Letting God's Light Shine Through Your Marriage

Do the issues in your marriage seem insurmountable? You can break free from cycles of pain with help from Focus on the Family's Hope Restored marriage intensive. We've helped thousands of couples who thought that their marriage was over.

Find out which program is right for you at HopeRestored.com. When you look at me, what do you see? Is this a trap?

It sounds like a trap. Just answer the question. Well, you're very pretty, a nice smile, love your dress, you've got a great personality. This isn't for an online profile. I want the truth.

Honey, I think you're perfect just the way you are. Wait, come back. What did I say? Well, maybe you had a conversation like that with your spouse. Can there be anything more awkward than asking someone what they really think and seeing you? Well, today on Focus on the Family, we're going to be exploring how to bring more transparency and authenticity into your marriage. And your host is Focus president and author, Jim Daly.

I'm John Fuller. John, this topic sometimes is daunting to me personally, but I think men in general, you know, trying to open up with your feelings and even use that terminology we turn off because it's hard to do. It doesn't come naturally.

I think you look at the brain chemistry of it. You know, men aren't quite wired the same way as women are. Women are.

They've got twice the connections between the two hemispheres of the brain. They're constantly thinking about things and their feelings. But for us, it can be like, wow, what a waste of time. You know, you really want to go to the feelings of things. And so for the guys listening, hang with us. We understand your pain. And for the women listening, we are going to talk about how perhaps your man can get a little more in touch emotionally with you.

And we're going to give you some great ideas, both of you, to really improve your marriage today. Yeah, and this works both ways. I think for husbands like you and me and for wives as well, it's a struggle at times to be vulnerable. And when we go out on a limb and it doesn't go so well, we feel invalidated or distant and disconnected.

That happened. I was going to say, are you talking from experience here? Just last night, we had a little argument.

Go ahead. And it's icy cold in the bedroom emotionally. And I'm reading the prep for this broadcast interview. And it just felt a little awkward. But that's life. What's funny is the title of the book, See Through Marriage. So you're laying in bed last night reading See Through Marriage. And you and Deena are having a little spat.

There's a thick veil of darkness in our relationship. Did it get resolved is the question people are going to be wondering. Not always right away, but always gets resolved.

Well, that is super vulnerable. Thank you, John. We'll explore that more in the next half hour.

Hey, if you haven't already figured it out, this is obviously a common issue in marriages. We have two wonderful guests today, Ryan and Selena Frederick. They are authors, speakers and podcast hosts.

They started FierceMarriage.com in 2013. After they felt God calling them to openly share their own marital struggles with others, which, let me just say, and I appreciate what you just said, John, that's where people connect. I mean, people are not perfect. If you haven't figured that out, not particularly maybe Christian leadership. We're as vulnerable as everybody else.

And when we put that facade forward that somehow we're perfect, it's wrong. Ryan and Selena, let me say welcome back to Focus. Hey, thanks for having us. And I should note that the Fredericks have written a number of books and the one we're really zeroing in on today is called See Through Marriage, experiencing the freedom and joy of being fully known and fully loved. And you can get your copy.

We've got the link in the episode notes. Well, let's get right into it. Describe what transparency is supposed to look like, and then explain why you say it's both our greatest desire and our greatest fear.

I can relate to the fear part. Yes, yes. And that's a big topic, big question. I think it's tricky.

It's not easy to nail down. That's one of the reasons why we wrote this book is because people want this level of being known and they want this level of feeling loved because they feel fully known. And so what does that actually look like in marriage and in biblical relationship? I think we see a picture of that. The passage that we kind of focus on is in 1 John 1.

We walk in the light as he is in the light so that we can have two things, fellowship with one another and being cleansed from unrighteousness. So what does it mean to have a transparent marriage? I think it's just being not hiding anything.

And that's easier said than done. Yeah. I was going to say one of the challenges sometimes in counseling, you know, they will coach you to not necessarily share everything.

