Your marriage can be healed. A hope-restored marriage-intensive from focus on the family can transform you and your spouse's relationship in just a few days. We'll go to this thing, but this is it. If this doesn't work, we're done. What we have now, it's way more than we ever had before and that I ever even dreamed of in the marriage.
Discover more at hoperestored.com. That's hoperestored.com. He was sitting in front of the fireplace with a blanket, and it was just not, it didn't even look like Jason. And I. I kinda get a little teary eyed thinking of it because, um It was hard to see him like that.
And I can relate to so many other people out there that you're watching your loved one go through this. And sometimes I think it's almost harder for the person watching it from the outside because. It's not the person that you know. That's Tori Benham describing the power of anxiety and fear that we can experience or we can see in a loved one. Tori is here with her husband Jason.
They're back today. And I'm John Fuller. We're glad you've joined us. You know, John, anxiety grips, I think, just about everybody in some way. It may not be directly you, but a family member, extended family member.
It's just so prevalent in the culture today. And I love the definition that our guest gave it last time. It's that projection of disaster. It's not what you're really living in, but it's the thought process of if then. If I'm out there doing that, then something horrible might happen.
And that's what we talked about last time: getting a hold of and really capturing that spiritually so you can be in a healthier place. I think it's important that God told us through Jesus, fear not. I mean, there's a reason He said, fear not. This life has ample opportunity to be fearful, but for us as believers in Christ, we need to take that assurance that God is with us in every circumstance and certainly in those future circumstances that we can't even comprehend what they might be. And if you didn't hear last time, go to The website or get the smartphone app, and you can download and have access to everything.
But I would encourage you, I thought it was a great discussion. It was, and it was a combination of scripture and experience and insight. And all of that is captured in the book that Jason and Tori have written called Unshakable, a proven plan to crush anxiety, defeat overwhelm, and conquer the fears that freak you out. Get a copy of the book from us when you stop by our website, and that link is in the show notes. Jason and Tori, welcome back.
It's so good to talk with you guys. Yes, great to talk to you, brother. Enjoy it. Yeah, we're so glad to be here. I'm so glad you're here too, Tori, because you bring that women's perspective.
And I know a lot of the listeners and viewers appreciate that.
So it's not just three dudes talking here. And this is an interesting topic. It can be a heavy topic, and I appreciate the tenderness we've all had with it. But it is about how to unlock somebody from this bondage, really. And, you know, people feel guilty even hearing that.
That's not the intent of. that. It's how do we get you to a better place? That's the goal. I think deep down that's where you want to be.
And it feels impossible. And we're going to hopefully make the impossible possible. And you can get to that place. Jason, last time we talked, many stories you guys shared about how it felt. You kind of fell into this.
Anxiety moment about to give a speech, a talk. And you're the third person. I'm sitting here going, When is that going to happen to me? I'm hoping not, but you're the third person that has shared an experience like that. But also in the book, Unshakable, you shared an analogy.
It's like being in a car and all the things that are going on in a car illuminate that for us. Right.
Well, you know, looking at anxiety as projected powerlessness, you know, it's projecting fear into the future. You know, first, Tori and I are not PhD type people. We didn't come at this from a technical angle. I'm just a simple former jock who struggled with anxiety and figured out a way out of it because I dove so deep into it, read everything that you can read on anxiety. And I was thinking, you know, if my kid was struggling with anxiety, how would I describe it to him?
And I thought of this analogy of a car.
Now, just imagine a car, like a luxury vehicle, but the kind that actually has a driver, a chauffeur, and you're going to ride in the back, you know? Not a Tesla. Yeah, not that. But your body is the car. Your brain is you.
You're in the back seat, right? You're calling all the shots. Your nervous system is the driver.
