, I had to ask this question. So I asked Tom, what are your thoughts about live golf? Two different competitions. One, one is, uh, uh, the way I look at it as a proper competition, PGA tour, it determines the best golfer, right?

Right then and there, you, you, you have to make a cut. Uh, you play four rounds. That's the way that, that to me is the proper way of playing professional golf. The other tour is an exhibition tour. Uh, and I'm not taking anything away from the quality of players out there, but there's not very much pressure out there. It's when you're playing the PGA tour, there's some pressure.

There's two different types of pressure situations that I, that I see between the two tours. And that's a big difference. And you know, Pearl, not a huge surprise there. I thought I, there's just something about, about Tom, when he, when he speaks it, uh, it, it commands some attention, at least to me. I like how straightforward he is. I think that's one reason that you liked him so much. I think that's why one reason he can be so respected. Yeah. It's just an interesting thing. And I'm sure it gets under the crowd of those, those guys as it does you, but even the guys previously to you that really kind of set the path and the whole PGA tour and make it made it what it is today. Yeah, absolutely. So I did, uh, said when I was sitting down with Tom, I asked him in terms of the modern game, especially compared to his era when he was in his prime and in the eighties and, uh, uh, tail end of the seventies, what he misses the most about the game.

And I thought this was really an interesting answer. You know what I miss? I miss the style that the golf pros used to have on the tour where they dressed, you know, they really were in fact, you know, they really took pride in how they dress from Byron Nelson. Uh, he saw, you know, saw the players, uh, you know, Byron Arnie Jack, not so much when he first started, but then he got the word that said, Jack, you got to improve your dress for the old guys, the way they presented themselves, the way they looked in the golf course.

I kind of missed that. You know, the styles today are, it's all athletic. There's no, you know, nobody wears leather shoes anymore.

It's all athletic shoes. And I guess that's the look. And, uh, we took pride in how we dressed, uh, you know, and, and looked at, I think a little bit more than the kids today do because it's part of the societies. It's the casual is casual part of the society that, uh, in the informality of it, it, uh, it has changed. Some of those old clothes that Hogan and demerit wore, those things were really, really cool, but I don't know about some of the crazy plaids and all the other stuff. I'm not exactly sure what time was, was meaning by that. I'm glad you said it that way.

Cause I didn't want to be the odd duck out here. I think he's missing it a little bit, or at least from his perspective, if he wanted things to stay very traditional, traditional and the same, but Jade, the guys, mostly guys really dress up. I think, I think, uh, look fantastic. Look professional.

It's a, it's a different look. It's not, you know what he said, well, they don't even wear leather shoes anymore. Dang, those foot joy, leather shoes, those foot joy classics that we were so proud to get in college. We're trying to play 18, let alone 36 on Sundays with those things that beat you up. That's not what you want on tour for longterm.

It's too tough on your body. That sucked Pearl. Those shoes looked really good.

They sucked. They hurt. I mean, they hurt to break in.

And then once the leather on the bottom wore out, it felt like the nails were coming right through the bottom of your feet. I think that there's so much more going on in this, in the sport. And there's so much more demand physically that the guys just aren't going to give up that, uh, no way Skechers, if you will, the lighter stuff, these as soft spikes, et cetera, they're just not going to, it's so much easier on your body. And that's important out there at any time, but particularly now with these swing species guys are getting, and then the bands of these golf courses. This is what this was neat because we got talking about, I asked Tom, what sort of advice could you give to some young players, some men and women coming up? How about some parents on, on their kids, on golf, whatever it may be.

And Tom had a great answer, at least I know in yours and my eyes. Don't concentrate on one sport. I know it's a difficult thing with kids anymore because if they're looking to get good enough to get a scholarship to college, then their coaches and their parents, they say you have to play this sport all year round.

I don't like that. I think that kids ought to have, you know, they ought to have fun playing a lot, a variety of, of sports activities outside that developed certain skills, different skills. I played football and basketball, ran track and uh, you know, of course played golf through high school and actually some intramural sports when I was going to college. I think that develops in a well-rounded body and, and uh, you know, it doesn't burn you out.

I think a lot of kids get burnt out with, with the programs that they're getting forced to do. You know, Pearl, I smiled when he said this, I did not know he was going to feel this way, but he said, play multiple sports. Well, that's not a surprise to us. How many times have we heard that from so many greats, actually greats in different, uh, different sports as well? I don't know. You know, I'm in the middle of it with some grandkids and they are soccer, soccer, soccer, and then they'll take a break and play soccer, soccer, soccer.