You know, when I was 15, I did this or when I was 18, I did that. Yeah. Is there room for, you know, being wise there and not being silly about so yeah, I think the the perp we look at the end purpose of transparency, right?

It's not just to share all of our dirty laundry and rehash some crime scenes, things that we've, you know, experienced in our marriage or outside of our marriage, but really the purpose is to say this is an experience I had and it might be contributing to the struggles that we're having. So it has context. Oh, that's good.

I like that. You compare our transparency to a stained glass window. In fact, your book cover is awesome. I mean, it's got holes punched through it and it looks like a stained glass window.

And in fact, Jean commented on it, how much she liked it. So you connected just with the book cover. But what were you getting at there that our transparency is like a stained glass window? Yeah. So Selena spoke to the context, the end in mind, which is to what as Christians, what is our purpose, right? To glorify God.

And as John Piper would say, enjoy Him forever, right? That sort of thing. And so stained glass is the picture we kind of zeroed in on in that we're imperfect shards of glass for different shades, different colors, actually came from experience we had, we got engaged at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City. And it was just so beautiful. And I remember thinking about that and just being in awe of how wonderful this intricate design was. And then as we write in this book, I was thinking, I was thinking, Selena was thinking about this. I was like, no, I'm pretty sure this was my idea. This is, we constantly have this.

Good for you, Selena. But what made it beautiful was the light, right? And so our role is really to be, I guess, vessels of the light, right? In the Gospel of John, that's what John the Baptist said is, I'm not the light, but I'm here to tell you about the one who is the light, right?

And one of the first verses there, the light has shown in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it, right? That's Jesus. And that's our role.

That's why transparency is important. So how did that idea come to you? This is your moment. I'm giving it to you, Selena. Oh, yes. Finally.

Finally here. No, I just, when we're talking about being see-through and being transparent and knowing, I guess, knowing ourselves, seeing ourselves rightly, right? Through the lens of the Gospel. And so when I'm, when I can see who I am, see the flaws that are inside of me, know that those are there for a purpose. They're not just there to hurt the people around me to live in darkness and shame and isolation, but they're there because God has allowed them and they add beauty and they add purpose when, only when He is shown through that.

So not only is He, through the Gospel, calling us out of the darkness, but He's calling us into the light, right? So there's this too, absolutely. Where things are seen. You know, but here's the problem. We as human beings, maybe because of that sin nature that we have, we don't like that.

Right. You know, we do hide and we do pull back from being exposed. And I guess, let me ask a two-part question you guys go for. A, why do we do that?

As rational people, and maybe the answer's right there because we're not rational people, but we see that covering up is, in the short run, a better move than being transparent. And I think he even looked at Adam and Eve in that regard, right? Yeah. We're just like them, right? When they sinned, what did they do? They ran and hid.

They felt naked and ashamed, whereas they had been naked and unashamed previous to the fall. And then God's, you know, walking through the cool of the, we all know the story, or at least probably know the story. And he says, where are you? Well, that's God basically saying, like, come clean on the, tell me, recognize what happened here.

And I think, anyway, our tendency is to do that. I love this quote. I can't remember verbatim, but Jared Wilson wrote this and it's, he said, Adam and Eve, when they sinned in the garden, they ran and hid behind the trees.

And he says, I think they're onto something. Now today we have a tree we can run and hide behind. And that tree is the cross of Christ. And so I think to fight that tendency is to admit the authority and the truth of the gospel and to really pin your identity on that, and to trust that. And I think that's the fight of the Christian life in marriage and parenting and just living is to constantly believe, repent and believe the gospel more fully so that I can actually live in full light of it. And that's why it's important in marriage because we see marriage as an avenue for this, this sanctification to continue happening. And that's what the book's really all about.

Yeah. You know, I want to go there and I, in the open, I talked about brain chemistry and all that. And I know some are going to say, well, I'm more like how men act and my husband's more like how, and I get that it's kind of the 80, 20 rule, but how much of that plays into our, I guess our inability to, especially as men, I'll just ask you Selena, you know, just me as a husband. I mean, this is for Jean and I, this is our thing in our marriage. I mean, she's, you know, she just feels like I'm not as connected emotionally. Some of that's trauma, you know, in our childhood, I'm sure it's survival instincts, but how do we as men become more aware? How do we, you know, engage our wives? It's a little frightening to us.

