Hey, this is John Fuller, and we're getting ready to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Focus on the Family. But the celebration won't be complete without hearing from you. We want to know how Focus on the Family has helped you survive the toddler years, navigate the teen years, or be reminded that you're not alone. How has God used this ministry to encourage you? Tell us when you click the link in the show notes.
I believe that all those longings will be fulfilled in heaven. Artists will paint with colors they've never seen. Musicians will write songs that we've never heard those notes before. And all those things that are buried deep inside of us will come to fruition. I love it was said that God gives you the desires of your heart, but I think He gives them first of all.
The Lord places those desires in giftedness. And I just can't wait to see what that will look like for her home.
Well, that's Sheila Walsh giving a really beautiful glimpse of what heaven will be like. And she's our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thank you for joining us. I'm John Follett. John, Sheila is one of our fan favorites, right?
The listener favorites. You enjoy hearing from her. She's been at the broadcast a couple of times through different ways, something we call a hitchcock. When we hear a presentation out and about at a church or something like that, we have a team member that's listening for those and suggesting them for a program. And Sheila, you have come through the focus program in that way.
But it's so good to have you here in the studio. Thanks for being with us. It's lovely to see you again, Jim, and to meet you, John. I'm so happy to be here. Just want to get you in early.
You know, your life story, which we're going to unfold a bit, and your desire for heaven is so beautiful. I'm looking forward for people to listen and to watch this. It's really inspirational. I know what's going to happen, and people are going to be touched by the way the Lord has worked in your life, the great stories that you have. And you connect the dots in such wonderful ways.
Thanks again for being here. Thank you. And Sheila is, of course, a television host, a Grammy-nominated singer, a Bible teacher, a speaker, best-selling author. She does a lot of things. And she has written a new book.
It's called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. Sheila, when you look at it in the book, you mention a lot of scripture, which is so wonderful. That's what we're based upon, right, as believers in Christ, is the Word of God. Ecclesiastes 3.11 says, He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the.
human heart That's kind of the basis. You know, even for the non-believer, There's something that captures our imagination about is there something next? Maybe, sort of, we hope. Even the identification that that is in our heart as human beings is a clue. To God's beautiful creation of us, isn't it?
Yeah, C.S. Lewis wrote beautifully on that. If our hearts desire something more than we can see here, it must mean we're made for something more. In that context, though, you look around the globe, look at all the great religions. I mean, almost every Human culture has an expression of this Reaching for something eternal, something next, which again is evidence that God has stamped our heart for that journey.
It's a gift. I honestly think it's a gift. I think we see it as a disadvantage.
So we're always looking, always looking for that next thing. I see it as, I've learned now that nothing's going to be perfect, which has helped in my marriage. That's why we've been married for 31 years. Way to go. Because you know that Barry was not designed to make me happy.
You know, I wasn't designed to make him happy. We were designed to know Jesus. And so until we finally see him face to face, there will always be that place that longs for him. And I think as you express it that way, it is the great equalizer of the playing field of humanity. I don't care what your sexual orientation is, what your appetites are, what your drives and motivations are, money, whatever.
It is the the plague of humanity. If you try to fill that void with something other than God, You're in a bad spot. Yeah. I think one of the things I think I was rereading Mere Christianity because my son read it when he read it years ago, then he read it in high school. And it was interesting seeing the parts he had underlined as a high school student.
Because he's about to turn 29 now. But it was interesting. C.S. Lewis said that there's three ways we deal with this ache, this longing. We either deal with it externally, where we think something out there would fix it, or internally we almost come to a place of thinking, you know what, this is as good as life's going to get.
You know, we just kind of resign ourselves. But he offered the third solution eternally. When we realize that we are eternal beings and that we haven't even. I was reading something last night, and somebody said to an author, and I don't remember his name, so do you think this is your best life? And he said, I have not begun to live my best life until we see Jesus face to face, and then we will never live anything less than our best life.
It's so true.
Well, you have a lot of humor in the book as well. I love you digging through a cabinet looking for something and whipping your hair back. What happened?
Well, it actually was the genesis of this book. I mean, I. I was, I came across this jar of cream that my husband had bought for me at Christmas, and it was expensive.
So I was trying to see if there was anything left in it because I'm Scottish and we use everything.
Well, let me just say before you continue, that was very bold of Barry to buy you beauty cream. I know. I don't think I would take that move, but way to go, Barry.
Well, that's Instagram for you. It fills you in and all the latest stuff. But I realized there was little left, but then I bent my head forward to flip my hair out of my face. And in that second, something snapped, and I thought I'd broken my neck. Wow.
