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Join our monthly support team today by calling 800 the letter A and the word family, 800-AFAMILY, or donate at focusonthefamily.com slash families. We have to be open to input, and women tend to be a little bit more open to input from others, and so that's a trait you want to develop. To say, wait a minute, when you're frustrated because your way isn't going well or nobody's accepting it, you've got to say, wait, let me open myself up and listen.
Maybe my way isn't the best way. Well, that's Debra Pagay, and she joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and she's going to encourage women who are in leadership. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. You know, John, as president of Focus on the Family, I've always been interested in leadership topics. It's not something we cover much on the broadcast, but it's something I am deeply interested in because it's a way that God gifts us to get things done, right? And sometimes I lead and sometimes I follow.
I can't remember whose song that was, but it's a good way to look at it. And today we do want to cover that idea of leadership, but specifically for women. And for women, leadership is a key narrative right now, whether it's in the workplace or in the home, women do lead. And over the last few decades, we've seen a rise in women leaders in our culture, and there's no doubt that their influence will have a lasting impact. And our guest is an example of that. She's a wonderful business leader and spiritual leader, and we're going to discuss many of the things that she has learned along the way. We are. Debra Pagay is really one of our most popular guests here.
We always get a great response from our audience. She spent many years in the corporate world, and she's a CPA, a certified behavioral consultant, a Bible teacher, international speaker, the author of a number of books. She's a busy lady. The book that we're going to be talking about today that forms the foundation for the conversation is called Lead Like a Woman, Gain Confidence, Navigate Obstacles, Empower Others. And we've got details about Debra and her book at our website.
The details are in the show notes. Debra, welcome back to Focus on the Family. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about our topic today, and it's just great to see you guys again. Oh, likewise.
It's so much fun. And Darnell, your husband's out there in the gallery, and we so appreciate seeing him too. Hey, Debra, let me start here.
This wasn't my original opening question, but I do want to get this up there. You know, today there can be so much controversy on male leadership and female leadership and biblical leadership and all those kinds of constructs. But you look at Proverbs 31, that woman who did so much. She seemingly ran a business. She ran the household.
She did a lot. And to the chagrin of many women who say, I can't be Proverbs 31 woman, but speak to the idea of women leadership from a biblical perspective. Well, Jim, let's just start at the very beginning. In Genesis 1, when God was giving the mandate and he said to them, the woman and the man, be fruitful and multiply. You see, that was a mandate to both of them. So from the beginning, God meant for men and women to work together, not to compete, but to complete.
And I always like to say this, that where he zigs, I zag. We're not just talking about in business today. We're talking about in any area. Leadership is influenced. So in any area where a woman is influencing others, that's what leadership is.
It's just working together. So I just want to make sure that we understand from the gate that we're not talking about up with women and down with men or anything like that. Right. Which is good. And that can get misconstrued.
And I just want to make sure that we could put listeners at ease. That's not the thing. But there are a lot of women in the workplace now that are leading.
And you're an example of that. I think right out of the gate, what have you observed when it comes to the differences in the leadership style between men and women? I believe God has empowered women with certain traits that really position them to be great leaders.
But he's positioned men as well. But we're going to focus on the women. And I think one of the first traits that he endowed us with is just being collaborative. Women like to co-laborate. We like to co-labor. We don't have to be the lone ranger. We like a group. We even all go to the restroom together. Okay, I can't figure that one out, but it's okay. Go ahead.
Yeah, men do not copy that one. No, we don't. But we realize the power of unity. And so we are more likely to say, let's get a group together. But I do want to also establish from the beginning that the traits we'll talk about that God has empowered women with, they're assets. But if they're used to the extreme, they become liabilities. So while we'd like to collaborate, if we collaborate too much, we'll never make a decision.
Let me ask you this. Another essential skill for a strong leader is communication. I see that on our board. I mean, we have four women on the board along with men, and they really can communicate very effectively, especially when it comes to reading the board book and things like that.