So I can't get it across to them. And I think it's a huge miss, but you know, trends and fashions happen and that's the one we're in right now. Absolutely. And then lastly, the last question that, that, uh, we're dropping in from the great Tom Watson was his thoughts on technology. Is it good or bad for the game? And here's what Tom said.

Well, I do. I think it, uh, by thinking it easier to play, hit the ball straighter. You don't have to hit the ball right in the absolute center of the golf club.

It's made it easier for people to play and they have more enjoyment when they play better. The USDA did an experiment with when, when the big headed drivers, the big headed metal drivers came at the 460 CC drivers came out, they did an experiment where they took that driver and they took a persimmon, the old persimmon head, which is a lot smaller. And they purposely, you know, they found the center of the face of the driver and then they purposely hit the, hit the ball with their machine, five eighths of an inch off center from that center all the way around the clock. They've, they found a tremendous difference in the distance that the ball went in with a large headed driver. It only affected the distance by five yards with 109 mile an hour swing speed as a pro speed with the persimmon driver, you lost 49 yards in distance when you buy five of an inch off center. And that's a, you learn when you play that equipment, you learn that you, you know, you learn how to hit the pole right in the middle of the club face all the time. If you're going to be any good.

One of the things that sticks out in my mind, and I want to get your thoughts. There's so much passion and conviction in his voice. And the fact that he knew that little, that unknown tidbit about the USGA was really interesting. And also not surprising from someone like Tom Watson. No, he knows his stuff.

He's totally entrenched. If he loves the game, he loves all aspects of the game. Yeah. Every time I think of this, the new equipment, it levels the playing field so much, doesn't it Jay?

It's just amazing. You know, back in the day you get persimmon trucks out there, you get the blotter balls and a guy that was a 20, 25 handicap and you're, you're, you know, low handicap. There was a huge, huge disparity.

It was never going to get, get much closer. And that's not the case these days. You guys with some of the equipment these days can really get away with a lot of things and I I'm with them, you know, it helps people enjoy the game more. So I think you'd have to call it a good thing.

I absolutely love what he said, bro. We get so wrapped up in technology and whether it's good or bad for the tour game, if you look at it as a whole, I totally agree with what you said and what Tom said. I mean, it is, it is adding to so some everyone's pleasure. Even if it's only two or three drives around, it's a big deal. It's the hope you got, you know, nowadays with the 25 handicapper, he's got twice as much hope each round that he had before, or maybe four times as much hope.

And you know, a lot of us live on hope. That's right. Well folks, the podcast that's going to come out in March is called beyond the fairways. I'm honored to have four time, any Emmy award winner, Danny McLaughlin as my cohost. So please go wherever you find your podcasts and subscribe to beyond the fairways with an S. Uh, and that would be great. Pearl.

This is going to wrap up the, on the range segment. We're going to tip our cap and the tip of the cap is brought to you by Dean team Volkswagen and Kirkwood three one four nine six six zero three zero three folks. Colin Bert is your man. If you want me to personally introduce you to Colin, send me an email J at J Delson golf.com and I will do it for you because I have that much confidence.

Colin Colin will find you whatever it is you want. I'm tipping my cap today, John, and you hit the nail on the head. I'm tipping my cap to all those men and women, whether they're professional golfers, whether they were amateur golfers, all of those that came before us, growing the game, playing the game, whether it was playing on the men's tour, the women's tour, the an African American tour, whatever it was working in a golf shop, you name it, they built it. And I am grateful for all of the foundational work that those folks did to help us get to where we are today. And hopefully we are still adding to it.

That's the tip of the cap. It's brought to you by the Dean team, Volkswagen of Kirkwood three one four nine six six zero three zero three. That's going to wrap up the on the range segment, but we'll have Brian folk coming up as art in our teacher series for February considers early with me. This is golf with Jay Delson that was on the range with Jay Delson for news on the latest golf equipment tips. And to ask Jay a question, log on to J Delson golf dot com.

Coming up, it's the front nine on golf with Jay Delson. I love having dirty business solutions as the title sponsor of the golf with Jay Delson show, you already know that they're the number one largest it consulting firm and the largest software developer in the St. Louis region. You also know that there are over 2500 dirty teammates in 30 states and three countries around the world. But what you may not be aware of is what dirty business solutions does right here in our own community. They were the sponsor for the first advocate PGA event at Glen echo this past September dirty business solutions was also a presenting sponsor of the Ascension charity class. They have created access point which builds diversity in the IT workforce. This is a game changer in our community. Literally hundreds of mostly young African American women are getting 50 to $60,000 per year jobs right out of high school.

