Mm. Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve?
Well, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family helps couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward every marriage intensive. Visit hoperestored.com slash marriage dash investment. I mean, there's many, many things that we want to leave behind as a legacy, but I think the biggest one is that marriage is awesome.
Like, you know, even in the hard moments, marriage is wonderful. It is a gift. and that there is hope even in the hard times. That's something that we always wanna point to. But I think for every couple, just coming back to that reason that God brought them together, because I think in hard seasons, especially those broken seasons we talked about, we lose sight of that because we're just in critical condition, we're just trying to survive, right?
But in order to thrive, we have to think about that bigger picture. That's Ashley Willis, and she and her husband Dave join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we're glad you're here. I'm John Fuller. John, here's a book title that should grab everybody.
Do marriage better. Who doesn't want that book? And I have prepped for the show. There is so much good stuff in here. Here's the best part, the subtitle, Seven Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection.
And our guests are talking about little things you can do that make big differences. And I think that's been my observation about marriage. When Gene and I hit a tough spot, it's usually because one of us has said something a little off that sets the other one askew. Why did you say it like that? That kind of hurt my feelings, whatever it might be.
And if we could be a little more thoughtful about how we communicate and in other areas of our lives, how we interact with each other, man, you could have a marriage that is the best. And that's what we're aiming for today with our guests. Yeah, Dave and Ashley Willis, our conference speakers and relationships. Relationship coaches and podcast hosts. They've been in full-time marriage ministry for quite a long time now.
They've got four boys, and they've written a terrific book called, As You Said, Jim, Do Marriage Better: Seven Simple Shifts for a Deeper Connection. And we want to encourage you to swing by the show notes below. Click the link there to get a copy of the book and to learn more about the Willis's ministry. David Ashley, welcome back. Good to have you here.
So glad to be here. Always. Always. It's good to see you guys. Listen, I was serious about that in terms of the seven simple shifts.
That's what you guys are talking about: these simple shifts. It can sound too easy.
So let's cover those seven just quickly and then we'll begin to dive into them. And hopefully, couples can walk away from this and go, oh man, we can make a 20% improvement in our marital relationship. That would be good. Absolutely. That would be good.
And that was really the heart of the book. I think sometimes we overcomplicate things. I overcomplicate things. You think? And, you know, you think, oh, I've got to lose 100%.
It's like, well, maybe you could start just by that, wouldn't you? That wasn't the idea I had in mind, but you know, baby steps. Baby steps. Baby steps. First hundred pounds.
Yeah, so in marriage, it's the same way. We think, oh, I've got to, you know, if marriage was a weight loss goal, I've got to lose. 100 pounds in our marriage to get where we want it to be. It's like, ooh. maybe just take smaller bite-sized steps to make simple shifts that over time really will lead to those big payoffs.
And the areas, the shifts that we're talking about are just those main areas that affect every marriage, areas like money, communication, sex, parenting, legacy. Like these are things that all couples talk about and deal with. And we've just put together some tools based on working with couples for many years and of course studying what the Bible has to say about marriage and realizing God doesn't want it to be complicated. It doesn't mean that marriage is always easy, but it's not as complicated as we make it. And if we'll do these little shifts, it can make a big difference.
Okay, so we hit some of those themes as people were listening. It went by fast, but I'm sure they caught it. But Ashley, when we start looking at it, communication is really tricky for all kinds of reasons. People, we tend to want to not recognize that we do have some limitations, gender issues. And what I mean by that is men think differently than women.
I mean, the culture in some areas, they're trying to say, no, there's no difference. is a difference. I mean researchers show this when they give kids toys, right? The boys turn them into bombs and explosions and the girls tend to turn it into a tea party. You know, so there's just basic things that we're already set for at two, three, four years old.
And guess what? We pull these things into our teen years, our 20-somethings, and certainly our marriages.
So in looking at that, what's one first step a couple can take to start talking in a way that really builds each other up? Man, we, Gene and I work at this, and yet there are days I just get the F grade.