They really devour it and come in ready to go. Well, that's because they have no limitations on being judged as being too much of a communicator or talking too much. See, we can just keep talking.
Okay, now we're getting down to it. But communication isn't just about talking. It's that willingness to keep everybody informed.
It's a willingness to say, this is how I feel about it. But also in communication, you're reading the person you're talking with. I think women often will do that more successfully than men.
Generally, there's the 80-20 rule. But we want to make our point and make sure it gets across. Do you hear me? Do you understand?
I think women have a more kind of give and take in that regard. If they know you're not listening, they're going to ask you about that. Are you listening to me?
Yeah. And there's a story in 2 Samuel where Joab was coming to tear down this city, and there was a woman who had no position of authority. She was an influential woman, though. And she said, somebody bring him to me. And when he comes, she says, are you Joab? She says, listen to me.
I love that. I'm thinking like, who are you? Exerting all this authority. But you're right. Women will say, are you listening? Do you understand? And we keep people informed. You know, I always say that the only things that grow in the dark are mushrooms and misunderstanding. That's good.
I agree. But women keep people informed. I worked on a job once where people were kind of plated close to the vest. And when I left and I was the chief financial officer, they said, listen, we like it because you kept us informed. I even explained to them how to read the company's financial statements. They said, everything's a secret. But when you were here, we were informed.
Yeah. How does a woman in leadership not take the bait to act like a man? Because there's so much pressure to do that. So being strong in who she is and how God has made her as a woman and to lead from those strengths and not fall for, okay, I got to project myself like a man. Well, it comes with your belief system.
Now, you have to believe that. That's why it's important to be Bible-based. You have to believe that God has a role for you and that you don't have to compete for your destiny. See, I never felt like I needed to compete.
I don't need to play politics. I don't need to backstab or any of that because promotion comes from God. And I expect Him to exalt me in the workplace, not because of my efforts. And I also expect Him to reveal to me what I need to know when I need to know it. So I don't feel like this thing with inadequacy, which is a big deal for women, because they studied leadership traits and women excelled men in leadership traits in eight out of 10 categories.
The only two they didn't excel was confidence and risk-taking. Can you believe that? Yeah.
I mean, I think so. I can understand that. You had a story in the book about Carl. Tell us about Carl and what you learned from that exchange.
Well, Carl was a guy I had hired, and I've had several CFO positions, so nobody's going to know who I'm talking about here. But he always felt the need to answer my questions, even if he didn't have the answer. He would just blurt out something. And I said, this isn't working for you, and it's not working for me.
Why do you do that? And he said that his father was the type that you better have an answer. So he would just say anything. Even if it's the wrong answer. Yeah, it's the wrong answer. You got to respond.
You can't say, I don't know. You just got to say something, even if it was stupid. So I told him, being a woman who, and as I say, a trait God has given us, to nurture. Now, this is a mothering, because as I said, if you take these assets to the extreme, they become liabilities. But I nurtured him back to the place where it was okay to say, I don't know, let me get back to you. And so that was important, that I recognized that it was the fear of being wrong that was causing him to do that. Well, that's where that intuition comes from. I not only asked him, but I said, you know, why are you doing that?
And so he told me. Yeah, that idea of nurture, that would be one of those 10 assets that we didn't cover, but I would think nurturing would be in there. I could easily see how we're not, men are just not as good with nurturing.
Well, and initially in my career, trying to lead like a man, I wasn't nurturing either. So I wasn't very kind to people who didn't know the answer. It's like, listen, you have to bring that answer to the table now. That's why we're paying you. That's why we're paying you. That's right. We don't have time for your learning curve.
You bring that to the table. Carl, how long of a process was that? A while, because he would revert back to like, who is that? Carl, what's the overhead rate going to be? Oh, about 150 or whatever. Is that based on an analysis? Well, I could check. I love blurting out numbers.