Now, there's the parasympathetic, sympathetic. We don't have time to go into all of that stuff, but so long as everything is good, you know, your driver, your chauffeur, is pressing the gas when it needs to go, pressing the brakes when it needs to stop, and everything is totally fine. But then, all of a sudden, you pull up to a stop sign, and an intruder jumps in named anxiety and gets into the back seat and starts screaming in your ear: you know, hey, danger's ahead. We're being followed by a black car, they're coming to take you out. And what do you do?
You yell at the driver, Florent! Let's go, you know, push the gas, you know, and that's where all of a sudden now your nervous system takes over and your car.
Now, just imagine if that anxiety stayed there, kept yelling into your brain, because that's what anxiety does: it hijacks your brain. Then it distorts your emotions. And then it actually perverts pressure. But next thing you know, you've got your driver, your nervous system is flooring it. And that's, you know, your adrenaline and cortisol is jumping out there and doing all this stuff.
And your parasympathetic nervous system is not able to press the brakes and say, hey, slow down, rest, digest. And so all of that stuff happened.
Next thing you know, your body starts to break down. And I think the difficulty. Again, is for those that are in anxiety. You know, we're trying to provide you handles to understand what's going on because, again, you had to climb out of that. I did.
And thank God you did. And Tori, thank God you were there to give him hope. And we talked about that last time. But it feels hopeless. And I don't want to diminish that because I know people are watching and listening that are in that spot.
They're not out of it yet. They're maybe at the beginning where you were. And so this is really designed just to give you that hope that you need to see things differently. That's the start, correct? Yeah.
Your dad was in the book as well. You shared a story about him as a pastor, and he had a desire, a hope, a dream, but something happened to him when he was young that continued to that voice in his head that kept telling him something. What happened there?
Well, you know, it's interesting because you've got to get to the root of your anxiety.
So when you know what it is, which is projected powerlessness, and now all of a sudden you're experiencing some of those things. That are happening in your body and in your brain. You're starting to ruminate and all this stuff. You got to get to the root. We do have a little small acrostic that really helps S-T-O-P.
Like, how do I get to the root?
Well, think of stop, S-T-O-P. Let's start with S: sin, self-talk, stress. First, ask God, is there anything in my life that I have Let come into my life that shouldn't be there. And it might not be the case, but it's always a good place to start. Because here's the thing: Satan has hijacked conviction and calls it anxiety.
We have coached people who are struggling with guilt over sin, and they're like, Well, I'm struggling with anxiety. I'm like, Well, no, like you need to repent of some of you. Sin, self-talk, negative self-talk, and then stress. But then you've got the T, which is trauma. And that's trauma that could have happened to you emotionally, but it could have happened to you physically.
You've got the O, which is origin. Maybe you're somebody that runs like a sports car, or maybe you're somebody that runs like an RV, a recreational vehicle. Why are you looking at me when you say that? Yeah, well, you know. Or origin in terms of your family, the way nature nurture, the way that you were raised.
And then P would be products, the stuff that you're putting into your body, whether it's food, whether it's alcohol, whether it's caffeine, whether it's medicine, whatever it is. But when I get to the T and I think about trauma, My dad experienced this. When my dad was in junior high school, he had a teacher named Ma McKinna.
Now, my dad is 77 years old. He's spoken all over the world. He's a preacher, stood on stage and preached. And I remember one time asking him, Dad, why don't you have a book? He said, I'll never write a book.
And I'm like, Why? he said, Because of Ma McKenna. And I was like, wait, I don't under well, who is that? He's like, that was my seventh grade. English teacher.
And I wrote a paper once. And she She wrote so much red on there that it looked like she bled on it, and at the top, She actually demeaned me in something that she said, and then she spoke it to the class. She told the class about it. And he said, it was humiliating. And I vowed at that moment that I'd never write.
And he said, to this day, if I write a sermon or anything like that, he said, I'm self-correcting while I'm writing because I still hear Ma McKenna. And this is six decades later. Yeah. That was a traumatic event.
