Mm. Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve?
Well, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family helps couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward every marriage intensive. Visit hoperestored.com slash marriage dash investment. What do you mean we don't talk?
When was the last time we sat down and just had a conversation? I was crying out loud. What do you think we're doing now? I could be watching the game. I could be playing the computer.
It's your silly game, okay? Fine. Alone. I usually do. Hmm, well, maybe you and your spouse know conflict like that all too well.
Like you've memorized that pattern and those habits and the dance steps. And every time you have a disagreement or a tough issue to navigate, there you are again. If you can relate, we have some hope and practical help for you today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us. You know, how many couples have these disagreements and then hours later, days later, You're going, what was our problem?
What were we talking about? What we were fighting about? You can remember the intensity of it, but oftentimes you don't even remember what the noun of the trouble was. You know, what was the subject? And that's because we're reacting out of a dysfunction somewhere that we learned.
I mean, it's a trigger, right? And we're pushing each other's buttons. That's one of the things I am way too good at with Jean, at pushing that button. And I feel bad about it, but it's almost like a reflex. You know, when she says something to me, I just go bing and then boom, she reacts to that.
And then off to the races we go.
Now, you would think after being married 39 years, we'd have some of this figured out. And we do, and we're getting better, but it still comes up. You know, it just pops its ugly head. And then we got to say, I'm sorry, will you forgive me, which is all good, but why not go there in the first place, right? And today we're going to give you some tools to be able to recognize those patterns.
In your life, and then how to maybe respond with the adult brain that God has given us. Yeah, Ron and Nan Deal are here. Ron is back here. He's joined us a number of times for a variety of conversations. He's a marriage and family therapist, probably best known for his work with step families.
His wife, Nan, is a former teacher and travels, and they speak together at marriage conferences. And together, they've written a terrific resource called The Mindful Marriage: Create your best relationship through understanding and managing yourself. And you can learn more about our guests and get a copy of this resource. The details are in the show notes. Ron, welcome back.
Nan, welcome for the first time. It's great to have you. Thank you. It's good to be here. It's always a little more difficult when the spouse shows up for this kind of interview, right?
It's going to be difficult. Because we sound so brilliant as husbands or as just a wife, but when we're together, it's accountability time. I think Gene might say, Yeah, you could write the book, The Mindless Marriage.
So, no, Gene would never say that, but I might think that she's thinking that, but it's so true. Why? Let's start right there. Why? Us, I would say mature Christians walking with the Lord a long time.
How do we still fall Prey to these kinds of traps that we should be, like Paul says, renewing our mind day after day. I've probably been a Christian for 8,000 days of my life, maybe more, and sometimes I still don't know the right way to respond. You guys, we have learned so much about how the brain and body soul works in the last 20 years. Neuroscience has taught us a tremendous amount about the brain and how it functions. You mentioned thirty nine years.
Nan and I have been married thirty nine years. We tell our audiences we're just beginning to figure this thing out. Like why has it taken so long? But I think it's the same reason why most people listening or watching right now Go to church on Sunday, hear truth, and walk out going, that was for me. And nothing changes.
Because there are certain things that are set neurologically within the brain. It is our mind that needs to tell our brain how to behave.
Now think about that for a minute. Paul's talking about renewing your mind. It's your mind that is above your brain. But there's a physicality to your brain that develops neurological pathways that get set. You said a minute ago.
Gene might say something and you reflex. That is exactly the right word. Your brain has a reflex, and in a nanosecond, you go from zero to a hundred because literally what's happened is something in the prefrontal cortex has been triggered by a pain that you've experienced, and your midbrain takes over. It's sort of like your thinking brain goes offline. your midbrain takes over and all it knows to do is fight.
Yeah. And as long as your mind lets your brain go there You will do the same thing you did when you were six or 15 or 25 or you're the immature. 50 or 60. 50 or 60. Really?
But the beautiful thing is, you don't have to end there. And scripture is clear: the flesh wants what the flesh wants. But we're asked and called to walk in the spirit, which. Takes a lot of self-control. Yeah, it does.
Now, you guys have written this book together, and probably the best way to demonstrate some of these things is by your examples. We have lots of them.