So how do we do that more consistently? Man, that's such a good question, and we can relate too. We've been married almost 25 years, and it's been a journey. But I will say, early in our marriage, I really made the mistake that a lot of couples make in assuming that Dave processes things the way I do and that he should communicate the way I do. And really, we constantly found ourselves bumping heads.
And just to give an example, I tend to process things as I'm talking. Like I'm talking and I'm processing, and I'm expecting him to do the same. And so, if I had an issue and I would bring it to Dave, I would start talking about it and just kind of just going through it, just drilling him with all these different things that I wanted to address. And he would look at me kind of stunned. And then I would get to the end of my tirade and he would just stare at me and he wouldn't say anything.
And I took it as, oh, you don't care. You don't have anything to say. You don't care. And so then I would be like, you just don't care. And then I would kind of go into the other room.
And then he would come back later after maybe like 30 minutes. And he's like, Ashley, I do care. I just needed time to think. Like, I just needed time to take this. In.
It's overwhelming. I care more than you could have done. I got to process this. But she'd watch so many Hallmark movies where the guy has a script and knows what to say every time. The good-looking lumberjack always knows what to say.
He does. And he's so sensitive and kind. And I didn't have a script. I'm like, I don't know what to do here. And I'm also very literal, too.
Like, one of the things we had to learn in marriage is she would say things to try to soften a request, but really, I would take it literally. Like, she would say things like, hey, Dave, when you get a minute. could you bring me this? And I thought that meant at any point in the day, when you get a minute. When I get a minute.
Young husbands, listen to me. If your wife says when you get a minute, it means now. It means now. It means right now. No one told me this.
She would say, like, we need to do some, we need to mow the yard. And I would think, how are we going to mow the yard? It's not a two-person job. We have a push mower. But I would wait till she was ready to do it with me.
And she would say, Why isn't the yard mowed? And I'd say, well, I thought we wanted to do it together. And she said, why do we do it together? I said, exactly. And so when your wife says we need to do something, guys, it probably means a gentle way of her saying, hey, you need to do this.
And can you please do it? Can you please? And she was being so polite and kind and softening the language. But I was just a Neanderthal that took everything completely literally. And it took us a while just to connect on simple things like that, which we laugh about now, of course.
And then as marriage goes on and communication gets more nuanced and the issues you face might get a little more complex.
So a couple right now is going, okay, so that's where we're at. What is that first step? What is something they can do to. Either say it differently. No, that that's true.
Because I know they're like, Well, that's you know, lawnmower issues are not our thing. I think where we're smarter than Dave.
So can you help us with something that's actually practical? Really, we need we need to come at each other with curiosity. And compassion. And if we can start there and not come at each other with criticism, because I found myself in those hard years of communication, always really having this critical eye. When I shifted to having curiosity, like, well, why is he not speaking?
Is it that maybe I've just landed, you know, these things on him that he needs to think about? Or maybe I'm not being clear about this because clarity is kindness. Like, maybe I just need to be a little more clear. When we have curiosity, it's really hard to be angry about that because we're curious instead of critical. And so I think even just that simple way of having curiosity, it changes how we talk to each other.
Have a curious tone too. It's not just the words you say, it's how you say them. And when you're curious in your tone, it's a little softer because you're trying to inquire about what's going on instead of assuming what's going on. And these are all great concepts. Let me ask you this: you relate to the talk you hear in your head.
Again, we learn things, family of origin, all those things that we grow up with. If you had a negative parent, for example, when you hear your spouse say something like, oh, the chicken seems a little cool, or whatever it might be. And I know a lot of guys are doing the cooking now, so I don't mean it in that way. It's just whoever says something as an observation can be taken as a demeaning comment. Like you're attacking me and my worth, that I'm not good enough.
I didn't do it well enough. Speak to that idea of the words we hear in our head, and how do we arrest those so that we don't let that fly off the handle inside? Ashley's so good at this. In addition to her. long resume already.
