Because at the end of my life, and I want, I want to, my hope is that Aaron will be able to say, you know what, Greg made a difference in my life. Like being married to Greg made a difference. In a good way.
And vice versa. That's my goal is to know that I made a difference in your life and improved your life. Well that's part of a panel discussion that we introduced last time on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller and we got lots of good marriage advice and encouragement from our guests, Jean Daly and her husband Jim of course, along with Greg and Naren Smalley. John it was, I thought, a great conversation last time exploring themes like navigating our differences as couples, the value of mentoring, and why it's important to have a long view of marriage.
It kind of slows the burn of anger or disagreement down quite a bit. Jean and I had so much fun trading stories and insights with Greg and Aaron. The Smalley's head up our marriage team here at Focus and I really appreciate the wisdom they have for husbands and wives. If you missed the conversation last time, get an audio copy from us or watch the entire episode on YouTube. Or better yet, get the Focus on the Family app for your smartphone so you can access amazing content whenever you want.
Mm-hmm, yeah. And the source material for this conversation came from a book that, Jim, you've written called the Healthy Marriage Devotional, 365 Daily Inspirations to Bring You Closer Together. You can learn more about that book and all the resources we have to help strengthen your marriage in the show notes. And now the continuation of that roundtable conversation between Jim and Jean Daly and Greg and Aaron Smalley on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. All right let's explore some of the things that married couples can do to improve their relationship. That's the whole idea here, right?
One is certainly do a devotion together and we've got that great resource for everybody. But you've written a book, Greg, about tools. Now what's so funny, I resonate with this because I am not mechanically inclined. Yesterday we talked about me rescuing the ring that Jim lost, taking the toilet apart. I never found the ring. I had to put it all back together. Impressive.
I think it didn't leak but I'm not sure. So I'm cruising through one of those big box stores and they got a sale for a massive toolbox and it's like love at first sight. You've got to have it.
I'm looking at it going, that just is so beautiful. Every guy needs a good toolbox. So I bought it, you know, it was on sale.
It was a good deal and it stands like eight feet tall. You can barely get to the top drawer and I filled it with ratchets and everything I need, you know, socket sets galore. Metric, standard, you got it. Hammers. I'm not sure that I've ever used one over the last 15 years.
But you have them. My sons have used it. But you did this whole concept about the toolbox and what our wives need, the tools that we need to use for our wives. It's not the socket set. So what are the tools that our wives need us to use and how are we as clumsy with those tools as I was with real tools. So my son in law calls me last night and so they're looking to buy a home. It's their first purchase and so he he calls and goes, hey do you have a toolbox? I was like, yeah. He goes, because we're gonna need help. And he goes, do you know how to use those tools?
I went, no I don't. I'm like, why you know this? Why are you even asking me? He's like, all right, would you be willing at least if I tell you how to use it to help us when we move in. But what a humbling moment. Your son in law telling you how to use tools. Because the only, like you, the tools that I have is because my dad passed away and I inherited all his wonderful tools that he knew how to use. He never taught me. That's the reason it's your dad's fault. That's a father wound right there.
This is exactly his fault. I think there's some incredible tools as a guy that we need to know and learn how to use for our wives. My, probably my favorite is what I'd call the safety tool. Because more than anything in our marriage, so of 33 years, what I've learned is that if Erin's really gonna let me see who she really is, if she's gonna open up and reveal all of who she is. So her, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, the hurts, the wounds, all that stuff. She will only do that if she feels safe with me.
Like people won't open and really reveal who they are if they don't feel safe. And I never had that vision of what does that really mean? In other words, safety being that Erin, I accept all of who you are.
When we get married, we use, right, a lot of couples use those traditional vows that talks about to have and to hold. In the word to have, it's such a cool meaning. It says that in this moment I accept all of who you are. All of it. The good, the fun stuff, but the hard stuff.
The growth areas in your life. Like I want that all. And I think when we're creating safety, that's what we're saying.
Is that Erin, I accept all of who you are. And that relaxes her. It's like Ruth and Boaz from the Old Testament. If you reread that story, what's so cool is that Boaz, everything he did in their love story was to create safety. It was helping her to feel safe. Like this was a foreigner who came into his country and she was trying to pick up grain and wheat and he's seen her do this and he's telling his guys, you know, you do not mess with her. You leave her alone. As a matter of fact, I want you to leave behind some good stuff.
Just not the stuff that no one wants. And every time that he enacted with her was all to make her feel safe. And that launched their love story. She fell in love with that man because of the safety that he created.
