I was convinced that nothing could change what was going on in our marriage.
And I didn't want to try anymore. But my commitment to God helped me try one more time. We went to a Hope Restored marriage intensive, and it was life-changing. The counselors created the safest environment we could imagine, so that let us really talk. We're on a much different course now, and I believe we received a miracle that week.
Receive your free consultation at HopeRestored.com. I knew I could play no more denial games within myself. And so I was just like, you know what, Sarah, you're absolutely right. This is not a safe situation.
This is not a safe relationship. You're absolutely right. Let's figure this out. Well, Matt Hammett is back with us today on Focus on the Family, along with his wife, Sarah. And we thank you for joining us.
I'm John Fuller. Your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly. John, I love hearing stories about couples who, you know, despite going through really deep challenges, they just never give up on each other. It's very encouraging, and it's such a picture of how Christ never gives up on us.
He's always there with his arms wide open, ready to forgive us and redeem us. And that's the story that we started last time. And if you missed it yesterday, download it, get in touch with us, get the smartphone app, whatever you need. It's right there available to you, and you can hear the story last time from Matt and Sarah, who endured many years of arguments and personality clashes.
Anybody raising their hand out there? You know, those clashes which led to fighting pretty constantly, and then they faced a terminal diagnosis of their baby boy. That's where we ended yesterday. And today we're going to pick up their story and explore how they stayed together, even though what they could see and feel was suggesting they should rip themselves apart. It's a really powerful conversation, and Matt was the lead singer of the very successful Christian band Sanctus Real for 20 years, and he's written a book chronicling their story and offering some insights.
It's called Lead Me, finding courage to fight for your marriage, children, and faith. And we've got that here. The details are in the episode notes. Matt and Sarah, welcome back to Focus. We loved having you last time, and let's pick up where we left off. You just received some really difficult news with your third child. You mentioned the dreams your little girl, your oldest Emmy, was having for years, even before you were pregnant, about her little brother maybe dying someday. That was powerful, and how God used your daughter to speak to your heart in that way and gave you what I caught was just the courage to stick with it and let the Lord determine the days of Bowen's life, not some physician.
And that had to be so hard, though. Yeah, I mean, we always, you know, have been advocates for life, always believe, you know, the Psalm 139, you know, that God knows us before we're born and creates us. Nobody but the Lord himself fashions us in the womb.
You know, we believe he numbers our days, just as you said, Jim. And so I think for us, it was definitely first our faith, but also there was a lot of hope that we felt. And just, you know, even like the story of Emmy and his dreams that she had, you know, it's like God sometimes does work through even children, right, to strengthen our faith. So we were resolved, despite what the physicians were saying, to see it through, and in my mind, I wanted to be strong, and so I was going to just trust and hope and not allow myself to emotionally dive into the worst case scenario. But when that became really difficult was the night after surgery. We had a cardiac arrest at 2.13 AM. They called us and told us the bones hard stop beating, and we didn't even want to leave his bedside, but they said, you've got you guys.
We weren't allowed to stay at his bedside through the night. Yeah, they were like, you've got to go get some sleep. And so when they called us, we rushed to his room.
It was the most surreal moment because that worship music was playing at full blast. There was a team of doctors and nurses around his bedside working to save his life. They had his chest literally open with their hands in between the walls of his chest, pumping his little heart to keep him alive.
And we're at the bottom of his bedside just grabbing his toes and trying to hold on to what we can. After 45 minutes, they pulled us away in another room, and I just remember Sarah was almost stone cold because she had spent so much time processing this could happen, this could happen. She was preparing herself, and she just was kind of in that moment of like, here it is, whereas I had not allowed myself to go there. And for the very first time, I remember I just lost it.
You could hardly stand. You were falling. Yeah, I just remember saying, okay, Jesus, you're my treasure.
Jesus, you're my treasure. Reminded myself I have to look at that and know that no matter what I lose. And then I remember we prayed for him, and the nurse who called us to tell us that his heart had stopped beating actually came in that room and told us that Bowen's heart was beating again, that they had gotten him on life support and they were able to save his life. And that was news we were not expecting. Grateful for it, but man, you can imagine the pendulum swing of emotion. Man, I mean, my eyes are filled with tears just listening to that. And I think the right question is the one that everybody would be thinking about is were you shaking your fist at God?
