In those early years, when I came to know the Lord, he and his family were so against it that they actually advised him to divorce me. Joy spent many lonely years trying to trust God and love her husband well. Thankfully, she found the support and encouragement she needed. I think that God just really used Focus on the Family and your guys' ministry to grow me and prepare me and guide my heart to live out in front of my husband what it means to follow Christ. And the best news of all is that Joy's husband also became a follower of Jesus. I'm Jim Daly. When we work together, we can strengthen more marriages like Joy's and give families hope.
Please call 800 the letter A in the word family or donate at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash hope and your gift will be doubled. I'm J. Warner Wallace, and he's our special guest for this best of edition of Focus on the Family. He's a famous homicide detective who has some really penetrating questions about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Your host is Focus President and author, Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller. We had a great conversation with Jim, J. Warner Wallace, who had some fascinating perspectives about Christianity and why beliefs matter. As he shared last time, Jim was a sarcastic skeptic who had no interest in the Bible or God or faith. I love talking to people like that who did come to faith because the foundation is so rock bottom hard, you know? He denied it and then they were convinced.
Always fascinating people to talk to and if you missed it last time, get the download or come to the website and make sure you hear it because I thought it was full of interesting insights. He also described a unique investigative methodology as a homicide detective really concentrating on cold cases where there was no body. He didn't think of the difficulty in prosecuting that kind of crime and he's applied those concepts that he learned in that field to the existence of Christ, something he called fuse and fallout, which are the events that lead up to the catastrophic bomb, the ordeal that occurs, and then all the fallout that is around it. Again, very interesting concept when you look at a guy from the first century and say, we're still talking about him today.
Very big fallout, right? That we still talk about Jesus and his meaning to history. Jim applies that methodology to Jesus's life and man, I would just say get a copy. And I totally agree. We do have the book Person of Interest at our website.
Check the program notes for details or give us a call. Eight hundred, the letter A and the word family. And Jim, here's how you began part two of this best of 2022 conversation with Jay Warner Wallace on today's episode of Focus on the Family. Jim, welcome back. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
It was so good. I just love this area because there's so many good thoughts that you can give to a nonbeliever to just make them think. That was what I expressed last time. You know, when I was in college and I came to this conclusion, I better read the word of God. I mean, reading these business books, I'm preparing myself vocationally. But this is the most important book to read.
Yeah. And I constantly will encounter people. And this is the skeptic in me, right? So I didn't have any Christians in my life growing up that if you asked, I still see this. If you ask people, why are you a Christian? The most popular answer I get is I was raised in the church. Somebody, my parents were believers. Somebody raised me.
That is the number one answer you'll get. The second most popular answer is, well, I've had an experience that demonstrated for me that Christianity was true. A prayer was answered. I had a certain experience after reading scripture. Yet we believe as Christians that those other experiences do not actually point to the truth. So what I want to say is that we have a worldview that's grounded in an historical event.
It's not grounded in the wisdom teaching of a prophet or the wisdom statements of an ancient sage. Of course, Jesus makes these statements, but it's grounded in the resurrection. If that didn't occur, none of this is true.
Right. And that means we can test this in a way that other religious worldviews cannot test their claims. This is grounded in history. We ought to be able to say, yes, I was raised in the church, perhaps, or I've had an experience that demonstrates it.
But I was able to test that experience against what I can examine and know is true evidentially because we're in the one place where we could do that. And by the way, I've got grown kids, and one of my sons will tell you that there was a season in which he was kind of wandering. But because he knew and had been raised this way that he knew it was evidentially true, there's only so far you're going to go.
Correct. It's kind of that rubber band theology, right? If you go too far with the rubber band and let go, it snaps, it hurts a little bit.
If you go even further, it hurts even more. So if you can help your kids not stray too far because they know it's true and you can only do so much with what's true, well, that's where I think we can make a difference for our kids. Well, I love that very point. It's evidence-based. It's history.