And so that's a powerful tool. And so ask each other when we figure out how to be safe. So we can ask each other. I can ask Erin, hey what is it when I do it helps you to feel safe? Maybe I should ask you right now. What do I do that helps you to feel safe? You know it's interesting. It's something we talked about yesterday on the program when you listen to me.
When you just sit with me and care about my emotion. I feel so safe because you're with me. I'm not alone in it. And it's just it's so that's one tool. You know another one is the the the tool of knowledge. I love in 1st Peter 3.7 it says to treat your wife in an understanding way.
That word understanding, another definition there is knowledgeable. So treat your wife in a knowledgeable way. In other words, get to know her. She's always changing. There's always something to know about Erin. I think the worst attitude in a marriage we can have is that that oh I know you.
33 years of marriage. Like I know you. I know everything there is to know about you. But that's that's such a lie because she is always changing. And so that that tool of being willing to to keep asking her questions and being curious. Yeah like we we here at Focus we created this huge like hundreds and hundreds of questions that couples can ask each other.
All in that spirit of being curious to increase our knowledge. And so that that tool of just learning about my wife is such an important part of our marriage. And Erin there's one important bit of advice for wives that can rub us the wrong way. We're told to affirm our husbands but you know that is not easy when they're not affirming us. Hey, hey, hey, you're asking that question with such energy.
She's gonna say it's not easy when he never does anything worth affirming. I love the empathy that you're expressing. Well so why is it important for women to take the initiative in this area? And you're right that so often as wives as women we're going well wait what about us? We're supposed to do this for them to affirm them to to encourage them. And the bottom line is we have such great influence.
And so if we want that in return we can absolutely offer that and model the behavior that we want. But for a man there it's interesting because so often I assumed that Greg was getting affirmed here at Focus at work. Like you know that Jim you would compliment his vest and say gosh I really love your vest.
Versus Jean walked in today and I said oh my word I love that color on you that's awesome. And men just don't tend to do that. As women we do that. And the research shows that a man that is affirmed by his wife once a day just one time per day actually has deeper satisfaction in the marriage. And when I read that research I was like I have time to do that one time a day. If that's gonna encourage him to enjoy our marriage more I can do that.
You might be able to get two in there. Maybe but that means we have to be watching for what is it that we love about them. What do we see in them?
What can we call out in them? And again as we do that you're influencing. That is the greatest influence we can hold on to. Modeling the behavior we want to see. And I know like Jim I don't know if this is true for you but for me I want to feel successful. I want my person.
I want Erin to notice these things that I do and to feel successful. And that's why I mean just like last weekend she's been bugging me to clean out. We have a basement. There's a bedroom.
It's been one of those you know catch-alls. So it just has all this stuff. I can do that for you. There is a toilet in there that probably needs to be undone. I'll just throw everything away. Just flush it all. So she's been on to me to hey please just clean it out. You do that really well.
Which I think she makes up just to get me to do it. I finally did it. And I gotta tell you it looked really good. And so the first thing when I finished I marched right upstairs. Erin you've got to come look at this. Drag her down. Look.
And just present this whole thing that I did. And I'm sitting there going I am a grown man. Why is it that I have to go and fetch my wife my person to let her inspect and to see and to notice what it is that I did. That's not a problem. Right but I think it's that longing. But it's just but I've noticed that. That's why when she affirms me.
Oh my goodness. But often what I hear from couples when I'm working with them. The wife will say why is it why does he make such a big deal about the things he does. I mean I'm doing all kinds of stuff. But I think there's something exactly what you're saying recognizing what's he really wanting. So if he's announcing look at what I did what's really the desire under the waterline. And like you're saying I want to be successful. I want to be seen for who I am and what I do. Affirmation.
Affirm and then give me a treat. And we do that with the garage. I'll clean up the garage.
It looks good. It's been awhile since I've done that. I take everything out. I spend eight hours. Oh yeah.
Yes. And then I go get Jean. I said you just got to. Or she just comes out and goes wow this is incredible. Then like three four months later. It's a different call. It's like hey Jean can you come out to the garage with me for a minute?
What happened? It's my catch-all. There is something powerful. As much as we talked about here's the the toolbox for the guy. That that's a huge one for husbands is to get that affirmation. You know Aaron you mentioned something I want to just come back to because it was really quick but it's so powerful. You know and you didn't say it quite like this but it was what's happening for me.
I don't it wasn't exactly how you said it. But that's so much of marriage and so much of the conflict. You know our mutual good friend Gary Thomas. You know I was coming to the conclusion very similar to what he wrote about and then I interviewed him and he articulated it so well.