Sure. You know, I think the biggest thing is knowing them, knowing how they feel loved. Oftentimes I think we project how I feel loved through words of affirmation. So therefore I'm going to give my husband words of affirmation when maybe that doesn't speak volumes at all to him.

Right. So kind of, again, learning their love language, understanding. I mean, you mentioned family of origin and past trauma. I think I can identify with that of not knowing how to always receive the love.

And I think maybe women, you know, come from a generation of divorce and men falling out of the household. And so then I'm looking at him, trying to connect with him and loving him and allowing him to love me. But that can be a struggle because I haven't identified that as, you know, knowing a savior through your father. And that's a disconnect. Yeah. And I appreciate that, Selena, because so often I think in my own experience, I feel like Jean's expectations are so high.

I only got one route and that's disappointment because I can't get on that highway with you. But she's, you know, she has that expectation. In fact, two years ago or so you had, you know, some painful experiences, your memories of your family.

Describe what happened there so people can latch onto this. Yeah. Yeah. So basically God had been kind of softening my heart to this thing. And it took months probably for me to get to the point that I'm going to explain here.

But basically I had been remembering things from my childhood, like 9, 10, 11, 12 years old around there that really just made me feel a lot of shame. And the details aren't honestly that important. I think everybody has something in there that's like, it's just kind of squished down in the noun. Right. Yeah. Whatever it is. And I was just like, yeah, that's not relevant to our marriage. I'm just, it just thought of it for whatever reason, but I don't need to deal with it. So I kept kind of pushing it down, but the Holy Spirit would not let that remain. Right.

And so I was in church one morning and we were doing communion and I was just, and it was just like, I just felt this it's clear as day. You need to just be transparent in this. You are writing a book on this, right. And you try to live this. And so anyway, that's called conviction. Right. It's so inconvenient. We don't like that either.

No, it's terrible. And so on the way home from church, I just said, Hey, I got to talk to you about, it was actually during communion. I said, this said, I need to tell you something just so you know, like it's from a long time ago, but I just need to be known in this way.

And so you're kind of, Selena's kind of like on pins and needles, right? We didn't really talk a lot going home. We went out to lunch with the kids.

They had, by God's grace, they all fell asleep in the car. And so we had this private moment and I could just say, Hey, this is, and just put it all out there. And, but your reaction, I thought you were gonna just reject me and just like basically throw it in my face and, and make me feel more shame. And I was going out on a limb and instead she says, Hey, that just helps me love you more.

By the way, here's how I can be vulnerable. And now you start, she starts sharing all these things that she had kind of been feeling the same level of conviction on. And then, you know, an hour later we felt closer than ever.

Yeah. And I think as a spouse, it kind of, it still kind of grieves me to hear that, you know, my husband thinks that this is the way I'll respond. Not that he doesn't know me. I think it has very little to do with you. I mean, it's our fear.

It's the fear that we create that if I am transparent, I'm going to get crushed because it's not healthy. It's not right. Right. Right. And that, how does a couple, you know, how do they have their moment? Like you were there at communion. That's pretty profound.

Yeah. How do you begin to set that up with one another? Honey, I want to tell you something that's going to really be hard to hear. I'm a big fan of queuing it up and saying, Hey, we need, we need margin to talk about this. Let's set a time. Let's set a place.

Let's make sure we have an hour because I want to talk to you about an important thing. I think I come more prepared. Selena comes more prepared.

Kids are asleep or babies, whatever that thing is. And we can actually, instead of just throwing it out there and having it be a can of worms. This can work both ways again.