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That's j delsing golf calm. The legends of golf returned to St. Louis in 2023. You won't want to miss one of the strongest fields in golf, Ernie Els, Steve Stricker, Bernard Langer, john Daly and many more when they compete for the 2023 Ascension charity classic title September 5 through the 10th at historic Norwood Hills Country Club all proceeds benefit area charities. Together, we were able to donate over $1 million to those most in need last year. Visit Ascension charity classic.com. This is the front nine on golf with Jay delsing. The front nine is presented by the Ascension charity classic September 5 through the 10th at Norwood Hills Country Club.

Find out more at Ascension charity classic.com. Hey, I'm sitting down this morning. It's golf with Jay delsing. I'm sitting down with my longtime buddy, the director of instruction at Bell Reef and you've been affiliated with Bell Reef for over 20 years in your career.

This is Mr. Brian folk folk man. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much, Jay. It's, it's an honor and I would enjoy getting to talk golf with people and you in particular, we have a we have a long history together.

We sure do. We were gonna have to talk about the famous float helicopter trick, but that's going to be later in conversation, man. So I just want to first congratulate you on your career. I mean, what sticks out so much in my mind, I know you've won the teacher of the year in our section multiple times, but Brian, for the last 10, 12 years, you've been the number one instructor in the entire state of Missouri, man. Congratulations. Thank you, Jay. I mean, it's, it's, uh, as I said to a bunch of people, it's humbling and an honor and told someone this morning, I'm blessed to do something that I love to do fairly good at, and I was blessed to be around the top teachers and players in, in the game, literally from working for David Ledbetter and coming up here and working with Jerry Tucker and getting to take lessons when I was in college from Jack grout who taught Nicholas, I have a kind of a unique, had a unique opportunity to be exposed literally to the best of the best.

I'm just trying to pass that knowledge and experience along to people that are passionate about the game and you're doing so. So, so talk, let's start at Ohio state, man. You played golf at Ohio state and Jack grout.

What a thrill that had to be. My buddy Brian Bogg was at Ohio state. I played at Miami at the same time. Ohio state was a powerhouse back then, but yeah, after my freshman year, my, my girlfriend's father gave me a, I grew up playing public golf. He gave me a, the money to go take some lessons from Jack grout. It was in 1978. It was a hundred bucks an hour.

I don't know what that is in today's dollars, but it's a lot, but mr. Grout was amazingly gracious and Olin Brown working with him back then is where I met Olin. I took a quantum leap forward just by getting exposed to the fundamentals that he helped me with that I still try to help people with. So buddy, you, you played golf at a high level. I know that we played, we traveled a little bit here and there on, on some of the various tours together.

Talk a little bit about the earlier years and kind of the things that helped develop you would help you to develop later on as a teacher. Obviously I, I didn't play yourself. Jay Williamson, Trevor Dodds from here in St. Louis had long stints on the regular tour. I played more on the Nike buy.com. I had some conditional status on the tour, but just from playing in us opens and being around guys from our generation, like I said, I got exposed to the highest levels of the game, whether it's hockey or basketball or baseball. If you, if you hang out with the very best of the best and you pay attention, you learn what works.

So I got a chance to do that and took physical notes and mental notes. I still believe Jay that even with all the technology and stuff that's out there, fundamentals of any sport. I went to high school basketball last night in O'Fallon and the best basketball players have good fundamentals. As we were talking a little bit ago, whether it's, whether I'm trying to help somebody like Scott Langley win the NCAA golf championship, excuse me, which he did, or a 25 handicap player out of Bell Reed is the fundamentals are still in play. That's kind of what I hang my hat on coupled with a good short game and potting. It seems to be the right recipe.

Totally agree with you. And the fundamentals, I mean, Brian, when I was playing, if I could get my body set up correctly, I would say 75 to 80% of the bad shots I hit were because of things that I did before I hit the golf ball, either not making the correct mental commitment or not having my body in the right position. Yeah, I met a lady a couple of weeks ago that has nose Ellen port. She knows another lady from St. Louis country club. Her name is Kathy. I'd never met her before.

She was 79 years old. She had an awesome swing and is because she had a great grip, great posture and set up. The ball doesn't know. I kidded with her. I just, the ball doesn't know how old you are.

I mean, she just, she was smacking it again, like watching the hoops last night. Or how your wrist work, shooting a basketball or throwing a baseball or swinging a golf club is, is crucial. And, um, I still sometimes been Hogan's book gets a bad rap. It seems like from some people in the golf world, but you and Jay Williamson and Ellen port and myself, we all have good grips.