There's records both in the Scripture, outside of the Scripture, who Jesus was. That's right. And that kind of pulls us back. We have new viewers, new listeners today, Jim, so I want to recap a little bit on this idea of fuse and fallout. It's such a powerful concept, and for most of us who do not work as detectives, it's helpful to hear how you apply what you learned in your vocation as a homicide detective to the truth claims of Christ. So give us that refresher on fuse and fallout.
Sure. If we've got a case where we've got no evidence in the crime scene, we have to make the case a different way. And I typically will tell jurors that we've got every case occurs in a timeline. There's a time before the crime and a time after the crime. And on the day of the crime, if it was a murder instead of she just ran off, let's say, or she just vanished and she's out there somewhere living her life, well, then that was an explosive day. And that bomb was preceded by a fuse of tension that was rising until something happens bad.
And then after that bomb explodes, you've got fallout and shrapnel all over the blast radius. Well, look, if you didn't have any information from the New Testament, if every New Testament, imagine this thought experiment where every New Testament had been successfully destroyed by some evil future regime. So I don't have a single manuscript or a single Bible.
They're all been destroyed. It turns out from just the fuse and fallout of history, you can reconstruct in its entirety the story of Jesus. You could be saved with the information you would just get from the fuse and fallout so that even if every New Testament had been destroyed, this is the kind of impact that Jesus has. There's a reason why we call this the first century, even though it's not the first century. OK, there was a bunch of centuries before the first century. We keep on calling it the first century because something explosive happened. And what the explosive thing is, if I didn't know anything from scripture, I could reconstruct what that was just from the fuse and fallout of history.
So in that fallout section, because we covered a lot of the fuse last time. So in the fallout of the investigation, where can we see how Jesus transformed our world in those remarkable ways? What's the evidence? So I'm looking at two things. Number one is that does he have outsized impact, impact that makes sense only if he is who he said he was? In other words, he's either a fiction or is a regular old sage in the first century or he is the God of the universe stepping back into his creation. So the question is, am I going to see the kind of impact that makes sense of number three? The only only can be explained if he is God stepping into his creation.
So that's what I wanted to know. So impact was number one. But number two is, is his impact so dramatic and so unique that his story can be reconstructed from the impact? And I'm looking at those areas that were important to me as an atheist. Those are literature, art, music, education and science. Those are the things unbelievable that I thought were the most important as an atheist. Now, there's a sixth category, which is world religions. Every other theistic worldview, it turns out Jesus has had so much impact on literature, art, music, education, science and world religions, that his story can be reconstructed from those aspects of our culture, even if every New Testament was destroyed.
And that makes no sense at all unless, of course, he is who he said he was. Yeah. What about the skeptic that might say those were all manipulated things from an emerging European perspective?
That's a great question. That this was all forced on humanity by these people that were trying to shape and manipulate people. Yeah. I was that skeptic. That would have been my claim. So, for example, one of these claims is made about the oversized impact of Christians, the Christian worldview in the sciences.
People don't really understand that. But it turns out that the scientific revolution was dominantly Christian and it's happening in Europe under Christendom. Let me just add, because I'd like your response to this, that the basis there was they believed in God and therefore they could know the universe that God has created. That was kind of their promise. Well, yeah.
I think there's seven igniters there. That's kind of another story. But, yeah, part of it was that, number one, they believed in a singular, orderly, rational God that is distinct from his creation. If you're in a pantheon of disorderly, debaucherous gods that are constantly stealing your spouse and doing all kinds of drunken debauchery, why would you expect that the created order would be reasonable and rational? But we believe in an orderly, rational God that's not actually in creation as part of it, but is distinct from the creation he creates. The point is, on planet Earth, Europe is a small part of it. There were many more people who weren't living in Europe than were. On planet Earth, there were many more people who were not Christians than were. Why don't the sciences catalyze and take off in Asia or in North Africa or in India or other places where cultures had impact? It happens under Christendom in Europe because the Christian worldview acts as a catalyst for what was originally called natural philosophy and then became called science.
