Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, marriage coaches Dave and Ashley Willis are going to explain the ups and downs of intimacy in marriage and the importance of maintaining that close connection. There is a security that goes deep when your kids know how much you've still got it for their mom, for their dad.
They love that. Well, thanks for joining us today. I'm John Fuller. John, Dave and Ashley Willis have been on this program several times, and I think we could call them fan favorites. I know you're going to enjoy this very lively presentation today. For those who are listening instead of watching on YouTube, let me explain the visuals. Dave and Ashley are on a stage with four different chairs that represent the four different seasons of intimacy in marriage, which they'll explain in just a minute.
There's a beach chair, a rocking chair from a nursery, a kitchen bar stool, and a chair that is broken. That's the setup. I should add that Dave and Ashley are prolific authors and they have a new podcast called Marriage on the Line. Yeah, and we'll link over to that in the show notes. Here now, Dave and Ashley Willis speaking at a marriage conference at Church of the Highlands in Birmingham, Alabama.
We're starting after their opening remarks. As you might have guessed, this content is not going to be suitable for younger listeners. We want to talk in this session about some of the wrong messages about sex that our culture has tried to get us to believe through the broken views of sex that we're taught through entertainment or what passes for entertainment and through the baggage that we bring into marriage. We believe every person has some form of sexual baggage, even if you entered marriage a virgin just because of mindsets we had or insecurities we had or beliefs that were maybe incongruent with what God says about sex.
We all bring all this in. This is the one area where the enemy would like to attack your mindset and your marriage more than anything else. If he can cause division within the marriage bed, then he is on his way to just doing his part to unravel so much in the marriage.
But this is an area where God wants you to fight for unity and joy and peace and freedom. God wants you to have freedom and joy in the marriage bed, in your sex life. Your sex life should thrive, and sex should be something that you guys not only prioritize but even pray about. Pray specifically about that part of your marriage, but also know that in different seasons it's going to look different. There's a verse in Ecclesiastes that says this in Ecclesiastes 3.1, there is a season for everything, a time for every activity under heaven.
It goes into a long and beautiful poetic passage. It's about all the seasons of life. But as it relates to sex, if there's a season for everything, it means that there are seasons of sex. And so we've got these four chairs up here to represent the way we understand or the way we see it, four distinct seasons of sex. Now these chairs don't maybe mean what you think they mean, and they don't happen in sequential order. And in your marriage, you're going to sit in each of these chairs multiple times. And you need to know what to expect when you get there, because in every one of these seasons, your marriage, your sex life can still thrive, but it's going to look different. And so let's start down on this end. What is this beach chair represent, sweetie?
All right. You can call this like the beach season. You know, a lot of times we equate this with the honeymoon phase where, you know, it's all just, it's happening a lot. You're having lots of sex and it's great. It's nice. It's comfortable. Yeah, it's hot. It's literally hot.
Right. And you know, it's a place, it's a place of comfort. It's a place maybe of a little adventure, spiciness, whatever you want to call it. And I think we all, you know, we all think that we're going to stay here. Like if we're having a good sex life, that it has to look like this beach season, but the truth is, you know, life happens and we can't just live at the beach guys, right?
There's like actual life that's happening. You'd be sunburned. You got, you can't live at the beach, but I will say this though. The beach season is not just for honeymooners. I believe that you can spend more time in the, in the beach season the longer you're married because you get more secure in your own skin and you get to know what the other one likes and doesn't like and you learn each other's rhythms and you grow in your comfort and your confidence with one another. And I think that really the longer you're married, the more opportunity you have to be that. So don't believe the myth that it's like, it's going to look like that at the very beginning and then never again. I think sometimes you have to grow into the beach season and it can be, it can be something that you enjoy as time goes on.
Yes. But one of the things that sabotages the beach season more than any others is the baby season. All these start with B by the way.
It's the beach babies, busy, broken, and you know what? You're going to sit in all four. So the baby season, if you have kids, you'll sit in this one. It makes sex really hard, right?
