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I remember praying, Lord, if you have any mercy. Take me home, I don't want to live anymore. But when you've had your life collapse and Christ has met you in that place, Certain things just don't matter so much anymore. Hmm, well that's Sheila Walsh sharing a very powerful way to understand heaven and how that understanding can impact our lives right here on earth. I'm John Fuller, and welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Sheila Walsh is such a brilliant storyteller. I mean, it's powerful when you listen to her. I think it's partly her great Scottish accent. But her stories are meaningful. I mean, they're deep and they grab you.
We had to cut yesterday's conversation short, but it was so good that we wanted to bring you the rest of the conversation today and tomorrow. If you missed the show last time, we covered some of Sheila's remarkable life story. She lost her father at just five years old, which led to a series of questions about God and eventually left her in a psychiatric hospital at 32 years old. Sheila's testimony is powerful.
So, if you missed yesterday's conversation, contact us to get an audio copy, or you can find the entire episode on the Focus on the Family broadcast app. Today, we're going to cover some of the difficult questions that we wrestle with as Christians, and I believe the Bible provides robust. Answers like, why do bad things happen? Or where is God in my disappointment? Yeah, and Sheila has wrestled with those questions, and her life experience points to Jesus and the hope we have in Him.
For eternity. That's so good. She's taken a deep dive into what the Bible says about heaven. I think you're really going to enjoy today's conversation. It's the hope portion of these three days.
But if you're in that spot and you're wondering, does God really see me? Does God really want a relationship with me? Does he care? We have resources for you here at Focus on the Family to address those questions. Right.
And one of the things that we have is immediately accessible through our website. It's a terrific resource called Coming Home, which gives a great overview of what it means to follow Jesus and to experience life in Him. We also have Sheila Walsh's terrific book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. And you'll find details about Sheila and these resources at our website.
Well, let's go ahead and get back into the conversation. Here's Sheila Walsh on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Sheila, welcome back for day two of this great discussion with this wonderful book, The Hope of Heaven. You really picked a good theme, didn't you? It's not The Hope of this World.
What's that? It would be a short book. Yeah, The Hope of Heaven.
Well, you start the book with this great exclamation, which is, I'm fed up with earth. You sound like a fed up Christian when you look at this world. You know, Gene could so empathize, my wife, with that, because there's so much garbage around. You know, billboards and television and Super Bowl halftimes. You can't let your kids sit and watch that anymore because it's so sex-laden, right?
We're inundated with that stuff, and it's completely right to say, Lord, really? Why do I have to live through this before I get to you in heaven?
So what's the answer to that question? You know, I think one of the Things that I'm trying to shift away from as a believer is the mentality of just get me out of here, Lord, because honestly, that's how I was living. I was living thinking, I'll do my best for Jesus down here, and I just want to get out of here. But then I think the more I read the gospels through over and over and over, and I really encourage that, don't just read them over and over. If you can read them out loud, because there's things we're missing all the time, and it talks about the kingdom of heaven.
And when I think about the fact that the kingdom of heaven lives in us, One of my friends, you probably know him too, Sammy Rodriguez, pastor, wonderful guy. He said to me the other day, when we walk into a room as a believer, the atmosphere should shift because of who lives in us. And I love that.
So I feel like, so one of my daily prayers now, I never start a day without this. I say, Lord, give me eyes today to see what I'm going to miss. And give me ears to hear behind what somebody's saying to what's actually going on. I remember a woman waiting to talk to me after a conference, and she said, I'm so mad with you. And I said, talk to me about that.
And she said, you said something on the platform that cannot be true. And I said, what's that? She said, you said that God is all-powerful. And that God is love. And I said, yeah, I believe both of those.
And she said, then explain to me why I buried two sons. Either he's all-powerful. I've buried two sons, so he's not loving, or he's loving. But he couldn't stop my two boys dying. And I think that's one of the greatest questions that we wrestle with in life.