And this is what you see. As a matter of fact, I traced all of this. If you look at the scientists who founded their disciplines, these are called the science fathers, the father of modern astronomy, the father of quantum mechanics, whatever it may be. More fathers of scientific disciplines are Christ followers than all other groups combined. As a matter of fact, if you just look at the science fathers who also wrote about Jesus, the church fathers wrote about Jesus, you could reconstruct the story of Jesus from just the church fathers. But it turns out you can reconstruct more of the story of Jesus from the science fathers than you can from the church fathers. And I think people just don't realize that it's not just that he had huge impact, it's that his story can be reconstructed from the history of science. Yeah.
I mean, again, the book is chock full of these observations, which is why people need to get a copy. Let me ask you this. You mentioned your father was a policeman and you went into the arts and into architecture. How did those disciplines help you as you kind of swerved back into follow up behind your dad as a detective?
Well, I can tell you the first several years working in law enforcement. And when I was in the arts, Susie and I were together probably about 10 years. And I remember working in a firm in Santa Monica and just telling Susie, you know, I don't see us here. I don't see any other couples who are having families that I had very conservative views about marriage and family even before I was a Christian.
And I just didn't see anyone like us there. So my dad, you know, this is a noble profession. It's a calling. And before I even knew what a calling was, so I followed him into law enforcement. I was 27. And I can tell you that for a long time, I struggled. I felt like it needed a creative outlet. I had no creative outlet. You know, I started a police band of officers.
We played music for a while. And then eventually, you know, because I was involved in architecture, I was constantly getting asked to draw the murder scenes before I was even assigned to. Interesting. So eventually, when I got to doing jury trials, I started to help the D.A. visualize this for jurors, which is why this fuse and fallout. That's a visual model we'll put on the screen for jurors to see how this works. That is always colored the way I look at these investigations. So here I wanted to look at the arts because it turns out that from the arts alone, every episode of the gospels has been painted by an ancient or sculpted or etched or drawn by an ancient so that the story of Jesus could be completely reconstructed from just the most ancient forms of art.
Yeah. So you'd have to destroy more than the New Testament to get rid of the story of Jesus. You'd have to destroy many, many buildings and surfaces in which that image has been imaged. Jesus is the most imaged character in all historical figures. And the reason why that is so if you look at him, he changes based on culture. If you're Chinese, you're drawing Jesus as Chinese.
Probably you're probably using a artistic language that is local to your your nation, to your region. So if you look at, say, Buddha, as he's imaged in China compared to India, compared to South America, he's imaged pretty much the same. But if you look at Jesus and how he's imaged in those three locations, he looks radically different because he looks like the people group who sees him as their personal savior.
Fascinating. So that's why I think he inspires so many artists. That fallout effect, too, and you mentioned this and you're touching on it, all the arts, but also architecture.
Absolutely. Can you touch on that with the churches and what has been built? Well, you knew I was going to have to do that given I had an architectural background. Talk about that. I mean, again, that fallout perspective. If Jesus never existed or he was a myth, man, you'd have to the ripple effect that you mentioned at the top of the show. Well, you think about this. The arts needed a studio in which to develop, and many Christians were artistically inspired.
But if you think about how we first met in the Adobe or not Adobe, but mud kind of constructed small residential homes in the Middle East. Think about that. That was a dark cool. It was cooler because, you know, it was a hot environment, but they were dark, small environments. We had a desire as a group to reflect the nature of Jesus, who's not described as the dark. He's described as the light. We also had a desire to think about our salvation and the heavenly aspirations we have as a people group. And it turns out those two aspirations to reflect the light of Jesus and the heavenly aspirations of the gospel impacted the way we started to change our environments. So, for example, dome architecture gets to be so dominant in Christian churches because we want to look up and see the awesome heavens that have inspired us from the very beginning. And if you look at, say, for example, St. Peter's and Michelangelo's great dome there, you'll see that the engineering's feet to create some of these spaces is pretty remarkable. But then we also needed to kind of make those walls lighter to allow light in. So the kind of Gothic movement in which the structure of churches is forced outward to allow for glass walls to come on the inside membrane, well, that ends up creating spaces that are ridiculously beautiful.