I immediately threw up. I couldn't move. And so Barry came up and he took me. We spent 18 hours in the emergency room. True.
MRIs, I mean, just everything. Turned out that all I'd done was torn ligaments in my neck, which you know is painful but not drastic. But while I was in that MRI and all the hours of waiting, I was like, Lord, there's something. There's something wrong at the moment. You know, I've gone through all sorts of different experiences with you.
I've walked through clinical depression with you. I've walked through being in a psychiatric hospital with you. But I feel at the moment as if there's something that I'm missing. And so I did what I always do. I dig into God's word and I came across Hebrews 12.
And this one verse shifted everything in me. Said, keep your eyes on Jesus, who both began and finished this race we're in. Study how he did it. Because he never lost sight of where he was headed, that glorious finish in and with his father. And I underline that now.
It's that he never lost sight of where he was headed. He began and he finished this race we're in. And so that led me to a study of heaven. What can we know? You know what's so amazing about the word?
It's right there. We just have to read it. I mean, it even tells you, if you're in me, here's the fruit that people will see in you. The fruit of the Spirit, right? Love, joy, peace.
I mean, it's very forthright. All we have to do is read it and know it and absorb it and meditate on it. And that's maybe one of the great tragedies of today. We're too busy to actually read the word that's eternal. I know, and we're robbing our souls when we do that.
We're just because I went through years like that, where it'd be like I was brought up as a good little Baptist girl on the west coast of Scotland, where you have your quiet time every morning. And so it's like, okay, well, I read the word of God for 10 minutes, so I'm good to go. As opposed to realizing, no, this is like my daily bread. This is, and also something that I love. Years ago, I read a thing by Athanasius, you know, guy in the fourth century.
But he said, This, whereas most of Scripture speaks to us, the Psalms speak for us. They give us a language of prayer. And so my dear friend Dr. Jeremiah sent me this little book, and he said, Here's what I think you should do, because it was the Psalms and Proverbs. Read three Psalms out loud every day.
Let your ears hear what your eyes are reading. And that has been a game changer for me. Boy, and again, just a simple practice that brings so much fruit. Into your life. Sheila, you mentioned growing up in Scotland.
You've shared about your dad, and he struggled with both physical health issues and mental health issues and ended up taking his own life, I think, at 34, right? Yes. How old were you when he died? I was five. You were five years old.
And you relate that story to how he changed, how when he had a stroke, I believe, right? Yeah, he had a cerebral hemorrhage. And it was really like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
Because my dad was my hero when I was a little girl. He was the yes in my life. My mom would tell me to be careful, and my dad would say, no, go for it. You've got it. And so I just adored my dad.
Wonderful Christian man, beautiful singing voice. But that cerebral hemorrhage, the way that pressed on his brain impacted his personality. And he went from being this loving, safe, kind father to a Difficult, confused, and ultimately violent stranger. And you became the focal point of that pain for him for some reason that you couldn't justify as a five-year-old, he didn't know what was I doing wrong, right? No, but it's interesting because it confused me as a child.
He never hit my sister, never hit my brother. The only person he ever took his anger out on was me. But since then, a friend of mine who's a neurosurgeon said that sometimes when there's a significant brain injury, the person instinctively reaches out to the one person they believe will love them no matter what.
So, rather than it being an indication of a lack of relationship, in some strange way, it was actually his way of connecting with me. But you don't understand that when you're five. Yeah, of course. And maybe if you're 55, you don't understand it. And, you know, so often, and we've talked about this where we share the loss of parents together.
Both my parents died by the time I was 11, 12. And so we've talked about that. But so often when I speak, and I'm sure it's true when you speak, you'll have a line of people. that still have great bitterness or weight or guilt or shame because of that lack of healthy parental connection. But you said this in the book, and this is for everybody that would be in that line or whatever journey the Lord has put you on to teach you the things he wanted to teach you as a child.
But this is so good where you wrote, we will not be judged by the last thing we did. but by the last thing Jesus did on the cross. Boom. Don't you love that? I love it because it relieves the guilt.
Yeah. Even for your dad. And it's the gospel, it's the truth. You know, it's interesting because my father drowned himself. He was in a psychiatric hospital and he escaped one night and drowned himself in the river behind the hospital.
And I decided some years ago to go back. I wanted to retrace his footsteps. And so I didn't even tell my mom because I knew she wouldn't want to do that. But I went and I found myself at the river and I felt, I thought I would feel dread. And I didn't, I felt the presence of Christ.