Why does God allow these things to happen? And I would love to think that I suddenly came up with a wonderful answer. I don't, but the only thing that I know is we're not promised a life that's free of trouble. In fact, the opposite. But we're always promised the presence of Christ.
So that's why I pray for eyes. You know, walking through the airport yesterday, I'm looking at people and I ask the Holy Spirit, because I don't want to be a pest. There's nothing worse than being an evangelical pest. But I look for people and I say, Lord, is there anyone I should pray for? And you wouldn't believe how often, my Uber driver, driving to the airport, the Lord laid on my heart, you need to pray for this man.
And I don't even know if he speaks English. But I say, but I've learned to just shut up and listen to the Holy Spirit.
So I said to him at the end, Would you mind if I prayed for you? And he nodded, and I prayed for him, and he had tears rolling down his face. And I don't need to know what's going on. I just need to be obedient to what God's doing.
Well, and he knows. Yeah, exactly. That makes even a greater impact, especially if you say, I feel like the Lord's telling me to pray for you. Yeah. I mean, that would blow somebody away, right?
Like, wow.
Okay. That's beautiful, though. Again, you weave in here so many great stories of regular day-by-day life into spiritual moments. You got a new car, I think. And my wife, Jean, loved this story, by the way.
Tell us how that illustrated this concept of there's a little something wrong with everything in this life. Maybe start there and explain that. My husband is a perfectionist. He thinks. In fact, my son and I has driven us bonkers most of our life because he thinks everything needs to be perfect.
And no, I mean, he's not, I mean, my husband's wonderful, but he just thinks like if he gets a new car. I mean, we park like three zip codes over, so nobody parks at the shopping car. Nobody's going to scratch my car. Exactly. And so it was my turn to get a new car.
And so, I mean, it's nice, it's a lovely car.
So I park it out front of the house and I say to Barry, come on, I want to show you something, because this is why I believe there's a little something wrong with everything. And he stands there and he's admiring it, and I pick up a little pebble. and I ding the door. And he just about collapses. I mean, he's, and I'm like, you know what, Barry?
This is life. It looks lovely, but something is going to happen along the line.
So let's just accept that we get to live with life not being, with there being a little something wrong with everything. I got to be honest, I'm leaning with Barry on this one. Of course you are. What are you doing? Of course you are.
I spent money on this, but I like the point that everything's a little broken. Otherwise, we get annoyed with other people. You know, if people don't quite live up to our expectations, or they're, you know, even like particularly around the holiday seasons, around Thanksgiving or Christmas, when we've got people coming over, our relatives, and now Aunt Martha is a vegan and won't eat the turkey. You know, and you just get so annoyed with people. But I think there's something about having had your life collapse.
I mean, really come to a place. I remember praying, Lord, if you have any mercy, take me home. I don't want to live anymore. But when you've had your life collapse and Christ has met you in that place, Certain things just don't matter so much anymore. But, Sheila, I think this is the great human struggle, though.
People that bad things happen to. Them, you have two responses. You get wrapped up in that bitterness, that questioning constantly in your head. Why did this happen to me? Why did my two sons die?
Why did my mother die? Why, why, why, why, why? And you stay in that swish of. Questions that really erode your joy and your emotional ability to manage those things. Or the other path of, Lord, I don't know what's happening.
I can't explain it. Nobody can explain it to me. I've tried. But I'm gonna trust you. It's kind of where Paul says, be content in all things.
Really? I much would have preferred he put many things, right?
So we had an out. But the Lord's saying, be content in all things. Lord, do you know the situation I'm in? How can you say that to me? And then you have that struggle with the Lord, and then go for it.
Ask the Lord to show Himself, however, that may be. But speak to that basic struggle. Of what we have there in our human experience this side of heaven. I think we struggle because we try to present a good front to God. We try to do, I remember seeing that with my son.