But what is the effort here? What's driving it is not just, hey, we want cool buildings. What's driving it is that we want to reflect the space that reflects the light, Jesus as the light and our heavenly aspirations. It's about the savior and salvation that drives the shaping of these spaces, and that drives an entire movement in architecture.
And it continues to do that. But again, what is interesting of all the historical figures, who else has inspired more movements in the arts, literature, music? Education and science than Jesus. If you think there's somebody else out there who's not only had the impact of inspiration, but also whose story can be reconstructed from this inspiration, tell me who that is. Jim, just to further that discussion on music, let's make sure we catch that, because music is really interesting to me. Of course, Bach talked about the beauty, the orderliness of it, how it reflects God. I've heard others talk about its distinct attribute of human beings, that this is the creative source. This is what gives evidence that we're made in the image of God, that we're able to create music and enjoy music.
It's a really interesting concept. Speak to Jesus' impact on music a lot deeper. Yeah, and think about that. That's a good point, because we sing about the things we care about most deeply. We sing about what we worship. And it moves people.
It does. And it turns out from the very beginning, the Christian worldview has been a singing worldview. I mean, Jesus sings a hymn at the Last Supper, right?
That hymn is often thought to be one of the psalms of David. We've been singing the psalms of David for thousands of years, okay? As a matter of fact, if all you had was the music sung in hymn form of the first 300 years of the Common Era, you could reconstruct the entire story of Jesus from just the songs we sing about him. You have to destroy more than the New Testament, but also the history of early music in the Common Era. Now, what's interesting about that is that we think about where else in the world is there a worldview that puts singers on a stage every week singing in front of a live audience? That's called the church.
And we do this all the time. And so we have advanced the cause of music. So think about we have the words of the hymns and the words of the psalms, but wouldn't you like to know what the chords they were playing were?
Wouldn't you like to hear what the melody was? Well, it turns out the reason why you can hear a melody today is because a Christian invented musical notation. There was no musical notation, harmonies.
We invented these things, major scales, minor scales. Most of the instruments you're playing today were created for the purpose of advancing music in the church. And so we contributed not just to some great music, but also to the history of music making in a way that is really unparalleled. And this is because Christians wanted to sing. As a matter of fact, I did a search of all of the pop music. We have an entire Christian music industry, of course.
But aside from the Christian music industry, there's the pop industry, the secular music industry. So I did a search of all the Rolling Stone database, the IMDB, the Billboard magazine. Like who were the top 100 artists in the last 150 years? Well, it turns out there's lists of these things. So I just took the entire list.
I put them together. It's about 160 artists. I would say 150, 160 artists. And I wrote about this in the book.
Well, I looked at their personal catalog. All but two of these secular artists have sung about Jesus of Nazareth. All but two. Now, the thing about that, that this cannot be said of any other person who claimed deity or any other religious leader or any other historical figure. No one has sung about anyone as much as they've sung about Jesus in the oddest, strangest places. Frank Zappa's got a song, I think, called Jesus Thinks You're a Jerk. I think it's kind of a funny name. It's not a positive song. It's a negative song. I mean, but the point is that it's a reference.
Yeah. He's going to either infuriate you, inspire you, move you in some way, positively or negatively. You cannot get away from the influence of Jesus on music. And so it's not just that. So I would say this, whatever you're listening to, if it's pop music, if it's country music, if it's hip hop, whatever it is, it's built on certain structural forms that are utterly dependent on Christians to invent them over the years. So that today you have those structural forms in place so you can listen to the kind of music you like. Well, that's because Christians probably invented it.