So, let's go to that moment when the bottom was dropping out of your marriage, and you felt something. Describe what was going on. What was the phrase or what was said that caught your guys' attention? You want to tell it? I think I showed up with suitcases, and I said, It's either you or me.
Yeah. It was just I was done with that cycle and that dance. Did you even understand it at that time, what was happening? I didn't understand what was happening, but I was. Our boys were.
Preteen at the time. This is 2007, by the way. I was tired of chasing after my husband, who was chasing after so much in ministry and helping so many other people. And here we are. And I have these three young about to be three young men.
And it was just the same thing, and it just kept cycling, and I kept responding, and he kept responding, and it just was. What were we 20-something years in? And it was like, it's either you or me, or get us some help, basically. I mean, that's pretty dramatic. Yeah, he's a therapist.
I'm like, obviously, you can't fix this, so get us some help. To help fix this. Did you ever say to Ron, Ron, you're looking at this stuff all day. Why can't you apply it in our relationship? Yes.
It's not that I haven't heard that, but it is an odd thing because we sit here and we do the things we do. We write the books we write. But even for us, being steeped in the information, we still struggle with the things that you defined at the opening. Absolutely. And what I want to say is, it's not like.
And I think most married couples listening can relate to this. It's not like it's black or white. Either your relationship is all great or all bad. As a matter of fact, most of us, and to that point in our marriage, I would say we were among those who had lots of good, lots of positive. There had been lots of growth and change and.
I had been working on some of me and Family of Origin stuff. But at the end of the day, there were still those dysregulated reactive moments that were really, really bad. It's not like it's Awful all the time. It's just when it was bad, it was bad. Or when I was neglectful, I was neglectful.
And why was I neglectful is really important to the story because I had no idea. I just knew I was working hard and I felt called by God and all that kind of stuff that helps you justify. the intensity of your work. And I certainly didn't understand how abandoned and neglected she felt in that moment. True.
Those were just the surface-level experiences. of what was going on with us. And it's this journey that we recount in this book and discovering restoration therapy and how that opened up all that for us. And then we had to chase the pain, really. And we're going to unpack that today and tomorrow, which is great.
And that'll fill in some of the definitions of the dysfunctional things and those kinds of things. But in this moment, because it's so poignant, and most of us as couples have been to a spot like this, it may not have been bags packed, but it was like, I'm at the end of my rope. We need change. Don't know how to do this. How did you respond?
With Nan's declaration of I need more. I truly believe it was now looking back, Holy Spirit moment of. Because he didn't bow up like he usually does and get defensive. He was like, I'll do whatever it takes. It was more serious for someone.
He got down on his knees and said, I'll do whatever it takes. I don't know what I said that night or how I said it. But you knew I meant business that night. And so the next day, I was deeply convicted in the middle. And she started saying, get us some help.
And I said, okay, who do I trust? And there were a couple of people, and I called, and they were occupied. Unavailable. You did come at me with Terry has a two-year waiting list. I don't think you'll see us.
And I said, Call him right now. And it was like 9 p.m. Oh, wow. And we were in his office the next day. We lived in our community, and I had a deep respect for Dr.
Hargrave.
So we ended up in his office the next morning. And that too had to be God's intervention.
So this is Dr. Terry Hargrave. That's correct. It taught you really this modality. That's right.
And here's how that went down: Dr. Terry Hargrave, and I'm married to American family therapist. I stood at the doorway and I said, No psycho babble stuff right here, the two of you. I want you to land the plane with me. No funny business between the two of you, and I want to be heard.
I can see it in your voice right now, man. That's right. Serious. And Terry said. Go ahead.
And I laid it all out there. And then the next thing was so beautiful. What I've been waiting for. When Terry said what to run, he nailed him. He nailed him to the wall, and I got to watch it.
This is really important how it came down to it. It really is important. And My husband broke down. What did Terry say? And it was the beginning of really humbling.
He was looking at Nance. She had just talked for 20 minutes about all her pain. And he looked at her with a A simple little reflective statement, but he was talking to me. He was looking at her, but he was talking to me. and he said Well, Nan, what I think you're telling me is that the reason Ron threw you under the bus is because God told him to?
Wow. And I instantly knew God would never tell me to do that. That I had been justifying some things out of my own needs. And I don't know why, but it's wrong. And I felt a deep, deep conviction.
