Mm. Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve?
There's still hope. Hope Restored marriage intensives by focus on the family help couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/slash marriage-investment. I will deliver your kids to the promises that I have for them.
And I just felt God say to me, you might be a single mom, but you are not parenting alone. Brandy Wilson is back with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to share insights and experiences on how divorce impacted her family and how God showed up. And has brought restoration to her personally. Thank you for joining us. I'm John Fuller.
John, last time we talked about the devastation of divorce. I saw that through my five-year-old eyes, watching my mom and dad go through that. But I didn't have a lot of information. No. Here one day, gone tomorrow was kind of my dad's story.
But we talked about the grief, the anger, the shame, the loneliness, and we ended with this idea of gratitude. And if you missed last time, download it, go get the app, and you can listen that way. All the episodes are there. But it'd be really good to get that perspective from our guest, Brandy, last time. And then we're going to pick up today and talk about the co-parenting battles, what it means to be a single parent, how do you trust God, and all of those things, and hopefully come out.
healthy. And moving ahead. Yeah, it was a really rich conversation last time. And as was noted then, Brandi Wilson is an author. She's the mom of three boys, three young men.
Three young men. And a life coach. Brandy has written a book called Better Than Okay. Finding hope and healing after your marriage ends. Brandy, welcome back for day two.
Appreciate it. Thank you. Happy to be with you guys again. And we said it last time, just your openness. It's what connects people.
You know, this person's real. For the viewer or the listener that hasn't Listen to the last program. I mean, you and your husband are riding this rocket ship of building churches in Tennessee. And how many campuses in the end? Five?
There were five. Five campuses. How many people were coming? It was about 8,000 people a week. I mean, that's a big deal.
And it was very public. I mean, obviously, you guys are leaders in your community. And then you filed for divorce for reasons that were justifiable biblically with your husband's continued infidelity. Let me ask you about friends in this moment because, you know, one of the things here at Focus, we're dealing with this every day. And we have counselors that are talking with people that would like to talk to them.
By the way, if you're in that spot, call us. But everybody has a perspective on your marriage. And I'm sure in your position as the pastor's wife. People are coming at you with You're too sad, you're too happy, you're too whatever. But did you experience that?
Like, like everybody's an expert in parenting and advertising. And I would say at the moment of the breakup of marriage, did you encounter people that were giving advice or telling you, hey, don't be so light-handed about this, be heavy-hearted about it. It's almost like they need something from you to comfort them about your divorce. Yeah. Yeah.
I think people love to give their opinion on what you should be doing or should not be doing in times like that. And it's one of the reasons I felt it was very important for me to kind of shrink my life down to where I talked to three friends on a regular basis and my therapist. And these were three friends who I trusted who had walked through life with me, who knew what was going on. There was longevity of friendship there. And then my therapist I'd been with for a while.
And I really took some time. To figure out what I myself needed to do, that was a very important question for me to start to answer: what do I need? I had spent a lot of time taking care of the needs of my ex-husband and my children, as I should as a mom, but in the midst, I had kind of gotten lost to what I myself needed.
So that became a super point of growth for me to just reflect on what do I need. And if I allowed all of those voices to speak into it, it brought confusion. And there was enough confusion going on.
So I really just spent, gosh, several months really only talking to those five people on a regular basis in order to be able to be in touch with myself and what I felt like God wanted for me moving forward. In coaching women, which you do, when you have that woman, maybe in a similar circumstance, do you give her perspective on that? How do you deal with a friend that's given you way too much information? Do you engage it? Say, you know, Betty, I appreciate this, but this isn't really helpful to me right now.
We work on responses just like you were talking about, to have a memorized two or three sentence response when people ask what you're going to say. Just because it takes off the pressure, you don't have to think on the spot. It allows you to be able to communicate with honesty and also be direct and give an answer that is respectful without airing too much dirty laundry.
So, yeah, we work on, let's come up with two or three sentences that you can memorize and you can give in situations like that so you're not caught off guard. That's really good. Do you have one that starts with bless your heart? Speaking from the South, of course.