Yeah. Jim, when we look at all the great people in human history, kings, queens, conquerors, explorers, inventors, philosophers, you know, and everybody else. What is your conclusion about their impact on the world compared to the impact that Jesus had?
Well, that's what's so remarkable about Jesus of Nazareth. It's really hard to explain because, you know, we're calling this the first century. And why are we calling it the first century? Well, I just challenge you to look at every significant figure in history who lived in the first century and go from as far east as you can to as far west. It's hard to go beyond a couple.
Yeah. Honestly, I made a list. I put them in the book because I think most of you will look at it and go, I don't know any of these people because they had no impact on history. The way that this guy, this sage from this small part of the Roman Empire, this guy who really had, think about it. Three years. He lives in a small, he's born in a nowhere town, raised in another nowhere town, only moves about 200 miles from start to finish. He only has three years to accomplish his mission. The people who are religious reject the people who are powerful are hunting him.
People who say they love him end up denying or betraying him in some way. He's got no real established family of merit, no education you can think of that would really cause this. No kids to extend his legacy.
No wife. No, doesn't write a book. Never leads a nation. Never rules an army. This is the guy who then eventually is falsely accused, brutally mocked, humiliated, executed, and hit to borrow a grave to bury him. Okay, this is the guy? It's not the story you would write of a great conqueror, great king.
This is so upside down in terms of what your expectations would be for someone like this. That if you take all of the leaders, and it just gets beyond the first century, look at every historic, powerful leader in history. Ask yourself, who has impacted literature, art, music, education, science, and world religion so deeply that his story can be reconstructed from those aspects of human culture? I'll wait, because you're not going to find anyone.
It's Jesus of Nazareth. That to me is remarkably unexpected, but that's what would be true if he is who he said he was. Yeah, and Jim, I mean, we're coming in, maybe only a couple of questions left, and one I really wanted to cover, especially for the person who's watching or listening that may be where you were at when you were 35. Hard charging, criminal, you know, investigator, all that. What was the tipping point? I mean, what opened your eyes to spiritual things versus the facts and nothing but the facts?
I always get asked that question, but see, here's what I do. In my cases, I'm working cumulative circumstantial cases. Now, that doesn't mean it's bad evidence. Circumstantial evidence is anything other than an eyewitness is called indirect evidence, circumstantial evidence. So even DNA is circumstantial. Fingerprints are circumstantial evidence. So I'm looking at cumulative cases. In other words, 80 things point to this guy.
It's the weight. It's death by a thousand paper cuts, right? It is really that that one thing doesn't seem like much, but when you have 80 things pointing to this. So I get to a point examining what's in the New Testament and then all of this impact outside the New Testament where I finally said, OK, I trust that the New Testament is telling me something true about Jesus, but that does not make you a Christian.
I mean, the devils believe something is true about Jesus, but the demons believe this, but it doesn't mean there are Christ followers. Correct. So I always say it this way.
That took me about nine months, and there was no aha tipping point moment there. But I did get to a point where I told Susie, I said, I think this is telling me something true about Jesus, but I don't understand why God would have to die this way and come this way. Do you get that?
And she's like, I don't get it either. So, OK, so here we are. We've already now vetted the New Testament, and I was examining it to see what it said about Jesus. What changed for me was when I started to read the New Testament to see what it said about me.
That's when you start to have the aha moments, right? Because it's reading through Romans. It's reading through first Corinthians, the spiritual man and the natural man, right? That no one has ever really chases God.
We all reject God. This is really what I realized that Paul was talking about me. That's when you start having aha moments. So if you will read, look, at some point I realized that that person he's describing who's in need of a savior, that describes me.
