Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup, but when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally.
So I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts. The Bible keeps pushing us toward these pursuits that are towards service that have eternal impact, not toward our self-centeredness and not toward just making an impression in this world, which you know is like a vapor. That's Pastor Gary Thomas sharing biblical wisdom for living a fulfilling life, and he's back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller, and I've been so challenged by what Gary has shared so far because these lies that he's talking about are things all of us have struggled with.
Yesterday, we talked about several of the lies in Gary's book, including the lie that you need to be comfortable.
So, get the focus on the family app to listen to that full episode. And we're here to help you not just survive, but to thrive in Christ. I love that tagline. It's on purpose. We are going to be covering some of the barriers that might be in your way to the abundant life that Christ provides.
So stick with us. This is going to be good content. Yeah, Gary is an excellent writer and communicator. He's got a number of books on topics related to marriage and spiritual growth. He's currently on the pastoral teaching team up the road a bit in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, at Cherry Hills Community Church.
Now, today we're going to be discussing his book, "The Life You Were." Reborn to live, and we've got details on our website. Gary, welcome back. It's so good to have you. And man, we covered some things yesterday that were really tender. And we're all kind of shackled by things in this life.
You know, I'm so grateful that Paul said I see through the glass dimly, right? But especially in this area of adversity, and I, I think in the West, particularly here in the U.S., man, we we see ourselves as blessed when we're on. Top of it all, yet the scripture, that great scripture, that says, "He's close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit." Almost like a prerequisite that the Holy Spirit is seeking, because it's humility. That's what that is. When you're crushed in spirit, you're humble.
You're not thinking you're the best. But as a competitor, as a guy that enjoyed winning when I played football and you know just being on top of it, I I struggle with this. When this is one where You know, I'm asking myself that self-centered salvation. That's not the spirit of God, is it? It's.
I don't know who said it because I've heard many people say it, but it's true. Before God can use you, He must. Break you, yeah. I've heard major pastors say that. I've heard that, and it it gets back to my mentor, Jay Packer.
Had this thing I love because he challenges self centered salvation and our addiction to comfort. With this, he says it's a mistake to imagine that the good for which God works is our unbroken ease and comfort. I thought that God's goal is rather our sanctification and Christlikeness, the true holiness that is the highway. To happiness, and so before God can use us, He often has to break us. I I tell in the book the story of um, I came down with keratoconus.
It's a degenerative eye disease where you have a misshapen cornea, and when I was first diagnosed, there really wasn't any way that they could treat it except for replacing the cornea. It it didn't freak me out so much because when He saw how bad my eyesight is, it's like 2400, which 2500 is the worst.
So you're right. On the edge for an award, but he said, "Well, it could be a brain tumor. It could be this or that." And then they came back. It's keratoconus, and they gave me pamphlets.
Well, here's a support group for it. I said, "I don't need a support group." I thought you told me I might have a brain tumor. I can live with one eye, and I kind of do. My brain doesn't use my other eye, but because I've lived with this, and it's just the main problem. John, you're active.
When I'm riding a bike, it's a real pain because it's my left eye. I can't see.
Well, well, you. You shoot, but you shoot with one eye, right? You can get those animals down with one eye. I have a balance issue, so I'm totally tracking with you. Yeah, and so it's it's it's hard for me on the bike.
It scares my wife, but I I still love to ride. But when my daughter in her early 30s came down with that, immediately we were on it. You got to get checked out. And yeah, she was diagnosed with it, and they're able to treat it.
So she was ahead of the curve because of you. Because I had cared to Cona, she's never going to have to live. Wow! And if you're asked me as a dad, do you want to live with this so that your daughter doesn't? I mean, what dad would say?
Yeah, absolutely. That's it. That's exactly how Paul says ministry works. Addicts that now help other addicts, people with broken marriages that now help other people with broken marriages. We were talking about Bo Mitchell, who's been on here before.
They've had issues. You think of Chuck Colson, what he went through, how God used what people thought was either something done to them or their greatest failure. It can be both. Became a platform for. Incredible ministry for the rest.
They both went to prison. Yeah, for those that don't know. And if you're addicted to comfort, prison isn't in your plans, right? But how much God has used that to bless others, Gary? I want to take a small break in our discussion because some people listening and watching might be going, and they're just laying on the guilt right now.
