There's not a kid today going to school, especially from the 4th or 5th grade up, who's thinking to him or herself, I hope today isn't my day.
My day to be singled out, laughed at, knocked out, whatever. Popular author, radio and TV guest and psychologist, Dr. Kevin Lehman is back with us today on Focus on the Family, sharing trusted advice to help your child navigate the hurts and disappointments and fears that they experience. I'm John Fuller and we have a studio audience with us here and your host is Focus President and author Jim Daly. Hey studio audience, say hi. Hello. It's good to have you here. Dr. Kevin Lehman, great to have you back for the discussion. Thank you. Man, we hit it last time.
We talked about the fears kids have. If you missed the discussion last time, get the CD or the download. Get the app.
It's free for your smartphone. That works too. Today, I want to dive in a little deeper into the mind of a child who's hurting. I think this is something that's an epidemic within schools, this idea of depression and loneliness and where kids are at today.
Dr. Lehman has a wonderful book titled When Your Kid is Hurting and I can't wait to hear more from Dr. Lehman. Welcome back. Hey, it is so good to be here. As I said many times, I'm among friends and there's nothing like being around friends and trying to help families negotiate the tough waters of life. Let me say, part of you, you came up pretty tough.
You talk about your testimony. You didn't have a great GPA. You were the guy that was never going to amount to anything. That was kind of you. That was kind of me.
But you are a standard of hope for so many parents that have difficult children. They're going, hey, if Dr. Lehman can do it, so can you. Well, there's truth in that.
We started these schools and I wish my high school teachers in particular were alive to see Lehman Academy of Excellence. That must be a distant relative. That certainly couldn't have been Kevin.
They may be wiping their brow as they say that. Wow, that Kevin Lehman actually got somewhere. My guidance counselor told me he couldn't get me in reform school. That's a bad starting position, but he did it. And God's grace and his wisdom. God's grace. I had a mother who prayed for me every day. And we talk about hurting kids. And I guess I'm saying, I guess everybody knows you pray for your kids, but you have to cover your kids in prayer and your kids are different. Okay.
I have five of them. They all go different paths. King Solomon says, and he will direct your paths. Notice it's plural. And so, prayer is just part of what it takes to be a good parent today. And there's parents who say, hey, Lehman, you have no idea. I'm wearing out the carpet on my knees, but I don't see progress with my kid.
Well, hopefully you'll live to see it. You plant the seeds and you let God's Holy Spirit work in kids' lives and we get some surprises along life's way. Yeah, it's so true. I think one of the great things about your story is you experienced some very low points and you felt rejection and you felt pain and hurt. Kids can go one of two ways. They get hard about that and then they start acting out or that sensitivity becomes core to who they are and they have great empathy. You seem to be that adult who grew up in that way.
Is that a fair kind of view of it? I mean, what drew you into psychology as a Christian, as a... Well, I had a sister who was perfect, a brother who was near perfect, and I figured those were the stars. I couldn't get in college, got thrown out of Cub Scouts. My mother took me to Joy Club. I hated that sucker. You hated Joy Club. That says it all right there.
Jesus and others and you. I remember that, but I hated it. Final graphs. Can you imagine final graphs? How exciting that was? Oh my goodness. But it's interesting because all the things my mother poured into me as a kid, I remember them as adults today.
Isn't that interesting? So there's encouragement for parents. Well, you loved your mom. And you do the right thing. And yeah, so a lot of people wrote me off, but see, it was a teacher who pulled me aside and said, Kevin, do you think you could ever use those skills you have for something positive in life?
Well, I'm not making this up. That was the first time, the only time a teacher ever said to me that I had skills. And she said, I've seen you take over a class.
Do you think you could ever use those things for something positive? And when I'm speaking in front of 10,000 people, I think of old Eleanor Wilson, God rest her soul, who said, Kevin, do you think you could use those skills? Look at the power of that comment. You remember it like it was yesterday. Oh, I do. Brings tears in my eyes. That's what I call vitamin E encouragement. Parent, do you realize what you have in your back pocket?
Yeah. Which is the words you choose to use with your kids. Look at your kids.
They're all different. What about that parent? And I want to speak to that parent that is trying to serve the Lord sees the world in black and white ways, righteousness and sin. And I get all that. And certainly as a believer, I understand that.