She's also a very gifted biblical counselor and and works with people and Helps them with these kind of issues all the time because the voices in our head, that inner monologue, that inner soundtrack, it impacts everything that we do. And a lot of times when your spouse responds in a way where they're hurt by something you said or did, it goes much deeper than what you said or did. It goes to a place of woundedness that they have probably from long before you even came into the picture, where they're carrying this deep insecurity around a certain area that came from growing up in a home maybe where, like you said, there was potentially a negative parent or they felt like as a kid they couldn't do anything right. And they're carrying that into the marriage. And you could say something, not meaning anything by it, but it touches a wound from way back then.
And so when your spouse responds in a way where it doesn't seem like it fits, right? You know, you said something that wasn't meant to cause offense and they seem to get offended or emotional, instead of getting defensive yourself, like she said earlier, get curious, like lean into that. Say, let's talk about that. I didn't mean to hurt you, but let's talk about the nerve that that struck because I want to help. I want to help not do.
That again on my part, but I also want to help you process and work through whatever the root cause of that wound might be. It sounds like diffusing. Yeah. You know, that's the word picture I think of the bomb, the emotional bomb being diffused with great craft. Cut the right wire.
Cut the right wire. Right, right. I don't know which one to cut. But Ashley, let me ask you this: you mentioned tone a while ago. I love the story you had in the book about your dog.
Jean and I were laughing when we read that because we could see your boys describe for the audience what happened because this is something I'm going to try. Oh my gosh.
Well, we have our little dog, Chi Chi. She's a Chiweene, supposedly. That's what the town is. Yeah, supposedly that's a Chihuahua and a Dachshund mix.
Okay, so they call that a Chiweenie. And our boys, you know, we say sweet things to Chi-Chi all day, but they were like wanting to see if they said mean things in a nice tone, if she would have the same response. And she did.
So they'd be like, Chi-Chi, you're the ugliest dog there is on earth. And Chi-Chi would like, we don't like you, Chi-Chi. And she's just smiling and wagging her tail. And it's like, she doesn't care at all what they're saying. And they're like, see, it's the tone, mom, it's the tone.
Well, then they'd say nice things in a mean tone. Oh, that's right. You're the best dog ever, and we love you so much. And she'd get scared. Oh, my goodness.
Yeah, tone made the difference, not the word. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
And so we, you know, as human beings, we need to pay attention to our tone because it matters. And I think sometimes we can find ourselves in what I like to refer to as a sandpaper season, where maybe our spouse didn't do a thing. But we are in a rough season where we already feel wounded, we feel raw. And so they could just say something that isn't even meant to be hurtful, but we take it that way because maybe the tone hit us right. How do we diffuse that?
Because I've had that experience where I'm just saying something almost like a journalist would say: you know, four people went off the road yesterday and struck a pole, and everyone survived, and everyone's good. Why would you say that to me like that? And I'm going, what did I just say?
So, how do we honor our spouse? to give us that feedback of how that comment may have wounded them. And then in the inside, our head talk is, what in the world is she talking about? All I did was state a fact. I didn't have a tone with it at all.
Where's the referee call in that? How do I back off of that and say, okay, obviously it didn't work for her. Right. What do I need to do to say it differently? What do you coach couples with in that regard?
I love that you said you got to get a hold of your own self-talk because I do think if we're just stewing all day and having assumptions like, well, she's just emotional and she just doesn't get me. And like, what's wrong with her? Like, if we're just stewing on that all day, when we have that next conversation with our spouse, we're going to come off really negatively too because we've assumed the worst of them. And so first of all, we've got to rein in those thoughts and assume the best and then ask questions. Ask questions if you don't know.
If you're like, really like, what's going on there? I would go up to your spouse and say, listen, I can tell that really struck a nerve in you. I want you to know I'm for you and not against you. What went on there? Like, what did I say or do?