My father-in-law moved in with us when my mother-in-law died, and he lived with us for two years, and it was fantastic because he let my son do things I would never let him do. I mean, it was just perfect. Like, throw rocks at your car? Oh, no, he was in throwing rocks. But I remember the night that William died.
My son was exactly the same age I was when my father died. He was five, and William had gone upstairs to have a bath, and he didn't come back down.
So I went upstairs, knocked on the door, and he didn't answer.
So when I opened the door, he was laying on the floor, and his head was in a pool of blood.
So I didn't know if he'd bumped his head or had a heart attack. But I cover him with a towel and I'm calling 911, and I hear my son coming up the stairs.
So I'm trying to call him and say, Christian, just stay where you are, darling. I'll be down in a minute. But he doesn't. The minute I got off the phone, he's right there at the door. And he said, what's wrong?
And I said, Papa's hurt himself, but we're going to get some help. And he said, he asked me the most interesting question. He said, can I help? And I remember how I was kept out of everything. We didn't go to the graveside, we didn't go to the funeral, we didn't go to anything, because we were children.
And I said, Yeah, you could help. And I said, Sit beside your papa and get a wet rag and put it on his forehead. And you know that silly song that you and he both sing? Sing it to him. But I watched my son after William passed that night.
For the first few days he did what I expected. He cried and he was sad. But then we'd adopted this ginormous cat from the shelter. And Christian loved this hairy beast. But I noticed him pushing her off the sofa and I thought, interesting.
So I said, babe, let's go for a walk. And I said to him, Are you angry? And he said, Yes, I'm angry. I said, Well, talk to me about that. He said, You told me that God answers prayers.
And when we were following the ambulance to the hospital, I said, God, please don't take my papa. And he took him.
So, A, I don't like him, and B, I'm not talking to him anymore. And I said, Yeah, I totally get that.
So I drove him to the sports store and I bought a boxing gloves and a punching bag. And I said, here's the deal, babe. When you're angry, hit that thing till you're exhausted, but then you fall into the arms of a God who's big enough to let you be angry. Because I think we think we've got to get it right and say the right things. To the level that we're willing to be honest with God is a level to how much we actually trust Him.
You know, Sheila, so many moms and dads are hearing that, going, ugh. Why didn't I think of that? When I had that moment, how do you bring that presence of everyday things that are going on? And some extraordinary, like that situation with your father dying and But how do you have the presence of mind to say, okay, I need to be able to provide an object lesson here? I mean, what triggers that?
What is in you? I think it's because Jesus honestly is my best friend. I know people will say that. And I probably said it when I was younger. But I get it now, that I have been promised this incredible companionship.
So from the minute I wake up, I did it this morning. I'll be like, good morning, Lord. I don't know where we're going today, but I'm coming with you. And just looking for, you know, looking for moments. Even like I...
When he was in Carpool Lane, when I was picking him up, I could always tell what kind of day he'd had. He wore it well. And I could tell this one day, he was just in a bad place. And so I drove him to the ice cream parlor because I knew he wouldn't talk immediately. And eventually he said, Do you want to know what happened to me?
And I was like, Yes, I do. And he said, His best friend had knocked over his desk, Christian desk, and he got into trouble for it. And he said, I told the teacher it wasn't me, I told him that it was Chase. And she said, I got in trouble for tattling.
So I said to Chase at lunchtime, You need to tell her that that was you. And he said, I'm not going to tell her.
So here's the decision I've made, Mom. Chase is no longer my best friend, and he's off my prayer list. And so I said, Yeah, I get that, dude, totally So um but that night I told him to go get this huge bag of flour I got from Costco, and I said, Let's go for a walk, you and I are gonna do an experiment So we walked and walked and eventually it's so heavy, he drops it. And I said, Christian, that's what it looks like when you won't forgive. Your friend's been probably sleeping for 20 minutes.