He just does it. But this idea you think of marriage and you're thinking back to what we said yesterday. You know you think you're very similar and then you realize you're probably opposites because that's what attracts us. It's the beauty of marriage. And that's fine you know an introvert with an extrovert that's what attracts you. That opposite of what you are. And you get married and then you just end up grinding over those things that are the differences.
And you know Gary said it this way and I totally agree. You know in the end the institution of marriage is to make you more like Christ. Okay what? That's where every Christian should lean in.
What do you mean? To become more selfless like him. This is God's character developing us to be more like him.
And wow that did change my perspective. I try to remember that. That idea that I need to lay my life down.
I need to be selfless and these things. It's kind of what you were saying Greg about knowing your wife completely. Knowing her as well as you can. It's very similar because when you do you know those things that hurt her. You know those things that trouble her. That bother her. The problem is that we just have such a propensity to push those buttons.
And I don't even understand why. Yeah well a lot of times it's accidental. Yeah let's say it's a lot of accidental button pushing. Well that may be true for you.
I'm not so sure for me. Some of that just feels like it's a standing on the rail like we talked last time about your laundry thing. You want to drop the laundry three floors.
Yeah just to make a little point. Just get it close and then you ended up hitting her. That's a metaphor for what I'm talking about. It's like verbally we're dropping that bag of laundry all day.
And it's back to that James 4-1. It's when we don't understand what's below the waterline. What is really driving the behavior in that moment? Am I willing to step back?
Take a moment to go okay what is going on for me? Why am I so upset that Erin you know made her one last little comment like we talked about? Like why? Well I mean now looking back you know all these years later it just it's simply you know I was a middle child and nothing was ever fair. And so the fact that she set a set of boundary and then violated it just wasn't fair.
It was unjust right? Right. And she needed to know that wasn't right.
Jane's a middle child too. She's right with you. And there might be different ways to let me know that.
There were many but I think your point is that we react in these knee-jerk ways without taking a moment to go okay I'm feeling stirred up. What's that about? Okay think of the stupidity of this. I mean really I'm saying this boldly. I'm saying it to myself. You just called me stupid. No think of the stupidity of this.
You know I'm going to say something that lights your fuse. Why? I mean really why?
What benefit is that to you? The person saying it. And I do it like every day I say something and lights Jean up and I'm like okay that was stupid why did I say that? Sometimes it's your style.
I mean my backup style is verbal attack. So I've got to control that. I just can't let it go. Yeah well in those moments we're triggered. Our hearts closed. We're heading into fight-or-flight. We're not thinking clearly. And we just say things do things in a reaction mode.
So it's not well thought through. So that's why it's so important like Greg you were saying to step back and go under the waterline. What is going on for me that I want to say this cruel thing to the person that means the most to me in this world. And when we do that we can get our heart back open. We can de-escalate and then we can come back and have a different conversation.
Well here's the ridiculous part. So just the other night. So we were doing something it was late and no one had eaten. So you were exhausted. So you went into the bedroom and I thought I'm gonna cook us dinner.
And so like Jean we talked about yesterday. You know I like to follow the recipes. So I was trying to organize and get everything ready. So I had all this chicken ready to go and rice and I went in to ask Erin hey would you like some broccoli with the meal I'm about to cook.
And so she goes no that sounds terrible. And I so reacted to her. I was shocked he was cooking dinner. I was like what you're cooking dinner?
I would come help but I didn't know you were cooking dinner. So whatever she said and she there was no malice there was no ill intense. Nothing that Erin was trying to do but I just I I kind of yelled out fine and then shut the door to the bedroom and just went and sulked in the kitchen. And so a lot of the times we do these reactions you know I wasn't planning on doing that. I didn't want to treat her that way. You were doing something good. I was trying to cook for her and it just irritated me that now I had to rethink it through because I just I that's what's hard about cooking for me is figuring out what to cook.
Yes. So regardless none of my reaction that was not right. And so a lot of this stuff though is is learning the importance of coming back around and repairing. Because most of this stuff we're gonna get wrong.
We're not gonna do it right in the beginning. And are we committed to coming back around and repairing that that conversation or reconnecting. So Jean this is a tender question. There was a time in your marriage where you didn't feel like you were a good enough wife. And of course we've all been there.
I've been there. What were you thinking and feeling at the time and then how did Jim handle your heart? That was early on like a year into our marriage. Two years.
Yes probably three years actually. And there was a lot going on. We had made a major move. Jim had made a career change. I had a job change. There were significant things going on with one of my brothers.
My workplace was really unhealthy. And we had left the the move. We had made some really sweet friendships as couples.