I mean, who can live that way? Does God really dislike us if we? You want to have an air conditioner and a washer and dryer and a refrigerator that keeps our food cold.
So just clarify that for the critic is going. Yeah, we're not going back to the caveman days. We don't have to look for crosses. Life in this fallen world will bring them to us. The whole idea, though, is the attitude.
Because yeah, my whole passion for this book is: Will you love Jesus more when you go through this? Because you're going to go through it, and I don't want the lie that somehow God is unhappy with you because you're. Facing it, or that you should be angry with God, I share in the book a story for me. I've I've run distance running my entire life from the time I was a teenager in in high school, and yet I've had these knee issues that now have become more serious. Where I don't know if I'll ever be able to run another one again.
My orthopedic surgeon, who worked on my knee, said you probably shouldn't. You're going to cause more problems. But going through this, realizing I need adversity, I came out of it with this. Instead of being bitter, God, I can't believe you take this away. I need it for my health, for my emotional health, for my relational health, my mental health, my spiritual health.
I realize what I need most is to be close to God, not to run. And if I let the inability to run become a point of Tension between me and God, I'm still not going to be able to run. But I lose what I value most, and what I need most, what I depend upon most, and so adversity is going to come, discomfort is going to come. Don't seek it out. We're not talking about being a masochist.
I think that's that's a mental illness. That's not spiritual health. But if you accept that. We're all an unfinished product, and don't make an idol of it. Yeah, we're unfinished product.
There's a lot that God has to refine, and maybe there's a lot that God wants to do in your life. Maybe God wants to use you in ways you can't even imagine. But He's got to burn off a few things before He can put you in the game. Yeah, Gary, when you said that about your knees, the one thing I'm recovering from my second rotator cuff. That's why I'm not really moving my right arm very well here.
But when you Said that you know the that God somehow took that ability from you. I want to just for a second let's explore that because people you know God could also say to you, "Well, you put fifty years of running on those knees that weren't meant to do that," and I you know just have a little fun with that. But there are people with serious illnesses. Oh yes, they some. Will have anger toward God because if God loved me, He wouldn't do this.
Is God really the puppeteer, or is it partially the fact that we wear our bodies out? We may not eat right. We may not exercise right. We may not eat. You know, we're eating too much processed food.
You know, all those things.
So I want to be a little careful there that everything's attached to God's puppeteering. And you know, you're running a little too much, Gary. You're not spending enough time with me.
So I'm gonna boom. I'm gonna give you. Knee arthritis, so you can sit and talk with me. I don't think it's that way, but I don't know. These are you're the pastor.
Well, there are many causes. That's why I hate to answer that question with a direct yes or no. There are consequences if you drink your liver into failure. Right, that's a consequence. Right, but we've all known people who get lung cancer who have never smoked.
Yeah, so I think some of those are unanswerable questions. I don't present myself as a Bible answer man as a pastor. I'm trying to help people process it that we have to surrender because even if God didn't cause it, and I'm not saying He does, you're saying, "Well, God could heal it. He's healed this person and that person. He hasn't healed me." Yeah.
And when I look historically at how awful life was for the saints that preceded us, you know, giants of the faith, Charles Spurgeon, who lived with depression for his entire career, the Apostle Paul, who lived with a thorn in his flesh.
Now some people would say that wasn't physical, but he lived with something in his life that was at least uncomfortable. He said, "God, please take it away," and God said, "No, I'm not going to do that." God used Paul literally to perform miracles for others, but He didn't give Paul the miracle to release that discomfort. And so, great reminder. I just come to the point that my attitude is to surrender. People want to get into a great classic on this, Thomas Brooks, "Mute Christian Under the Smart." Rod is one of the great Christian classics on how we will learn most when we're quiet in our suffering and try to learn the lessons instead of just chitter chattering.
God, you got what a title!
Well, I mean, a friend of mine who I'm sure I've mentioned on these podcasts before. He so inspires me. He was a weightlifter. He got MS when he was first diagnosed. I mean, athleticism was his identity, and he kept saying.
God heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me. He said, "I prayed all day. Heal me, heal me, heal me, heal me," until God finally stopped him and said, "Daryl, I'm going to heal you, but I'm going to use M.S. to heal something you're not aware of, and that's your pride." Wow. Thirty years later, I'm talking to his wife.
She didn't connect these. She just said, "Gary, Daryl is the most humble man I've ever known, and God uses him in so many powerful ways." When he was athletic and charismatic, he. Commanded the room, and he thought he needed to be healed of this. And God said, "I'm going to use this that you don't like to cure this that you're not even aware of." God loves us. He wants to use us, and look.
If we could see what he's preparing for us, as Paul did, Paul got to see the third heaven, and I think that's why he was willing to endure every discomfort on the earth. He's telling, "Hey guys, just hang on for a little bit. Here's what's coming." Yeah. If we could see that, we wouldn't complain about a hot or cold shower. Or and I'm not look.
I'm not diminishing the pain of going through real physical. Travails. I've got some of my closest friends. Real physical travail right now, but I still think what Paul says it pales in comparison. If we could see the glory that's ahead of us, our complaints would cease, and we would serve and surrender.
You write also in the book about, and these are your words, but. Rejecting earthly splendor, and you know we're in that orbit right here.
So we'll talk about that. But it's in the context of something else you said, which is to you reject earthly splendor to live a rich toward God life. Yes. Put that together for us. The world is telling us what will make you happy.
And God says, "There's something entirely different that will make you happy." And we have to completely reject being conformed to this world. That I will be happier if I look younger than I am, if I'm wealthier than I am, if I'm well known more than I am. When Scripture would say, "Actually, you'll be happier if you become a wiser person, if you become a selfless servant, if you focus on eternity over acclaim." What Matters for us in eternity is what one person thinks of us, not what a crowd thinks of us. If you're trying to please the crowd, you're always going to be susceptible to compromising your faith. But if you live a rich toward God life, there's an audience of one that you want to please.
I think the best example of that is in the Book of Acts. Months before the Apostle Paul died, he's brought in. In front of Agrippa the Second and Bernice, I love this scene. And I mean, Agrippa. Second was on the cusp of decades of influence and opulence and wealth and success.
He cozied up to the Roman powers and was just so well living a very immoral life. Bernice was not his wife; she was his sister. But they lived like husband and wife. There were lots of rumors, but people afraid to say anything because you could lose your head if you said anything. And so Paul's brought in months before he dies, pulled out of a prison.
His back looks like a monstrosity of scars. I'm sure he's smelly. The Pharisees are saying of Paul, he's not fit to live. And you look at that, and you'd say Agrippa wins and Paul loses. He's got all the power, all the comfort, all the wealth, all the acclaim.
Paul has nothing, and he's soon going to die. Two thousand years later, I don't think there's a day in the world where Paul isn't studied. Quoted, preached on. Think of that. Not a day.
I think you could say an hour. Everywhere, somebody's studying, reading his words. If I say in a church, Paul said, everybody knows who I'm talking about. If I go to anybody and say, "Well, Agrippa the second said," they're like, "Who? What?" You look at that scene, and it looked like Agrippa one.
He didn't. Paul one.
So it's the rich toward God. Life is is looking at. Who wins not by the world's current definition? When Jesus said, "Such it will be of everyone who does not live a life that is rich toward God." And he was talking about a person who said, "I'm going to build bigger barns, and eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we may die," and then he loses it the next night. Gary, let me pick up on the idea of pursuing wisdom, and we'll probably end here with the next couple of questions.
But pursuing Wisdom, ah, the scripture, and I know you'll quote it for us. It's one of the main things we're supposed to do: is pursue wisdom and to cherish it, to treat it better than gold or silver. And if you want to live a rich, full life, you will pursue wisdom.
Okay, with that baseline, so many things are distracting us. We've got AI coming on. Wow, if I need wisdom, I'll just go to AI, ask her what to do or him, whatever you want to call it, but. But the the point is, there's a something about the human heart. Pursuing wisdom that makes your spirit, your soul, better.
Speak to that. The Bible goes out of its way to exalt wisdom; that it's really the one race we don't want to neglect to run. Proverb sixteen sixteen says, "How much better to get wisdom than gold? To get insight rather than silver." And and Jim, how many people at the end of this year are thinking, "I'm more concerned about has my retirement?" Grown or am I wiser this year than I was last year? Ooh, that's a great comparison.