You're the one out here holding the flower. You want life to be fair. Fair does not live here, but Jesus does. And forgiveness is God's gift to us to live in a world that is not fair. It's so good.
He'll carry the flower for us, right? He will carry the flower for us. Listen again. You speak about the bummer lambs. I'm not sure most people understand that.
It's just a beautiful illustration again of kind of the things we learn at the bottom, not at the top of life. Explain the bummer lamb. And it really came out of my childhood. My mom was a farm accountant, and so she would do the accounts for the farmers and the shepherds, which meant that I would get early access to the spring lambs being born. And it's the most beautiful sight, but every now and again, a ewe will give birth to a lamb and immediately reject it.
The shepherd can try and push the lamb back, but the mother will kick the lamb away.
So if the shepherd doesn't intervene, that lamb will die not of hunger but of a broken spirit. And they're called bummer lambs. Happens in New Zealand, it happens everywhere.
So the shepherd will take that little lamb into his home, feed it with a bottle, keep it warm by the fire, and at some point during every day, he'll hold the lamb close to his heart to let it hear a heartbeat. But this is the part I loved. When the bummer lambs are strong, they put back with the rest of the flock. And the shepherd will come out in the morning and he'll call, sheep, sheep, sheep. The first ones to run to him are the bummer lambs because they know his voice.
He doesn't love them more than the rest of the flock, but they believe it. I will be a bummer lamb until the day I see Jesus face to face. But it's not the bad news anymore. It's the best news. Does Jesus love his bum or lambs more than the rest?
Nope. But we just actually dare to believe it. Yeah, that's so good. You know, there's millions of marriages that we help to serve. We try to help them in their struggles, and we hear their stories.
And not just that, but parents and, you know, women that have had abortion. And it just goes on. Anything that touches the family side. And, man, we want to hear from you, even with what Sheila is sharing. If this is touching your heart, go to the website.
We have a spot there. And then, John, you can give some other details where people can leave the story of what perhaps even what focus has helped you through or what your pain point has been and how God has shown up. Yeah. Tell us your story. Down at the bottom of our website, we've got a link to share your story.
And of course, as Jim was saying, we'd love to hear how God is reaching into your life through this ministry. While you're there at the website, look for a copy of Sheila's terrific book, The Hope of Heaven. How the promise of eternity changes everything. You'll find that and the opportunity to share your story with us in the show notes. Sheila, John 14:1 and 2 says, Let not your hearts be troubled.
Believe in God, believe also in me.
So, when you're looking at that, what hope does heaven offer when it comes to our disappointments in this life? There's so many people listening and watching, they're living in that disappointment, and you can fill in the narrative. But this life is full of disappointment. Why do those promises of God? Why do they give us hope?
Because he promised that he was going to prepare a place for us. And when the time was right, he would come and get us. And even the fact he said, don't let your hearts be troubled helps us understand. He knows our hearts are going to be troubled. You know, that we're going to have things that don't make sense.
We're going to have disappointments. And the thing that I love about Christ's life, though, I think back to that night, his final night with his closest friends. And when they all walk down into the Garden of Gethsemane, and Christ asks his closest buddies to come further with him, but they're exhausted and they fall asleep. And I love that Luke being the only one of the four gospel writers who's a doctor who actually gives us this detail that Christ sweat blood. which is a condition called hemotohydrosis, and it still happens today.
But where it usually shows up is when people are being walked to their execution. It's where you're under the most extreme stress. Death is imminent. Death is imminent. And but here's what I love.
Jesus processed his pain in the presence of his Father. He didn't sit down and say, Well, you know, this has always been the plan. Let's go. I'm ready. It was, he was an agony of soul and spirit.
And he poured that out. But I think when you tell God the truth, you make space for grace. When you hold on to all those feelings of being disappointed or being angry with God, but feeling, well, I can't tell him that. It's almost like you close the door. But when in his presence, when you tell him the whole truth, I believe you make space for grace.