They kept talking, and I was just sitting in my little space going, something's wrong, and I gotta deal with me. And that was the beginning of a humbling process. What is this thing? And, you know, it certainly involved Nan as well. It wasn't just me that needed it.
He said something very poignant to me as well. He looked me straight in the eye and he said, if you will allow God. to heal all of this brokenness in you. It'll be the most beautiful thing that will come out of your life. And what did you feel inside when he said that?
It's going to be impossible or okay, I'm willing? I had no idea what he was saying at that moment because. I had so much brokenness. and I thought I could take care of it. And not allow God.
I couldn't trust God with it. It was too much from family to Ron. And I just sat there and went, I don't know. And I didn't know what he was saying to me till years later. Wow.
You know, we have something called Hope Restored. It's a marriage intensive. We talk about it often. And the one question on the intake side, when these couples are hurting desperately, like where you guys are at, and they start the application process, they'll ask them one question: Do you believe God can work a miracle in your marriage? If they say no, they don't get in.
Because what we have found is that basic. Ounce. Of hope is what's required. That's right. For that failure rate, you know, if you're already in a place where not even God can work a miracle, you don't have a chance.
But if you can say, and it usually goes like this, and then you'll be able to relate to this, yeah, God's the only one because my husband's such a jerk, but that's hope. That's saying God, I think, can work that miracle. And that's the difference. And that's where you guys were at. And that's so beautiful.
Let me ask you, Ron, you know, people listening, we got the whole spectrum, people that respect A PhD in psychology, and then people that are theologically rooted and saying, you know, I don't. I don't know that psychology delivers that much. It could be psychobabble. Exactly what you said, Nan. But Dr.
Hargrave introduced you to this restoration therapy, which really is rooted in 2 Corinthians 5, I believe.
So connect that for the skeptic, the listener, the viewer who's going, eh, I don't know about that. But the study of science is really the study of God's creation. When it gets down to it, people will manipulate that. But when we match these things, which of course Dr. Dobson did as a PhD in child development, and so many who have come behind him now, that they're both Christian and experts in these areas, you can pick up patterns that God has created.
Absolutely. All truth is God's truth. We know medical science truth that we all live by every single day when you go to the doctor and he or she says, do this, don't do that, take this, don't take that. Like we're trusting a lot. In medical science.
And is there a God behind all of that that makes all of that make sense? Absolutely. And I think the social sciences are very similar to that. They will always. Biblical truth is the ultimate truth.
It will always point us in the right direction. And any other truth that's discoverable, if we could say it that way, will line up ultimately with biblical truth. That's why I said what I said earlier about we've learned more about the mind and the brain and the distinctiveness there and how it works. It's adding more layers to our understanding of the flesh. As Nan said in Romans 7, Paul said, Why do I keep on doing the things that I don't want to do?
I'm so glad he wrote that. Me too. I mean, thank you, Paul. Hallelujah. Like, seriously, that's one of the best lines of scripture for human beings.
It's the human experience. Like, so here's a guy who knows better. But can't quite get to the living better. There's a gap there. Absolutely, there's a gap.
What is that gap? And why does that gap exist?
Well, we know a little bit more about that gap now, if I could say it that way. When it comes to spiritual walk discipline and walking with God and having self-control to live and obey the way He's asked us to obey, my flesh constantly. And part of that is my brain. Constantly wants to go back to what it knows. And those are old patterns that are really deep-rooted.
They're neurological at this point in my life. Neurological. And that's that restoration therapy. Give us that quick definition.
Okay, so restoration therapy really integrates a number of things that you guys have talked about many times on this program. Attachment theory, what we know about how we work in terms of relationships, how we connect with other people, the neuroscience. And you learn this as a child. Exactly, exactly. And it sets those styles in us that then pour out us as an adult.
But the question is, what do we do about it? And what Dr. Hargrave restoration therapy does. is take all of that know-how. And then merge it with New Testament theology around your old self and your new self.
If there is one thing that we ought to be teaching and preaching in church on a regular basis, it's this reoccurring theme in the New Testament: it is my job as a follower of Jesus to take off my old self, the part of me that is not like Christ. I'm listening to the Spirit. I'm trying to merge my body, soul, mind processes along with the Spirit.