And I felt as if the Lord said, Sheila, he went from this river into my arms, and I carried him all the way home. Because my dad was like, I mean, he loved the Lord, he was a good guy. But once you have some kind of brain injury, you're just not yourself. But I know that, and here's what's interesting. I was shocked to learn that my mum was scared to meet my dad again in heaven.
Because he had become so violent toward the end, that thought terrified her. And it was only when I ended up at 34 in a psych hospital and my mum flew over to do some sessions with me That she began to unpack some of the pain of what had happened that she'd never spoken to anyone about because we're Scottish, we just get on with life. Yeah, no, I so appreciate that. And I think this is a good place to mention: you know, at Focus here, we have Caring Christian counselors. You can call us.
We want to be there for you if you're in a place of pain like that. I don't know of many organizations that will offer that, but we want to be there for you. You can call and set an appointment, and they'll call you back and kind of get an idea of where you're at and some next steps you can take to get on the path of healing spiritually and emotionally. And it'll be a privilege. And John, you'll give those details.
Yeah, in fact, let me just say it's 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459. When you call, just ask to be connected to our counseling team, and they'll arrange a time for a counselor to give you a call back. Sheila, we're talking about the hope of heaven. And I want to, you know, we're just kind of laying the groundwork a little bit here. But Revelation 21, 4 says, God will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more.
Neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away. How does heaven restore in this life that kind of brokenness to have that hope of what's coming when we're broken here You know, it's so interesting because I remember one Christmas, my mom and my sister and I are great readers. My mom read everything Charles Dickens wrote by the time she was 14. Wow. And so that would always be in our Christmas gifts.
There would be a book. And I remember the year she gave me The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And on Christmas Day, I'm reading it and I'm getting halfway through. And I come to the place where Aslan, the lion representing Christ, is slain. And I throw the book across the room.
And my mom says, What's wrong with you? And I said, Aslan died. This is terrible. I hate this book. And she said, Then you need to read on.
I have kept that in mind all my life. If you find yourself in a tough place right now, then you need to read on because the story is not over. God has promised, not that everything is good or that everything feels good, but God has promised that he will bring good from everything that happens in our life. You know, Sheila, you have a great knack for looking at everyday life situations and applying them spiritually. I felt more in tune when I was a younger Christian that I could do that pretty well.
I'd be at a stoplight going, Lord, you had me stop at this red light so I can look at somebody and point to you. You know, I was just like. On fire for every moment. And I think at times, especially if you've been a Christian a long time, we can start to lose that perspective that there's so many great spiritual analogies every day. Right in front of us, if we can see them.
And in that context, you say that you can know what heaven is and that we have a place there to belong. And you related it to a story where your son forgot his past. Describe what happened and how that became a spiritual moment. For 20 years, I was part of something called Women of Faith. We had 30 conferences every year around the country.
And my son was little at the time, so I had a girl who would travel with me so that just when I was on stage, Christian could be with her.
So I was over in the arena Friday night. I'm supposed to be speaking. And they have backstage passes. And to come to where the speakers are, you have to have an all-access pass. You can't just have one to get to the bookstore or something.
But they'd forgotten theirs. And I'm expecting them over for dinner, but they haven't arrived.
So I go to look for them and I find them at the security desk. And they don't have their passes.
So they're not going to let them in. And Christian, who's probably five at the time, sees me and says, that's my mom. I'm with her. And I thought, the beautiful thing about that is because of Jesus, we have an all-access pass into the presence of God. That if anybody, like, if you ever feel the enemy attack you and say, who do you think you are?
You can point to Jesus and say, that's my Savior. I'm with him. That is so good. Christian catch that? Did you parlay that into that message?
Yeah, it's funny. We've done that throughout his whole life. In fact, if you walk up the stairs in our house, next time you come to Dallas, you need to come over and have a cup of tea. If you walk up the stairs, there's this great picture of Christian. He's six maybe, and he's covered in chocolate.
We'd had a birthday party for one of the crew, and Christian had kind of basically dived into the cake.
So he was covered in it. And I was wearing a cream suit that night. I remember because I've never worn it again. And they were about to introduce me, and suddenly I hear this little voice behind me saying, Mom! And I knew he just wanted one more hug.
And so I knew what was going to happen. I bent down and I hugged him, and I got covered in chocolate. And I have it framed because I said to him, You don't clean yourself up to come to your mom, and you don't clean yourself up to come to your heavenly father. What a great lesson. Come as you are.