Well, bless your heart. No, I mean, it's funny, but it's true. Let's speak to the boys. I mean, this is your experience and this is their experience. That idea of the agony of divorce, how did your boys, again, give us their age back when this was happening?
Happening because moms and dads are going to connect with this. My heart goes out to any child that has parents going through this. But how did they respond? And did you do anything to like alleviate? Guilt that they might have felt that somehow they can, you know, kids do this.
How did I contribute to this? Yeah. My kids at the time of separation would have been 9, 11, and 14. Critical years. Yeah, critical years.
So, two in elementary school, one in middle school. And yeah, they were devastated. It happened very quickly.
Now, my ex-husband and I had done an in-house separation.
So by the time he resigned, we'd been living separately in the same house for over six months.
So, you know, my kids. We were aware and we had communicated that something was going on. But one of my sons told his therapist that he didn't know what happened because mom and dad got along and then dad got a toothache and now we were getting divorced.
So that's how he processed it. That's how he processed. Dad said he was sleeping in the basement because he had a toothache and couldn't sleep in the same bed with mom anymore.
So that's how he processed what was going on. Dad got a toothache and now they're getting divorced. What I ended up finding out on the back end was my two older children had actually seen a lot of communication on my ex-husband's phone that very clearly communicated what was going on.
So they had more information than I actually had at the time and seeing these text messages that kids should not have seen.
So I think some of those pieces helped take off that responsibility of what did we do and why is this happening to mom and dad. I'm also a big proponent of giving your kids age-appropriate truth. You know, we're never going to ask a four year old to carry a fifty pound suitcase, but we can give a four year old an appropriately sized backpack. Um, and then as they grow, they can carry more. And the same as Is true with giving your kids age-appropriate truth.
If kids aren't given age-appropriate truth, They're like us, and they create stories in their head. And those stories usually blame themselves.
So that's why I think it's really important. And I think that clarity is so good. I remember when my mom was dying of cancer, you know, it was the weirdest thing because they didn't want to tell me, the nine-year-old. Yeah. And so you're kind of putting pieces together as a child, but you're not sure if you're seeing and hearing the things that are accurate.
But there's something that's going on, and you can tell. And in my case, you know, nobody took the time, and I'm sure it was awkward for my older siblings and for my mom and my stepdad. But, you know, just to tell me this is what's happening.
So I went from. Mom had a toothache basically to mom's dead. And that's a big leap. Right. You know, to not include me in the fact that she's sick.
We're not sure what's going to happen and begin that dialogue. And I'm a big proponent of age-appropriate disclosure to children. And I think we do more harm. I mean, every time your son goes to the dentist now, he's probably going to have this PTSD thing. You know, it's weird how that stuff connects.
You know, we've referenced a bit about being engaged with a counselor. And I just need to make that connection and for you to. Talk about that spiritual link to good Christian biblical counseling. That's what we're talking about. Not some strange thing.
And just speak to that benefit for you to have that counselor, both for you and for your boys. Yeah, it was so beneficial to have someone who was not living in the day-to-day of the trauma and tragedy that we were experiencing to help us see the situation clearly. I feel like that's lots of times what a good, solid, biblically based Christian counselor brings: they bring a perspective that you aren't allowed to see or aren't able to see in the midst of that trauma.
So I did a weekly therapy session with my therapist. I continued with her for Eight years almost, and then she moved and recently started with something else, but someone else. But I believe, yeah, having a therapist for you, having a therapist for your kids is super important to help them process, to help them navigate. The therapy center that we used in Nashville, lots of time, therapy for my kids would look like shooting hoops with the therapist in the backyard, or it's art and it's you know integrated into what they are typically enjoying doing, sports and art and creating things.
So, to be able to find those people who are biblically based to help you as you navigate your kids through the grief and trauma they're experiencing. You know, in that context, the battle I would imagine, I haven't been through something like this, but I would imagine the battle of biting your tongue and making sure you're not dishonoring your ex-spouse is tough because. You know, you want the, you could justify things like, I want the record to be straight. I want my kids to know exactly the truth. Even in age-appropriate ways, that could end up.
