God is at work and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs. Truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope.
Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. This is John Fuller, and on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we're addressing an evil that destroys far too many marriages and families. This is a sensitive and serious topic, and it's not appropriate for younger children.
Someone told me if I loved my husband enough, he would stop using porn. When I confronted him, he said he was done. And we tried to get help again and again and again. I was devastated when I discovered that my daughter was addicted to illicit websites. He chose porn over me.
He will always choose porn over me. John, those comments represent the heartbreak we hear from so many couples today here at Focus on the Family. We receive about 2,000 responses a day from people. It's of all different types and nature, but certainly this topic of pornography is one of the leaders. Pornography is an unwelcome guest to any marriage because it will destroy that marriage.
It all has complicating aspects to it. It destroys intimacy. It widens secrecy. It makes you not trust one another. And that is horrific in a marriage.
Porn's a poison that destroys anyone who uses it. We need to think about that. The data is astonishing to me, and that's why we're covering it, John. When you look at the number of both men and women who are using porn today, it is catastrophic. And here at Focus on the Family, we want you to have the best marriage you could possibly have.
And if you're in that camp where you're using pornography, that is not healthy for your marriage. Yeah, and we're here to help, give us a call, talk it through, bring light to that dark part of your life, your soul. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family, 800-232-6459. Or click the link in the show notes for help. And of course, as I said, you know, pornography is gender neutral, but far more men use pornography than women.
On day two, we're going to talk about the use by women, but don't feel like we're excluding women from that discussion. But most of the conversation will be geared toward the wives whose husbands are using pornography. And we have a great guest who is going to be with us to talk about this issue. Her name is Rosie McKinney. She's written a wonderful book, Fight for Love.
And her own experience is going to explain the path forward for couples who are caught in this travesty. Rosie, welcome to Focus on the Family. Thank you for having me, sir. It's a great honor to be here.
Well, let's start with a question we received from a woman, a listener to Focus on the Family, and then I want you to respond to this. She said, My husband cannot go one day without looking at pornography. I told him it's an addiction and he needs help. He refuses to get any help because he is ashamed. I don't want it in my marriage or our family.
We have teenagers and I'm afraid they'll find it and think it's all right. This could be the end of our marriage if we can't find a solution. Do you have any suggestions?
Now, this came to us. Of course, we responded, but how would you respond to that? I think first of all I would validate that wife's instincts and tell her that She is listening very well to what the Holy Spirit is telling her. In that this is a problem. If he can't go a day without looking at this, this is, as she rightly said, this is an addiction.
And she recognises that. She's wanted him to get help, it sounds like, but he's refusing to get help. And she's worried that her marriage may end as a result of this, like it's going to get progressively worse. And she's probably right.
However, I do have great hope for her because um for her to get to the point where she's actually reaching out to you guys, I would suspect That she's been in pain for a very long time and she's felt isolated and ashamed and hopeless and helpless, and she's probably tried. Many, many things. who fight for this marriage already. I would from all the wives I've worked with and the wives in my community, I would say that she's probably tried the things she's heard, like just be more sexual with him, just be more graceful with him, be more forgiving, create a loving environment so he doesn't need to he doesn't feel like he has to do this. She's probably tried that again and again, going against her own intuition against her own feelings.
Um And uh but what I would say to her is, you haven't done the one thing that actually works. Because the problem, as far as I see it, is that she needs her husband to get into recovery. But she doesn't know how to do that because he won't reach out for help. Right. And this is.
And what I'm going to say now is So simple. And it makes so much sense, but yet, for some reason, we're not quite getting there yet, and that is. What is the reason that most married men get into recovery? You know, do they suddenly feel convicted one day?
Some, maybe, a small Minority, but what actually gets guys into that therapist's office is their wife forcing the issue. Not accommodating, but forcing it. But forcing, and there is something tremendously painful about a wife being brought to a place of desperation and pain where she has to force this issue. And so my whole heart, my whole passion is to tell women that they don't have to wait. You do not have to wait till your marriage is on the verge of a divorce, till you're on the verge of a nervous breakdown.
You can actually take proactive Action. Right now, if you know or suspect that pornography is an issue in your marriage, there are things you can do now. Two. Help. Bring him to repentance.
It isn't you that's going to bring him to repentance, it's following. God is by being obedient to God. And that's where I get tremendously excited because He's already provided the answer for us. In the scripture, We just have to Look at what it says. Right.
And in that respect, I mean, that's part of your story. We're going to unfold that today and tomorrow. I want to talk at that higher kind of elevation. Give us the statistical information. I mean, what does it look like in culture with the church and outside the church?
Okay, well, we're very fortunate in that Josh McDowell did a massive study quite recently where he spent like $300,000 to get the data that we so desperately need. And he found out that of guys who, evangelical guys who regularly attend church, 79% are regularly using pornography. I mean, that seems unbelievable. It is shocking.
