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August 5, 2020 2:00 am
Exploring the question "What makes us equal?" pro-life advocate Scott Klusendorf makes the case that all human beings are of immeasurable worth, including the preborn. He equips listeners to be effective, respectful, and compassionate in speaking up for those who do not have a voice. (Part 2 of 2)
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Hi this is Jim Daly with Focus on the Family if we've learned anything during these turbulent times. It's that all human life has intrinsic value worthy of love, care and protection that includes life in the womb. That's why at this pivotal time we are standing up to help the world see life. Join the movement to end abortion and love every heart text heartbeat 72,000 heartbeat to 72,000. Welcome to another special edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly I'm John Fuller and our guest today is Scott close and he's back, making a persuasive argument on behalf of born babies that every life is valuable, then I say can I repeat back what you just said to me you personally oppose abortion because you say it kills a baby but you think it should be legal to kill babies and there's usually dead silence for several seconds. While that sinks we have a really powerful conversation with Scott as we return to an event recorded in Chicago Illinois last year with a live body John we saw a lot of support for pre-born babies and their moms and dads in Chicago that night. That was really encouraging to see the audience galvanize around the pro-life message.
Our focus is committed to protecting and uplifting pre-born babies and their families. That's part of our mission every day through option ultrasound which provides training and ultrasound equipment for pregnancy clinics around the country at to date, 459,000 babies have been saved through those efforts and we'd like to see a million or more babies saved and were building for that through an event this fall on September 26 were having a big online event called sea life 2020 with great speakers and music and a live 40 ultrasound it's going to be a wonderful event and it's online you can see details in the episode and Scott closing Dorf is the founder and president of life training Institute. He wrote the book the case for life. He calls himself a pro-life apologist and he's trained thousands of people to engage in compelling conversations on behalf of pre-born babies and by the way, I should note, if you have young children around you may want to consider having them elsewhere, is to talk about some sensitive issues today.
Last time we ended with Scott talking about the great work. The pregnancy resource centers are doing in contrast to Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers in case you missed it when a rollback to hear a story from Scott as we begin I did up a banquet of the pregnancy center last night in Madison, Wisconsin. The top floor of the pregnancy center is a live in apartment where they house up to 24 mothers with children that the middle floor of the. The center is a medical clinic where they treat STDs.
They provide prenatal care, all of it.
The bottom level is this gargantuan boutique where they supply the pregnant woman with everything she might need to get through that pregnancy don't tell me we don't care when pregnancy centers outnumber abortion clinics something like three to one in this country. Yes, we do care and we are demonstrating and not only that, but Planned Parenthood is taking our tax money 500 million a year, and these clinics are forbidden from getting government money well because of the faith component that's correct, you know who's funding pregnancy centers are audience here tonight at a whole lot of Americans should make a huge statement.
That's right that's right it's so good. Sky would never go back to something you said because I think a casual listener might have been a little thrown off. You said Planned Parenthood offers a 15 minute solution right. The truth is, it's not a solution if it takes a lot more of a woman's life than 15 minutes. Well what they're offering is an apparent solution they are offering the deception here is they are selling her and an apparent fix in 15 minutes and were offering her the choice to walk 18 years through a lot of struggle and that's it's a lot. You're correct because abortion doesn't just happen and then go away 15 minutes later, there is a price tag without abortion yes got unmindful of the audience both here live in the radio audience in the podcast audience that will be listening to this and there are women who made that decision are men that plagiarize well obviously as we tend to always point out, this was a woman's decision, but men often are the ones forcing their girlfriend or their wife to get that abortion, so I want to make sure we make that statement and certainly if someone's in that spot, and you maybe have not grieved that decision were here for you. We have here in Christian counselors at Focus on the Family Hollis. I think what I'm upset about is the lie I'm not upset at the woman right or the man, but I want them to be informed.
I also want them to find forgiveness in Christ as a Christian, I mean they were all sinners saved by grace that may not have happened in our story, but there are other things that happened in our story right absolutely and you just hit on the key foundational fix for someone who is had an abortion. It is the gospel and the gospel says every one of us in this room has rebelled against our maker, but God sent a substitute to stand in our place condemned bearing the judgment we deserve.
So we could be adopted is dearly loved children into God's family, and that's the message of hope for postabortion men and women yeah let me take you back a little bit to equip the listeners in some of these arguments that they're going to encounter. So the proper tissue argument. That's the common one come at me. Help me in the dialogue.
So if I were a pro-abortion person and I'm arguing with you. There's no consciousness there that this is you know this is a handful of cells. Scott it is that dot on the paper seriously come on and look at all the pain that that woman is going to encounter.
She's got she's she's not even married. She 17. I mean, this is going to put her through horrible heart wrenching issues and to be that pregnant woman on campus that girl on campus.