That's hard. And a couple of those two of the women they were my friends but they were really mentors to me. They'd been married longer and had children. So there was oh and you know the honeymoon period was over and the newlywed period had passed. It hasn't ended for me.
Jim's off riding his motorcycle who knows where. There was a lot going on and as I look back I was feeling emotionally isolated. And our marriage was not good. We did not know how to talk to each other. We didn't bring those tools into our marriage.
That was modeled for us. And I remember one night we were laying in bed probably as far apart as possible in the bed. But I started crying in bed. And Jim do you want to share what? Well I mean I didn't understand what was happening.
You know there is that male. Did you lose your wedding ring? You're not as tied in. I mean she even hearing her articulate those things that we were facing that she was facing. I was not clued in to any of that which is terrible when you think about it.
And so I just felt like man what is she melting down about. And so I just remember saying you know that well divorce won't be an option. So we got to figure out how to do this better then.
Kind of matter of fact. And you know that was many years ago 38 years now. And you know we're still working on things which is what you do. But but you know I I think we've had an incredible life and a great run together. So when so in those moments though so coach us guys. So tears crying in the bed. Like what what is it that your hope? What is your hope in that moment?
Like how do we shine out? Yeah yeah literally yeah yeah. What would you say Jean for you? In that moment you know I did say to Jim I I don't feel like I'm a good wife.
Right. You know I felt like a failure as a wife. I felt like our marriage was failing. And what I needed and Jim did assure me that you know I'm here for you. Divorce isn't an option.
You're amazing. Let's figure this out together. So what I needed was empathy. Not to feel alone. Right not to feel alone. And that partnership and that reassurance we're gonna make it.
Let's let's get some resources some help and we're gonna figure this out together. I love that. There is something about just in those moments.
Again will you be there for me? And I love Jim how you showed up in that way. I know God's been the the verse that he's had me just kind of locked into lately is Ephesians 5 26 and 27 which has always been super confusing because it says to make her holy. So this is Paul talking about Jesus in his bride the church. So to make her holy cleansing her by the washing of the water through the word to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish but holy and blameless.
Like I read that and go okay like I don't connect with any of those words. And so historically I would see that here I'm the marriage guy the VP of marriage and focus and I would just go okay I'm sure it means something whatever but I finally went I probably should figure out what what is why is this even here. Yeah what is so cool is that all this verse is really saying is that Jesus as husband to the church what he's doing is he's nurturing her to help her become the best version of who God created her to be. Like he's he's unlocking all these gifts and talents and now helping her to become that best version to release her.
Because you think about what Jesus ultimately did with the church through the Great Commission is he unleashed his bride the church into this world who so desperately right needed a Savior. And when I finally understood that that was a huge paradigm shift for me because it made me go you know what why we do all this stuff why we use the tools and create the safety and sacrifice and all this stuff as a husband it really is to help our wife so for me to help Aaron become that best version to see what how God's gonna unleash her. Every time that you showed up and you comforted you know Jean you look for the ring somewhere in the toilet that was lost. Like I think that's all done to help her become that best version kind of because at the end of my life and I want I want to my hope is that Aaron will be able to say you know what Greg made a difference in my life like being married to Greg made a difference in a good way. That's my goal is to know that I made a difference in your life and improved your life.
Yeah well Greg and Aaron and my lovely Jean it was so good to have this chat with you the last couple of days. I hope it was helpful for people and you know the goal here is just to be here for you if you're in that spot where you need help give us a call. We do hope that you'll contact us here at Focus on the Family if we can be of any benefit to you and your marriage or family. We have so many resources here for you like the healthy marriage devotional that Jim wrote. Of course we have our counseling team or our Hope Restored marriage intensives for couples who may feel like they just need to walk away from their marriage. If that's you or someone you know please contact us about Hope Restored. God does miraculous things in relationships of couples who attend Hope Restored we just have to seek help and he answers.
Our number is 800-232-6459 to learn about any of those resources. Again 800 the letter A in the word family or stop by the show notes for all the details. And let me put this challenge out if you and your spouse are in a good place let me encourage you to partner with Focus on the Family to help strengthen other marriages. That's the ministry we do together. Be part of it I think this accrues to your account in heaven I know it does. So jump on board with this be a partner to pray for us and to financially invest in those families. Yeah do so today when you call 800-A Family or click the link in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your marriage can be redeemed even if the fights seem constant even if there's been an affair even if you haven't felt close in years no matter how deep the wounds are you can take a step toward healing them with a Hope Restored Marriage Intensive. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face challenges together. We'll talk with you pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. Call us at 1-866-875-2915