Tipping bitterness and resentment toward your ex, where your kids don't want, they can't carry that baggage. Yes. How did you manage that with your young men, your boys, to make sure that you it feels odd, but to not disparage your ex-husband in that divorce process? Yeah, you're right. I think it is something that every parent needs to work hard on to not say negative things about the other partner, the other parent.
Our kids view themselves as half mom and half dad.
So if you're talking negatively about dad, The kid automatically feels that reflection and that negativity projected onto them.
So I think it's important to be able to stay above board in what you're saying. And that's not easy because there are situations where the truth is not told or truth is twisted.
So I think to be able to also come to them in those situations with truth in a way that is not dishonoring. For instance, I remember a conversation with one of my sons when he was a teenager and he called to tell me the difficulty he was having in communication with his dad. And I was allowed to affirm what is going on in his life. I didn't want him to be the type of adult I was when I got divorced, that I didn't trust myself. I didn't trust my experience.
I didn't trust my intuition.
So I was able to affirm, yeah, sometimes communication with your dad is really difficult. I understand that because that's what it was like being married to him. And I'm sorry. Give him some tools. Maybe try this, this, and this.
But to be able to affirm what their experience is so they trust themselves in a way that isn't dishonoring can happen. It actually helps them to be able to move into the relationship they have with that other parent in a healthy way because they're able to see the situation clearly. And that's so good to help that child understand that he's seeing he or she is seeing things accurately. I think for me, that was a big dose of confidence for me, because in the end, as I moved through all of that, I could see that my assessments were accurate. 9, 10, 11.
And that gave me great confidence about how I read the world, how I view the world, how I process relationships. You know, it's not 100%, let me tell you, but you start to develop that confidence as a child. And it's so good as a mom to say, no, you're saying that accurately. Yes. But here's how we got to move ahead.
You mentioned Joshua 3 and how that really helped you scripturally. What was Joshua 3 about and how did it help you? Yeah, it was during my separation when I was battling a lot of fear and I sat down to have my quiet time that morning and I was reading in Joshua 3 and that's when the Israelites have been brought to the edge of the Jordan River, which is at flood stage. And the promised land is on the other side of the Jordan and they have been wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. And I had read this story over and over.
I'd probably done it on a flannel board in Sunday school when I was a kid. But I saw it. Differently this time because when I read that story, what had happened was the Ark of the Covenant, the priests were carrying the Ark of the Covenant, and they got to the edge of the Jordan. And the Bible says that when the priest put his first foot into the river, the Jordan piled up in a heap upstream.
So the priest carried the Ark of the Covenant to the middle of the Jordan. They stood on dry ground while all of Israel passed through to the promised land. And I think when I compared that story to where I was in my parenting, one of the things I was most terrified by was spiritually leading my kids.
So when I correlate it to that story in my head, I had to lead my kids through the wilderness. I had to have enough faith to take that first step into the Jordan. I had to then stand on dry ground in the center while all of my kids passed through into the promises that God had for their lives. And I was overwhelmed. From feeling like I had to do it all.
And I was having this moment with God: I don't think I can do it. And I just felt him press into my heart because you're doing things I haven't asked you to do. Your job as their parent is to stand on dry ground and hold my truth for your kids, to stand on dry ground and trust that I'm going to lead them through the wilderness, to trust that I'm going to hold back the waters of disappointment in their life, to trust that I will deliver your kids to the promises that I have for them. And I just felt God say to me, you might be a single mom, but you are not parenting alone. Wow.
And it just brought such relief to everything I was experiencing as the person who was spiritually leading my kids.
So, yeah, that was a moment where I had the clarity of this is tough and you're carrying a weight, but you are not parenting alone. God loves your kids more than you do. And just as he is going to use this experience in your life to bring glory and purpose. He can do with the same with your kids' lives. I have to trust that he is going to use this divorce in their lives in order to craft the story that he has for them.