But because I'd already done the homework to know there was a savior, I was able to connect that dot pretty easily. So what I would say is this, and I wrote about this years ago. I used to work homicides and I also worked officer involved shootings. I had an officer involved shooting one night where we come out, we interview the officer who got involved in the shooting. He stops a car for a drunk driving. He gets a drunk driver out and the drunk driver actually ends up wanting to kill the officer because he's on parole. And he does not want the officer to discover he's got a gun in his waistband. So as he gets this guy out of the car, the guy turns on the officer. He's pointing the gun at the officer. He made a decision that night he would rather kill the officer than go to jail.
The officer survived it. And he's now, I'm interviewing him and he tells me that at that moment, he knew, what am I going to do? I mean, it was a millisecond. I could jump.
I could try to, he just said, you know what? I knew I was wearing my bulletproof vest and I had seen that vest stop bullets in the range because we shoot at them. And so I knew that it was going to hurt. But if I could just tense up my muscles, I could take the first couple of rounds and get my gun out and return fire. So he stood there calmly and eventually survived the shooting. Now, I want you to think about that for a second. That's pretty harrowing, pretty courageous.
But the reason why he was able to stand calmly in a difficult situation was because he already knew evidentially that that vest could stop the bullets. And if you know something is true evidentially, when you're in a tough spot, you will end up defaulting like muscle memory to what you know is evidentially true. And so I want my kids, as I raised them, I hope that they know that this is evidentially true. And you're going to have a tragedy.
You're going to have a tough time. And you're going to be tempted to say, where's God in this? But if you know that this worldview can stop bullets, you will stand in the gunfight. And so I think we have to help our kids to understand that this is not just my wishful thinking or one of many options that will make your life better.
This is actually true, and it will stop bullets. Well, that is a powerful story and truth from our guest, J. Warner Wallace. You can obviously see why this was one of our most popular broadcasts in 2022. Jim is such an insightful thinker and truth seeker. And I pray that many non-Christians will be challenged to investigate the claims of Jesus and to study what the Bible teaches about him. You can't go wrong by having an open mind to what the Lord wants to reveal in your life. And for our Christian listeners, this book, Person of Interest, Why Jesus Still Matters in a World That Rejects the Bible, is a powerful evangelism tool. I recommend you get a copy so that you can be equipped to share your faith.
And as 1 Peter 3 says, make a defense to anyone who asks you for the hope that is in you. Contact us today to get your copy of Person of Interest. You can reach us and learn more when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459, or check the program notes to learn more. And if you can make a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family, we'll say thank you by sending a copy of the book by J. Warner Wallace right out to you. Here at the end of the year, I hope you'll remember to pray for Focus on the Family and that you'll prayerfully consider your ongoing commitment to this family outreach. Right now, we're looking for more monthly sustainers, people who are willing to make a monthly pledge so that we can equip and encourage more families in the days ahead. We anticipate hearing from hundreds of thousands of families in the coming year, and we rely on partners like you to meet this great need. So let's do ministry together to give more families hope in 2023. And of course, if a monthly pledge is more than you can do right now, a one-time gift is always appreciated. And thank you in advance for your generosity in whatever you can give.
Donate when you click the link in the program notes or by calling 800, the letter A in the word family. Well, have a great weekend with your family and your church family as well. And then coming up on Monday, we're going to have a powerful medical argument from Dr. Bill Lyle about the value of human life in the womb. No image of God yet. The baby comes out and then I deliver the baby and I hold it like I'm at the Mufasa and I say, behold, the image of God. Now, that's not when we were created in the image of God. How about when we do that first ultrasound and we can see that heart beating on the inside? Is that when we were created in the image of God?
No. The only biologic sense is that we were created in the image of God at that moment of conception. When oneself and the mom and oneself and the dad got together, that's when we were created in the image of God. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Just like a warm fireplace when it's cold outside, the joy of the Christmas season gives comfort and draws us closer to loved ones. I'm John Fuller and Focus on the Family is excited to let you know about our Christmas Stories podcast. Each episode brings heartwarming conversations to bring your family closer together and remind you of the hope we have in Jesus. You can enjoy that podcast at FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Christmas Stories. That's FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Christmas Stories.
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