And because of that, our risks have a chance to, to hinge and unhinge correctly. And that goes a long way to swinging the golf club properly. I believe when you were kind of, and you probably may or may not have known it at the time, but kind of developing your golf TNA, who would you say had, who are the biggest influencers when I left college and I went, I went down to Florida, I got a job with David Ledbetter before he was famous. I hung out for six months with these guys from South Africa named Dennis Watson and Nick price. And now I teach at the club where Nick price on the PGA. And I heard recently tiger woods. I mean, you think about high praise when tiger woods said Nick price was the most impressive ball striker.

That's, that's a heck of a statement, man. I got to watch him practice. He was obsessed in terms of doing drills. I would say that time down there, I also got to watch Mo Norman, which, you know, the younger generation, that's a name from the past.

I watched him probably 20 times in person. Those two things had a, they had a significant impact on view of the golf swing and of, of hitting it solid. I mean, at the end of the day, Jay, I watched Australian open tennis last night. If you don't hit the tennis ball solid, you can't control it. And the same thing holds true with golf. You've got to hit it in the center of the club face, relatively close to that to have control.

I got to watch two of the best ball strikers in the history of the game up close and personal. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, Brian, that it's certain ages in certain times, we seem to be more open to some of this, these messages than when others and you know, when I pray for things, I don't pray for anything subtle. I need to be run over by stuff.

I need to be hit in the head really hard. Pay attention. And it sounds like this time in your life was really important.

Most definitely. And, and I took that, uh, it helped me. Uh, I had a couple of near misses, uh, out on the tour. Uh, I almost won the Western open a whole bunch of years ago, uh, as a Monday qualifier. You know, I just didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I hadn't met Jerry Tucker and Stan Utley and, uh, my short game wasn't as good back then as it is now, as I told a young man yesterday, I'm going to help you put the pieces of the puzzle together in terms of playing golf. It's not just about the swing. I mean, that's an important component of it, but you gotta competent around the greens and be a great putter.

And you've got to have, uh, the mental side for me personally, I wish I would've had access. I didn't, I didn't get to read golf. It's not a game of perfect until I was 45 years old. It wasn't, you can't read a book that's not written, you know, and, uh, I tell people all the time, I'm a reformed perfectionist. I wanted, it bothered me greatly when I didn't hit what I thought was that quote unquote perfect shot.

It's not possible. It's not, everybody misses a shot. And, uh, the mental component I believe is, is whether you're looking at Hale Irwin from here or, or tiger or Jack Nicklaus, they, they had, they had the mental component, Bernard Langer that, you know, kind of separates them from their peers even. No question. And as we wrap up this first segment, Brian, let's talk a little bit about the Tucker's. I mean, Jerry and Mike, what, first of all, what great ambassadors for the game of golf here locally, just super humans. First of all, really great people and good players. And Jerry developed that short game test and you know, he was the consummate professional. Wasn't he? I just said that exact thing last week when, before I came home, you know, guys like Bob Ford from up there at Oakmont, uh, and Jerry, Jim Garring, who was at near field, they, they checked all the boxes. They weren't just good merchandisers or a good instructors.

They played the game at a super high level. I saw Jerry in the parking lot. I don't ask him if he shot his age. I asked him how many he beat his age by. I know it's so true. Isn't it?

Yeah. Which is if you, if you shoot your age in competition tournament, that's no small feat. He like us and, and Mike, we have a passion to play the game, but also to share the other elements of it. That has been such a big part of our life. You know, that was, again, that was a blessing. Great ambassadors, as you said, for golf in St. Louis, we're getting on the map now with the president's common cup coming and having the great PGA a couple of years ago that kept the one and it's St. Louis is a, is a great ball community. Well, I mean the Tucker's bell reef country club, you know, keeping us relevant, keeping us in the golf conversation.

Now, gosh, I'm so grateful for that. That's going to wrap up the front nine, but don't go anywhere. Brian and I'll be back for more on the, on the back nine. This is golf with J Delsin.

That was the front nine presented by the Ascension charity classic coming up. It's the back nine and more of golf with J Delsing. The official vehicle provider of the golf with J Delsing show is the Dean team, the Dean team, Volkswagen of Kirkwood. They provide me, Pearly and our families with all of our cars. The reason we went with the Dean team is because we could trust them. We knew at the Dean team, they were going to take care of us and they have, they made the entire car buying experience so simple.

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That's powersinsurance.com. This is the back nine on golf with Jay Delsing. The back nine is presented by Pro-Am golf located in Brentwood.

See what Pro-Am golf can do for you. Hey, welcome back. This is Jay. I've got Brian Folk with me and this is the second half of our interview.