Because here's God's, you know, ironic sense of humor when it comes to sex. You make the babies by having sex and then when the babies come, they do everything in your power to make sure you never have it again, right? They just don't want you to. It's like they know, they know when you lock that door, it's like there's this little spidey since they get two in the, Oh, I think mom and dad are trying to have a moment.
Yes. Let's go sabotage that and they do like you'll hear like our kid knock on the door every time. Mom and dad, what are you doing in there? And it's like nothing. Just give us a second. And you're like, but I need help with my homework.
It's like, it's fine. You're in third grade. It doesn't count.
It's not even on your final transcript. This is a waste of my time. Just leave me alone. And we're like yelling at these four child. Then we come out of, you know, 10 minutes later and it's like, Hey buddy, I don't know what that's about. Don't know. But you're relaxed.
Like, Hey buddy, I'm sorry I yelled. I don't know what came over me, but I'm feeling much better now. Let's figure that homework out, right? You know, but it just, it gets difficult. It is difficult. And you have to, you have to prioritize. You got to put those kids to bed early sometimes.
Yes. And let me tell you, whenever we talk about this, we'll always have people say, but it makes the kids angry when we tell them that we have to put them to bed maybe a little early on a special night, if you know what I mean. And I'm like, well, yeah, of course. I mean, but we're the parents and we can say, I'm so sorry that you don't want to go to bed, you know, 30 minutes to an hour early, but this is mom and dad's time.
Like we actually use that language. We say this is mommy, daddy time, you know, depending on their age. And I think it's good to do that. I mean, not like you want to find reasons to disappoint your kids, but they also need to know the world doesn't revolve around them. Your marriage is supposed to be sustained past raising kids.
Yes. You're like, yeah, I know, I know, but we got to have this time together and it takes us being our own advocates. Like we have to be our own advocates. And really, you know, if you're in kind of a, I don't know, the habit of not taking this time, you're going to get a lot of pushback from your kids and they may not understand it, but let me tell you, over time, they're going to get it and they're going to love seeing you pinch your spouse's butt. They're going to be like grossed out. Or when you peck each other on the cheek or on the, on the lips, they're going to be like, but deep inside their heart, they love seeing their parents love each other.
You guys, they love it. There is a security that goes deep when your kids know how much you've still got it for their mom, for their dad, they love that. And so we want to be able to give that. I mean, it's not only for us, this is for them too.
Yeah. So prioritize it is don't, don't neglect your sex life when you're raising kids. Cause when you do, what happens is you wind up with an empty nest and an empty marriage someday. Cause you realize we were so focused on the kids that we stopped being best friends. We stopped being husband and wife. We stopped being intimate and now it's, we, we, we have nothing in common and we've raised these kids and we've given them a model of marriage that they don't want to emulate themselves. And then they go off their own way and we're left alone with each other. And that's why there's an epidemic of divorce.
It's called a gray divorce where there's an epidemic of divorce of people who have been married for, you know, 20, 30 plus years and then wake up one day and they're like, we've got nothing in common. We're not connected. We're going to go our different ways guys.
And that's tragic. And so we've got to stay connected in this season. And you also have to stay connected in this season. This is the busy season. This isn't like a kitchen stool, right? It's a chair you sit in frequently. You know, it's an everyday kind of chair.
Like in our house, the kitchen stools get a ton of traffic, but it's a high traffic area where there's a lot of other stuff going on. And sometimes in a busy season of marriage, we think, why doesn't it feel like it did at the beach? You know, why didn't it feel like it did when we just had nothing but time and no distractions and we could just, you know, live in that kind of mindset and maybe something's wrong with our marriage because now we're, we're in this busy season. But guys, you can stay connected in the busy season. You just have to know that it's busy and it's going to look different, but we need to prioritize that we're going to sit down together. We're going to connect together. We're going to prioritize our sex life together and rearrange our schedule if we have to, to make sure that this is happening regularly. And I want to say something real quick about this busy seat over here. In our questions that many of you sent in, a lot of you referenced I'm going through a season of infertility and that just breaks my heart because I know that that's a common struggle for so many and it, it really can bring on all kinds of feelings and you know, we've walked this with lots of friends of ours and I know that when you're in that season of infertility or you're really trying to have a child and it's not happening in the time that you want it to, you're kind of stuck over here in the busy seat.
