I just am really thankful for Focus on the Family because it means so much to me. That's just one of the millions of people who've been blessed by Focus on the Family as we celebrate 50 years of ministry next year. And as part of the celebration, we want to hear your story. Call today and share your touching or humorous story about how God has used Focus on the Family in your life. The link is in the show notes.
And so, this self-centered gospel that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live, and we miss out on the glory of living a selfless life.
Well, what are some of the lies that rob you from intimacy with God? That's what we're going to explore today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us, and I'm John Fuller. John, I think we all kind of glom onto different lies. There's obvious ones.
I was looking at old advertisements not long ago. Doctors or actors playing doctors in white medical gear, smoking cigarettes from the fifties, saying smoking is healthy for you. That was kind of an obvious lie. Maybe they didn't have the data at the time, but the data certainly caught up to them that it's not healthy. And there is examples like that just in the natural course of life.
But then there is spiritual lies that really can can catch us. And man, we have to be in the Word, know the Word, and be attuned to. Identifying what those lies are that the culture throws at us, that Christian culture can throw at us, and how to discern those things. And I'm so glad to have Gary Thomas back. And we covered eight of the twelve things that Gary was elaborating in his book, "The Life You Were Reborn to Live." And we again covered eight of those things.
For example, pursuit of peace and attempts to control everything. Is anybody leaning into that? Maybe living a life of adventure as Christians, which is a great goal. See this life as an adventure. And today we're going to cover more from that book, and I'm looking forward to it.
Yeah, and the previous conversation with Gary Thomas is on our website. It's available via the app, and we'll link to it in the show notes. Yeah, Gary is such a beloved guest here. Our audience always responds. He's a great friend.
He's an excellent writer and speaker. He's written numerous books on topics. Related to marriage and spiritual growth, and he's currently on the pastoral teaching team at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. And as you said, Jim, the book "The Life You Were Reborn to Live: Dismantling Twelve Lies That Rob Your Intimacy with God." It's available here at the ministry. Gary, welcome back to Focus on the Family.
So good to have you here in Colorado. Thank you for having me again. It's good. Hey, let's get into. There's so many good aspects to this book.
This is kind of a handbook for how Christians need to be in the Word and behave, and that's what I love about this. I'd put this under the category of discipleship. Let's get serious about our faith. Romans 12:2 tells us, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." And we know that even if we do nothing, we're still conforming to something. This is one of the things that drives me nuts with contemporary Christian culture.
I mean, I, you know, it's really dangerous to try to figure out if somebody's truly saved. Man, that's between them and God. You want to nurture someone's relationship with the Lord, but to try to play that broker, I would caution people not to do that. But encouraging people, as I would want to be encouraged. If somebody comes alongside and says, "Hey, I don't know if you're taking the word seriously, but here's the point: when Christians call themselves Christians, and they're conforming to the world." Whether there's a hell or not, whether there's you know the sexuality issue, Paul really didn't mean it in Romans that you shouldn't be attracted to the same sex, and people get irritated.
I'm like, I'm not the author of the book. I'm just a follower of the book, and I'm not even the editor. But that's the point.
Some people want to edit the book and not conform to the book. Speak to that discipline.
Well, we don't have permission to edit it. We're to be faithful and pass. Down the teaching of Jesus and his apostles, this applies to our culture. And the challenge with these lies is that they literally make us spiritually sick. Disobedience comes at a high cost.
You know, one of the things I heard growing up was that you don't want to go outside when it's cold because you'll catch a cold. That's not how you catch a cold. In fact, especially in Colorado when the sun's out, one of the healthiest things you can do is go outside in the sun. But but it's that old. Lies tell where everybody thought, oh, you'll catch a cold.
Close the door, whatnot. But now medical science tells no. It's very healthy to be outside every day and get your vitamin D.
So these spiritual lies have the same thing. If we believe them, they make us spiritually sick, even as medical lies make us physically sick. You know, I think Lee Struble would be happy with this. A former atheist journalist and came to Christ after trying to disprove to his wife that Jesus wasn't real. It's an awesome story.
Of course, he's written all the case for case for Christ and a string of other books, and Lee's a good friend. But you were in a journalism class, and you talked about in this book writing a good lead. Yes.
So, what does writing a good lead look like, read like, sound like? Yes.