Now, Ma McKenna didn't mean that. But he went through something that was an emotional trauma. And going back to my story of when I almost thought I was gonna pass out on stage, that I realized when I went back and I used that acrostic, S-T-O-P. When I was 12 years old, I was in junior high school, and I had to go stand on stage in front of all these parents, and I had to model these uniforms that our junior high school was going to have parents buy. And I was one of the students that they said, Hey, wear these clothes.
You're going to stand on stage and model along with some other students. Do you know right before I walked on stage, my dad walked up to me and said, Hey, Jace, listen, here's the thing: when I was in the military, we used to have to stand in formation for a long time, and the guys who didn't bend their knees would pass out. He said, So just bend your knees a little bit when you're standing on stage. Catholic weddings.
So then I'm 12 years old. And what do you think that I was thinking at 12 years old when I was standing on stage? Don't pass out.
So I was sitting there bending my knees.
Now, fast forward to 47-year-old Jason, about to stand on stage in Vidalia, Georgia. And something in my subconscious A trauma that had happened. My dad didn't intend to traumatize me back then, but it was a traumatic event. And now, all of a sudden, anxiety pulls that traumatic event.
Now, here we are at 47. I was about to walk on stage, not as a 47-year-old confident Jason professional speaker, but as 12-year-old Jason, freaked out that I'm going to pass out because of something my dad told me back when I was 12. And I did not realize that. I didn't even think about that until I went through anxiety and was able to pull up.
Some of that root there. And that's why I say 2 Corinthians 12 is so powerful that God was saying, my strength is perfect in your weakness. I'm allowing you to be weak because I'm about to show you how I'm going to be strong, but you're going to have to get to some roots first. Yeah, and that can be scary. That can be a point of fear.
Jason, explain why you believe God uses fear as an invitation. I mean, fear can be confusing. Fear God. I mean, fear is in the Bible a lot. But we're trying to say sometimes God will use that to set an environment that draws you to him.
That's exactly right. You cannot be courageous if fear doesn't first present itself. Right? And so that's why I think in Psalm 23 it says, Yea, though I walk through the valley of the You guys know what comes next? Shadow of death.
It's not the valley of death because the reality is always not as bad as the possibility. It's the shadow of death. What's bigger, death or death's shadow? The shadow. You know, if I were to see a wolf, that would be pretty bad.
But if I were to shine a flashlight on it and see the wolf's shadow, that's monstrous. That's terrifying. The shadow is always worse. And you know, Tori has a story of where she had to face that fear and realized that that is an invitation. For you to stand strong and see what God can do when you operate out of faith and not fear.
Yeah, so I grew up in a really small town in Torrington, Connecticut. And everyone that I knew-my parents, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles, my best friends' parents, they all worked together. It was just like a very close-knit community, and that was just what I knew. And so when Jason and I first got married, Yeah. We started having kids right away.
That wasn't the plan, but I got pregnant five months after we got married, and that started, you know. Baby number one, two, three, and four, and it kept me busy. And so a few years in, Jason was traveling a lot and he had, you know, started several businesses. And, you know, and there was an angst in my heart. I was home all the time and I felt left out of Jason's life.
And I remember hearing John Gottman, he's a leading psychologist, he said that at the gridlock of every marital conflict are unrealized life dreams. And I remember thinking, That it really resonated with me because I had forgotten that I had had a life dream to work with Jason. Like, I thought my life was going to look like my parents' life and my grandparents' life, where they just did everything together. And now, here's Jason and all his businesses. He's got business partners, and I'm not the business partner.
And I remember just feeling that, like, that I longed for that, that I wanted that. That was a life dream of mine. And, um, Shortly into our marriage, Jason has his master's in marriage and family. And so that opened the door to where a lot of couples were coming to us and saying, Oh, Jason, you're a licensed marriage counselor. Can we get some marriage counseling?
Well, we're just a couple years in, and we're like, sure, but we have our own issues. And but what it did is it opened the door for us to do marriage ministry together. And slowly but surely, we began to do other things. We began to write a book on our marriage, and then we started getting asked to speak. And that's when anxiety entered the picture for me.