You're taking your body temperature, you're measuring the ovulation, you're trying to figure out when is the right time and all of a sudden sex becomes work and it can really cause friction between a husband and wife. And then you're taking tests, you're trying to find out why isn't this happening when we thought it would happen and, and it can really cause a lot of disillusionment. And what we see is when couples are doing this, they might physically be making love, but their hearts are really far apart. And I just want to say, don't let that happen to you. Remember that your relationship is what happened first.
Okay. You know, you can't look at each other as this baby making machine that is malfunctioning. God has his perfect timing for you. If he put in your heart that you're supposed to have children, that's going to happen. It may not happen in the timing that you expected.
It could happen in different ways, like maybe even adoption. I don't know what your story is, but I want you to know that there is hope and, and, and you don't need to look at each other as the enemy. You are partners in this. Okay. And it's really important not to point fingers, but just to really love each other through it. And sometimes it means taking a break from all the measuring the body temperature and all the ovulation calendar and just go spend some time at the beach guys, like figuratively and also like go to the beach.
Okay. Go to the beach, give yourself a break, go have a break and just enjoy each other. Take the pressure off. I can't tell you how many stories of people going through a season of infertility where they decide they're going to stop doing all the tests and they like literally go to the beach or go on a little vacay and just kind of enjoy each other.
And what do you know? They ended up pregnant. It's like the stress was gone.
Again, I don't know if that's going to be your story. I know that God knows, but I do know that God wants us to cherish each other through each and every one of these seasons. Man, that's so good. Well, there's one chair left.
It's a, it's the most difficult one and it's also the most important one. And how you respond to each other in this chair this season, it will do more to make or break your marriage than any of the others. And this is the broken season. And there are a lot of different things that can lead a couple here. It can be an actual physical limitation. You know, you might find yourself, you know, literally physically your body is broken through some injury or illness to the point where for a season or maybe even a lifetime, you, you physically cannot have intercourse. You have to find ways to be intimate and connect in other ways being as innovative as you can because, you know, you're, you're limited physically. But very often what leads us into this broken season, it isn't a physical limitation. It's, it's something else. Something else has been broken. Our trust has been broken.
When trust has been broken in your marriage, you know, sex can feel so difficult. And I've been here very recently. In fact, just, just kind of fresh out of this chair. It was a physical thing, a hormonal thing for me. So I mentioned yesterday that I got diagnosed with this thyroid disorder. I didn't even know what a thyroid was at the time, but it's this thing in your neck, apparently, and controls all kinds of stuff in your body.
So I learned that. I'm like, okay, that's fine. So is there medicine for that? They're like, yeah, here's medicine, you know, to regulate. And so I got the thyroid part right. But what I didn't know at the time, and they didn't necessarily take the time to really explain at the time, is that one of the main symptoms of that is that your hormones are going to be off, and specifically your testosterone levels can just plummet. And so I was living with a baseline testosterone that was so low for like a long time. And once I started realizing that was what was going on, I didn't really know how to regulate it. I felt like now this insecurity, like my gosh, I mean, am I even a man?
I've got this really low, none of this measure of manhood is so low. And now it explains why I don't have any drive. And then I started, because of that, knowing, oh my gosh, I don't have any testosterone.
Not only did I not have drive, I started to get real anxiety. Like sex, guys, it looked different. And it was something that I went from like craving constantly to something that I was literally afraid of because I was panicked of what might happen if we got into that moment. And so Ashley was, again, so tender, so compassionate. And we actually, through that season, I felt like connected intimately in ways. And I mean like intimacy on every level in a completely new way because we didn't take any of it for granted. And there was such acceptance, and there was such support and love. And it was like naked and unashamed. It was like she saw me, all my insecurities and like everything I was going through inside, like both mentally, emotionally, and hormonally.
And she just chose to like help bring out the best in me. And so like eventually finally got that under control and finally got on the right like medication and everything to start bringing that back up and was able to step out of that chair and now like really, really appreciate all these other seasons because I know what it's like to sit there. But I'll tell you this, like I'm not afraid of this season anymore. Like there was a time where I was so afraid of what's going to happen one day when my body doesn't work right anymore. What's going to happen one day if we face an illness or an injury and we're here?