Well, I was in a number of journalism classes, but I wasn't in the one where this professor gave an assignment to their students. The lead is the opening sentence, and it's so important. If anybody. Reads newspapers anymore? I don't know.
Online, you do. But the reason that the lead is so important is, is somebody going to read the second sentence? If you don't have a good lead, then they're like, "Well, this isn't relevant to me. I don't care about this. This isn't that important." So, when we're talking about what the gospel is—the message of Jesus Christ, the most important message in eternity—we have to get the lead right.
Why does it matter? What is important? What do we need to take away? If we get the lead wrong, People just aren't going to be interested. Why does this even matter?
And I think we've done that in some sense with the gospel. Sadly, and what is that statement? I, you know, I read in the book. I know it. It's a bit of a rhetorical question, but what is the lead about Christ?
About the gospel? About the good news?
Okay.
Well, here's here's what the lead isn't, and this will shock some people. But let me hear this out. What I grew up thinking the lead was this: the full gospel is this. Jesus came in the flesh, died. On the cross and rose from the dead, so that your sins could be forgiven and you could spend eternity in heaven.
And that is a good thing. Yeah, every word of that is true, but it's not the full lead. Paul gives us the full lead when he writes to Corinthians, Second Corinthians five fifteen, and he died for all. That and that word that is so important. And he died for all that those who live should no longer live for themselves.
But for him who died for them. And was raised again. We've created a lead that talks about a self-centered salvation. It's all about me and where I spend eternity. Paul taught a lead of the gospel that focuses on what is our mission on earth, what do we get done, and how we live selfless lives, giving ourselves away to change this world, to bring God's kingdom to this earth, not to just say, "Okay, I've got my salvation.
I can live a selfish life," and as long as I know I'm going to go to heaven when. I die all as well, Gary. This this item right here, this issue is so critical. I don't want to just blow by and go to the next one, because this is what's crippling the church. I believe right now is that, and and this is one of those lies we set up in the beginning that we are.
Self-centered as sinners and recognizing that, and then trying to live in that gray spot where you know you are, but it's not good enough to just sit there. You need to become something better in Christ. You don't sit there and go, "I'm a sinner. I might as well lie, cheat, and steal." That's not the gospel.
Well, it has such wide implications. Just my wife and I were talking with the wife one time. She told us she was going to divorce her husband, and she admitted, "I don't have biblical reasons. I know God isn't good with it, but I'm still going to go to heaven, right?" And that's the implications of a self-centered salvation. As long as I'm still going to go to heaven, or a couple—they're living together before they get married—it seems so old-fashioned to suggest that's an issue.
Well, look, I know God isn't good with us, but it's not going to send us to hell, right? We're forgiven in Christ, and so this self-centered gospel that we preach has huge implications for the way that people live, and we miss out on the glory of living a selfless. Life, every sin has a consequence. It robs us of joy and intimacy, spiritual power, God using us in His kingdom. It's emptying out the church, having this thing that salvation is about, having our sins forgiven, so that we could go to heaven.
When I say it's really far more about being enlisted, we're not just saved; we're enlisted, we're drafted onto God's team to play a role. And what we hear today is people saying, "Come down from that cross," just like they said to Jesus, right? If you're the Son of God, come down from that cross, because they assumed if Jesus could come down from the cross, he would. Yeah. The fact that he didn't must have been evidence that he wasn't really God.
But Jesus proved his deity by staying on the cross. It was because he was the Son of God that he stayed on the cross. It wasn't best for him, but it was essential for us. That's the gospel we need, not what's best for me. What's best for God's work?
Yeah, and you got to start there, Gary. Let me press a little bit more before we move to the next item, but. Is it simply too difficult? Is it too difficult to live the Christian life? It's kind of like this sounds petty, but it's almost like all the New Year's resolutions.
You could say, "I'm going to become a better Christian. I'm going to be better in Christ. I'm going to lose twenty pounds." I mean, and then we can't do it. It takes too much discipline to do it. We're talking about eternity.
And what the Lord requires of us, yet we have that same attitude. Like it's like losing weight.
Well, I can't really do it.
So is it is it that it's too difficult, or is it that? And you know, again, I just want to hear your thoughts on that. And if we're stuck in this specific area about conforming to Christ, to the Word, what do we do to do better? If it was, if Christianity was just about a book, it would be too difficult. But it's about a book and the Holy Spirit.