Think of the shame she's gonna feel right. This is wrong. It's so much easier just to take her to the clinic yet forgiving if five things right. A writer would go for. Let's take the first one you brought up self-awareness or consciousness. The first thing we should do as pro-lifers is very graciously say tell me why I have to be conscious or self-aware not to be killed.
Why is self-awareness decisive and not say having a bellybutton points out, rather than in make them argue for that make them tell you what. If I claim Jim that there's a pink elephant dancing above your head right now.
Half the audience just looked.
I don't I bear the burden of proof, not you. I made the claim, so make them defend that claim.
Secondly, point out that it erodes human equality.
Self-awareness is what gives me my value and not my human nature than those with more self-awareness have a greater right to life than those with less and you can toss human equality on the ash heap of history, but it also disqualifies newborns newborns are not self-aware until several weeks after birth. This is why Peter Singer says if were going to be consistent. We've gotta say that if abortion is justified because the fetus is not self-aware. So is infanticide. You can kill both now his conclusion is horrific, but his logic is consistent and then finally, I would point out to this person that think of all the things that follow from defining somebody out of existence, because they're not self-aware. What if we altered the brain of the developing embryo, so it never was self-aware and then killed the child at age 5D uses body parts for medical experiments. Most people would find that horrific but if it's your self-awareness that gives you value and not our common humanity.
Why not do that so these are some things you can point out when people bring up things like self-awareness out some of the public space and I won't name names, but can fill in the blank have said well I think a baby's life starts with breath right now with heartbeat, not with the conscience, not with the bullying activity and they often cite the Bible to justify that right.
So really it's breath. It's not.
Those are the things that are intrinsically human. It doesn't matter until the rest and some will even apply that to Scripture right that is is God breathed and you still a baby takes its breath. It's not really humoral. Here's my answer to that every human being that God creates directly out of mud is not a living soul until God breathes into their lungs. I agree now were you created directly out of mud. If not, then that means there's another way you came into being. God has ways of doing that than just what he did in Genesis 1 and we know from the science of embryology. You came to be at the moment of fertilization.
Another cultural irony is the fact that abortion tends to hurt minority children and female babies mean gender selection. If you look at the beginning of Planned Parenthood and they run from this now, but Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist sheet she believe I did that minority children should be eliminated because they would put too much pressure on welfare systems is that not true.
That is true they get away from that.
Now they do and I'm actually going to say something here that might surprise few people.
It's okay to bring that point up, but it's our second argument, not our first argument and why abortion is not wrong because of how Planned Parenthood got started late because of margaret sanger being a eugenicist. though she was abortion is wrong because it intentionally kills an innocent human being and we always want to begin our case by keeping the main right main thing but you are absolutely correct.
after you've made that case, there's nothing wrong with saying. have you considered the implications of your worldview it allows for treating minorities as property.
in fact, that's the history of planned parenthood so we can do that but we just want to do it in the right and i appreciate that. that's a good point. also winning it comes to the female baby by me when they talk about a woman's right.
yeah, what about that conflict. yeah well it the reason why there's no conflict in their mind they assume the unborn are not human. it would be like me saying to you, jim, have you quit cheating on your taxes yet and you say to me when i cheat on my taxes will that's not what i asked you.
have you stopped will that would be an unfair question because i'm assuming what i'm trying to prove when they make these kinds of arguments based on choice privacy, trusting women don't force your morality on me, they never make those arguments if we were talking about killing two-year-old state only make them when we talk about the unborn.
why because they assume the unborn are not human.
and you know what our job is his pro-life apologist to flush that assumption out of the open and say something very gentle like can i make an observation. i noticed your assuming something about the unborn. you would never assume about the two-year-old and bring it back to the question, what is the unborn and start there with the discussion that's good. let me ask you this to if a woman says. i personally am not just a woman anybody.
politicians do this all the time.
i personally opposed to abortion right. i don't want to know get in the way of a woman's right to choose will imagine the sounds very eloquent. does imagine me saying i personally oppose spousal abuse, but you can do with your spouse whatever you want in the privacy of the bedroom and the law should not interfere or i personally oppose owning a slave, but if you want one. the law shouldn't tell you you can't, we would find that so when people say to me. i personally oppose abortion, but i wanted to remain legal. the first question out of my mouth is. why do you personally oppose it and inevitably they say well it's killing a baby. i mean, why else would you oppose it right.
i mean nobody opposes pulling a tooth, then i say can i repeat back what you just said to me you personally oppose abortion because you say it kills a baby but you think it should be legal to kill babies and there's usually dead silence for several seconds. while that sinks and yeah there's no way out.