150. It's like, what? It sounds like a meeting we might have. We're focused occasionally.
No, we're pretty good. But no, it's still true. Everywhere you have those kinds of things. But that's where the patience that women have. We tend, because, you know, we raise children or whatever, we tend to have a little bit more patience with people's growth pattern.
Yeah. In terms of that motivating ability, you describe in the book where motivation and manipulation. Oh, manipulation. Since we're talking about manipulation, that might be a skill set that women have over men.
You better walk lightly with that. Well, I'm just saying, everybody can manipulate, but I think women, their brains are just moving so fast. Both your hemispheres are connected, and you guys can, like, drill into something a lot further than we will. We can, and we have to be careful of that. Right. And we call it motivating, but sometimes it can be. It's the motive.
It's the why. So where's that line when it's healthy and then goes into the yellow or the red zone and becomes manipulation? Well, when you're motivating, you're trying to get people to accomplish a goal. When you're manipulating, you have some personal thing at stake.
I want to make sure that I don't come out looking bad. I want to make sure you do what I want to do. We can be controlling, but then when people push back, that's a good thing. If you have a boss that's manipulating, you need to push back. And then if you are that person, you got to be truthful and say, what is my goal here?
What's my real motive? Debra, you mentioned a story in the book, Lead Like a Woman, where you kind of fell into a job. I don't know how it came about. Maybe you could tell us, but it was aerospace budget director, which you had no experience in.
None. I thought that was the funniest part of the story. Like, how do you find these jobs? But in that context, that nurturing component came out.
You kind of touched on that a little while ago, having the idea to keep people informed. But A, how did you get the job? And then B, how did you excel at it? Well, I got the job because I had been vice president at Universal Studios and they killed my division. It was a venture capital division, so I had no work. But I went to aerospace because they were looking for a minority.
And back in the days, I think it's been cut out now, but you had affirmative action. And so, but I didn't, they needed somebody with some experience. And I had the labels. I just didn't know the industry. I was a CPA, MBA and all that stuff, but I didn't know the industry. So they hired me. They gave me a mentor, but she didn't like the idea. She resented it because they paid me more because I had the master's degree.
She was terrible. Wow. Well, but you know, this is where I learned and that you don't have to depend on your own experience or your own education. This is where I learned when things come up, that God can reveal information to you on the spot. He can empower you. And I am married to Second Corinthians 3-5, Jim. It says not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves. Our sufficiency is from God. So there were times I'd be stuck and I didn't have an answer. And the Lord himself would just like reveal what I needed to know.
No, that's so good. How do you, how do you, and you've been in a variety of roles and successful. I know you've worked with Magic Johnson on his theater development and other things. So, I mean, you've had an incredible career, a variety within your career for that person that might be listening who, you know, they're, they feel stuck in that job or they feel like they can't get out of the problem. The supervisor who's really not very effective, not very good, I could do a better job. And especially for the woman with all the dynamics of that, if the supervisor's a male, for example, and that ceiling that some women feel they hit. How do you manage that with the Lord every morning before you go to work? And what are you saying?
How are you praying? And what's the right outcome? Well, the right outcome is to say, Lord, I am depending on you. I need you to reveal to me today how to respond, how not to get an attitude, but also how to get over the fear of not moving outside of your comfort zone. You got to move outside of the comfort zone. I started a new career when I was 56. I was 56. I was settling to my job, but my husband, God spoke to me through my husband and others.
They said, you need to be writing and speaking full time. And I said, no, I need to keep getting my six-figure check so I can make sure I'm getting paid. It does feel pretty comfortable to get that check. Absolutely. But you know what? I did it. Just to make a long story short, I did it. I had written one book, and six months out, seven months out, I had made more on the stepping outside of that comfort zone than I made on my job.
Yeah. Because you got to put God to the test to do that. I know that sounds like way out there, but listen, you can't be afraid to make that move, which means you got to position yourself to do it.