When God convicts us, He gives us the power through the Holy Spirit to do it, and we just have to call out that word. Come down from the cross. I talked to a physician, and I think a lot you could apply this if you're a high school teacher or a coach or a parent or just about anything. But she was just saying, "I don't know if I can keep doing this because she was in a situation where the medical establishment she was a part of wanted her to see two or three dozen patients a day, which. Over crazy, she had you know drug addicts that come in and present symptoms for pain, so she'll give them opioids, and they'll scream at her if she doesn't do it.
People come in self-diagnosed; they've gone on WebMD, they know what their problem is. Forget her medical education; they'll threaten her with you know one-star Yelp reviews, and and she's always just you know an enterprising lawyer away from a malpractice suit, and she. Just thought, this is so hard.
Now she fully believes this is what God created me to do. This is my ministry. It's my calling. It's my passion. But Gary, I, I don't know.
I mean, it's just so frustrating. And I was able to give her a verse that has changed my life. When Paul wrote to Timothy in Second Timothy four five, when he said, "Endure hardship. Discharge all the duties of your ministry." And Paul was telling Timothy, there will be hardship in your ministry if you're living not a self-centered salvation, but a God-honoring, surrendered salvation.
Sometimes you have to endure it, but you still discharge the duties of your ministry. There's going to be points in marriage where I'm going to say. You have to endure this hardship, but discharge the duties. You're a husband. You're a wife.
You're a parent. You're a grandparent, and it might break your heart. But the self-centered salvation doesn't have room for Second Timothy four five. And here's the thing: at the end of our life, we will look back. Every act of obedience, we will be so glad we said yes.
Every act of disobedience, we'll regret.
So, it's not easy, but because of the Holy Spirit, it's possible. That's good, Gary.
Okay, we've covered one now. We've got to fly through the three others I wanted to cover, but we've got the meaning of the gospel.
Now, from there, you also write as one of those lies. Kind of dismantling apathy towards the church. What's the heart of that message? We have such a self-centered view of attending church now. What does church give to me?
You're killing me. It's what what I can get out of it. When I read the Apostle Paul, his passion for the church, what he endured for the church, the sacrifices he made, and then today, how we have this consumer view.
Well, is I like the worship? Do I like the preaching? We have this ad. Of what can I get from the church? And Paul had this attitude of, "I will donate my blood.
I will donate my marrow for the health of the church, and this will help our marriages. When you live for the church, it gives meaning to your marriage. It will help our kids. One of the best ways to keep our kids in the faith, I believe, is to get them used by the Holy Spirit. And and God has used teenagers throughout history.
Mary was a teenager. Right. You've got France. You got Perpetua, an early martyr, and whatnot. Where instead of the kids like this, they don't like that.
It's what can you give to the church? I'm thinking, what would Paul say? Paul had two words, two sentences to describe him. I'm a servant for the church. And I work hard for the church, and regardless of what I do for a vocation, if I love Jesus, I have to love His bride.
I need to have a passion for the church. And I think the more that couples, married couples, and grandparents and kids will get a vision for the church, the healthier they'll be as Christians. It's not a self-centered faith where it's just about me and Jesus. We don't experience the fullness of life in Christ. If we're not experiencing passion for His bride, are you like my personal counselor here?
What I mean, this is so good. This is so funny because I went to a lunch with a non-believer, a very good friend of mine, who's open to the gospel. We've been having lunch together in every couple of months for. Probably twelve years, and he's a real successful businessman and all that. and And I went and had lunch, and I'm thinking on the drive to the lunch, Lord, it's going to be nice at some point when you kind of release me to just you know catch my breath and relax, maybe work on my handicap.
I mean, that's literally what I thought. I go into this lunch with this nonbeliever. He's in his 80s, still working, and he puts his you know crooked finger on the table at the restaurant and says, "Jim, I hope you're not thinking." About improving your handicap and retiring before God wants you to retire. He's the non-believer, and I'm going. That is classic.
Is that crazy? That's so crazy. I've got to ask you, Gary, when it comes to the shortcomings of us human beings, and I'm talking in the church. We're seeing a lot of, well, I say that we're seeing a number of pastors failing somehow, Christian leaders failing somehow. You know these same.
Friends, I'm talking about that are non-believers are asking me questions like, "You guys aren't really doing it that well," and I, you know, they'll even say, "It seems like you guys are hypocrites." And I'll say, "Well, you know, to a degree, we are. We're not intentionally trying to find that bad place, but it happens.