it's a dead end. logically, yeah, yeah, that's what so good it makes them think they may have jesus often did that. he asked questions that may be bright like yeah and that's what we all need to do.
learning to ask good questions will get you out of the hot seat when somebody drills she was something and said how can you say that a fetus has right to life when it's not even self-aware. how can you say that fetus should have rights when it had doesn't have consciousness simply smile and say why does consciousness matter in the first place and ask a good question. you don't need to get defensive.
scott lemanski why do why you say the pro-life view is no more religious than the pro-abortion view those in the faith community.
why yeah yeah will first of all, arguments are true or false, valid or invalid calling an argument religious is an attempt to dodge your responsibility to answer it by calling it a name, but that won't work you got answered the pro-life argument. you can't just dismiss it with a label.
the other reason why it's no more religious both sides in the abortion debate are answering the same fundamental question who counts as one of us the pro-choice or pro-abortion worldview says you don't count until you can function at a certain level.
when you have self-awareness or viability or the ability to feel pain.
the pro-life worldview says no you count as soon as you began to exist. you have a natural right to life, noticed that both positions are answering a fundamentally religious question who counts as one of us. if the pro-life view is disqualified for its alleged appeal to religion so is the pro-abortion view because were both haggling over that same question who counts as one of us. let's answer that question and not try to pick one side out by calling on the name that's good. i appreciate that a 1963 planned parenthood brochure acknowledged that pre-born babies in our human i've never heard this.
yes the first time i saw this, the women involved in roe v wade endo versus bolton.
those two cases led to legalized abortion, obviously they became outspoken for the pro-life cause. do you think abortion proponents that no deep inside that were talking about human lives.
it's hard to argue they don't but boy they sure work hard suppressing it.
you brought up that planned parenthood is an amazing 63 and the wording on that says this abortion will kill the life of your baby after it's begun and is dangerous to your life and health. that's the exact wording of that that brochure that mesmerizing segment he actually got a copy of it at home that a friend of mine suggested right around the time i was born right right and not long after that a journal article in california medicine said the only way work ever going to get abortion to move forward in our culture as a permissible activity is to dehumanize the unborn with rhetoric that everybody knows is a lie. but if we repeated enough. they'll eventually come along. i was thought it was odd.
i was on the train at denver airport know that little shuttle train and there was. there were women on board coming from a planned parenthood convention. i believe because they had t-shirts and things like that and this one woman had a badge but her t-shirt. she obviously was pregnant and her t-shirt said it's a baby i thought isn't as this woman coming from a plant is as one of those t-shirts.
it's a baby, but i am what amazing contradiction. it is put jim to millions of our fellow citizens. a child in the womb has rights if and only if his mother wants him yeah the homeless or unwanted can we kill them. i mean, what a flimsy defense but millions of our fellow citizens have bought this which means you and i have to know how to step up and engage and that means everybody listening to us right now nobody is exempt from this that we are all pro-life apologists now scott, i have tried to reach out to communicate with those in the abortion industry into their credit. i have met with a handful people. one woman really impressed me. she came ready to debate ready to argue and i remember i had the data 347,000 abortions by planned parenthood.
the previous year. guttmacher institute keeps that hedda but they only placed 917 children for adoption. so i just said your why what's happening and she looked at me and this was a very honest statement.
she said it's the money.
this is a woman with planned parenthood.
and i said, i appreciate that honesty.
so why can't we incentivize you somehow to do more adoption placement and she said because we makes zero today on adoption placement at planned parenthood is that amazing or cannot, as they were paid twice as much $1200 for an adoption placement could literally change the equation because it's all about cash for their seemingly would they be able to do that why i don't know but i want to point out something you said a moment ago that i think all of our listeners need to hear you went out of your way to try to make friends with people on the other side of the issue and for some listening to us today they might think that's very odd.
i am very good friends with nadine straws in the former president of the aclu. we we debated secular universities all the time and yet were friends will have dinner before the event and she is a friend she's wrong.
she's a friend that's so true that's right.
and here's the thing that keeps me grounded from getting angry. nadine is no more lost in her sins than i was in mind before god found me. that's true, and so i engage. although i customer in a debate is the audience more than nadine. she does me a favor. she draws a crowd and i get to talk to them. you got to meet a friend and give her something to think about. you put that pebble in her shoe and that's what we need to do as christians.
well i so appreciate that. but that should be the common standard in the nutrition you're right, there was another woman. i met with and she came in my office shaking. she was visibly shaking and i said are you okay she said well my friend said you're gonna put up the do hex on me and i laughed and she didn't laugh.
i said what what do you know that christianity and she said all that i know is you want to kill us and i said i know no one.