And I had always longed to do more with Jason, but I am not a public speaker. That is not something I ever wanted or asked for. And so when we got our first invitation to go and speak, I was like, oh no, I don't do that. That's, you know, I want to do stuff with Jason, but not that. But I did it and it was horrible.
Like, I was so anxious. I was so tied up inside. I hated every minute. The first time that we did it, I. Came down with the flu, like you know, like your body responds to that stress.
Yeah. But the Lord continued to kind of open up these invitations for us to come and to go and to speak together. And so, as time went on and the Lord opened more doors, um, I thought I was kind of breaking through it, I was getting some headway. And, and we were asked to speak at a marriage conference. And we showed up.
That marriage conference was the focus on the family marriage conference. That's right. Yeah, here in Colorado.
Okay, good. Yeah. And so we showed up to this event, and Dr. Gary Chapman was in the room. And we walked up to him, and Jason put his arm around him.
And he said, You know who this is? This is Dr. Gary Chapman. He's written, you know, the best-selling marriage book of all time. I think he's the most prolific Christian author ever.
Five love languages, etc. Oh my God. Yeah. He's a good friend. He's a legend.
And He looked at me and he said, Oh, he's so humble and so sweet. And he said, What are you guys speaking about tonight? And my heart just went to my feet because in that moment, I'm like, I felt like such an imposter. Like, who am I to speak in front of Gary? Dr.
Gary Chapman, what am I doing? And that's humble. Yeah, it was, I just felt like the weight of anxiety, projecting powerless. I can't do this. I'm not a speaker.
This is what Jason does. How did I get roped into this? And I excused myself and I went to the bathroom and I sat in the stall and I was just gripped by anxiety. Like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be here.
And I in it's in those moments of desperation. That the Lord always speaks to me. And I wish it wasn't so. I wish that I would be more intent to listen to him in less intense moments. But in those moments of desperation, I said, God, help me.
I can't do this. Like, I don't know what, how I got here, but here I am, and I need your help, Lord. And I just remember looking at the back of the stall, like, just thinking like God was there, like, He's going to say something, He's got to say something. You got to help me. And I just felt the presence of the Lord come over me.
And I felt like He said, You don't have to do this. I invited you to do this. And it was just this calm that came over me when he said, You don't have to do this. Like, there's no pressure here. This is, I just invited you to this.
And it was like this. Just a moment for me where I realized that, just like I had this longing in my heart to do stuff with Jason, right? I wanted to, I wanted to do more with him. And The Lord was giving this opportunity for us to do more. And the Lord was saying to me, I want to do stuff with you too.
Like, I am inviting you into a space with me, and I know you can do it. And I just invited you to come, but you don't have to do it. This is just an invitation. And everything shifted for me, and it wasn't. I have to do this.
I can't do this. It was. The Lord saying to me, Come, do you want to come? And it reminded me of Peter in the boat, right? When he wanted.
Mm-hmm. Jesus to step out. He's like, invite me to come, right? Like, call me out. And Jesus says, okay, I'll call you out.
And Jesus says, come on. And then he gets in the water and he's fine until he thinks about himself. It's not that he's not trusting Jesus. It's that he's trusting his own ability. And he's like, I don't walk on water.
And then he sinks. And I was doing the same thing. I'm like, I don't do this. This is not who I am. And I began to sink because I was focused on me.
I was focused on my limitations. And I wasn't focused on the one who was saying, come. Yeah, that is such a wrap of what we're talking about. I mean, that really, I hadn't thought about that scripture in that way. But yeah, that's all about anxiety.
And what am I doing? And I'm sinking. Yes, I'm sinking. The Lord reaches down and pulls Peter up out of the water. That's exactly right.
That's like everyday life for all of us in our own context, whatever that might be. Yeah. And you know what I found? In moments like what Tori was experiencing, there are three things that you need to do: you need to recognize, renounce, replace. You need to recognize where this thought is coming from.