Because you went from this trust at all costs to what just happened and Lord, why did you let me down and what's going on? Did you have time to process that? I definitely asked a lot of hard questions leading up to it, even though I wouldn't let myself maybe emotionally process the depth of what it could feel like to lose a son. And in those moments, I think what I was prepared for actually was that part because I, when I found out, really struggled through that entire time. And even journaled it on the blog and shared these thoughts with other people who really resonated with it because so many people were going through the same sorts of things. So there was kind of this community that I developed online with people who were asking the same questions. And I read a lot of different books on the issue of suffering and why God allows things to happen.
And so I can honestly say that by the grace of God, because I felt prepared in that moment, I was able to just look at Jesus and trust that the treasure of him being enough for me, that was enough. Let me ask on behalf of those parents that did lose a child. They didn't have the comeback.
They couldn't resuscitate. What do you say to them? Well, I think I might not even be able to say it. No, it's okay. Like the miracle that other people didn't get is so hard for me. Sorry. It's okay. It's just so hard. It's hard to find the balance of being so grateful for the miracle we received.
But then I just have helped so many moms who didn't get it and I don't know why. Right. So anyway, sorry.
No, I mean, that's the right answer. We don't understand these things. We're not God. Yeah. You know, we don't understand what he's doing in all of our lives and how he works these things.
The one thing I do know is that those children I believe are in heaven. Yeah. And, you know, God's open arms and I just trust in that God's heart, his grace is big enough for that situation. Yeah.
And we need to count on that. I do need to press through because, Matt, it seemed like, no, I love your heart. Sorry, that's the hardest part for me. Don't apologize.
It's so wonderful and I'm so grateful that you do feel the pain of other people. That's a good thing. Yeah. But in that way, Matt, it seemed like in the book, you get back on tour.
Yeah. I mean, you're committing to more days of touring and Sarah's back with two children and this newborn that's, you know, going and struggling. I mean, what was that about? This was a strange moment in time for me because I had been working on this dream, right, this music dream. I've been feeling the tension between the music dreams and the family dreams. This is the tension we write about in the book.
I mean, this is the thing we all feel, right? And in that moment, the day that Bowen had his first open heart surgery was the day that Lead Me, the song, went number one. Same day. Same day. That's crazy. So we have a number one song, which is everything I wanted, right?
All the sales are going berserk and all the charts are great. And that's what I had tried to strive for. And did I care at that moment? No, I didn't care at that moment because my son was dying. And it was such a stark contrast of those family dreams versus the career dreams and in the end what was really important. Now, where it gets really interesting is that the song that I had written about being a more present husband and father, that goes number one while I'm in the hospital with Bowen through his heart surgeries.
The success of that song ended up taking me away from my family even more. So, you know, come February after this time we spent in the hospital, these few months of dealing with this, we take a very sick child home. They unplug him from all the monitors that had meant everything for months and said, here you go, here's your baby. It's like 10 minutes ago we had to watch that monitor religiously and now they just unplug it and send you home.
And you're like, she's scared out of her mind as a mother, obviously, and wants to make sure she does everything right and so do I. But guess what? The band and the work, the career is calling. And it is how I make income, that's right.
And that was part of it too. It's like, okay, we've taken these months off. Now it's time to, we've got a number one song. It's time to go reek. I'm sure, yeah.
And the record company is probably saying you've got to get out there. Yeah, of course. I mean, all these competing problems. Now you find yourself on the road emotionally where you're at and what's happening with some of the people you're working with. This is where the story turns to the common story of what happens to a lot of men who are isolated. Absolutely. So Sarah and I are grieving differently.
And I'll make this very quick so I can move into what you're talking about. But basically in grieving differently, she was, her way of dealing with her grief was being at Bowen's bedside or his side in general 24 hours a day. Caregiver.