Or maybe it wasn't even. me what's going on here you know in that regard that's a great point we make the assumption that you did it on purpose and i would say 95 of the time that's probably not accurate exactly both directions right we do assume that you did that you threw that dart at me and it hit its mark and you're going what dart what mark and you know there might be times where you are throwing a dig and you got to be careful with that obviously there's healthier ways to do that But again, that's how with that communication, we got to be mindful and make maybe make the assumption. And this is a good thing. I'm having a lot of ahas lately. And I've been married almost 40 years.
That's trouble. But just that idea of before I react emotionally like that, make the assumption that Gene didn't know what she was saying or vice versa. Exactly. But how do you train yourself to do that to say, okay, I'm not going to assume the worst first? In the love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13, when Apostle Paul gives us this great list of what love is, the very first adjective he uses is patient.
Love is patient. Love is patient. Love is kind. It goes on from there. And I think that's the part he put that first, the Bible lists it first, because that's the part we struggle with the most, is the patience of like really taking a breath and leaning in and staying curious.
You know, Ephesians 4:32 talks about be kind and compassionate to one another, and then it uses a word that I love, tender-hearted, forgiving one another. And I think that tenderness in marriage is. Is usually what we need to lean into when there's a pattern of offense: of like, how can I, in my tone, in my words, in my pursuit of my spouse, in my thoughtfulness, just be tender with them? You know, not rough with them, but just tender with them. And if we'll take that posture, it will change the way we talk.
And all of us, we know how to do this because you look at somebody that might be harsh with their spouse and they think, well, I'm just not a flowery person with my words. And then they'll get their dog and they'll be like, I love you so much. You're so precious, you know? And so they clearly know how to be tender, right? We all do.
But we just need to direct that where it matters the most and be tender and patient with their spouse. And I want to say this too: just practically, take at least five seconds, just count to five, take a deep breath before you say anything. And if at that five, at number five, if you're still just rearing to go, ready to say something mean, count to five again. And if you can't get yourself regulated, dismiss yourself and say, I love you. I'm going to go take a minute.
I'll be right back. I promise. I won't leave you hanging. I just need a minute. Because I think so many times we just don't advocate.
We don't take the time because we're just, you know, we let the emotions take over, but we need to take the time because our relationship is worth it. Let's move to prioritizing your marriage. This is one, especially for young couples, that can be difficult in the busy season. But you have this concept of concentrating on your marriage. Why do we say a marriage-centric Family is critical over a child-centric family.
How do we do that?
Well, the simplest reason why we do that is because that's the way God designed it. That is true. Look at scripture, you look at how he orchestrated the family from the very first couple on. That's his design. That the most important human relationship we have on earth, if we're married, is with our spouse.
Is God first, then our spouse, then our kids. And when we get that out of balance, when we put our kids first, it creates codependency, it creates a lot of difficult things. It's one of the reasons why the divorce rate is spiking among empty nesters. Right. And people are good at co-parenting and paying bills and running kids to practice and being focused on the kids.
And once the kids are out of the house, they look at each other and realize they're married to a stranger. And sadly, there's an epidemic of divorce among people who've been married 20, 30 plus years. And we're trying to just help people. We're not saying anything really new or novel in this. We're just trying to point people back to the timeless truth of God's design.
For putting marriage first. And when you give your kids the gift of seeing a healthy marriage. It is a gift to them because a lot of young people are scared to get married right now. They're cohabitating, they're dating around, they're scared of marriage. The reason why.
Is they grew up in a household where they never saw a good example of it. And if we can give our kids a good example, that's one of the greatest gifts we can give them as they go out on their own and start their own family. That's really good.
Now, how did Oreos teach this to your family? This is what I want to know. I mean, I love a good Oreos. Sweets find their way into all of our family stories. And we just have a lot of.
A lot of sweet tooth people in the house.
Okay. But there was an Oreo story. There is. Oh my gosh.
It grosses me out every time I tell it. But it's also kind of a funny story.
So I remember this is when we were in the thick of raising four boys. At the time, our youngest was probably, I don't know, one and a half, and our oldest was maybe 10. And there was this quiet in the house all of a sudden. And that rarely happened at that time. And we were enjoying it for a moment.