So I don't mean to put the shoe on one foot, but Selena, I do. You're representing all females here. So, I mean, in that regard, how does a woman who's, you know, kind of in a good place, she's healthy, spiritually healthy, emotionally, she's got some concerns for her husband's inability to be transparent emotionally. How, if that moment comes and he's going to tell you something, how do you, I want to say ensure, but I don't think you can, but how do you react in such a way that allows you to have continued transparency and you don't really step on his oxygen hose? I mean, that's got to be hard too, especially if it's tough news. You know, a previous relationship before you got married, whatever it might be.

What coaching do you have for the wife, particularly to say, bite your tongue. And how do you respond if it's not a positive thing? Oh, the Lord is so faithful.

I think the Holy Spirit is so faithful to show up in your own heart and in your own life. And knowing how much God's grace has extended to me, I therefore can see how delicate of a situation this is. And my response is so important at that moment.

If I clamp down that oxygen hose, it's going to kill, it's just going to kill him. And I remember, I vividly remember one of our first really hard conversations as a kind of probably three, four years into our marriage of, you know, talking about certain addictions or something. And he had shared with me and I was, I felt that I was like, God has given me this position of either helping my husband really helping and stepping into that role, or really cutting him off and allowing sin and brokenness to just take over. And I felt like the Holy Spirit was just saying, just love him, just extend grace, by extending grace, you are not permitting, you're not allowing, you're not saying this is okay, what you're saying is, I have grace for you, I have forgiveness for you, this is what I've experienced in Christ, let's do this together, let's walk in this together, because he's not alone, we are one.

So whatever his struggles might be, those are mine as well. So who am I to Lord anything over anyone. So I can then come alongside. And it's a joyous role, honestly, to step into to be able to really, I think, help and love your husband, your man, you know, that's healthy.

It sounds good. And that's the call of marriage, isn't it? To carry each other's burdens in a way that nobody else really can. So our guests today on Focus on the Family are Ryan and Selena Frederick, and they've written a great book, See Through Marriage, experiencing the freedom and joy of being fully known and fully loved. And I will encourage you to get a copy when you call 800, the letter A in the word family. We're stopped by the episode notes for more.

Let's move to another area. In your book, See Through Marriage, you referred to a financial study of 2000 Americans that revealed some fascinating things about our hidden selves. The study said we're like superheroes in reverse. Okay, explain that to me.

Yeah. It's such a weird concept to me. But basically, the zeitgeist, right, or what people do online is so different from their real lives. And I think superhero, right, where a superhero has a secret identity, and that secret identity is their common man, right? And then the superhero is the one that everybody knows about. And then they live their regular life.

Well, the superheroes in reverse is that their everyday life is too mundane for them to share with anyone else. They're embarrassed. And so they're embarrassed by it. So they put on this facade online. And so one of the things of the study that we revealed is people were putting on this front of being financially successful, right? And this is a big study, thousands of people. And then over half of them were crying admin, like they had noted crying in private in the past, like month or in the past week about money.

Yeah. And so what that revealed is this tendency that social media does kind of breed in us, or I guess it exploits in us is to put on the facade of what we think is valuable or important or worthwhile. And, and then we are living these private lives that are completely hidden. And that obviously bleeds over into our marriages as well. Selena, in that vein, let me ask you about, again, particularly women who struggle, portraying their homes or their kids in the perfect way, they get embarrassed about something, you refer to it in the book as a beautiful mess.

So you're a mom of three young girls, you must be feeling like you're always behind, you can never be on top of everything and get everything done and make sure all the homework, I mean, all of it, I get it. So what does a beautiful mess look like? And emotionally, what does that speak to a wife and a mom's heart? Yeah, um, there's been a theme, I think, in the past, I'd say, what, five to eight years of that beautiful mess era of, oh, look at me, I'm just kind of holding it together, falling apart, all these, you know, pictures of either perfection or total mess, right?

There's no in between. And I think that I think the tide is shifting a little bit, at least it has in my own heart of saying, there can be mess, but there can be beauty, but it doesn't have to be either or. And I think the transparency aspect of this emotionally, like, I you just have to slow down, you can't do it all.