Caregiver. I tried to do as much of that as I could, but I really needed her the way I grieved. And so she felt animosity towards me that I wasn't at the bedside 24-7 right next to her. That I was, in her mind, I was trying to pull her away. And I was another thing that needed her. Yeah, describe that because a lot of women are going to connect with that feeling.
A lot of men aren't going to really understand what Matt's talking about. I just felt so strongly that I had to be at Bowen's voice because he had no voice. And so the way I'm built, I'm just, I was hyper vigilant and hyper aware and hyper available to Bowen.
Only Bowen, Bowen, Bowen, Bowen. It was all consuming. It was all consuming. And I do think looking back, I could have, for sure, it was maybe imbalanced for sure. I could have found ways to balance that a little better, but I didn't know how to at that time. And how did you react emotionally then to Matt's maybe not so subtle demand for your... I thought he was selfish.
I mean, really, and now I see that that's not selfish. It's the way he was grieving, how he coped. He needed me to hold him and hug him and sit with him and be away from the bedside for even, he would even just ask for 15, 20 minutes. And it was like, no, I can't.
What if a doctor comes in? You know, it was, it was just, we didn't know what, we've never done it before. Well, super stress is what it sounds like. I become very aware and you, I fight and you flight kind of is what we figured out in those scenarios. In ways, yeah.
In ways. And I'm not sure where you're at as a listener or viewer, but I'm identifying with that pattern you're talking about. Matt has written about their journey and there's a good ending here, obviously, but it's the book, Lead Me, finding courage to fight for your marriage, children and faith. And certainly we'd recommend you get a copy from us here at Focus on the Family, or if you need to connect with one of our counselors.
We have Caring Christian Counselors here and our number is 800, the letter A and the word family, or we're at focusonthefamily.com slash broadcast. Matt, I want to be really careful here because you guys have worked hard to get where you're at today and it's, you know, it's in many ways unfortunate to kind of do an interview and relive your worst possible moments. And I recognize that, but at the same time, there are going to be people listening right now that are right where you were then. And they need to hear that wisdom to say, how did you get out of that? So you go back on the road, there's a new band manager.
She seems very empathetic to you and you're her superstar and she's treating you that way. Yeah. Describe the emotions of that and what began to happen. Yeah. I mean, I was really in a place where, um, I was, you know, we talked about a moment ago, grieving, there was a rift between me and Sarah and I had someone who was just ready and able to speak those loving words and life felt like me words of life-giving words and affirmation, uh, straight into those, those absences. Right.
And to those hungry places. And so what ended up happening is that I began to like idolize that feeling of getting that from this person because I felt at the time I wasn't getting it from Sarah. And, you know, it was delicate with us even after addressing this. And I tried my bad. We wrote this chapter probably seven or eight times because it's so hard because we always ask, well, what defines an affair? Right.
And that's it. I struggled at first even call it that, but as we know, an affair is anything that takes, that steals from that, that well of cherishing love that you are meant for your spouse. And you are channeling that into another place. I was giving pieces of my heart and life and that friendship and relationship that was meant to be shared only with Sarah, those vulnerable places, I was allowing that door to be opened in another relationship. And to the point where I was uncomfortable enough with it, I kept telling myself, well, there's not a physical attraction.
She's older than I am. She's a safe place. But I knew full well that it was not a safe place. Well, and to a spouse, you know, that's listening. I mean, I love that warning because that certainly is in the early steps of what most likely would lead to something more.
Absolutely. And so, I mean, I hope people are heeding the warning there. Sarah, I want to make sure on behalf of women listening that, you know, you're not owning the guilt of that.
I mean, again, it can sound like, you know, you weren't meeting certain emotional needs that Matt had at the moment and therefore it was your fault in some way. And people will email us and I just want to make sure we hit it. And I want to make sure I hit it in no way, shape or form. Correct. I take full responsibility. Right.
And I appreciate that because I think so often women, you know, men that will express those things, they can misinterpret that sometimes, you know, they're interpreting it accurately. I know for a fact, it's not true in this case. I just want to make sure you're not you're not the bad person here. You're coping yourself. Yeah, yeah. No, I, I just felt, you know, in my response to what he said, even as he was saying it was, you were insatiable, like, as many compliments as I could give you at that time weren't enough. That's what it felt like to me because I felt very loving in that time. I felt very needy. We both just couldn't see straight. And he, I think, you know, we were just so broken and processing things in such an upside down way.