So that I can live out what he has called me to do. There's the gap between my flesh and living by the Spirit, right? This is over and over. Galatians 5, this is Philippians 4, this is Colossians 3, this is Ephesians 4, this is 2 Corinthians, you mentioned. This is over and over.
Take off the old self and put on the new. It just turns out. There's quite a journey, but to do that. And Dr. Hargrave has figured out a process, a system that really helps us navigate that space.
become less and less like our old flesh. and more and more like Christ. And when I do that in the context of my marriage, in the moments when I'm triggered and all my bad self comes out, if I can put on self-control, I can bring a better me to the next moment in my marriage. And it's transformative for relationships. And Ron, in the book, you use the analogy of being on a trail.
And you talk about kind of this pain cycle and liken it to finding a snake on the trail. A rattlesnake? A rattle snake. I saw a pretty serious snake on a trail one time in Arkansas, of all places. What were you thinking of when you wrote that?
Well, I was probably reacting the way you were reacting. You know, it's funny, John, when you see a rattlesnake, we were walking through a canyon with all of our kids on this occasion. You don't have to form a committee and say, We have a rattlesnake. What should we do about it? No, your mid-brain kicks in.
It's God's gift to us, this fight-or-flight reactivity that says, Danger, danger, Will Robinson. Back up, get away, protect your kids. You don't have to pause and ponder, and that's your brain will take care of you. That's the good news. The bad news is that in life My brain doesn't know the difference between a rattlesnake and Nan's criticism.
Yeah. They both bite. They both bite. And my brain doesn't know the difference. All it knows is danger, danger.
What do you do, Ron?
Well, in my case, and there's four different ways people respond in fight or flight at that point in time, but for me, I go into either blame or defensiveness or control. Like, I'm either going to control her. I'm going to perform and get better at something so that she has no reason to be upset with me, or I'm going to counterblame and somehow make it to be about her.
Now, all of that stuff that I do, here's the crazy thing, guys. It's all an effort to restore peace. Within me and with between us in our us-ness, as we like to call it.
So think about that. That really doesn't make sense, and it's not helping. It doesn't feel right in it. Rattlesnake criticism. I need to defend myself and prove to her that she's wrong about me.
So now I'm arguing her into liking me, which never works. Thank you very much. And now she's even more upset because I'm not listening, I'm not considering what she had to say. And we escalate our negative behavior. Am I getting to peace?
No. I'm getting to more conflict. And it's because my dysregulation Triggers, her dysregulation, and there we go. We're off and running. If I don't learn how to manage that nanosecond between rattlesnake.
and my response. Things get worse. You know, when you say that, it sounds kind of ridiculous. I mean that very respectfully, but it is the mechanism. It is the mechanism.
And we can't distinguish that.
So, you know, when we're talking about. slowing down or taking a step back emotionally. How do you help yourself from Not noticing the difference.
Well, you have to understand what I normally do. Like, one of the beautiful things about. This book and Dr. Hargrave's work is that you are going to do some exercises and you're going to map and sequence. What are the triggers for me?
What's the pain point? And what does it mean to me? And what do I do with it? That's called coping. And once you see that, It doesn't mean you can instantly change it.
You need to have a mechanism, we call that the four steps, where you learn how to talk through creating a new response instead of just doing the same old stuff. And all of that is to help you self-regulate your emotions. And I mean, the biblical word is self-control. Yeah. I got to put on self-control when I feel rattlesnakes in my marriage.
And here's the crazy thing. Most of us spend our entire life Trying to get the spouse who you're the rattlesnake, so you're the one who has to change, and now I go with some agenda of trying to fix her. The subtitle of this book is Understanding and Managing Yourself. Like, it's my reactivity that I am in charge of, not her reactivity. And that is a game-changer moment that helps couples who often get caught in this escalation to begin to unwind it.
I was triggered yesterday coming here. All right. I was in pain. John will do that to you. Coming here, coming here with my husband, who is this is his seventh time here.
Uh-huh.
Alright, so in the previous times coming here. Ron would be a week in his head before he'd come here. then he'd come here and he'd do his thing. Unavailable while he's here, maybe other meetings after that outflow after that. And then as he comes home, he's still in his head about being here because it might lead to something else, to something else, to something else.
Debriefing in as well.