Yes, what a great lesson. That's so good. Obviously, heaven has a lot of different meanings to a lot of different people, Sheila. But in terms of how we see heaven described, In the scriptures, joy is a big part of that. What are other aspects of heaven that we can look forward to?
Well, I think one of the most amazing things is that I think for the first time in our lives we'll be fully known. I think every single human being wants to be fully known and fully loved. But we're so afraid if we were fully known we wouldn't be fully loved that we trade away being known. And I think I mean, I think a number of people who are watching this broadcast are listening in and think, if people knew the real me, I would not be invited back to the party. But in heaven you will be fully known and fully loved.
Plus, I think how cool will it be to sit down, like, I can't wait to meet Paul. And thank him for some of the insights he gave us about heaven. And to sit and talk to the Apostle John. I mean, I just love him because he's got this great idea of he got it, that he was loved by Jesus. Several times in this gospel, he'll say, John, the Apostle Jesus loved.
He just throws it here.
So I just think it's, and also, I think of somebody like my mom who always wanted to be a teacher but had to leave school at 14 to help her mother take care of my grandfather who was very ill with Alzheimer's. And I think all those longings, I mean I'm sure there's not one person listening right now who doesn't have something they think, gosh, I wonder what have happened if I'd done that and done that. I believe that all those longings will be fulfilled in heaven. Artists will paint with colours they've never seen. Musicians will write songs that we've never heard those notes before.
And all those things that are buried deep inside of us will come to fruition. I love it when it says that God gives you the desires of your heart, but I think He gives them first of all. The Lord places those desires in giftedness. And I just can't wait to see what that will look like when we're home. You know, in that regard, so often as Christians, we tend to look at living this life.
With high duty, high respect and responsibility. But the Lord also gave us this life to enjoy it, right? And I think sometimes we don't translate that. We're not the most joyful people. And we should be.
Let's move to that theme again of heaven. And I want to ask you about some questions: like, will we know our loved ones in heaven? I believe we will. I mean, I think we will recognize one another.
Now, scripture makes it clear there's no marriage in heaven, but I think we will know one another. People also ask, well, how old will they be? I've gone to in as many commentaries and, you know, Ruth Graham, who was really like a spiritual mentor to me, sometimes when Billy Graham would be off on a crusade, she would invite me to the house and just kind of pour into my life. Wow. And so some of my most favorite books are books that Ruth gave me.
And I studied as much as I could to see what do people think, how old do they think will be? Like if somebody died in their 99, other 99 in heaven, if a baby was aborted, how old is that baby in heaven? But most, the scarlet thread that went through all of them from the 15th century up until now is most people think will be about the prime of life, which might have been the age that Christ was when he gave up his life. That perhaps we'll be 33, 34. We don't know that.
But I think we'll be in the best that we could ever have been. That's a great thought. And again, these are just things for us to. Ponder. Sure.
The Lord has all these things already set for us. But let me ask this: you know, this is a question that people, non-believers particularly, they'll ask, but unfortunately, now a growing number of Christians will ask this: why won't everyone be in heaven? It's the widest narrow gate in the universe. There's never been a more important R S V piece sent out. on this earth, this planet.
I mean, Jesus made it very clear there is only one way. He said, I am the way. I am the truth. I am life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
And so for people to say, well, that's a very narrow thing, but it is. It's the widest narrow gate there is. It's a beautiful thing.
So whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yeah, it's a beautiful way to describe it, you know, that that is true. Everybody is welcome. Yeah, everybody. Not everybody will say yes.
No. And that's so hard. There's a gentleman who writes to me once or twice a year, and it's always about the fact that he's still worried that his sons are not believers. And he's done everything he can. And I tell him this story of one of my, when I was growing up in Scotland at our little church, I loved our Tuesday night prayer meeting.
Now, there weren't many of us. There was maybe just like. twenty of us who would go. Um but this one man from way up in the north of Scotland, every Tuesday prayed for his wife. And you know, he he would pray with tears rolling down his face.
And she was a lovely lady, but she wouldn't she wouldn't come to church. And I remember asking him one day, Jimmy, do you wonder why God hasn't answered that prayer? And he was quiet for a moment, and then he said, He's never failed me yet, lass. I don't think he'll start now. And it was after I got back from seminary and went to Jimmy's funeral, I discovered it was at his service that she gave her life to Jesus.
A lifetime's not too long to pray. Yeah, that's so beautiful. I'm always encouraged, especially like an 80-year-old who comes to Christ. Yeah. You know, they've lived it, they know it, they know good and evil, and they finally relent.