So Brian, we were just talking about Bell Reef and the Tucker influence. What I wanted you to share with the folks is that talk a little bit about teaching and talk a little bit about the difference between having a five handicap come up and ask you for a lesson or have a 25 handicap person come up and ask you for a lesson and how important was it to you that you played a game at such a high level? I can honestly say, I mean, I just was with Adam Long and I didn't know that he was going to get a scholarship to Duke and I certainly didn't know he was going to win on the PGA tour and that I went to watch him play at the Masters 2019, which was a thrill and he obviously has different goals and aspirations than, like you said, somebody who's trying to break 90 for the first time and has limited amount of time to practice. I tell people all the time, my word, folks, ultimately comes down to I can help them practice effectively. So many people practice the wrong stuff or just mindlessly hitting balls and if that's what they want to do, that's fine. But if they're really intent on improving, again, whatever level it's at comes down to working on the right stuff, being effective in their practicing versus you know, there's that old cliche in sports practice doesn't make perfect perfect practice makes perfect. Well, Adam and Adam and I changed that changed it to effective practice produces effective results.

And that is way more logical and way more rational than perfect practice doesn't exist. You know, Brian, this reminds me when we were at UCLA, we had the great coach john wooden would talk to our UCLA golf team every six or eight weeks or so. And he said the same thing. He said, practice doesn't make perfect perfect practice makes perfect.

And we were kind of like, well, you know, because we're a bunch of ragtag guys that didn't grow up in a country club, we had balls on fields and things like that, you know, and so in order for us to practice perfectly, it was really difficult to try to understand what that looked like. Yeah, and he was more into the I've read all his books, my buddy, Tom Lehman, when he was the writer, our buddy, Tom Lehman got to sit down with him when he was the Ryder Cup captain. That was one person I wish I would have been able to meet is john wooden. I've read all his books, and he was more into the process than the outcome.

And if you did the process, right, the outcome would take care of itself. Oh, Brian, that was such a huge thing for me to learn. And Bob Rotella was instrumental and his books were instrumental in getting me over that hump. You and I played the first thing I ever did in golf Jay was at the Western am years and years ago when I against how Sutton who was the next jack Nicklaus, I have it saved to my favorites on my phone, quote, something he put on Twitter last year that said if he had a million balls in practice, if he had a do over, he would have hit half as many half as many and taken twice as many practice swings without a ball and worked on his mechanics or his his technique that he was trying to ingrain. Because when you're hitting balls, people get distracted with the outcome all the time. And again, I don't care whether it's learning how to dive off a diving board or learning to shoot a free throw. Your technique matters. And sometimes got to get separated from the outcome. It's okay.

It's okay to fail while you're learning how to do it, I guess is the point. So too many too many people hitting balls. If they hit a bad one, they start Why did I do that? What's? Brian, one of the things that I noticed is I feel like if when I watch people practice still hit six or eight really good ones hit one bad one and the bad one has so much more impact on them than the good ones. What's that all about?

I think it's about the same thing. They were just horrible shootings out in California. I'm not gonna say it's an obsession, but it's a focus on the negative. And it's why the news it's why they put that stuff on there, I guess. But there's also inspiring, positive, uplifting stories do that don't get broadcast.

And it's one of the things that I implemented in my teaching is that I tell people you want to make positive mental deposits, not negative mental deposits. Every bad crappy shot you hit plants a seed of doubt. It's what happened with our I've never met the man I have great respect for him. Rick Ankel is it was a I have his book sitting on my nightstand.

I haven't started reading it yet. But he lost his confidence, man. I mean, I and I think he's a phenomenal athlete.

And I have great respect for him. But when he was on the mound, he he didn't know where the stinking ball was going to go at when he had to walk away from pitching the same kind of thing happens in golf. You know, where people they don't know what they don't know where the ball is going to go and they lose confidence start focusing on the bad stuff if it kind of snowballs and perpetuates itself to talk a little bit in your opinion about how much you should think when it comes to the swing because I keep reminding people all the time you're an athlete hit this ball. You know, I could stand next to a student or one of your students or you for example, pick up a ball and toss it to you and you're going to open your hand catch it and not think twice about it. I mean, the golf swing takes less time than that little activity.

Yet we've got way more brain activity going on that we need don't we a man with three exclamation points. And I've got a thing that on my phone that I used with some students of Olga Corbett, the Olympic gymnast in the 1972 Olympics won the gold medal with on the uneven parallel bars with a flawless routine, which you know, nobody wants to see me on the uneven parallel bars. I would break them but she practiced it enough times that it was a reflex to your point. She wasn't thinking about it.

She was on autopilot. That's part of the some of my beloved friends and members at Belle Reve have home practice areas with the Sydney with track man and all that stuff and I'm not anti that gets so analytical that they're turning a sport into a science and it's not it's a sport man when Nolan are not Oh fields a ground ball at third base. It's a hot shot and he fires it over to Paul Goldschmidt to think I mean, it's a it's it's it's total reflex. And I think the best players get to the point where they're visualizing and they're seeing the shots and it's very, very close to a reflex.