So, coming here is a trigger of pain, abandonment. Wow. Where are you? Yeah. And we're coming here, and I'm thinking.
I had to be very mindful on the plane as I'm touching down, and he's talking about, well, we'll do this, and Jim will say this, and he's doing all the things, and I'm thinking, I'm feeling something rising in me. I'm feeling triggered. And I had to stop and go: okay, what am I feeling? What would old Nan normally do? Yeah.
Old Nan would normally really get critical, and oh, I know exactly what you'll do while you're here, or blame, or whatever, take control of the situation. And I had to stop. Pray? Get grounded and say, Okay, Holy Spirit, I need some help here. I know you're my helper.
I normally would do this, but I know that I'm God's child. I know that you've given us this opportunity together. And I know that I can walk this out with humility and with the spirit's help. You know, and the key there, I'm hearing you, Nan, is you have to do this probably several times a day because of that triggering mechanism. It's not just once in a while.
These are patterns that we've developed. And I think, as a couple, how to handle that together. You know, Gene and I have one. We go to dinner and we have a pleasant time, and then she wants to bring up family stuff. You know, the boys aren't.
Doing something that we would like to see them do. And it can end in a not-so-warm place, right? But it's a pattern, and I'm sure I have my patterns, and I'm less likely to see those as I am to see hers, right? Is that part of the deal? Yes, absolutely.
We're very in tune picking up on their problem. Exactly. We are super in tune with the spec in the other person's eye, Matthew 7, but rarely do we notice that log in our eye and take responsibility for it. I gotta say, I want to compliment her. I mean, listen to what she went through.
Listen to the internal, what's the truth. I know what the pain is. I know the truth. And I'm going to choose to respond differently in this situation. Wow.
Right, so by the time she and I begin to process, yeah, this is sort of like Coming back to Ron's lover. Mm. Wow, like heavy, right? by the time we begin to process that, she's not coming at me uh as a rattlesnake. She's coming gentle, she's coming soft, She's talking through.
She's taking ownership of. And by the way, we've spent many years working through all this pain together.
So I'm quick to go, yeah, I totally see how this is a space that's difficult for you. And I get that, and I see that. And I'm over here saying, Yeah, I've been trying to manage me and not be super control guy and come and perform like I always used to do. Right. By the way, I was chasing my identity in my work.
To be able to relax and come here and just say, Yeah, we're just having a conversation with Jim and John. This is not a big deal, puts me in a different place. See how we're both understanding and managing ourselves, and that allows us to then bring a better us to one another. It's a game.
Well, some of it is understanding the why. You know, she needs a space, in our case, to be able to express her concerns. And it just seems to be that moment, and I've seen that pattern, but obviously, there's. Not enough time in the rest of our day, or something's going on that this is the place where. And for you, Nan, that's also true.
And this has been so good. It really has. Thank you for being with us. And I do want to come back next time and pick up the conversation to give people more insight into what you've discovered. Man, isn't it exciting for 20, 30-somethings who are married to say, hey, let's learn from these older couples' mistakes, right?
But in the meantime, get a copy of this great book, The Mindful Marriage, Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself. And to all of us mismanaged people, amen. It's our goal here at Focus to equip you and your spouse, to give you those tools that you need to have a wonderful, healthy, thriving in Christ marriage. And I think this is one of the best resources on that marriage topic. These resources do cost money, so we depend on your partnership to help us reach more husbands.
And wives with this good news message. And according to our research, more than a half a million marriages have benefited from focus resources just in the last 12 months. And I'm really proud of that. I mean, that's reach and impact that we're doing together. And if I could ask you to consider a gift to the ministry, that's how it gets done.
It's not our twinkle in our eye that can make this happen. The power of the Holy Spirit, and funded by friends of the ministry, is how we change lives.
So let's do it together. Let's save more marriages. Yeah, make a donation as you can, either a monthly pledge or a one-time gift. And we'll say thanks by sending the book to you. And you can donate, get the book, and also connect with one of our counselors when you call 800-232-6459.
That's 800, the letter A, and the word family. or check the show notes for details. And thanks for joining us today for this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Is your marriage struggling?
Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve?
Well, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family helps couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward every marriage intensive. Visit hoperestored.com slash marriage dash investment. Yeah.