And you have to admit that and us trying to take on those roles of doing all the things, keeping all the house clean and all of what are the the words that are going through your head? What's the script that you're hearing and listening to? Is it one from the Lord? Because I don't remember him saying that you had to do all these things to be?

Or is it one that you're putting on yourself or one that's been? You've been on social media too much. And you're hearing this script of lies of this is how everybody lives. They have super clean houses, they have 20 children, super clean houses, home educate, do all the things.

It's perfect. And again, that's a lie. It's a facade. And so yeah, and the beautiful mess piece felt like kind of an excuse to sit and be transparent without the context of why transparency is kind of stopping halfway through on that, not just to be transparent, honest, because who doesn't love watching, you know, kind of a beautiful mess unfold before them? No, the point is to be sanctified to move past it to move past the sin to move past the dysfunction to move into holiness and, and flourishing.

And that's the first john verse, right? Right, exactly. Right. Yet, Selena, you write about isolation in marriage, where we're tempted to keep problems hidden from our spouse, I think everybody can relate to that. It just sounds like a lot of work. I mean, if I say that, I mean, man, we're going to be talking about it for months to come. But the irony is, it does, that's the very thing that develops that intimacy that strengthens us.

So it's a weird contradiction. But you know, the obvious question is, what's wrong with the silent approach? I mean, is it really worth it? Is the payoff of intimacy worth sharing my deepest thoughts? Yes, absolutely. I that's my conversation in my head all the time.

Do I really need to bring this up? Because I feel like things are good. They're all right.

They're fine. And the Holy Spirit is so good and faithful, right to lead us again, back into the light, the only we so desperately, like you said, want that intimacy with our spouse, we want to be known, we want to be loved. But the only way to experience that and to engage in that is to be transparent is to share those hard and dark places. Well, that makes me think of something else you mentioned in the book about being generous in your communication. And you know, that's always a good thing, especially as believers in Christ, we don't always attain that, but we aim for that. So what does generosity and communication look like?

Yeah, it's really tough. I think if we're in a good spot in our marriage, we can listen to each other more generously, more charitably, in that I can hear past her words, I can hear what she's actually meaning to say in the heart behind what she's trying to say. And then one of the speaking of young Ryan, early married Ryan, terrible habit I had was trying to was using words arguments to kind of belittle my wife, which is an insidious manipulation thing that so many men do.

And I've repented of it, and hopefully we've grown out of it. But I actually instead of throwing her own and arguing her into a smaller place, I can actually say, I think what you're trying to say is, or another thing, if you're like, that sounds too hard, I don't know how to read into the past that. Well, if you don't know, just ask questions. Asking questions is such a great way to understand where your spouse is coming from. And then you can ask questions. Well, I know, but being careful of your tone and just, you know, saying I'm trying to understand you lovingly, like, I want to help. How can? Here's my question. I can relate to that.

But my issue is more like finishing sentences. Because I'm going, okay, let's go, let's go. Yeah.

So that's probably not a good idea. Right? Selena, I'm just from a woman. You know, the coaching you can give me there. Don't finish your wife's sentences.

She's pretty good with that. I like, can you just let me tell you what I'm thinking rather than you tell me what I'm thinking. I had one of those the other day where we were on a walk and you just kind of went off for like 20 minutes. It wasn't at me. It was about other things. And I just, just listening, trying to articulate back. And I think you felt very loved after that.

And like you had been heard and, and then you wanted to hold my hand the rest of the walk, like really connected. Well, I mean, that's the, that's the thing. If men really understood this, that intimacy emotionally that you create, it benefits the entire relationship. And, and so many wives are desperate for that. You do relate marriage to cooking. And of course, I've got to get in and figure out, okay, how does that work and the ingredients, but what was your point in that example of how marriage is like cooking? Yeah. So this is a long story.

I'll try to make it short, but basically we got into this. I got into this new cooking method called sous vide, which is basically your, you put meat in a bag and you put in hot water and it cooks at a precise temperature. It's this tool. It's a tool that you put into a pot and you in any way, it's really easy to work with. And then what I love about it is it removes all the variables, right?