But speak to that parent that is relentless with the rules and doesn't understand the heart of a child that they're in a tough spot that encouragement goes a long way for that little boy or that little girl. Well, I stole it from Josh McDowell, my friend. He said rules without relationship lead to rebellion. And by the way, I don't know who Josh stole it from, but we repeat that often here.
It is so good because it's just not rules. The Pharisees had the rules, but didn't have the relationship. You know, King Solomon uses the word heart three times in Proverbs three, one through six. And it's easy to have it in your head. I tell businessmen, CEOs, when I go and speak to YPO groups, you see yourself as a visionary, Mr. CEO.
Well, let me tell you something. You can be successful with a vision that comes from your head, but you really want to be successful. Have it come from your heart and your head.
Now you'll be successful. So you have to speak to the heart and kids today. I think we cripple kids by doing far too many things for them, by snow plowing their roads of life for them, by not letting them face the realities of the peer group.
We don't give them the psychological muscles they need that when they leave our home, they can face the realities. We make excuses for kids at every turn. It's crazy what we do. You want to talk about depression. You realize how we drug kids today early and often. It's crazy.
I'm a guy that I don't like to take any kind of medication. I avoid it as best I can. But we need to recognize in some children, there are issues going on.
I want to make sure we're fair in that regard. Right. No, here's the question.
Are they depressing or are they depressed? In other words, what I'm saying is there are kids who will work you. That's true.
They'll play like a violin. And my sweet mother, you've heard how important she was to me. She was a registered nurse.
And I had a version for school. And I found ways of, I would just give the expression like I didn't feel good at breakfast. What's wrong, honey?
Anything wrong? No, no, mom. I just got a little pain. She'd always ask me, is it high or low in my stomach? To this day, I don't know why she asked me that question. And sometimes I'd say high.
Some days I'd say low just to change it up. Honey, are you not feeling well? No, I really don't feel that well. Well, maybe you ought to stay home from school today. Now, yeah, mom, now you're talking. You ought to stay home from school today. As soon as she went out the door, because I had a working mom. She was the director of a convalescent home for children. I went fishing.
I took my fishing pole and I was gone across the street and down to the creek. But I'm just telling you, kids are capable of working their parents. That kind of shows the flip side of that, which is kids, there are kids who act out and sometimes it's not the parent's fault. Right. So give, speak to that parent who is throwing their hands up saying, wait a minute. Okay.
You got a kid who has some real physiological, biological built in problems. You can read every Kevin Lehman book you can find. Okay. And you can employ all those principles.
And I'm here to tell you, and I'm the author of those 61 books, you'll find some success. And the best thing I'll tell people is this, don't let the diagnosis, whatever it is, be the excuse for anti-social behavior, for disrespect, for lie telling, anything. So with that in mind, you come around the kids and you try to give that son or daughter the best training that's available today.
We have great training. Name a malady. There's people out there, there's support groups, there's professionals who work with people to bring them along because the fear of a parent is how is this kid going to make it on their own? Yeah. And then you've got parents who are talking about putting their kids in group homes.
I mean, if you want a list of maladies, just go to a Merck manual and have at it. They're all there. You can read about them, but I'm just saying as a parent, your heart goes out to this kid. You want to help this kid become everything that kid can be.
Yeah. And do you do it by making excuses for them, or do you do it by holding them accountable? And so it's like I say, I said yesterday that writing this book was a challenge. I think it's the toughest book I ever took on because it's hard to get your arms around everything because it has so much to do with the words you choose to use with your kids. And parents, you need to understand this. Kids do not gravitate to people where they feel uncomfortable. And I would ask you, how comfortable is your home? Is it that safety net? Is it that safe harbor for your kid? Kevin, sometimes though, I'm hearing you say it needs to be comfortable. It needs to be a place of encouragement.
And other times I'm hearing you say your kid shouldn't be comfortable. So balance those out for me. It's the balance beam. It's the vitamin E encouragement.
Okay. Thank you, St. Paul. And then it's vitamin N, which is no, that we have limits and responsibilities. And that is what I call the balance beam of life. And it's not a specific dot on a continuum. This is just the art of parenting. It is.