It's always good, but it's especially good when a seven, eight-year-old comes to Christ. I remember a letter that Dr. Dobson received from a family, and this little girl said, I know I was a sinner, and my whole life was being sinful. She was like seven. I was going, man, what a great heart.
You have a story about your dog, Charlie, I think that illustrates this salvation illustration. And what happened with, I think it involved a rain gutter or something. Yeah, he was a little West Highland white terrier. I loved that wee dog. And he had a tennis ball that he loved to play with.
And we were out one day, and it had been raining. We were in the park, and I'm throwing the tennis ball, but it went too fast. Went out the gate and actually went down into a storm drain. And I'm calling his name, but all he can see is this jolly tennis ball. And Charlie follows the ball and disappears into the storm drain.
And I do everything I can to try and get him out of there. But there's a big metal plate I can't move it. I break all my nails. Start knocking on my neighbours' doors. And one of my neighbours came out and he said, Let me get a crowbar from the garage.
So he and his teenage son came out and they got the metal plate up. And we could see Charlie, who was about six feet down on a little ledge, shivering. And I thought, if he slips off that ledge, we've lost him. And so the dad said, here's what we're going to do. My son is tall and skinny.
I'm going to hold him by the ankles and lower him down. That boy's now in my will, by the way. I'm going to lower him down. And he's going to. And I said, just whenever you get to him, if he barks or bites you, please just hold on and don't let go.
And he rescued my little dog. But I imagine, it's just my imagination, a day in heaven's courts where God the Father said to Jesus, I'm going to lure you down into the darkness. and they're not going to treat you well. Great analogy.
Okay. Sheila, again, I said this before, but your ability to bridge a common everyday story into a spiritual element, a spiritual truth, is great. I think that's why so many people connect with your storytelling and your ability to help us. See that connection in this life.
Sometimes, again, the busyness of life gets obscured, and we need those reminders from people that are constantly looking to say, you know what? That reminds me of heaven, and it's beautiful.
So, thank you for those reminders today. Let's come back next time and get more into those questions if you can. Thanks, Jim. What an amazing conversation with Sheila Walsh. And you know, I think Sheila losing her dad at just five years old was devastating.
I lost my mom at age nine, and it isn't something you ever get over. Sheila has an amazing ability to take that pain that she experienced and provide hope to the person who feels hopeless in that moment. That's why her book is called The Hope of Heaven, and that's the hope we have in Jesus Christ. If you don't have that hope, get in touch with us. We have counselors who will pray with you, and we have a great online resource called Coming Home that will give you next steps for making Jesus Christ the Lord of your life.
There's far more in Sheila's book, The Hope of Heaven, that we couldn't cover today. We're going to come back next time to do a little bit more digging. Yeah, but don't wait to get your copy when you make a donation of any amount to support this ministry. Just request Sheila's book, The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity. Changes everything.
We'll send that to you as our way of saying thank you for partnering with us in ministry. You know, John, a data point that I love to follow is how many people are coming to Christ through Focus on the Family each and every year.
Well, last year, we saw 173,000 people come to Christ through Focus on the Family. That is awesome. I think it's the core metric for us. And for those who support us, you're in this as well. That's part of the harvest that we're doing together.
When you give financially to the ministry of Focus on the Family, either monthly or one-time gift, you become part of that work. And here's why John said, don't wait. It's almost the end of July, and we're looking for 1,200 monthly donors to partner with us in ministry for families across the world. By July 31st, when you give a monthly gift of $30 or more, we'll send you a Focus on the Family branded tumbler, just like the ones we use here in the studio, and a four-ounce bag of my special blend, whole bean coffee.
Now, John, it's not like, I don't know what that even means, a special blend. John ends up blending. It's a sort of beans from a variety of countries. This is a single origin from Guatemala. You could tell who the coffee expert is.
But anyway, if you sign up, we'll send you these things to say thank you. And we'll send you a copy of Sheila's great book, The Hope of Heaven. It's a great deal, but we're only able to offer this until July 31st.
So contact us with a monthly gift of $30 or more, and you'll get all these great goodies. Yeah, donate today and take advantage of this terrific offer and get your copy of the Hope of Heaven as well. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. Or check the show notes for the details. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the great conversation with Sheila Walsh and once again, help your family thrive in Christ.
Next year marks 50 years of ministry for focus on the family, encouraging families and helping them thrive in Christ every day. How has God used focus on the family to strengthen your marriage, to guide you in your parenting, maybe to bring hope in a difficult season? We want to hear your story. Call now and share how Focus on the Family has made an impact in your life. You'll find the link in the show notes.