You're not having to worry about oven temp or like having on a barbecue and it gets burned. It's very predictable and controlled. And so communication is complicated. It's actually really easy. I'll show you some time. It's the right tool.

It's the right tool. But and so the point in the book was that by removing all these different variables, we actually focus on what matters and that's the meat of the conversation. So for communication, that would be timing. You know, is this a good time? Are we both tired and hungry or whatever that is? Or are we at the in-laws house? It's not a good time to have this fight. Are the kids crying in the back seat, right? Is that a good time to have the, you know, you got to remove those variables so you can actually get down to the meat of the conversation.

No, that's good. I think a good place to end today is the example of what a couple did for you. I'm assuming it was an older couple.

I don't know. But you were kind of in a bad place and they must have observed it or heard something that was said and then they engaged with you. I think, you know, for those of us that are doing okay and might be able to do that, this is a great opportunity to become a mentor. In fact, we want to encourage people to mentor.

Look at your neighborhood, look at your church. And if, you know, you're a seasoned married couple and you've been through some things and know some things, it's a great thing to do. But what happened in your case? So this was actually in the section of the book that talks about see-through community, see-through friendships. And so we talked about one-on-one friendship, but then we talked about community. That can be dangerous. Right. And then we talked about Christian community, specifically with other Christians, not just good friends.

Like we can have friends who aren't Christians, but Christian community is meant to fill a specific role in the life of a Christian. And for us, this was a couple that they're actually younger than us by about three, four years. And we had been having, I don't know, a rough month, I'll say, an ongoing kind of, and we didn't even bring it to them, but they saw it. And they said, hey, you guys want to come over for lunch after church or whatever? And we're like, sure, total sabotage, right? Like they said, no, they were really kind in it. And they sat us down and said, hey, we're seeing this in you guys, do you mind, can we talk about it? And they were just, I think it was a light bulb moment for us, because we realized without them, without Christian community, we would have never seen this. We would have never, I would have never been humbled, specifically Ryan.

I was humbled to see her in a different way. It would have taken longer. That's true. That's probably more accurate. Did you welcome that intervention?

Yeah. I mean, they laid it out saying, you know, sometimes it's easier to go and eat with someone and talk about something because you are more reserved and conscious of how you speak to your spouse and what you're going to reveal about the problems and conflicts you're dealing with. So, yes, I was very grateful for that intervention, very grateful for that involvement. Well, it's a good reminder of how critical relationships are beyond your marriage. I mean, that is the number one relationship beyond your relationship with God is your relationship with your spouse. And you've done a wonderful job in see through marriage.

You could put any word in there, right? See through friendship. It does fit in how do you become more transparent, more vulnerable, and in doing so, how God uses that to strengthen the tether between you.

That's the irony. And we all need to trust more in God's approach that way. And the fact that as we share that, particularly with our spouse, how it strengthens our relationship. And, you know, I'll speak to the guys. You got to open up.

You got to do that. Do this because your wife in your spiritual leadership, it really sets the tone. And I can tell you, I don't always do a good job of that.

I'm trying and I'm trying to be mindful of it, but you have to think about it and don't shrug it off. And this is a great book to begin that dialogue. If you've not been in that place in your relationship, see through marriage is a great tool for you and we want to make it available to you. So if you can, you know, make a donation of any amount and we'll get it to you is our way of saying thank you. If you can't afford it, we believe in the content so much. We want to help your marriage. And we believe there are supporters that will take care of the cost of putting this resource into your hands. Yeah, donate and get your copy of See Through Marriage when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, or just look for the link in the episode notes. And we also have a free marriage assessment. I think well over a million people have taken this now.

It's very quick. It gives you an overview of what's working well in your marriage and maybe an area or two that you can really work on. And again, this assessment is free and the link is in the episode notes. Ryan and Selena, great conversation. And again, I so appreciate your transparency that helps the rest of us become more transparent. Thanks for being with us. And on behalf of Jim Daly and the rest of the team here, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.