Pay off the bills as much as you can. Get positions. And God is always looking for a partner. He is always looking for somebody who will just allow him to show himself strong in them.
In that way, I mean, some of the bad fruit of that environment can be resentment, bitterness, like God's not listening to me. Again, how do you attack that for that woman who feels like somebody's boot is on her neck? Then you confront it. Now, that's a word that everybody's scared of, but you say, listen, you go to the person who is problematic, and you say, how can I do better? How can I be more of an asset to you?
What areas do I need to improve in? You just ask. You don't wait until the evaluation where they just skirt over it, because most of the time they don't give women real objective evaluations, because they think it's going to hurt our feelings and we're going to cry. Well, and what's so good about that, I've supervised a lot of people. That's refreshing, actually. Yeah, to be asked, right? To be asked that question.
It takes you off the hook. You can say, whatever it is you feel like that person could do, don't be afraid of being sued if you say it. You can just say it in a way, ask God to give you the words. Here's what you need to do. Because I've done that. What can I do? I didn't get that promotion that time.
Tell me what I can do to be positioned next time. And always keep a good attitude, because the bottom line is that God knows what's happening. All the days ordained for me were already written in his book, so I'm not worried about somebody thwarting God's purpose for my life.
I want to say that again, because most women don't. Because that's what confidence is about. It means with faith. That's what confidence means, with faith.
So Isaiah 14, 27 says, when the Lord has purposed, who can thwart him? I love saying that. That gives me an attitude. Like, who?
Name somebody. Yeah, no, that's good. You know, another component you mentioned in the book is we're zipping through this. We are. Great content.
I so appreciate it. You mentioned leadership. One of the things that's, or two of the things that are critical, strength and confidence. But you hook that to resiliency. So describe resiliency and how does that help you in your strength and in your confidence? Well, resiliency is just bouncing back. No matter how many times somebody has rejected you or whatever, it's just bouncing back. That takes the power of the Holy Spirit to bounce back, because sometimes you'll feel so defeated, you take personal responsibility for the defeat, it's not always yours. But the persistence that you talked about, that just means keeping at it.
No matter what, keeping at it. And I can tell you, I've had that. I grew up in the South where I understood I had three strikes against me.
I was a woman, I was black, and I was a dark-skinned black. They said, three strikes. Like, no such thing as strikes against me.
The Lord has purposed, who can thwart him? Yeah, that's good. Go right back to it. So persistence, you just keep at it. You finish school, you do all of that, and then you put it aside and don't depend on it. Don't rest your faith on anything that you have done yourself.
Rest it only on the fact that God has a plan for you. You know, Deborah, it's interesting when you look in the workplace today, because I think some of the shoes are on the other feet now. What I mean by that is women tend to be the ones, they're the ones going on to college, they're the ones getting more graduate degrees, they're the ones that are emerging with greater confidence, and it's young men that seem to lack with resiliency. There's so many articles being written right now about just the unhealthiness that young men are in. You know, high suicide rates, high depression, etc. And that's where the fathers and male leaders are coming in.
There was a movie recently that came out called The Forge, I'm not sure if I can say that. But it's about mentoring young men. I'd like to see men and families who are succeeding, and we have to redefine what success is, but who are just succeeding as good fathers and good businessmen or whatever, to take men like that under their wing and encourage them. Because a woman can't really do that as effectively as a man can, so I would ask the man to step up to the plate. Well, and again, it's not this or that. It can be both, and that's probably the biblical solution. When you look at examples in Scripture, do you see the healthy, you know, working together as husband and wife, or male and female? Well, I think that when Priscilla and Aquila took the young man aside who had been preaching, and they taught him a better way, you know, they did it together. And it's a great example when you can see a couple model it so that we don't get this skewed view, or men are supposed to do this, and women are supposed to do that.