Now, that's everybody. That's married and single. That's married and single. Break it down a little bit.
So, of married guys, it's 55%. That's over half of marriages are struggling with this. And these are people who are going to church regularly, not just the general constituency. What does that number look like for the general population? It is, it's not that dissimilar.
It might be a little bit higher, but it's not that different.
So, 78% of men in general and in the church, and then about 55% of married men use it and define regularly. At least once a month. At least once a month. And this is actually going to a website or something. It's not just seeing a movie that's a little risque or catches you off guard.
Deliberately seeking out alluring material for the purposes of arousal. By deliberately doing that. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And it's such a hard subject, such a difficult subject. And one of the things that people will begin to justify is, is it that bad? It's just a little assistance.
It helps me. It entices a little arousal in our marriage, and it's healthy. I mean, you can hear the explanation there, and you've heard that from people. Speak to the wider damage that we open the broadcast with, you know, the impact to a marriage because of pornography. There are so many studies now.
We're talking hundreds of studies that prove. The pornography damages relationship. It's like I use the analogy. Do you do you know the story of the Snow Queen? No.
Okay, it's a fairy tale by Hans Christian Andersen. And basically there's an evil troll who creates a mirror. And the mirror shatters and it goes throughout the world and it gets into people's eyes. And when they look through this, Mirror that's now lodged in their eye. They only see the bad and ugly in people.
And this is what pornography does. It puts this pornographic lens so you are no longer able to see your spouse in the way that you once did, in the way that God intended you to. You will be more dissatisfied with their appearance, with their sexual performance, and also just general decision making. It is this pornographic lens. And that's what we women need to hear.
We need to have it validated because we know it. We know something's changed. We know they're not there. We feel it on a gut level. And it doesn't matter what we try.
It doesn't make any difference.
Well, n this term that is used that many people, I don't believe, understand when we talk about objectifying women. That's what you're describing, that they became they become less than your partner, less than your wife, less than and you you begin to see them in only in ways that they can satisfy you. Exactly. Because we know that what you watch affects how you think about things. We have, what, a billion dollar marketing industry.
We know that it affects It's the same with pornography, and you're not watching two consensual adults having. Sex, you are watching something that is highly violent, misogynistic, degrading, humiliating. That's what pornography is. And for those of us who grew up before the Internet and haven't been exposed to it, it comes as a big shock. They're watching what?
And I'm not going to go into graphic detail what is sort of very, very common And ubiquitous in most of the pornography videos, but it's highly shocking and highly. Dehumanizing. And that is what you are being. Exposed to, and your brain is being conditioned to be aroused by what you're watching. And that's what I wanted to ask you: is the brain science.
That was the next question I had for you. In Fight for Love, your wonderful, tough book. You describe that brain science-related pornography. Explain how. Porn can essentially hijack the pleasure center of your brain.
Yeah, this is fascinating. And when I discovered this, it was like so many light bulbs went on in my head and helped me. see my husband as not that my adversary anymore, but an ally who needed help. He really needed help. Once I understood what was happening in his brain or what had happened in his brain, I I I had compassion that I didn't have before.
It doesn't excuse what he did. But It it helps.
So basically the reward center of your brain gets hijacked.
So, the reward center is basically a biological way of maintaining our survival.
So, whenever we do an activity that furthers our survival, like eating or having sex, then our brain produces chemicals that reward us, happy chemicals, okay? Which is very good. It says that was an advantageous behavior, let's repeat that. Unfortunately, with pornography, it can be hijacked. We can be hijacked by artificial stimulus.
that actually is a it's called a supernormal stimulus. Which means that we can be conditioned to actually prefer these false images. And the thing that's different between A normal intimate sexual relation, you know, encounter with your spouse and pornography, is that in this one. when you're when you have sex with your spouse, there's an off switch. You know, just like when you have too much food, there's an off switch.
It means you can get out of the bedroom, you know, out of the dining room, and get back on with your life. With pornography, there is no off-switch.
So that's the addictive factor. There is no off-switch.
So you can literally binge for days because all you need, the only thing you need to do to keep this dopamine surging is to click on something novel, something new, something more stimulating, maybe more shocking. You need to up the ante and you can get another hit. And this is how. People get so addicted because your brain Um when we do Repeated activity, we create neural pathways. Yeah.
And that helps us do things quicker, like learning to drive, playing the piano.
So, what's happening in your brain when you're watching pornography is that you are creating these neural pathways connecting pleasure and the activity of pornography. And there's a there's a little protein called Delta Phosby. Which is really useful and it helps us learn how to do things. But extra amounts are produced when we use pornography.