So, yeah, I even look at that and go, I felt like I was enough in that moment. I mean, I'm sure I wasn't perfect, but You think of spiritually, you think of the enemy, you know, looking to steal, kill and destroy. I mean, think of it in that spiritual context of how quickly that evilness works into that vacuum. It's tricky. I mean, it was so tricky. Here we are in such a vulnerable place and who would have thought?
And I think I would have never thought with Matthew because it's not something we ever dealt with in the past. But you did have kind of a bad feeling, right? You had some. Oh, absolutely.
And I will say absolutely. I remember meeting this person and I had been hearing about her because I'm home, you know, taking care of kids. And oh, you've got to meet this person. She's so great. She's so warm. She's so all everything we've been looking for. And she's my new best friend. And I'm like, oh, cool. OK. OK. And I'm trying to give it a try.
Right. And I go to give her a hug and I just felt repelled. There was a stiffness to it. And she had no questions for me. And I could just I'm a girl's girl. I love girls. And so I'm like, she didn't like me. There's something off there because she's not interested in me. And so immediately my spirit was like or the Holy Spirit was like, something's off. Yeah. And I'm very as I've said before, I'm very open.
I'm very direct. And so I started telling him, I don't feel right about this. Something's off. So we got to I mean, we've got to pull this thing in. We're down to the end. No, no.
Are you kidding me? This is good. I think people have connected. But we've got to kind of fast forward through how God got a hold of this and how you got a hold of yourselves and one another, literally.
So what was that breakthrough moment? What happened for you, Matt? Say what is going on and begin to cleave again? Yeah, Sarah, as your wife, there are some things that happened that made me aware that I saw that I was like, OK, this is this is certainly this is unsafe.
This is I knew it for I could not did I could play no more denial games within myself. And so I just like, you know what, Sarah, you're absolutely right. This is not a safe situation. This is not a safe relationship.
You're absolutely right. Let's figure this out. So we parted ways. And that was kind of the beginning of us. Then processing the whole thing together had to I had to earn trust back with her. Right. And so I had to learn how to be patient with the fact that just because everything had gotten resolved, nothing crazy happened. I could brush it off and say, oh, well, it was a close call. It was this and that it wasn't that look at all the things that wasn't instead of what it was.
Right. I had to deal with the fact of what it was and the hurt that was there. And how did how did that trust get rebuilt there for you?
I just think I had to remember that that isn't who he is. It was just a blip in time. And, you know, I think we did some things right. We did some things wrong as we processed it and healed from it. So I think one thing is for women, I needed to know everything right up front, all of it. And I needed to ask questions as I processed it. It couldn't be in one conversation.
It's going to maybe be a year of me going, well, what about this? Like, what about that? And I don't like being patient and kind and sure, it's scratching up pain for him, too. But I need to know these answers. I'm a person who needs the answer. Now, some women I know don't want all the details. Right. And that's how they process.
So maybe just, you know, that is a big investigator. So I had to learn how to be patient with the fact that, like, you know, the pain of like, why do you trust me? Wasn't that or wasn't that or if she was asking things that seemed ridiculous even to me. You know, I wanted I had to be patient and learn how to let her ask those questions. Sure. And and let her just feel those things and just accept it.
Right. And then speak life and love and in a calm, gentle, understanding way. It would scratch his shame every time I would bring it up. And so there was that struggle sometimes.
I can only imagine. And, you know, if you weren't agreeing on something entirely different, it was probably very a useful tool to come back at him and say, well, well, if you want to get down to it. Even mild arguments bring me straight back to the way I felt he didn't love me. And so even to this day, if I feel like the same eyes and the same heart are responding to me, that could have done what happened there. I will say that brings me back to that because I feel like that was the heart. That was the eyes. That was the action that hurt me so much. And again, the good news is you're restored.
You work through a lot of issues. In fact, Matt, you did something pretty extreme. I want to capture that.