There is an art form to it. You know, kids hate questions. If you want your kid to talk to you, you have to change the way you talk to a kid. Say to your kid, honey, could I ask you your opinion about something? Your kid will talk your ear off.
These kids are not going to engage if they don't feel comfortable with you. So true. Kevin, you mentioned seven realities kids need to face. Let's hit those just quickly. We'll tap into a couple, but you've already touched on them. The first is bad things happen even to good people.
They do. And it's unfortunate that your kid comes home and tells you about these kids who are cheating in class and they all got good grades and he got a C plus. And now you've got a discussion on your hands about honesty, the right thing to do. How do you handle that situation? Do you want to be the narc in fifth grade? What's the consequences for that one? Meaning the tattle tale. I mean, there's all kinds of opportunities for us to be teachers. And what I'm telling parents across the world, they'll never be a better teacher than you.
That's it. And they're watching you. And they watch how you talk to other people. They watch how you talk to each other.
And they certainly know how you talk to them. It might be good. We'll post that with your permission.
I mean, I'll just read them quickly. The bad things happen even to good people. Life isn't always fair. Don't encourage a victim mentality. Third, you have to live with the hand you're dealt with. These are good life lessons to make your children resilient. Four, you aren't the only person on the planet.
There's a good one. Five, facing hardships together is better than trying to go solo. Two are stronger than one.
And six, B doesn't happen before. You touched on that one. Seven, your attitude does make all the difference in whether you win or lose in life. Let's touch on that one.
Then we'll move on. What are you driving at there about attitude, win or lose? You're kind of hitting that with the cheating aspect.
But are you really saying it's okay to lose? Yes, the Christian home ought to be a place where kids learn to fail. Can you name a better place for a kid to learn to fail than in the Christian home?
Why is it sometimes the least likely place that kids can fail? Because we're two-year-old oriented. We know exactly what the kids ought to be like before they know it. We project our unfulfilled dreams and wishes on our children, particularly our first born child. They're the lab rat of the family. But let me just contrast for you the enabler parent.
Now listen to this. Here's a small list. Over protects the child, speaks for the child, reacts to emotional outbursts, tries to fix things, makes excuses for the child behavior, does what the child should do for themselves. Well there's the enabler. Now the flip side, the helpful, is authentic, honest about the truth, listens and doesn't judge, is compassionate, affirming, supportive, responds rather than reacts.
There's a huge one. Give that for illustration purposes because some parents may not even know which category they fall into. Well, the responder reacting is just powerful. A kid says, he announces, kids announce things, 15-year-old says, I'm going to a rock concert in Denver, you know. And you can't stop me.
And you live in Colorado Springs and you're thinking about driving up I-25 in that traffic with another 16-year-old kid. Your visceral comment is what? Hey, we're not sending you to some rock concert, listening to some wackos up there in Denver and using our heart or mind. You say it one form or another, but you're giving them a big vitamin N. You're giving them a no. It seems reasonable to me. What's the problem? Heads are shaking across Canada and the U.S. as you just said those words.
Hey, that daily guy, hey Lehman, listen to daily, he's got the right attitude. Well let me just give you a little flip on that. Wow.
You want to drive all the way to Denver and spend how much money? Wow, that group must be really important to you. Hey, can you download some of their music? I'd love to hear it. Now am I telling you to let the 16-year-old kid go on I-25 for 62 miles to hear this? No, that's not what I'm telling you. I'm saying hear your kid out, listen to them.
You need to have relationships with your kids. And just shutting kids down, hey, I'm the boss. And this goes back to the difference between being authoritarian and being an authority.
And here's the kicker, okay? Is God the one we praise and worship daily? Is God an authoritarian?
There's our model for parenthood. Does he grab Jim Daly by the scruff of the neck and rub his little nose in it and remind him of the sins in his life? No, he's the authority.
He's the supreme authority. His scripture says every knee shall bow. But most parents, Christian parents, they love rules.
I mean, they're the Pharisees of the modern day. And I'm just saying there's this wonderful balance beam. And if you underscore the fact that your child is not the center of the universe, okay, if he is, how does he ever have a faith in Jesus Christ if he sees himself there? I agree.