i seriously do not know a single person who wants to harm you, and i said is anybody ever talked to about who jesus is and what are the claims of the church and she said no and i said, can i take a few minutes and do that. she said i would appreciate that because no one's ever explained to me is not amazing that amazing. we tend to assume and in this particular case it was amazing that what god did, because there's much more to the story for the naysayer.
this should quicken your speech at this point because this woman left my office. went home, her husband of 27 years left her a note saying i'm leaving you and she called focus on the family for help medicine as a woman in the abortion answer industry and we helped her in various ways and she sent me a note.
there was one woman on our staff. kelly resided in this woman sent me a note saying i've never met a human being or seen a human being love another human being. the way kelly has left me is that all sounds awesome and i think at some point she's coming to christ you know if i can if i may have hijacked do it.
there's an important thing we need to consider here about our pastors. a lot of our pastors with good intentions are worried that if they talk about abortion.
they're going to drive people away from the gospel or the lay a guilt trip on women or men who may have been involved with abortion, and here's what i always say to them i say very gently pastor if we don't deal with this issue were not going to spare people guilt were going to spare them healing, because unconfessed sin has them out a full fellowship with jesus and the kindest thing we can do is take a difficult issue like abortion tell the truth about it and then point people to the solution that can fix their brokenness with and that having christ. that's the secret.
all of us are sinners saved by grace scott. i want to mention this. we did something a few years ago called the family project that it was a great film but it it highlighted one woman who was from the feminist movement, probably in the 60s and 70s and she is now older but she said you know, one of things that we were seeking in the feminist movement in the 60s and 70s was empowerment and equality in what abortion gave us was abandonment. how was a powerful statement very powerful. in fact if you look at survey data of major driving force for women choosing abortion is the men in their lives abandon them.
so what happens not just at the societal level but also at the personal level and ii just think it it detaches responsibility right so men are freer. they thought they were getting something more women but they got lastly after bernard nathanson in his book aborting america, the former abortionist who became pro-life says in that book that they sold their idea of abortion to feminists on grounds that it would be freedom for women, but they knew in their heart of hearts. they were winning freedom for men to behave any way they want with no responsibility and male lawyers from the aclu with a driving force to convince feminists that this was good for them. is this crazy everybody and it's crazy scott, a great place to land is what is encouraging you when you look at the landscape is abortion battle. i'll tell you what encourages me. the other side is trembling that they are seeing pro-lifers make very sophisticated arguments. they are not prepared to defend francis kissling of catholics for free choice and kate michelman, former head of the national abortion rights action league road and los angeles times op-ed piece where they looked at the march for life saw all the students and said there so young and they're so smart and kissling said the pro-life movement is doing two things right now that are really causing us fits number one there advancing arguments at a very sophisticated intellectual level that we are not engaging and secondly there dramatizing abortion. they're showing it for what it is and both these things are very hurtful to our cause.
and i'm here to tell you i am seeing a new generation of pro-life apologists emerge.
they are young, they are smart and they are ready to engage and it is fun to watch. i'm worried they're going to push me the old guy off the sale soon and when they do all shout hallelujah to john scott visited awesome. thank you semi-dinner the great thoughts on this very difficult subject think it was great to be here. thank you. what time he had convalesced appreciate scott. he is not afraid to tackle the tough issues and questions about life. he is inspiring and encouraging is a gifted speaker, writer, and guess that he makes such a strong case to defend babies in the womb, and he does it with such truth and clarity. i hope this has motivated you to help focus save babies through option ultrasound. please consider making a monthly pledge to support the effort and every $60 saves a baby's life and i've said it. we been added 15 years.
we know the metrics on this if you aren't able to provide monthly support. consider a one-time donation for $60 to save that baby's life in the you know you may not know who that baby is until we get to heaven.
it all rolls up to working on behalf of the kingdom of god to preserve life and i do hope you be able to join us in this effort, and for gift of any amount to focus on the family today say thanks for joining the support team by sending a copy of scott closing doors book the case for life donate today say the baby's life and get that book, you'll see the links for all of this and more in the episode notes and also we want to invite you to join us for see like 2020. this fall, september 26 i will have a compelling pro-life event online with dynamic christian speakers and great music from award-winning artists. in the event will culminate with a 4d ultrasound so you can clearly see life in the womb again.
at september 26 for see life 2020.
join the movement and help us to educate and motivate folks to defend pre-born babies all the details about sea life 2020 at our website and again while you're there.
thanks for saving a baby's life through your gift of $60, and again we get the link in the episode next time.
dr. kathy cook joins us for an encouraging conversation about children and intelligence kids need to know they're smart or they're never going to feel as good about themselves and then they lower their expectations for their tomorrows they don't achieve may be as much as they could have a behalf of jim daly and all of us here at focus on the family. thanks for listening today i'm john fuller inviting back as we once more help you and Your Family Dr. in Christ