You know, Sheila, even that description is such a good reminder for us as believers who we get our sight down, kind of into this world rather than up into heaven, to be able to have that presence to say, Lord, okay, if you're going to take me in this path, I'm going to grab as many people on the way as possible. That is such a heaven-forward-looking viewpoint. You know, again, back not to toggle so boldly, but back to a more serious subject. You've been really open about depression, anxiety. That you've experienced.
And now, you know, I think the CDC, some of the latest information and research from the CDC Center for Disease Control. I think one bit of research I saw 50% of 15 to 25 year olds, 50%. percent are struggling with anxiety and depression. Kind of that post-COVID impact, but I'm sure the relentless bad news of everything. Everything's bad news.
Everything. And you can get it on your phone. You can get it certainly on your television. It just. pounds us every day 24-7.
How does scripture lift or how should it lift us up above? that Frey and what helped you specifically to say, okay, I'm not going to listen to those voices, I'm going to read the word. Yeah, well a couple of things. One, I still take medication to this day. I take my little pill every morning with a prayer of thanksgiving that God has provided help for those of us who need that in this world.
Can I interject and just have you speak to the person who says, If the Lord loves me, I wouldn't need that medication. But if you fell down and broke your leg, if the Lord loved you, would you break your leg? I mean, I wouldn't say to you, Jim, well, you've got glasses on, where's your faith? You know, you need to correct your vision. Right, and I'm a full supporter of that.
That's why I wanted you to say it, because so often we don't see it that way. You know, and brain chemistry plays a role in how we're feeling and how we express ourselves.
So work with the Lord in the great science that he provided. I mean, it's only through him we have those revelations, in my opinion. And honestly, initially, when I was in the psych hospital, my psychiatrist first wanted me to be on medication. I was like, no, no, no. I don't want to walk around grinning, talking to some imaginary dog and drooling on myself.
He said, no, those are street drugs. We don't do those in here. But I came to understand that, you know, when your serotonin level is so low, it restores you to a place where you can be who God has called you to be. But when I read the Psalms, I have these volumes of this wonderful old British theologian will tell you what was happening in David's life. when you wrote that psalm.
And so Psalm 34 is one of my favorites. I mean, we love it because it's the Psalm that says, The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. But it begins with, Those who look to him for help will be radiant with joy. No shadow of shame will touch their faces. And at that point, David is on the run from Saul.
He's lied to a priest, and it's going to cost that priest and 80 other priests and their families their lives. He's gone into another kingdom where Goliath was from, and he's lied. He's pretended he's insane. The king kicks him out, and he's in a cave. And that's when he writes Psalm 34, because it starts with this terrible place he's in, but then he shifts and he says, But those who look to the Lord for help.
Will be radiant with joy. No shadow of shame will touch their faces. Shame does not belong to us. Christ took shame on himself so that we can live without that. Yeah, but again, such a battle of.
Voices from within, right? Yeah. You have to. Outside of that, I mean, reading the word, what were some of the spiritual disciplines that really helped you cope? as well with those voices.
Well, you know, it's interesting when you're in a psych hospital, they take away everything you could potentially hurt yourself with. You know, like they took away my hair dryer, my makeup, anything. It all goes into the sharps box. But they left me with the one thing I could heal myself with. They left me with the word of God.
They didn't take that away. And I remember that very first night when I was so afraid. I mean, I felt I'd made a mistake going there, that, you know, would I ever get out of this place? My dad died in a psych hospital. Will I make it out of here?
And in the night, you know what it's like in the middle of the night when you're having, when all those thoughts come, and it can be the hardest time to get through.
So what I did was I would literally drag myself out of the bed and plant my feet on the floor. And I did not feel this, but I would repeat from Psalm 27: I believe. I will live to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. I've learned the only way I can counter the enemy's lies is with the truth of the word of God. And I start where I am.