Brandy, let me ask you that fear. You know, in tech families, moms can be very fearful, fearful of what their kids are becoming or not becoming. And so, just with the mom's heart in general, how did you? beat back their those feelings of fear, what would happen to your sons without, you know, the the normal presence of a father, kind of a normal marriage for them to be able to watch. How did you beat back those fears?
Yeah, I um that was a tough one because you do wonder what kind of scars are going to be left on their hearts that are going to impact their relationships in the teenage years and as an adult. And I think for me, I did have a voice in my life, a pastor and his wife, who I'm good friends with in Austin. And he, as a child, around the age of nine, experienced the divorce of his parents. His dad was super involved in the church and it was a scandal. And he and I had a lot of mutual friends.
And during the course of the divorce, there were three significant times where I crossed paths with With mutual friends, and they would look at me and they would say, Hey, I saw Mac last week, and he said to tell you the boys are going to be okay. And I would be like, Okay. No, he wants you to know the boys are going to be okay. And it felt like such a Significant message of you have to trust that God has your kids. And we do, as moms, worry about everything.
And to get that, you know, affirmation from a man who had walked through something very similar at very similar ages, who's now serving God in the church, was just a reminder that God can use those stories. And I think for me, I recognize there's a lot of things I can't control. In this situation, but I can control that I'm not going to give into the spirit of fear. Because when I give in to fear, then I build these walls of protection around me rather than trusting God to protect us and to carry our stories and to go ahead of us when we're in those situations that are tough in order to prepare the next steps in our journey. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Did you, in that regard, did you, were there men around you or in the church that were able to speak into your son's lives as well?
Did you ever find that? Kind of connection with anybody? Yeah, our next door neighbor at the time of the divorce was also a pastor. He pastored another church in Nashville, and my kids adore him. And he became super significant, and he was outside in the front yard playing football with my kids on a regular basis.
Once dad moved out, my oldest son was good friends with one of his sons, and he traveled with them. And when we stepped back into church again, we actually went to his church. It was smaller than our church, but it felt safe because we knew he and his wife and his family.
So that is the first place that we attended when we had left Cross Point. And I'll never forget leaving that Sunday. My middle son would have been around 11 or 12. And we got in the car and we're driving to lunch. And he says, you know what I like about Pastor John?
I said, what? And he said, he's the same person in our front yard playing football as he is on stage. And I said, You are so insightful. I am so happy you see that. Yep, that Pastor John is the same in our front yard as he is on stage.
And that was a big moment for my kid to verbalize that they saw the difference in what they had experienced with their dad and what we had experienced with the pastor next door. Yeah, that's so good. That's one of the compliments I get from my sons. I love it. Is it really?
Dad, you're the same no matter if you're at focus or here at home. And that's a good way for all of us to be, right? Be who you are. Yeah, be consistent, even if it needs work. Yes, that's for sure.
You know, you talk about the importance with women, particularly, to have a good network. You've referenced it last time and today. Build on that a little bit for that woman that's listening that may be in that spot right now. But she's alone. She doesn't have the network.
How do you recognize that? Then how do you develop it? Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the first questions that I ask.
When I start working with a new client in coaching, is tell me what your support system looks like because it is that valuable to have people around you who can lift you up and remind you of who you are when it comes to situations like this. As far as building it, you have to work to build that. It's not like I went through this divorce and my support system just showed up. I had spent years doing life with these people and walking through lots of ups and downs.
So you have to be one who's willing to engage and to reach out to people. I think lots of times isolation feels safe because. When we're walking through something dark, there are questions we don't have answers to, and there are next steps that we aren't aware of. What's going to happen?
So, to be able to choose transparency and choose vulnerability in the midst of walking through hard times is going to be super important.
So, you have to be willing to reach out and engage and find those people who you want to do life with, you want to support, and that will also support you when things aren't going easily. Let's go to the title, Better Than Okay. It kind of sounds like You know, you can really be better than okay. And is it okay to be better than okay as a Christian after divorce? Yes, absolutely.