So instead of there just being a normal neural pathway, it becomes like a highway. Like this delta for speed, the amount that are being produced, and there's an extra amount when you're a teenager. becomes like an asphalt paver.
so that nothing else compares. The high that you get from pornography, nothing else really counts. And this is why you see people who are addicted, you know, they're hobby, you know, just not interested in their hobbies anymore. Fulfillment at work no longer does it. You're dissatisfied with your spouse.
Hanging out with your kids just irritates you. Everything in life becomes lackluster because. Nothing else can compare. Right. In fact, you relate in the book that people addicted to pornography are similar to head trauma patients.
Describe that analogy, because that's fascinating.
Well, this is interesting in the fact that there's a condition called hypofrontality that you get in two ways. You get it from heavy porn use or a head-on collision. And this basically impacts the functionality of your prefrontal cortex, which is your decision making. Part of your brain. It helps you weigh consequences and make good decisions.
Okay, it also shrinks your grey matter, literally, shrinks your grey matter.
So, you know, wives often say to me, He knows I hate this. You know, how can he keep doing this? It's damaging our relationship. It's breaking my heart. It's ripping the family apart.
Why can't he stop? And the point is, his brain has been hijacked in so many ways. Like he's no longer able to feel happy, he needs his drug, his drug is no longer effective, and he's got this condition where his brain is no longer connecting very well in the decision-making part, and he's not able to reach out because he can't override the cravings. And the cravings are coming because the brain has now been sensitized to all these pornographic cues out there that go, oh, pornographic cue, oh, that's highly pleasurable. Oh, I need to do that.
Decision-making part of my brain is no longer functioning. It is literally a spiral. And I say all this not to terrify women and make them feel hopeless, but to make them understand. That waiting for your guy to reach out for help is probably not a good strategy. Right.
And that's my whole point.
However, There are two people in the marriage. when two become one.
Okay? You are the functioning part of the brain now.
Okay, what is affecting him is affecting you. It's not just his problem, it's your problem. And you can effect change. You can be the catalyst. You can draw a firm line in the sand and reach down and grab him out of the swamp because he can't do it.
Rosie, let's get into your story because I think it'll be very instructive for the listeners, the viewers. You and Mark met. Describe that, and then what took place rather quickly, even on your honeymoon, that gave you concern?
So I when I met Mark, Um I had already Prior to becoming a Christian, prior to meeting Mark, I had already been in a long-term relationship with an unrepentant porn addict.
So I'd already done this journey. and I knew that nothing I did was going to work.
So I had that experience.
So I met Mark, lovely Mark. And he confesses that this has been a problem in the past. And in my naivety, I'm like He's confessed. He said he's worked on this in the past, he doesn't want this. I've got one of the good guys, you know, this is not going to be an issue.
You know, we're going to get married. and everything is going to be fine. and then from the honeymoon onwards it's very clear. that this is not going to be okay. And something rose up in me and went, no, I'm not doing this again.
I know. That there is nothing I can do that is going. to make this better. He needs help. He needs help.
And so I said to him, I love you and I love us too much, but you need help. Because you can have pornography or you can have me, but you cannot have both. And the only reason I was able to do that, not because I had great self-esteem or that I knew what I was talking about, I didn't know any of the brain chemistry and that that was the right thing to do. It was only because I'd had the prior experience. Yeah, and then in your situation, Mark responded well.
He wanted to get help, I believe. Yeah. So that was a good response. Not everybody will get that response.
So again, speak to your experience of how favorably Mark responded. And then maybe contrast that with other women that you've counseled where their husbands have said, hey, it's not my problem, it's your problem. I mean, something. Oh, totally. And even though he responded well.
He wasn't happy about it and he was still in crazy addict brain. and it was really hard. It's really, really, really hard to stand firm. Yeah. And that is why You need to be educated, you need support, you need people around you to validate the trauma that you're going through and have been through.
Um in order for you to stand firm. I mean, that is the whole biblical thing, isn't it? Just stand, stand. Yeah, Rosie, I'm thinking of that first, you know, I'm sure that wife has that inclination, that fifth. Sixth sense that something's not right, or it's blatantly obvious, like in your case, you knew it because you had experienced that before.
Many women, I would think, then begin to go over their options in their own mind, in their own heart. Is this marriage worth it? You know, has he violated the marriage vow? I mean, those are valid questions. People may have different Theological understandings of what they're able to do, but speak to that immediate response.
And what you went through personally as part of your restorative approach. Part of the problem of being the spouse. Or the partner of someone who is addicted to pornography is that you are second-guessing yourself all the time. Because you hear it in the world: pornography is healthy for relationships, it's beneficial, it's empowering and liberating for women. And then you maybe go to the church and they say, Well, you can help him with his temptations if you make yourself more sexually available.
um even though your heart's going, Oh, it doesn't feel right. I don't want to do that. I certainly don't want to do the things that he wants me to do. Or Actually, he's been neglecting me for months. That can't be the issue.