But let me play that out for you a little bit further because I want the parents to have the tools and be equipped to manage this. So let's take your rock. Play it out. Let's play the rock concert thing a little further. So you listen to it and you're going, internally, in your mind, you're going, this is horrific. This is not good. And your kid is, you're asking questions now, why would you like this kind of music? Tell me again why this is important to you. You're getting to the point where the teenager still wants to go. Okay, but I'm not asking him a question.
I'm going to take him back to opinion. Honey, I want your opinion on something. Just give me some insight into why that band is so attractive. And they say, oh, I like the beat. I really don't listen to the words. I just like the rhythm. And my friends and I have listened to it for a long time. So we're really planning to go. I hope that's okay, Dad.
Yeah. And that was true of me in a song that was released way back in 1963 called Oh, What a Night. And I never listened to the words. It was about, it was about a night that a young man had with a prostitute.
It had great, it was a great beat. We danced to it as kids. Right out of Proverbs, I guess. You know, the point is, if they continue to want to do that, what do you do as the parent? That's the question. But this is what you have to understand. As a parent, and surely you understand, we do have authority. And we have authority over you.
And you're not always going to like decisions that we make. But I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to talk to your mom about it. She ought to be in this conversation.
I'd like to play that for her. Could I get back to you tomorrow? And I'll give you a definitive answer. Come tomorrow. Honey, we've thought about it.
We talked about it. And you're not going to like the answer. But the answer is no.
Now, you know what? There's some kids who are relieved that you just said no. And that's what you have to understand as a parent. Because in the peer group, that kid can go back and say, my mom won't let me go. My dad won't let me go. Don't be afraid to be the fall guy. Give your child an excuse.
But you are the captain or co-captain of the ship. And you're going to have to make tough calls. And the really great calls you make for your kids aren't easy ones.
They're tough ones. Right. And it's okay to do that. It's okay.
Just do it respectfully. It's called discipline. Right. But you hear them out.
Tremendous difference. Tell me more about it. You're a married man. Have you ever said stupid things to Gene? Never once.
Never once. You sinner. Wait a second. I have to pray. Lord, forgive me.
But you know what? I always tell women, when your husband says something really stupid, don't, you know, he's a man. Don't jump all over him. Just say, wow. Wow. Look at him.
But there's a reason grace is from God. And that's for sure. Listen, Kevin.
Fascinating. I do want to, with all the things you're doing in education with your charter schools, and here in Colorado Springs, we've had a number of teen suicides, et cetera. And it seems to be a pandemic when it comes to the loneliness, all the things that we've talked about the last two days.
Speak to that issue and how we as parents need to dial in with our kids' hearts. Just for fun, let me ask you both a question. What do you think my answer will be?
This is sort of fun. I'm flipping the table, sir. What do you think my answer will be for the reason for so many suicides? Why?
What do you suppose Kevin Lehman's going to tell you? I'm going to give you one word so that'll be a clue. Well, okay. One word.
John, you go first. I'll guess broadly and say family. I'd say maybe boundary. Okay. The word I'm thinking of, and you're not far off at all, is authority.
Right. I think authority anchors the home. Not authoritarianism.
Not you're going to do what I tell you to do as long as you live under this roof. But knowing there are truths. And not permissiveness, because permissiveness plants the seeds of rebellion in a kid's life.
Authoritarianism does the same thing. And again, I take you back to this. Here's a statement.
Put this out. There's only one way to rear a kid. Do you know how many people you've had in the focus on the family studios talk about parenthood over the years? Quite a few.
Quite a few. And here's a guy that comes along and says, there's only one way to rear a kid. And I'll defend that. Because the only way to rear a kid is by being in authority over your children and understanding what true authority is. It's not running over your kids. It's listening to your kids. And listening to four or five different kids or three different kids who are different personalities.
And showing respect to them. But being the final, you are the final one. You are the one that God is going to hold accountable for the decisions you make as a parent. And you are the best teacher to your child. So I think if we could get to a point where we understand that kids are important, what they think is important, we need to be better listeners, we need to be compassionate. And all those wonderful habits of the heart need to be expressed to children. But there still has to be that final authority. And I appreciate the directness.
I think that's true. And you can, you know, take a look at your own parenting style and understand where that falls short. And in fact, we have a parenting assessment that might be helpful to you can come online and take that. And it'll show you where you're doing some things right and where you may need a little more help. So I'd encourage you to do it.