I think I was folding laundry. You were doing some other kind of chore. It was just a quiet moment. And I realized I don't know where Chatham is, our littlest one. And I'm like, oh my gosh, where's Chatham?
And Dave's like, I thought you knew where Chatham was. And all of a sudden, we look at the kitchen. And at the time, we had a great room, but our kitchen light was off, but there was one little light coming from the half-bath that was right off the kitchen. And I'm like, He was kind of in the midst of potty training, and I'm like, did he actually go to the potty? And so we go over to the bathroom.
And at first, I'm relieved. I'm like, oh my gosh, there's Chatham. We found him. He's safe and sound. But then I realized there's this dark.
ring around his mouth. And I'm like, what is that? That's weird. And then I look and see his soggy hand with a soggy Oreo, and he is smiling ear to ear, dipping an Oreo in the toilet and eating it and eating it. And he was so proud of himself.
Stay on the road. Don't veer off the road for the listeners.
Okay. Oh my gosh.
Wow. I know. And so we like. This is why we don't get invited to speak at parenting. I know.
I know. Lots of marriage stuff. But they hear these stories and they're like, we're good on the parenting though. We're good, David and Ashley. No, but we immediately swiped him up and cleaned him.
We're gagging. Everybody's gagging. But it was, we laugh about it now, but it was crazy. And help me with why that reinforces marriage. You know, Jim, I'm not sure.
I think, honestly, it's first of all, having a sense of humor, right? But also being a team. I think just being a team and handling things and, you know, just getting in there and tackling things together because parenting is hard. And what we talked about in the book with that story, too, is when you take your eyes off of something. That's important for too long.
It's going to veer someplace, it shouldn't. Exactly. And that happened with our kid, but we see that over and over happen with people's marriages where you put it on autopilot, you don't really take time to check in and say, Where are we? How are we? You're just assuming everything's fine because there's not this big crisis, there's not this big explosion, just like we did in that moment where things seemed fine because they were quiet, but quiet doesn't always mean healthy.
And you need to be proactive and lean in and say, How are we doing? Like, you know what? What can I do to be a better spouse to you? And are we prioritizing each other enough? Do we need to make sure we have that date night on the book consistently?
And just checking in, because left on autopilot, every marriage will crash eventually. No, that's good. I will never think of Oreos quite the same way. And even in that circumstance, I mean, there's an illustration there, I'm sure, of different parenting styles and how you handle these things. Because Dina and I would always approach some of the problems quite differently.
But you had the wisdom to go seek out help from somebody because of those differences. And I thought that was really an important part of what you shared because there's an accountability, there's a willingness to grow. Who did you seek out and what did you learn?
Well, I will just, I'm telling you, this is Dave. Dave had a lot of wisdom because we found ourselves just, you know, really getting along in most areas of marriage. But when it came to parenting, there was a growing resentment and a tension that we could feel. We weren't like fighting and calling names or anything like that, but just you could feel the tension. You could cut it with a knife.
And we just found that we just could not get on the same page with parenting. I was much more black and white, and Dave was just nicer. And I was like, between the two of us is like a balanced parent. We've got to figure this out. But Dave one day came to me and he said, Ashley, he's like, listen, we have, like, I know that we have all these areas of marriage where there's not tension.
And he said, but this tension, I just feel like it's getting, it's growing. And I feel that you resent me and I hate that. But he goes, but I feel like I don't even know what it is. And he's like, and, and, you know, in the conversations we've had, I can tell that you feel a bit like you don't know what it is either. You can't put your finger on it.
He goes, I have this idea. Let's pray about, you know, asking God to bring to mind a couple that we know that has a thriving family, not a perfect family because those don't exist. A family that we admire that's maybe a little bit like 10 years ahead of us, and let's have them over for dinner and talk to them and just learn from them. And I was like, Okay, I'll do it.
So, we prayed. We, I mean, God brought to mind the same couple, the same family. And then I started saying, Oh no, they're so busy. You know what? We shouldn't ask them.