You're so. Confused. and you look at your options.
So is one option It's like, well, I'm going to compete with the pornography. I am going to be, I'm going to fulfill all his sexual fantasies. I'm going to be available. Or you might go, okay, I'm going to be totally graceful about this whole thing. And I understand that, you know, this is a ubiquitous temptation and that everybody does it.
And I'm going to be, I'm just going to, you know, forgive him and I'm going to dig into that. And I'm going to just rely on my faith. And this is hard, and that suffering is part of being a Christian, and that I've just got to put up with it. Almost like accepting it all. Yeah.
But that's not the healthy way to go. No.
Or the other way is. I just need to get over myself. I need to get over myself, and then I'll be able to feel close to him. But here's the thing: you're never going to be okay with pornography. A because it's demonic, and B because the Holy Spirit is never going to let you be okay with that being brought into your relationship.
The idea is not to just accommodate it, it's to get it out of your marriage.
Well, and I would think you're y the third option is to not Excuse the porn user, your husband, in the way that we're describing it today. And again, next time we'll talk about women who are using porn as well.
So don't write us, it's only one-sided. We get it. But in that context, I want you to drill into that in these last moments that we have. You know, again, don't be overwhelmed by the justification of its use. Stand firm in what you feel the Lord saying to your heart.
Exactly. But that takes a lot of strength. It takes a tremendous amount of strength. And you did it.
So, what were those things that you did right here at the end that really got well? I didn't do it. I didn't do it perfectly. I would advocate that women take a firm stance of zero tolerance through education and support. You know, join a group.
Okay, so we talked about husbands who won't get into recovery. That's okay. The answer is not to stay in a horribly deteriorating relationship, one that's going to stay stagnant and intimately void. or leave, there is option C. If you won't get help, you get help.
Your betrayal trauma is real. You get help, you get strengthened, you learn how to set boundaries. And let me just End with this. You're not fighting for the marriage that you had minus the pornography. You're fighting for something new, something.
Beyond your greatest expectations, because pornography is not the problem. Pornography is the solution to an intimacy disorder.
So that's what you're fighting for. You're not fighting to just get rid of this pornography. You're fighting for this new level of vulnerability, honesty, authenticity that you've never had before. And that's exciting. That is really exciting.
So. Rose, I want to make sure right at the end we're giving that hope, which you talked about from the moment you walked in the door here at Focus on the Family, is that I want to be about hope. And you and Mark, just so we. are clear for the listeners and the viewers. You are married and having a good journey now.
And that's really important to remember. And one of the things that I've seen with our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives and other things is if you can get through this as a couple, the level of intimacy that you share is really unique. It's special because there's nowhere to hide. The stuff is out on the table, and you know me as fully as I can be known, my warts and everything. And I'm sure that's the experience you and Mark have had now.
And it's in some ways very freeing. It is the worst, best gift I never thought I wanted. The worst best gift I like. If that makes sense. Yeah.
It's not just you don't have to take my word for it.
Okay, we now have a community. of many, many other women who have fought for their marriages, fought really hard. And those whose marriages didn't survive, because I want to put this out there, that that sometimes guys do remain unrepentant, but those women have fought for their families and they fought for their mental health and they fought for their futures. And they now wake up in the morning With hope. and they wake up able to smile and laugh again.
Because if you're in a relationship With a porn addict, you're not doing a lot of laughing and smiling and you feel horribly alone. And I want to tell you, you're not alone. There's a whole army of women out there who want to give back and want to love on you. And you can do this. A porn free marriage is possible and it's better because both of you are now naked and unashamed.
Both of you. Yeah, that's wonderfully said, Rosie. And what a tremendous kickoff to the discussion. We'll come back next time and continue because there's so much more we need to cover. And I certainly recommend you get a copy of Fight for Love when you send a gift of any amount to the ministry.
We'll say thank you by sending you a copy of this great book. It's a wonderful resource to help you deal with this difficult but important issue in your own marriage or maybe in a friend's marriage. Yeah, and another resource we'd recommend is our Hope Restored Marriage Intensives. It's an opportunity to get away and really concentrate on the marriage relationship and work through your issues. God does so much in this vital ministry to transform hearts, and we'd be happy to tell you more about Hope Restored.
So contact us today to get info about Hope Restored and then make a generous donation and we'll also tell you more about Rosie's book. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. 800-232-6459, or you can donate and get resources at our website. The links are in the show notes. And thank you for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation with Rosie McKinney and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Yeah. God is at work, and He's calling His people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Coulson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth.
Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit TruthRising.com today. That's TruthRising.com. Yeah.