And we talk about why the church was in the shape it was. Hosea four six tells us, "My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge; that it's because we don't value wisdom." And so we're on these. I think these vain pursuits. I keep talking about it, but the world thinks. I'm going to have a more successful life is more important to look younger than I am, rather than to focus on becoming wiser than I am.
Eventually, that's a losing battle. Your knees are going to tell the true story. Eventually, you can do a lot of things to your face, but eventually, people are going to realize this person isn't in their twenties anymore. But if women would say, "Look, what if you could give," A wiser mom or grandmother or wife or sister or friend to the church than a woman that looks younger than she really is, and what is a better gift you can give to the world? Because if I'm trying to look younger, I'm trying to impress people.
If I'm trying to become wiser, I want to be a resource to people. What makes more spiritual sense? And the same thing with wealth. Why do I want more wealth so that I can feel comfortable, so that I can spend it on myself, or do I want to have wisdom? A spiritual wealth that is there only to give away, and and so the Bible keeps pushing us toward these pursuits that are towards service that have eternal impact, not toward our self centeredness and not toward just making an impression in this world, which you know is like a vapor.
You know, one thing, Gary, we often will. Say this very quickly. You know, I'd like to read the Christian classics. I'd like to be informed, but you know, it's a load. I've got work.
But what you encourage people do is take that inventory. How much time are you on social media? How much time are you watching sports? Ouch! You know those things that we're replacing the pursuit of wisdom with.
And I, you know, yeah, that's another cold slap of reality. To Say that's not a good enough reason to say I'm too busy. Really, I my catchphrase is try to read more than you watch. And when I say this, let me—I know we talked to a lot of moms here too. Moms, if you're raising kids, screen time literally makes us more stupid.
There was a 2015 study published in the journal Cerebral Cortex. I know you all probably get that at home. You might have missed this issue. Get it weekly. It shows that watching too much TV.
Or screen time actually alters the composition of the human brain. It lowers IQ. It frustrates our kids' language acquisition. It increases psychological difficulties. They have a more difficult time facing stress, greater anxiety, more depression.
It reduces their attention, and it reduces their ability to manage anger. Whereas reading strengthens the neural pathways. And so, if you can encourage your kids. To read more than they watch, you're building up their brain, yeah. Rather than diminishing it, you're helping them become who God created them to be, and who the world doesn't want them to be.
I got to tell you this: the world doesn't want intelligent, thoughtful, logical Christians like Dorothy Sayers and and C.S. Lewis, those that could just Unlock the wisdom of heaven. They want people who are focused on being entertained and put into a canonic state, so they just go along and they're good little citizens of the world, rather than powerful servants of the kingdom of God. That's a great statement. I think we have sufficiently well.
Let me be personal. You have sufficiently slapped me upside the head, and I'm sure people watching and listening feel the same way in a good way. You know, it's kind of like a good football coach. It's going Motivates you to play better by riding you a little bit, right? Because he knows that response mechanism, your competitiveness, and as Paul writes about that, run the race to win it.
Yes. And so, in this context, the practical things that we can do, and I'm giving you the moaning and the complaining.
So set it up. We're in a counseling session. You're saying this guy needs more wisdom, and I say.
Well, Gary, I'd like to, but I'm just too busy. Give me two or three practical things that you would counsel as a pastor, that man or woman in front of you that gives you the excuses, and how you would say, "Here's two things I'd like you to try." Okay. It begins with valuing wisdom. You won't make the sacrifices. the The proverb writer says, "Though it costs all you have, get understanding." So, proverb says, "There's a cost.
It's going to cost you some entertainment, some screen time, some comfort, but if you value it, you're going to pursue it." If I could tell a story about my son, he got two master degrees at Harvard, which is significant because they get all of the great titans of industry, the the people. People who write literature. Actors, Hollywood moguls, you name it, come. They all want to give a lecture there at at Harvard, and I saw Graham because he was doing two masters there during a vacation. One was an MBA, and one was public policy with the Kennedy School.