It's not they're not going through some checklist of what to do. You know, you know, Brian, you brought up Dennis Watson who had an unbelievable career one, one multiple times on the PGA Tour. And I recant this story from Bob Rotella that after his great successes first year, and working with Bob, he set up a meeting and he flies to Charlottesville. And Dennis has got five books.

They're all about two or three inches thick. And they're all on modern sports psychology. And Bob said, What are you doing with those? And you know, because that's Dennis's personality, extremely analytical. And Bob said, What are you doing with those? And Dennis said, Gosh, if I can just master the sports psychology, my golf game. And Bob said, No, no, no, let me be the sports psychologist, you be the golfer. I'll tell you what you need to know.

You don't need to read those books. And Dennis found himself in rabbit holes several times in his career because of it. One of the things that stood out to me when I worked for Dr. Ledbetter down there in Florida after Nick Price, one and Dennis Watson won, then the phone started ringing off the hook.

And people from all over the world were coming to Greenleaf Golf Resort. One of them was Nick Faldo, you know him way better than I do. But I spent a fair amount of time with him early in his career. He was very analytical and technical. He wasn't getting the results that he wanted. And he he was overthinking. And he and David were on the practice tee.

And it was like a manager and an umpire. Nose to nose, they were arguing. They Nick was mad.

He wasn't playing better. And David, I'll never I can still picture him saying this. He said, Darn it, Nick, except he used a different word.

Darn it, Nick, you practice your swing to forget about it when you play. That's true. It's true. And it's hard. It's hard for people to do that. Especially my experience with people that are successful in the medical and business climate in their world and they're used to using their brain to solve problems. They want to carry that over to golf and it doesn't necessarily work that way. Well, there's a big component that's missing and that's called talent.

And I tell a lot of my doctor friends, my beloved doctor friends have been kind of taught brand to your point that if you gain enough information, you're going to be able to figure it out. And to a degree, that's true. But when it comes to sport, Oh my gosh, B it's not, there's a, there's a cliff that you fall off there because you've got to have a bill natural and, and some God given ability.

I still think I'd be interested to get your take on this. I would love to ask Tiger Woods this. I think the most naturally gifted golfer in history has gotta be between Sam Snead and John Daly. John Daly is just, he still plays good. He looks like Santa Claus and he just, you know, in Fred couples has got to had a great career and they're just letting it happen. You know, there's always going to be a Bryson DeChambeau or somebody that like that, that who is Uber technical and Mackle Grady, the golf machine from our generation, the best players right now, John Rahm, you know, he doesn't have a quote unquote perfect golf swing, but beaten the course pretty handily.

Every time he plays it pretty much. He sure is. And he's confident in what he does. Well, right, Brian.

I mean, that's what's really important. And the same thing with our friend, Jerry Tucker, who I just talked to Jerry, he doesn't have a quote unquote perfect swing or a perfect potting stroke or anything. He, he is confident in what he's doing.

And you cannot, cannot put a price tag on that, man. I mean, that Larry Bird, Larry Bird was great basketball player and he was super confident. He didn't have a jump shot like Clay Thompson, but he was super confident. He knew what he did, what he was good at. And he obviously had an amazing career, Brian, thank you so much for spending this time.

I want to wrap this up. Please give us some information on how our listeners and how our fans can reach out to you, maybe get a lesson, pick your brain. You're a wonderful guy. I know you're, you love growing the game.

That's one of our, our commonalities here that we, we, uh, we want to do in our time with, uh, while we still have it. Like I said, it's a privilege and honor to get to do something that I love to do. And you know, the best way to reach out, you can either contact me through bell reef at 314-434-4405. Or my email address is super simple.

It's brian.boat at iCloud.com. I am still doing stuff indoors. Uh, the high school boys golf season starts here, uh, in a month, a swing's a swing, whether it's outdoors or indoors. So I'm still, uh, busy helping folks with their swings, even during these snowy days. Brian, thank you so much, man, and keep fixing those hooks and slides, buddy. I will do it. Thanks so much for having me on and, uh, God bless you, my friend.

And I look forward to cross the path with you soon. This has been the back nine presented by pro and golf. We'll make the turn into the clubhouse and head into the 19th hole. That's next on golf with Jay Delsing.

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Visit Ascension Charity Classic Dotcom. This is golf with Jay Delsing and let's head to the 19th hole. Hey, welcome back. This is Golf with Jay Delsing. I'm your host, Jay. John Pearlis is with me like always, and we're headed to the 19th hole. And gosh, John, such a cool show. Brian Fote. What a great career he's had helping people with their game. We get to hear from the great Tom Watson.