I mean, did I believe it that night? No, I did not believe it. But I still believe that the word of God is true. And so I, and the nurse actually came in to check on me because apparently I was saying it quite loudly. And she wanted to make sure I wasn't actually thinking I was talking to somebody who was in the room.
And I was like, nope, don't worry, talking to the Lord. Yeah, I mean, it's so amazing. It's one of the things that breaks my heart with. A lot of seminary students that have gone to Ivy League schools of theology. I've got a few in mind.
They lose their faith there. Isn't that sad? And I've talked to a couple of them, and they'll say, well, I just read so much. I didn't believe the fables anymore. And that's such a dangerous place to be.
The Word of God being true and believing it is the rock that we can rest on in this life. It's interesting, though. One of the things I find really encouraging at the moment, one of my friends who works with Amazon is talking about the fact of the number of young men who are ordering Bibles at the moment. That's encouraging. And that just blows me away.
And one of my friends, I'm sure you know her too, Jenny Allen, you know, has been doing these crusades in all the different college campuses. And there's no bells and whistles, all the stuff that we thought, oh, we'll make it look really professional like Vegas and people will love Jesus.
Well, probably not. We actually just need the Holy Spirit for that.
So they'll just have these incredible, they'll preach the gospel and then invite people to come forward. Thousands of young people are getting saved and getting baptized. And they don't want all the bells and whistles. They just want Jesus.
Well, didn't I tell you she is awesome? Sheila Walsh is such a remarkable storyteller. And unfortunately, we had to cut today's conversation short because we're going to come back again tomorrow and continue the discussion with Sheila because she has more great insights about heaven that we want to make sure we share with you. What Sheila said at the end there is so true. All you need is Jesus to make him the Lord of your life.
And I'll tell you what, it's the best decision you'll ever make. If you're in a spot where you'd like to learn more about what it means to become a part of God's family, get in touch with us. We have caring Christian counselors and other resources that will help provide you the information you need to say yes to Jesus. And certainly one of the resources we would point you to is a little booklet called Coming Home. It's online as a downloadable document, and you can get that when you visit our website.
Also, when you get in touch, please share how Focus on the Family has impacted you. Impacted you or someone in your family. We would love to hear from you. And we heard from Tammy in Illinois, who told us, thank you for your commitment to helping marriages, families, and the unborn. I've gleaned so much from your ministry and radio program over the last two years while raising our children and going through some marital struggles.
I've ordered many books and I've learned so much.
So I thank you for your ministry. What a terrific testimony that is. Oh, it is. And thank you, Tammy, for sharing that with us. It encourages us.
And I'm so glad the resources here at Focus on the Family have helped you in your marriage and parenting. That's why we're here for a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family. We want to make Sheila's great book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything Available to You. Your financial support allows us to bring resources and the hope of Jesus to literally hundreds of thousands of families, just like Tammy's every day. But we can't do it without you.
So, donate, get your copy, and let's do ministry together. And I'll add for a limited time, we have a special offer when you request a copy of The Hope of Heaven for a monthly gift of $30 or more. We'll send you a Focus on the Family-branded mug, just like we use in the studio here, and a four-ounce bag of premium coffee selected by actually John. John's the coffee guy, but it's Jim's choice of coffee, and it's a terrific deal. The window to make that donation or receive the coffee and the mug is limited.
So, contact us with your monthly gift of $30 or more by July 31st. and we'll send the book to you as well as Jim Noted. And you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that your dollars are going to help strengthen families literally around the world.
Now we're just a phone call away. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family, or you can donate and get Sheila's great book and access to this limited time offer in the show notes. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Sheila Walsh. and once again, help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Next year marks 50 years of ministry for focus on the family, encouraging families and helping them thrive in Christ every day. How has God used focus on the family to strengthen your marriage, to guide you in your parenting, maybe to bring hope in a difficult season? We want to hear your story. Call now and share how Focus on the Family has made an impact in your life. You'll find the link in the show notes.