Yes. I actually ended up with that title because when I was working with my editor and we were talking about conversations I have with women who are walking through divorce, one of the first questions they ask is, Will I be okay? And I had, I personally have gotten to a point where I answer authentically by saying, You're going to be better than okay. And yeah, that's the truth. I think, you know, in Christian circles, the phrase is, Used a lot, it's okay to not be okay.
And that's true as well. There are going to be times in our lives where we're not going to be okay, we're not going to feel okay. And there are going to be seasons in our life where, yeah, we are better than okay because we have clung to the hope that God provides us in those times of suffering. We have allowed Him to transform our life and to make us into a new creation where we can walk a different path for our future.
Well, in the simple truth. It's okay. Don't feel guilty for feeling okay and better. Right. But some women would, right?
You know. Yes. I feel guilty feeling healthy. Yeah. You know, I shouldn't.
Right. Isaiah 61. Let's end here. This is great. You just are so good at inculcating scripture into all of this, you know, bringing scripture into the whole season.
So, Isaiah 61, right at the end here, why did that scripture speak to your heart? Yeah, I think it speaks to the prosperity that God has for our life in a way that, you know, prosperity is not usually. Right. It's not the Rolls-Royce. Right.
No, it is the fact that God does have a life of abundance for you when you walk with Him. I think, you know, when we talk about healing from something like divorce or death or, you know, any significant trauma or tragedy in our life, it is often easy to. To be able to neglect that the impact that has had and move forward without doing that healing work. And the reality is, could God do healing work in our life without us? Yeah, he totally could.
He's God. But he desires to do that healing work, that transformation with us. God wants to partner with us. He wants every day for us to join hands in that healing that we're doing. And I think that's the prosperity of our lives: to be able to walk hand in hand with God every day as that healing is happening so that we do feel closer to Him in the midst of our suffering and our trials than we might on those days where we're feeling better than okay.
Yeah, He wants our will being us, right? He wants our will to be part of that healing process. Brandy, this has been so good. Thank you so much again for that vulnerability and being open with this. It, you know, it takes time to be able to get to this place.
And then writing a book, Better Than Okay, Finding Hope and Healing After Your Marriage Ends, that had to be a journey just writing this. Yes, it was. It's compiling it. But again, it's here for people who are hurting. And if that's where you're at, or maybe you have some friends, you're going, wow, they need to see this, read this, get a hold of us.
If you can make a gift of any amount monthly or a one-time gift, we'll send it as our way of saying thank you for helping other marriages because we don't pay shareholders. All that goes back into ministry, right? In addition to that, if you can't afford it, call us. It's not about the dollars that's helpful, but if you can't. afford it, we'll get it into your hands and trust that others will take care of the cost of that.
Then also the two core things, we have caring Christian counselors. If you're hurting for whatever reason, get a hold of us. We have counselors who can talk with you and point you in a better direction, pray with you, provide other resources for you. And then we have Hope Restored, which is our four-day intensives for marriages that are in trouble. It is, I think, the best thing going on.
We go back to those couples two years later to find out how they're doing. 80% of them are still married and doing better. And one last thing: University of Chicago survey years ago took two groups of people. You'll find this interesting, Brandy. They took a group of couples who are headed to divorce and said, Go through with your divorce.
They took another group that were headed to divorce and said, Are you willing to go to counseling? And they looked at those two groups and over a five-year period. And the irony was the number was the same. 85% of those that went through with the divorce regretted it. Isn't that interesting?
And on the other side, 85% were grateful and they had a better marriage.
So, the point being there: if you can fight for your marriage, it's a good outcome. But as Brandy has expressed these last couple of days, if it's not going to work, and especially if your spouse is not in a healthy place, there's still life after that divorce.
So, thank you for being with us. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, and to access any of the resources that we have to help you at whatever point you're at, get a hold of us when you click the links in the show notes or give us a call, 800, the letter A and the word family. And on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve? There's still hope.
Hope Restored marriage intensives by focus on the family help couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/slash marriage-investment. Mm.