It's free. Kevin, you do mention eight ways to help your child. He touched again on a couple of those.
I love your lists. You know, I just think they're helpful. They're grabbers. But you say don't panic respond. Don't react. Listen, listen, listen, and listen more. Don't judge. That's probably the most difficult you've touched on that provide comfort for your child.
I think that's the psychological blanket as you describe it. What you say matters. Think before you say anything. That can be so tough. Did you ever have an argument with your children? Come on.
Oh, yeah. A couple of them. I've got one daughter who I still ask myself at night. Are you sure she grew up in your home? She has an interesting way of looking at some things in life. And very different from what Sandy, Mrs. Uppington and I see life. And yet she's young. So I think she'll figure it out before long.
It's going to give you an idea of what your mom and dad felt with you after Oh, yeah, where you were. Oh, gosh, yes. But you know, when the ACLU card came to the home with her name on it, I did have a problem with that. I have to tell you that I'm politically not quite there. And I would admit something to you on focus on the family since it was addressed to our home.
I took some liberties and I made two pieces out of it. But, you know, I'm just telling you, you have to love your kids, right? As they are.
And they all come in different sizes, different packages. And that love that that graceful love permeates an awful lot of things. Well, let me ask you in this regard, because you again, these are your eight ways to help your child.
Hopefully, we can post that list. But staying calm, communicate that you're going to get through this together. And in one piece, I guess the art of parenting that you've been describing in my mind is occasionally you're going to blow it as a parent, probably, there may be some really good parents that rarely blow it. But the reality is you are daily, I think, yeah, you're going to have an outburst, maybe you're going to lose control, you're going to do the things that are different from what you're going to panic, you're going to react and not respond well. So speak to the parent that is aiming to do well.
Are you hoping for 80-20? What's that formula look like? Well, let me use this. When you understand how crummy and imperfect you are, as a parent, as a person, then and only then can you do what God would have you do on this earth.
I think that covers about everything. St. Paul called himself wretched, Jim. If he's wretched, would you tell me what John Fuller is?
John is terrific. Not publicly, please. Do you see what I'm saying? And when we realize that we all fall short, so you're the first to say, hey, honey, you know, I was thinking about what I said to you. I said it in anger yesterday. I need to ask for your forgiveness. You will never look bigger in your kid's eyes when you say, honey, would you forgive me? I was what?
I was wrong. And that's what opens the door of communication. So that empathy, getting behind your kid's eyes is how I like to say it. Well, we have hit it. I mean, we've talked about so much today, Kevin, and it's been terrific. We've talked about depression and the difficulties that kids face today and then what parents can do to strengthen them, but not to hurt them by overprotecting them. And that's come through loud and clear. This has been so good. There's so much more in your book we're not able to cover in the two programs when your kid is hurting. And I think you've done, again, an excellent job. This is book number 61.
One quick thing. Perfectionism is slow suicide. For those of you who struggle with micromanaging your kids and while that's the way to plant the seeds of depression in your kid's life, I'm so glad you mentioned that again because it sparked that thought. The imperfect Jim Daley, the imperfect Kevin Lehman, the imperfect John Fuller are the ones who can be difference makers in our kids' lives. Well, that's what you want your children to grow up to be is difference makers for Christ.
That's why we're here today. If this has touched your heart and you want more, send us a note. We will get Kevin's book and get it into your hands.
It would be great if you could provide a monthly pledge to focus on the family to help us carry out the work here. If that's not possible, a one-time gift, in either case, we'll send you a copy of Kevin's book as our way of saying thank you. But Kevin, again, it has been so good to have you with us. Thank you.
My pleasure. I always love being here at Focus on the Family. We love having you here. And as Jim said, we're here to offer parenting advice and encouragement as we share practical Christian principles to help younger generations. And so I hope you'll make us known to your friends and family members who are perhaps early on in the parenting process. And then if you would, please help us continue to create radio programs like this one and answer tough parenting questions by phone or through email and to reach out and offer caring Christian counseling services. All of this is made possible when you donate to Focus on the Family. So please contribute generously today and know that you're helping families around the world. Donate and connect with us when you call 800-232-6459 where you'll find details in the show notes. And when you're there, be sure to take a few minutes and fill out that seven traits of effective parenting assessment as well. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you thrive in Christ. in Christ.