You need to recognize what's happening in the moment, and it comes from Satan. You need to renounce the lie you're tempted to believe in that moment, and you need to replace it with truth. And you know what? You're going to have to repeat it, and you're going to have to repeat it, and you're going to have to repeat it, and that will help set you free.
So, I just want to come back there because, and slow down a minute to understand, recognize, renounce, and replace.
So, recognize what does that mean? Recognize what's going on in the moment of the anxiety, and that you have to recognize the source of it. And when I say the source, it all goes back to Satan. Satan is pulling the alarm on your fear. You are projecting powerlessness into the future, and you need to recognize it happening in the moment.
Okay, so that's like shining the light on your enemy. All right, now that you shine the light on the enemy, how do you defeat him?
Well, first, you have to renounce the lies he's tempting you to believe in that moment, the lie that you're unsafe. the lie that you need to control everything. The lie that it's all going to end in disaster. It's a lie. It's just a lie.
And then you need to replace it with truth. What does that look like? It looks like replacing worry with worship in that moment. You listen, anxiety focuses on how. Worship focuses on who?
Anxiety is going to focus on the problem. But worship focuses on the person.
So, in that moment when Tori was in that stall, God got her out of thinking about herself and got her thinking about him. That's why we say that fear is an invitation into something greater. But that recognized, renounce, replace formula is, we dive into that in our book, and the whole book is about that. And we dissect that to help people and give them practical handles on how to get out of anger. You know, and I think when you look at maturing in Christ, I feel we need to say this not to throw water on that, but.
The healthiest place you can get to is even if your circumstances are not dictating victory. That's right. That your trust in Christ is there. I think God smiles on that soul who can say, yeah, hey, you know, don't crucify me the same way as the Lord. Turn me upside down, which is what Peter said.
That's having a grasp of your circumstances and then controlling them actually, being victorious in that. And I don't mean that to be overly dramatic, but my goodness, talk about managing your fear and saying, hey, I know what's coming. I know death is going to come eventually for me, but I'm going to be. Submitted. concretely in Christ.
Because that's where everything comes from. That's where life comes from. That's so funny you say that because I literally thought that very thought in the middle of my anxiety. And I thought, well, what's the worst that could happen? And I thought, well, I could die.
And then my brain went into: well, what happens if I die? To be absent from the body is to be present, I would be with the Lord. And you know who I thought of? I thought of John the Baptist. And we think about John the Baptist lost his head in prison.
He literally had his head cut off. But I think about that. The few seconds just before his head was cut off, he's John the Baptist in a prison cell. A couple seconds later, he's John the Baptist giving God the Father a high five and hugging him up. And God's like, I got you here earlier than you thought, but isn't this great?
You know, it's like.
Okay.
So it is kind of like where you catastrophize it on purpose, go to the worst thing that can happen and be okay with that, and then let's start working backwards. But you know, even in that example, it's fascinating that John sitting in prison said, Go to Jesus and ask him, Are you the one? Yeah, because if you're the one, why am I in prison? Yeah, I mean, that was really the extraction of that. And am I missing it?
Did I not have it right? I mean, that was some of the self-doubt that he had. And then the word came back to him: No, you're in the right place and just trust the Lord. And it's so cool, the heroes of our faith we can identify with them. John the Baptist, you know, that he might have been a little offended, but just think about Jesus in the garden when he sweat drops of blood.
Go and look that up. That's an anxiety episode in that moment. And it shows you. That Jesus died with no sin.
So he didn't give in to anxiety. He didn't give in to that. But he was experiencing pressure to a point that. I think only one other account in human history is where they've separated, you know, these sweat drops of blood. Don't quote me on that.
But where Jesus actually faced down anxiety and made it through. Like he really did it. Our own Savior experienced some of those same feelings that we have, the gut-burning sensations and all that kind of stuff. But he made it through. And if he can make it through, we can make it through.