So we're not perfect people. We're trying to live it out well.
Some people fall and stumble, but more specifically for the body of believers that we're talking to today on Focus on the Family, why is this happening? Why is simply ending well-meaning? Don't have an affair. Don't steal money. And don't let your pride get in the way.
And then they pat you on the back. Go well done. Yeah. Well, I think some of it goes back to self-centered salvation. That we ministry in some places is seen as an Avenue of personal gain, whether it's acclaim, whether it's finances, whether it's a following, but I want to be very clear: I don't love the church because it's perfect.
I love the church because Christ is perfect, and the church is Christ's bride. There, there are Christians that will embarrass us. There are Christians that will frustrate us. We're called to reach out to the hurting and hurting people, hurt people, and they don't tend to be grateful. Look at how they treated Jesus.
Look at how they treated Paul. They said, "Paul, you're not that." Great of a speaker, you're not that impressive as a person. We're not even sure you're. He's a babbler. Yeah, I mean, and yet Paul said, "This is." He goes, "Now I rejoice in what I'm suffering for you." And I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.
Paul is suffering for a church, many of which he had never met him. He says, "I'm rejoicing because I'm suffering for you, but it's building up Christ's body, the church." And so I think it's we got to have a passion for Jesus, not just a passion for ministry work, because that's not going to fill our souls. It is a passion for Jesus, and I think really one of the things that we lack where we fall into sin is an awe of God. We're looking at ministry, not at we're just passionate about our love for Jesus, wanting to lift up His name. Gary, let me ask you this: it's a sensitive question, but it's a good one.
I think you know.
So often in the church, we're trying to put the best foot forward. We feel comfortable that way. How you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. All that.
What if we had more authenticity in the church? And I'm thinking of guys particularly. You look at some of the Barna data and other research data on porn addiction. It's in the church, everybody. I mean, I've seen data as high as 68 of men in the church are looking at porn at least once a month, and at 28 of women in the church.
So when we see that kind of honesty. In a anonymous research project, wouldn't it be great if we could have that honesty in the church itself? When we're going and we're saying, "Man, I'm struggling in this area," and rather than getting condemnation, saying, "Okay, let's get help. What do we need to do? What's your accountability?
Put structures in place," wouldn't that be the healthier way to go? Oh, and then why don't we do it that way? I talked to a man who struggled with a sexual addiction, and what he said. Broke my heart as a pastor. He responded appropriately.
He went to twelve-step groups. He had four times a year. He was involved in a lie detector test with a trained detective. Wow! Wow!
He went through the classes. He, I mean, it was full-on repentance where everything was checked. But what he said to me that broke my heart is, he said, "Gary, when I'm in one of my recovery groups, I know everything about a guy. I know his triggers. I know his character strengths and weaknesses.
Kind of." The family situation. I know the last time he sinned and what he's most ashamed of, and some of his childhood hurts. I don't know his last name. I don't know what neighborhood he lives in. I don't know his job.
I don't know how much money he makes. Because I go to church on Sunday, and it's the exact opposite. I know who who voted for this person, who roots for this team. I know what neighborhood they live in. I have an idea of how much money they make.
I don't know anything that's going on in their soul. And I just thought, how do we get that community without having to go through addiction to get there? You're pointing at it, authentic. We are all addicts of some kind. I mentioned in this book my addiction to comfort, my addiction to sugar.
I mean, I have things that really do drive me, and they might not seem as scandalous as others. But if we're honest about that, then at least we can we feel compassion for those who have fallen because we see that we're fellow sinners. Jesus is the only hero. And and we've got to stick back with that. the The church is not perfect.
Jesus is perfect. That's why we're committed to the church because of Jesus. I so appreciate your vulnerability. You do write in the book, Gary, about some of those addictions. We we say addictions, but those desires for comfort.
My sugar is pretty close to addiction. Comfort is. What are the benefits of kind of addressing those physical things to kind of reflect the greater, deeper avoidance? Sense of comfort, if you will. What I love what Paul does in Colossians is he tells us what to take off, so that he tells us what to put on.
He tells us take off sexual immorality because if you're struggling with that and some of those issues you mentioned, Jim, that's what you're thinking about. That's what you're talking to counselors about. That's what you're asking people to hold you accountable with. It becomes this big thing where you don't see all of the little, and I don't want to say little thing, where you don't see all of the heart issues. And so Paul says, take off sexual immorality, Colossians three, then.
Anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, and lying. He says, but then put on compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love. And so we're asking ourselves, if I'm struggling with these sins, if I'm if I just don't want to take a drink today, or financial malfeasance, or whatnot, I'm not thinking about. Was I kind? When I was driving, was I compassionate when that person shared with me, or did I come off as holier than thou?
Was I patient with that person and? Paul calls us to a whole different level of holiness—not what we don't do, but really how we treat others who fail. If you think about it, compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love—Paul says our holiness is sort of determined how we treat people who aren't very holy. That's the character of Christ, and so I think we've got to get rid of a lot of the sins of the flesh that mask. The level of sin in our heart, but that takes a lot of work, Gary.
Yeah, I read too many Puritans. I'm sweating already. That's where they challenge.
Well, we lean toward comfort, though. I think is is what you were driving at at one point in the book. Is that comfort is that's where it's at, baby, and and that's not the Christian calling. No.
Well, it's funny because last time I came here, I stayed at the same place where you guys put us up, and it's nice. But for whatever reason, I couldn't get the shower. To regulate, it was super hot or super cold.
Now I've been there probably a dozen times. It's just a bad day, but it's one of those showers where okay, do I want to be scalded or frozen? But I got done with that shower, and it hit me when I look at the life of Paul. My worst shower was Paul's best. Wow!
He never had a shower like that. When he traveled, he was in the open sea. He traveled on ships. They broke apart. I mean.
You know the prisons that he was in didn't have toilets. They didn't have faucets. It was stinky. It was, I mean, the OCD part of me. My skin wants to crawl, even thinking about it.
And so when I look at the discomfort that Paul went through for the sake of the church, and I I can't put up with the one sermon that doesn't seem particularly well thought out, or a worship leader that goes off the rails, or some annoying people in the church. Look. The church is filled with annoying people, but we've got to welcome them. We don't want to go to the Bible studies because we're like these really aren't my people, but if they're God's people. We have to respond with compassion, kindness, patience, and love, and sacrifice.
Paul sacrifice for these people who's never he's never met. And so, one of the reasons I wrote this, "The Life You're Reborn to Live," is if you don't have this passion for this church, if you have a self-centered salvation, you don't really know what the Christian life is like. You don't have the passion for Jesus that will fill your heart. You're gonna be more susceptible to those things. Gary, this has been so good, and you know, I was thinking this might be the one day program, but there's so much here, and it's such good stuff for people to think about.
Let's go another day. Can you do it? Love to. And that way, we can capture more of the wonderful content in your book, "The Life You Were Reborn to Live," and we hope you were encouraged. By the conversation today, Gary's book is a great tool that can help you unlearn the false beliefs that keep you from the abundant life Christ offers.
And when you give a donation of any amount to focus on the family, we'll send you a copy of Gary's book to say thank you for partnering with us in ministry. And we're counting on support from listeners who will work with us to strengthen marriages, equip parents, save preborn babies' lives, and reach. More people with the gospel, and when you contribute, focus on the family. You're sharing the love of God and vital resources with moms and dads like Peter, who wrote to tell us this. Because your program means so much to me, I've continued my donations even through a period of unemployment.
Wow, that is man, that touches my heart. I've been listening for well over a decade. It's hard to find a place where problems and issues are spoken of in an open and frank. Way it's fantastic to hear relationship issues being addressed in a Christ-centered way. And now that I have a child, you make me feel not so alone in the world.
I know that you help thousands, if not millions, of people, and you lead us to seek solutions in Christ. Whew, that is really good. That's an emotional word, and we so appreciate that. That's really encouraging, frankly. And so, when you give to the Ministry of Focus, you're supporting parents like Peter, and we invite.
To do so, when you call eight hundred the letter A in the word family, or check the show notes for details. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Gary Thomas, and once more help you and your family thrive in Christ. John, can you believe it? Focus on the family.
We'll celebrate 50 years of ministry next year. That's really amazing, Jim. And we know that behind those 50 years, there are countless real-life stories from listeners—stories about marriages strengthened, babies saved, and even people coming to Christ. Looking back, it's amazing what God has done.
So, we want you to give us a call and record. Your story details and the link are in the show notes.