That's the model that I can think of. And that was a spiritual thing, but it was still leadership. They said, listen, he's a great speaker, but, you know, they took him aside and said, hey, there's an even higher way to put forth your message. You mention a trio of truths when it comes to problems. What are those three truths, and how does it teach us to handle adversity? Well, what I always say about adversity is don't run from it, because it has a purpose. It's good when you've been, quote, afflicted, that you might learn God's statutes. So my trio of truths, IRS, that trouble is inevitable, it's required, and it's seasonal. It's not going to last always.
So when you say this to a person, what percentage goes, oh, no, I can't, I'm not doing that. I'm not running into adversity. Well, I say don't run from it. Just don't run from it, and don't be deterred by it. When there's a problem, just say this is an opportunity to grow, or to learn more about God, or to just to stretch myself. COVID-19 taught me a lot, because nobody was calling people to speak.
I had to learn how to use a teleprompter and all those things, and I live way out. Nobody was coming to rescue me in terms of in the middle of the night, and I'm trying to get a video to somebody. Right, no IT people. Yeah, and I said, God, you've got to come help me, because nobody's coming. So here's the thing, you can depend on God for everything. So when I say adversity, don't say, oh, woe is me, what am I going to do? God has a solution to every problem. He's the problem solver.
Yeah, and that's so good, and that's so true for the believers. When you were managing people, seriously, I'm just trying to get a handle on this, what percentage of people didn't do well with adversity, and they did run from it? Well, most people don't like problems.
You don't have to like them, but here's the thing. That's because we limit God to our experience, our exposure, our education. So when we see a problem that we've never had to solve, we say, oh, woe is me.
We don't come out of the sense realm and focus in the faith realm and say, what is the answer? We get stuck in that sense realm, and we know that we're inadequate. We really are inadequate. Yeah, so true. So we run. We all think that.
All of us think that. One of the other things that you connect with resiliency is flexibility. I'm trying to think, and again, I'm pulling on my limited gender experiences, but I would think women are so good at being more flexible. Men, we could be pretty rigid on things.
Locked into the solution, yeah. It is true. Our brains are wired in such a way that we compartmentalize things. It makes us good at certain vocations because men can really concentrate for a long period of time.
One gendered the other, because men have been so inflexible, women have learned to be flexible. Think about it. It's the corollary. Okay, that's fair.
But that's a good thing to be, and again, everybody's not. Flexibility is not my strong suit. I have to pray to be flexible.
When I set a plan, I want it to go just like I set it. That sounded good. That was pretty convincing. So the Oak in the Reed example in the book, though, fits this flexibility issue. So what's the Oak in the Reed story that's out of the book? Oh, there's a story there about the oak being rigid, but the reed flowed in the wind, and when the storm came, the oak finally were toppled over. But the people who are flexible, the reed didn't. It was able to flow with the wind.
It sways. And we've got to learn how to do that. My solution is not always the only solution. We have to be open to input, and women tend to be a little bit more open to input from others, and so that's a trait you want to develop, to say, wait a minute. When you're frustrated because your way isn't going well or nobody's accepting it, you've got to say, wait, let me open myself up and listen.
Maybe my way isn't the best way. When we look here at the very end, obviously there are characteristics that Jesus had as a leader. He was leading 12 and indirectly thousands, right, of the early church and talking to people constantly. He demonstrated that concept of a servant's heart. I mean, we have many books written about it, business books, the servant leader. I think that comes directly from the example of Jesus. Of course, Jesus said a couple of times, if you want to lead, you must learn how to serve.
That's right. And it's a great example, but what else can we learn from what Jesus taught us about leadership? That Jesus revealed himself. When he asked his disciples, he said, who do people say I am? Now, what man goes around saying, how do people feel about me? What are they saying about me? Jesus wanted to know, how am I being perceived out there? What are they saying? Oh, he did say that a lot.