And then I want that update on Bowen. But what was that extreme thing that you did that you felt Sarah would appreciate? So even before all this stuff happened that we're talking about, I had attention. You know, I had that tension, the work dream, the family dream in me from the moment we had our first daughter.
You know, our first out of the four now. And and over the course of time, I felt that restlessness. But in about 2014, the end of 2014, I started to feel that that restlessness inside of me, of how do I be the father and the husband that God's called me to be, the message of leave me that I was singing every night on stage. How do I live this more and sing it less? And I knew that the thing that I needed to do to live the message I had been singing was for me to step away from that life that had really taken me away from Sarah and the kids to then take the best of my life and stop giving it to something else and find a context in which I could use my gifts and my talents. That was also healthy for my family life as well.
Yeah. And so I made the decision to step away from the only thing I'd known for 20 years, which is sanctus real. And so spent a year trying the best that I could honor my band mates and honor the people who had sewed into our music, honored people who had been listened and supported us along the way.
And then in 2016, on a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean, played my last show sanctus real and handed the mic to a new singer. It was hard. It was, it was, it was hard, but it was the right thing to do. And as hard as it was, it was what God was calling me to do. Wow.
I mean, you just said the words that are so critical to a man's heart, the right thing to do. Yeah. The warrior spirit. Yeah. Good job. Thank you.
Way to go. I do want to come back to Bowen and end here because this is really good. Bowen's 10 years old.
You mentioned that I think right at the start of the show or last time he also has picked up a knack for songwriting. Describe Bowen today and where he's at. Well, first I want to say, you know, the doctors we talked about before who are encouraging us to terminate our pregnancy said that our life would be hard because of him, that our siblings would be worse off because of him. But I'll tell you right now that because of him, our family is stronger. Our children have empathy. Our children have compassion.
Our children have our stronger people and our family is stronger because we have something in front of us that constant reminds us that every day is precious. And, and he is such a precious kid. He's loved by his siblings. He loves his siblings.
Well, you know, we often talk about Bowen's broken heart, but the truth is that we all broken hearts. And he, well, he has physically represents us all spiritually and emotionally in this life. Sarah and I hold on to the hope that one day God will make everything new. Amen. That's what he came to do. Yeah. And that's what your son had 10. Yeah.
Chokes me up. Yeah. He already caught the lesson.
He knows it. That's right. That's awesome.
That's right. And we do what we can to bring a little bit of heaven on earth, like Jesus told us to in the meantime. Well, Matt and Sarah, this has been really great. Thanks for that vulnerability to share it with us and make sure you get Bowen and your other kids a big hug for representing the Lord so well. And we appreciate it. I hope you get a copy of the book, Lead Me, finding courage to fight for your marriage, children and faith.
I can't think of a greater resource for the family. And if you can't afford it, just get a hold of us. We'll trust that others will cover the cost of that. And this is what being in the body of Christ is all about. And in addition to that, if you don't know who Jesus is, get a hold of us.
We'll talk with you about that. This is what life is about, is to know him and live for him. It's not finger wagging. It's not a bunch of rules. It's loving the Creator of the universe and then being a part of his family.
It's that simple. And I hope you get in touch with us. And if you can, please donate generously to the work of Focus on the Family. And as Jim said, we'll say thank you for your support by sending a copy of that book to you. And this reminder that we have caring Christian counselors here. And also, along the way here, we've talked about Hope Restored, our marriage intensives.
That can be a very pivotal moment for your relationship. God can do a miracle. For any of these resources or any help, let us know. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family.
800-232-6459. And you can also find the links in the episode notes. Matt and Sarah, thank you for your heart. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Appreciate it. On behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. on Friday, July 16th at 7 p.m. Then each week we'll debut a new episode to equip you on the pro-life issues of our day. You'll hear from respected leaders and see amazing testimonies from women and men whose lives have been impacted. So join us for this life-changing six-week experience online, premiering on Friday, July 16th. Also mark your calendar now for the culmination of Sea Life 2021 with a Celebrate Life Live experience in Dallas-Fort Worth on August 28th. For more details, visit FocusOnTheFamily.com slash Sea Life.
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