And he was reading this very long book that didn't I couldn't see how it could fit in with the MBA or the public policy program. I said, "What's up with this?" He said, "Well, I've noticed something that's in common with all of the super successful people who lecture at Harvard." I said, "What's that?" They watch little television and they read a lot of books, and I felt like if I want to make the most of my life, I should probably do the same thing.
So, first, value wisdom. Second, I think it's amazing how much you can read. If you will devote the time for me, it's in the morning. I'm reading from three sources in the morning. I'm reading from Scripture.
I read from a Christian classic. I read from a contemporary book. I like to read good novels because I think it increases my EQ, emotional intelligence. I'm a guy; it helps me become more aware of that. I'm reading books as I'm I'm studying and whatnot.
But so history, biography, good novels, theology. I think every Christian should be studying one good. Doctrine a year. This last 2025 was a 1700th anniversary of the Nicene Creed.
So I read a couple books on the Nicene Creed and the Trinity. That will make your brain spin a little bit trying to figure that out. But if you just do that a year, this year I'm going to read on the Atonement. Maybe I'll read on the Ascension. Maybe I'll read on doctrines of grace.
You know, just every year you decide you're going to have one thing, and if if you just set aside that time. Almost all of us have the time. When you look at the average screen time now, can be eight to nine hours a day. Yeah, wow. Nobody's going to be reading eight or nine hours a day.
So let me just be honest.
So can you take one of those hours and watch screens for seven hours a day? And it doesn't have to be just reading. My wife will stress this. Good podcasts, like focus on the family. I mean, there's wisdom that you can get just as you're driving down the road.
You don't have to be reading a book. Podcasts. There are lectures. I think most of us need more than one sermon a week. Modern church life is such that we want a thirty thirty five minute sermon once a week.
In other ages of the church, they would put up with two hour sermons, and then they'd have one Sunday night and one Wednesday.
Well, with what we have available online, you can get some of the best preaching in the world on a regular basis.
Well, there's the challenge, and we need to aim for that. Try it. I mean, if you're spending that kind of time on social media, cut the eighth of it out and see if you can do better. Just taking that time to do some reading, Gary, a wonderful discussion these past two days about how to get on track to make the kingdom of heaven come to this earth through your efforts in Christ. I mean, there's so many things I can't even recap it all.
In terms of conforming to the word, not the word conforming to you. We've covered all those things, and let me just say a simple thank you for the hard work you put into the book to remind us what it means to be Christian and to take it more seriously. I appreciate it. No, thank you. These truths have changed my life.
I. Have much less success trying to lose the same twenty pounds I've been trying to lose for the last five years since I haven't been able to run. But I feel like I lose a lot of spiritual weight when I get rid of the lies that I've heard in this world that nobody questions. Going to Scripture and seeing the truth, it's like taking a spiritual bath. That's it.
It is the life we were reborn to live. There's no better life to live.
Well, it's so true, Gary. And you know, the Scripture it is the mirror of truth. It looks right in our hearts and says, you know what it is. It sees in us, right, and it's that's part of it. Let me turn to the listener and just ask you to get in touch with us if you're struggling with some of these lies and could use some extra support to know, like Gary said, what is true.
We have a team of caring Christian counselors available for consultations, completely free. You can sign up at our website. Another next step is to get a Copy of Gary's great book. It's one of the best resources out there for growing in your walk with the Lord. When you make a gift of any amount to focus on the family, we'll send you a copy of Gary's book to say thank you for partnering with us in doing ministry.
And together, you get a great resource and focus can help more people because of your financial help. We provide biblical resources to support families. That's what we're here to do. But we can't do it without. Donations from listeners like you.
So much of what you hear in the media is so negative, and we want to reach more people with the hope that only Christ can offer. We had one listener share this with us. I always look to focus on the family with Jim Daly to find positivity. There are some dark places on the internet. Thank the Lord, there is a voice in the wilderness.
That is so good, and that is a great place to stand for people. That voice in the wilderness calling out. We want to say thank you to those of you who do partner with us, so we can be that voice for so many listeners. If you haven't made a donation before, join with us, and together we'll provide support for even more families. Yeah, make your contribution today.
Request your copy of the book, "The Life You Were Reborn to Live," and to connect with one of our caring Christian counselors, when you call eight hundred the letter A in the word. Or all the details are in the show notes. And thanks so much for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup, but when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours?
That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally.
So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.