Like, you know, this is probably not a good idea. And he looked at me and grabbed my hand and he said, Ashley, you can't say no for people. The worst that can happen is they can't do it. And we'll pray about it. And we'll think of another couple.
God will bring to mind another couple and we'll go from there, but we're not, we need to do this. And so we approached the couple at church, and they were more than willing. I mean, they were so honored that we would even ask. And they were like, We would love to teach you what we know.
So we had them over for pizza and spent like two or three hours just talking through all these issues we'd been facing with parenting. And they gave us new thoughts and new practical skills to consider and to use that we had never thought about nor would we have thought about without talking to them. And we went back to them over the years, but it was a real game changer for us. Yeah, just being willing to ask for help and seek help is sometimes one of the wisest things. You can do for any part of life, but certainly for marriage.
And in marriage, for whatever reason, we just clamp and we're like, No, I don't want people to know our business. I don't want that. And you can't think that way. You have to think there are people out there who've been where we are who have walked through this and can teach us what they know. And let's lean into that.
And I'm so thankful that we did. And that couple, you know, became great friends and great mentors. And it wasn't like formal. It wasn't, we were, we weren't meeting every week. It wasn't like that.
But they were there in our corner from then on. And that made a huge difference. Yeah. In that context, you do point out it's important to create a healthy family culture in this area of marriage. And it reinforces that.
But a place where children even feel like they can be heard. Speak to that idea. And maybe you have some traditions in your family that helped you build that culture, but speak to all of that. Yeah, I think. Leaning in with curiosity, the same you do with your spouse, instead of leaning with criticism.
I think, as parents, sometimes we think our go-to needs to be criticized. Like, that's wrong, I got to correct it. That's what parenting is. But really, we should come alongside as teachers, mentors, that's what parenting is as well, and say, Okay, tell me why you did that. And a lot of times, you'll hear them.
Answering their own question of why it was wrong that they did what they did. And you can just kind of help lovingly point it out. And if kids know that you're there with them and for them and you want them to win, then they're much more willing to share their struggles and their losses with you. Exactly. Because we put a high value on honesty in our family.
And from a very young age, we always told them, You're going to get in less trouble if you're honest first before us finding out than if we find out. Because there's going to be consequences regardless, but they're going to be less if you can just come forth and be honest. And I think when you put those kinds of things in place as a family, it breeds more honesty, right? And so over the years, as our kids, you know, got to be young adults, they still come to us. And sometimes, you know, when they're asking certain questions, my eyes, I have to watch like my face because I'm like, oh my gosh, where's this question coming from?
Dave will grab my hand and he's like, this is what we wanted. This is what we wanted. Wow, this has been a great start. These are great tips. And what a concept.
Do marriage better? Seven simple shifts for a deeper connection. And we've just scratched the Surface. We can never cover it adequately.
So you need to get a copy of the book. And you could do that just by giving us a call or connecting with us online. Do marriage better. If you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Whatever you can do, five, ten dollars is great.
We'll send you the book. We'll do ministry together and do more. And let me also reiterate something you said, John. We have a marriage assessment. It takes about 10 minutes to do.
You know, it'll show your strengths and then point out some areas you could probably improve in. That's coach talk, right? But it is, it's quite good. And I think we've had like 1.2, 1.3 million people do that survey.
So join that. It's free. You can get some guidance there and it might start making you more aware of some of these areas that maybe you're not an A student in. And that's a great thing. And then also, here's the thing about supporting the ministry.
Last year alone, 530,000 marriages were strengthened and helped through the efforts here at. Focus on the family by doing a broadcast like this one with the Willises. It's just a wonderful way to participate, and that's the benefit of getting the book through us and providing a donation so we can do this great work. People's lives are changed. And you can donate today and request your copy of the book, Do Marriage Better, and you'll find the link to that marriage assessment all in the show notes.
Or call 800, the letter A in the word family. 800-232-6459. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Live your truth.
A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us. And it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly.
I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocus with JimDaily.com. Yeah.