This show, I just like kind of switching this show up a little bit, Pearl. Hey, until we move to the Brian Fote interview, tell tell you a story or maybe your best story with Tom Watson. One time, oh, it was probably in the middle nineties. I'm playing at the Westchester Classic, which is one of my favorite courses up in Westchester County, New York. And on on Thursday and Friday, I get paired with Seve Ballesteros and Sandy Lyle. And oh, my gosh, it was awesome.

And I was like, this is so cool. Then on Saturday, I get paired with Tom Watson and we both shoot 71. And on Sunday, turn around and get paired with Tom again. And so it was like I was sitting down having dinner on Saturday night knowing that I got to play with Tom Watson and again again. And I said to my sister, Kim, who was up, you know, used to work in New York with Calvin Klein and my dearest friends in the world. And I said, you know what, sis, this is beat a legend weekend for me.

We had a great time with it. And ironically, I got Sandy and I got Seve. But Tom and I tied.

I had about an eight footer and I know Tom wasn't even caring about this, but I had about an eight footer on the last hole to beat Tom Watson on Sunday. And I missed it. I was pissed about it. Oh, he knew. I promise you he knew. He might have. He might have.

It's interesting like that. But anyway, just some great stuff. I got to do an ALS fundraiser with Tom here in St. Louis, probably about five years ago. Pearl raised a bunch of money for the great Bruce Edwards, who Tom happened to meet in 1973 in the parking lot, John of Norwood Hills here in St. Louis, where I grew up, Katie. And then Bruce was such a wonderful guy, a great caddy, one of the biggest name caddies out on tour when I was there.

He treated me so kindly, took me under his wing, showed me a few things, had some pointers for me about playing the tour. And it's, you know, sometimes I get just pinch myself, John, that I was able to hang out there and get to experience some of those things. I love the stories that you've got with those, those, those guys. And obviously you're that guy to a lot of other people, but it's fun to hear the old war stories with these, these classic hall of Famers. Did you ever think, I mean, this is pretty cool that we get to tell some of those stories, some of the others we can't tell, but they're still, they're still good. We have to have a cocktail or two in some dark room somewhere. We've done that a few times. I agree with that.

Okay. So let's transition over to Brian food. What a nice career.

Brian food is carved out for himself. You know, a really good player went to the university of Miami, Ohio, and, and, uh, played on the nationwide and those tours quite a bit. And it's a pretty big deal pro to be, to be titled the best teacher in Missouri. Um, one year alone, but you know, for a decade, it's pretty strong.

Oh, it's fantastic. You can just kind of tell by his demeanor. And I appreciate that you talk about what a wonderful player he was because he was a great player. He was in contention to be, to, to win.

He'd be out there for a long time. So he really brings a legacy experience to his teaching. It's, it's really interesting, John. I had the pleasure of, uh, earlier in the week of hosting the teaching and coaching summit for the folks, my friends at the gateway section. And we had Brian fold in the, in the gallery and we had Mike Bender, uh, who came up as was our guest. And it was just, you know, you sit there and you, I've been hanging around with these guys for so long. Sometimes you just don't look around and appreciate what some of these guys have accomplished. And you know, you got the Mike benders of the world, you got the Brian folks in the world.

They've been doing this for a long time. Our buddy Roger gun, John is, has had a phenomenal career helping people with their golf games in it. And you know, John getting to talk to these guys, you can tell they deeply, deeply care about the experience and about what they're doing for their pupils. You know, it's, it's, I'm so glad you brought it up. It's so interesting to watch the guys that stayed in the game to that level, that type as, as did you in many ways, as you're still very involved in the game and I kind of moved away from it, but the Roger guns and the Mike benders, those, those group. And there's many, many more that have been mentioned out there. I just had a lot of respect for him, but again, they had a certain love at the next level love than I ever did for the game.

And they've done wonderful things for it and they positively affected an awful lot of folks. Absolutely. So Pearl, we just wrapped up, had a Monday finish this past Monday of the AT&T tournament. Jen, we would be remiss if we didn't tell a story or two. We had some phenomenal experiences out of pebble beach and the AT&T event. You know, there, there was a ton, Jay. I still, for me, the one I reflect on was whatever day it was pebble beach, 18th hole, the wind's blowing with felt like 25, 30, and probably was close to that. The gorgeous ocean, the, the, the cliff sides, the green, the, the whole setup.