Yeah, and that is the whole point. You know, the last thought here is a child. There is something about a child that is so simple. You know, they trust they're going to have a meal, they trust they're going to put their head down and get a good night's sleep. And Jesus Himself said, You know, don't hinder children coming to me because the kingdom of God is like these children.
So I'm just sitting here thinking, Why you're yoked up with the Lord in this life to have that conversation with Him. That's what He's looking for. You know, just to look at Him and say, Lord, man, this is easy, or thank you for this. Why is this easier? And just let your heart hear from Him through the Holy Spirit, the Word of God.
And those are the promises that He gives you. Have that childlike heart to trust that He is there, to trust that He is. Do you know that's I love that you brought that up because when Tori and I did our interview with you guys on our book, Beauty and Battle, our marriage book, I had just gotten past this anxiety stuff and I hadn't written the anxiety book or anything. And you know, while I was doing makeup down with your makeup lady down there, I started to feel an episode coming on. And my knee started to shake.
This is right before I was coming on with you guys.
So, if you go back and watch that episode of Beauty and Battle, I was suffering some anxiety while I was talking with you guys. And my knee was shaking. But, you know, I held on to what God reminded me of when I was sitting in her chair. Hey. You get to do this.
You get to be on Focus on the Family. There's no organization that has helped the family more worldwide than Focus on the Family. And I should be thankful for that. And I was thanking the Lord. Halfway through our talk, I was great.
This is fantastic. We're thankful you said yes several times and to have both of you here, Tori. It's great to have you here. It's just been a delight to remind everybody of what it means to rest, to be at peace with the Lord. To take that yoke up with him and not try to carry this on our own.
If you're in that spot, Could you get a hold of us? We're here for that. Nothing's going to embarrass you. We've been at this 48, 49 years now, and we've heard a lot of input from listeners in the past. We've put that all in databases.
We have resources for just about every Situation you're going to face in your life, let us be there to minister to you. It's a privilege for us to do that and for the donors who support Focus to be able to make that happen. When I'm meeting with the donors, having a meal with somebody that has helped us, they are in. They're saying, This is what we want you to be doing. I love it.
My job is to run Focus effectively and efficiently so you can do ministry through it with your finances and your prayers. I'll make that commitment, and we just need you to step up and support us as well. If you can make a gift of any amount, we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being connected to the ministry and providing those counselors to do those calls and helping people get to a better place with Christ. Yeah, pray with us and for us, and we so appreciate that. And as you can donate generously today, and we'll send that book unshakable to you.
Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. And we've got details about connecting with our counselors, donating, and getting this book. And other resources to help, all on our website. And you'll find the links in the show notes. And let me encourage you to make a monthly commitment to Focus.
Gene and I support Focus that way. I know you and Dina do as well, John. Thank you, by the way. I believe in this ministry. But let me tell you why.
Here's the payback. Here's the report on the investor investment. We got a note from a gentleman named Andy, and he said, Even as a Christian, I struggled with resentment, insecurity, and shame. Those are all things that can lead to anxiety. The Lord uses Focus on the Families podcast as one of his tools to bring me out of those pits.
Thanks to you and all of your guests who have been willing to share their brokenness and point people like me back to Christ. Humility is a precious commodity. Keep shining it. And you guys have done a beautiful job of that. I mean, that's written right to you to be able to come on, talk about your lives, that brokenness, but where God healed.
And, you know, thank you for doing that on behalf of Andy. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us.
Well, once again, you can donate to help encourage and support more families when you click the links in the show notes. And coming up tomorrow, some practical advice for moms and dads about kids and sports. It really does start with us as parents just Taking a deep breath. It's just a game, a game that they can play and enjoy, and we can sit back as their parents and enjoy the stage of life and watch them play and not put so pressure on them to be what we hope they can be at 16 while they're six years old. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us.
And it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocus with JimDaily.com. Yeah.