Yeah. What do they say of me? Yeah, what do they say of me? You know, I'm thinking, you're a God, who cares? But you know what? That is important to know how you are being perceived by others because their perception is their reality of you. And if it's negative, you want to fix that. Well, what's interesting, he was often asking that question to get that person's perception of what they were given. To make them think through it. Well, who do you say I am?
Who do you say I am? Yeah, so it's really interesting. Debra, right here at the end, talk to that woman who does want it all. I mean, I think one of the things I see in my own experience is women who want to be perfect. You know, they want to be a tremendous Christian believer as a woman, be the perfect wife, the perfect mom, and have a career that she's perfect in.
That's really hard to do. How does she find the grace for herself when there's so much guilt that gets involved with that? Well, you've got to acknowledge the fact that you want to be perfect. Perfect means complete in the scriptures.
That's what it really means. But this idea of perfection is really an attempt to be blameless. There's a difference between wanting to be excellent and wanting to be perfect. So that pursuit of perfectionism, that's going to drive you crazy. It's going to impact you physically.
It's going to impact you relationally and every other way. So you need to abandon that concept. But how do you do that? How do you say, I don't have to be perfect. I just want to be the best person I can be.
And talking about having it all, being the great mother and all of that, that's a good thing. But I don't want it. I want it all.
I want all that God has for me to do. And it is not God's will for me to take on all the work, do all the housework, do everything myself, just so that I can have this image of being perfect. Because who are you trying to prove? What are you trying to prove? And who are you trying to prove it to? Yeah, that's good.
So that's not good. And you need to just stop and recognize that society applauds that. So if I can come in and I can be a size five and I can be the corporate vice president and I have wonderful, well-behaved children, like applause for me, you need to abandon that. You need to be a human being.
That's a good word because it applies to women, but it also applies to men. Oh, yeah. You know, how much we're given to the company versus our family, our marriage, et cetera.
Absolutely. Where does it get you? Yeah, where does it get you? Where does it get you? You got to ask yourself that all the time. Always be evaluating your priorities.
Is this in alignment with God's will, His plan, His word? Boy, that's strong. Deborah, thanks so much for being with us.
The half hour just flew by. So thank you so much. And this has been great. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. I can't wait till we get together next time. Yeah, me too.
So much fun. Thank you so much. And let me turn to the listener. Focus on the Family is here for you. We want to provide you with the tools and answers that you need as moms, dads, and leaders to raise up the next generation. Yeah, we have so many resources to help you, like Deborah's book, Lead Like a Woman, Gain Confidence, Navigate Obstacles, Empower Others. And of course, you can order that directly from us here at the ministry. And let me encourage you to become a regular part of the work that God is doing here at Focus on the Family. We're looking for a thousand people to join our community of monthly sustainers. We like to call them friends of Focus on the Family, seems apropos. Indeed. And these are folks who are passionate about helping others and care deeply about families.
Are you one of them? Your monthly gift provides trusted resources like this daily broadcast, podcast, our counseling team, and print and online materials as well. Through those resources, Focus on the Family aims to heal families in the name of Christ and strengthen our country. So if you aren't already a friend of Focus on the Family, like Gene and I and John, you and Dina do it as well. Sign up today. And when you do, we'll send you a copy of Deborah's great book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
And if you can't commit to a monthly amount, we'll send you the book for a one-time gift as well. Yeah, either way, join the support team today and request your copy of Deborah's book. We've got details in the episode notes or call 800, the letter A, and the word family.
Again, that's 800-232-6459. Now coming up next time, we'll help you understand the struggles of at-risk children. I grew up in a single-parent home. My grandmother raised me with her 12 children. My father was murdered when I was 10. I've only seen him maybe five times prior to him dying. And my mother, even though she was around, she made it very clear she didn't want to be a mother.
She was a teenager. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face challenges together. We'll talk with you, pray with you, and help you find out which program will work best. Call us at 1-866-875-2915.