I just remember that so fondly and just absolutely. There's just very few places in the world, uh, like walking down the fairway and 18 hold 18, the 18th hole at pebble. I thought you were, I thought you were going to tell the folks about the massive drive a hit, hung it out over the Pacific, brought it back into the fairway and it pumped the ball on the middle of the 18th green, hanging it out over the ocean and rolling the putt in for Eagle. I thought you were going to tell them that story.

I was caddied. I don't remember that story. I don't, I don't either. I don't think that happened. Damn. Well, maybe next time.

I don't think so. Anyway, Jen, what are the things that strikes me so much about when you play a pebble is how short the golf ball goes in relative terms to, to like playing this week in Phoenix, for example, Jay, when I was playing mini tours and I was living in Phoenix and I would fly back and forth to Southern California to play in the mini tour events. The change in my body, the change in the air, the change in the field of the game was unbelievable. Back in that day in the desert, I'd be hitting a seven iron, probably one 55, maybe just under one 60, that type of thing.

You go out to the, to the, to the coast, the palace Verde's type of a deal. You get a little Marine layer going all of a sudden that one 58 turns into about one 45. And if there's just a little breath of wind into you to go to about one 42, one 43, it was a huge change, a huge difference.

And it was very difficult for me to adapt to it. It's still one of the things that I marveled the most about a tour player is how they can adapt with different conditions and the different, I don't know what you call it, uh, climates that, that these guys go to and they adapt so quickly because it's mentally, it's just hard to stand up there and try to rip a seven hour and one 45 when the day before I was hitting a one 58 Pearl, it's really interesting that you bring that up because I love to tell this story. So there was this doctor friend who is obviously a really bright guy and was a fan and used to follow us around. And, and, and, uh, he said to me, I don't understand how you can, we, you played in Phoenix last week and you hit a nine iron and it would go 155 to 160 yards and you come up to pebble beach and you're nine and you're telling me goes no more than 138. He says, how do you know that you're standing in essence in the middle of a field with a flag blowing and all these conditions vary. And I said, the only way I can explain it is that when I'm down in Phoenix and I've got 155 yard shot, a pitching wedge isn't enough and an eight iron is too much.

And when I get up to pebble beach, it's the same thing. Pearl, there's a feeling that runs through yet. You know, we talked about this all the time and we'll talk about it again at Ascension where we'll have a number and we'll talk about it, John, but I'll say to you, Pearl, I don't care about the number.

This is an eight iron shot and to your credit. And one of the things I love about getting to have you caddy for me, you will sign off on that a hundred times in a row. Well, I haven't had the feeling as a player a little bit, but I definitely can watch you and your body language. And also when you say something with some conviction, like we've talked about, you just know it. So that's that next level.

And I think Brian full talked about that too. It's getting away from perfect. It's getting into the field. It's getting away from the technology and the science of the game. And it's getting into the kind of feel and the rhythm of what you're, what you're sensing and feeling. If you don't have that, I don't think it's, you're going to be able to play it at a super high level. That's a, that's a next level instinct that, that you develop.

It really is Jen. And when you, when you've listened to tiger talk about, you know, what, what he would do, he played so much that way. When it was go time, he had a picture in his head and all he was thinking about was that target. And I mean, we're in the middle of that swing, you know, with all of that speed. And you think about it, John, if we break this down and try to help our listeners with their game, the golf swing itself, even if you don't swing at the speed of a tour player, it still doesn't take much more than a second Pearl.

There's just not enough time to do anything beneficial for you thinking wise. Well, if that's true, and the more we can get and just do that more of the natural bat and ball concept, the better off we are. Hey, there's one name. I, one thing that Brian talks about that I really enjoyed as well. Uh, and the, the, the teachers that were kind of his mentors, he just had a litany of just wonderful men, but I love the name that the fact that, uh, Mo Norman's name rose up. I thought that was cool. I was surprised. I was very surprised. And I agree with you, John Mo Norman, uh, never, never, ever gets enough credit for, for, uh, being the player.

You know, he had some strange and some quirky personality things and some, some, even some, some disabilities, maybe handicaps that, that, that definitely, you know, restricted us from appreciating the, the true lure, uh, uh, lure of, uh, Mo Norman, I think. Yeah, it's just fun. It's just, I think you can do the same thing. I can do the same thing when we look back and say, you know, who were our mentors in different parts of the game, different games and a little bit in life, it's just important to have those people in your life. And I appreciate that, uh, he was able to, uh, to share those with us.

Absolutely. Pearl, look at the time there it goes again. We got another show in the book and the end of books, man. Thank you so much for being with me today. Totally enjoyed it, Jay. Another great interview. Look forward to the next one. Absolutely. So our teacher series will continue next week and we're going to have some excerpts from the Mary Max Lee Trevino will be next week.

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