Like are we going to even be able to make it? And I'm not afraid of it anymore because in it God can do something in us that he can't do in any of these other seasons. And something can happen in our marriage that can't happen anywhere else. And so maybe you're here today and you feel like you're in this broken season as it relates to your marriage and maybe specifically your sex life.
And maybe it's because of things that I've talked about. And like every couple is going to experience some of this and nobody talks about it. But we've got to just be willing to say like we're going to look for solutions together in every season and we're going to support each other in every season. And whatever season we're in, we're not going to be afraid of where we are. We're going to connect with God and connect with each other because God's got good things for us.
It's so true. You know, in the broken season as well, it's just a place where we have to remember to be super tender with each other because that tenderness, I'm telling you all that that alone is sexy, like knowing that you are accepted just as you are and that you're not making your spouse feel worse because they can't perform as they once were able to do or whatever the situation is and just being really extra tender with each other. And I know what we learned in the broken season, and I know it's not going to be the only time that we're going to be in there again. Like Dave said, we're going to find ourselves there a lot through the rest of our lives. But one thing that kind of was just so clear to me is that during the broken season, it's a place where you need to slow it down.
Okay. Especially when it comes to things in the bedroom, don't be afraid to slow down. And when you're having any kind of hormonal imbalance, whether it's, you know, a testosterone issue or it may be in the season of menopause, we need to slow down because a lot of times there's issues where sex can start hurting or it's very awkward. It's just not quite what it used to be.
Like there's the anxiety that comes with maybe not being able to perform, to experience intercourse. And what we need to do in that season is just really slow it down, talk. And let me tell you during our season, I told Dave, and this may kind of gross you guys out, but like I told him, I said, I really like forgot how awesome it was to just like make out with you because we were slowing it down. And I said, it's so, there's such intimacy in that when it's not just like, okay, let's do this.
Let's get it done. Like kind of like in the busy seat over here. And I just, I was like, I really miss that. I miss that so much. And I'm just so glad that, that God kind of reminded me of that, that beautiful connection of just slowing things down. And so when we look at these different seasons of not, of not like one being better than the other, I think that, you know, we just kind of see it in a new light and it can really help us. Really what we're hoping through this discussion is that when you leave this conference, maybe you guys can talk about this. You can first talk about like, where do you think we are?
Like what season are we in right now? And also let's talk about what it's going to be like when we're in one of these other seasons. You know, how are we going to handle that? How are we going to prioritize sex? And you know, what if we go through a diagnosis? Like what are we going to do?
What's that going to look like? And you guys, we can't always know what's going to come our way, but when we decide now that we're going to, we're going to go through it together and we're going to be tender with each other and we're going to fight for each other. It's amazing that when those hard times do come, you're going to grow closer through it.
Cause that's really what God did. I mean, I feel like even though not every moment was amazing, I mean, there were a lot of hard moments and hard conversations. There were times when I could just see on Dave's face, just the, the anxiety and even the shame.
I think there was a bit and for men, especially when they feel like they have a testosterone issue, there's so many men that are ashamed of that and really don't get help because of it. And that's one reason why we're sharing this from the stage because I mean, Hey, it's not comfortable talking about your hormones and your own problems and stuff like that. But we feel like if God can use it to help somebody else to get the help that they need, then awesome. You know, again, he never wastes our pain. And so I just hope that today, you know, if that's you, whether a man or a woman having like these issues that we're talking about, go, go and get help.
Talk to your spouse about it. There is no shame in that guys. Absolutely. We're human beings. We go through different phases and seasons and, and we just need to get the help that will kind of help us go through it better because there are solutions. I mean, it's amazing how him going and seeing a doctor and finding out about the low T and then getting something that actually helps them, how it's boosted your confidence.
It's been really good for you. We live in a time where there are more solutions than ever because of medicine and other things. So you don't have some things in life. You just, you have to live with and just lean on God for, but a lot of things while you're leaning on God for it, we have to be really proactive to find solutions because there are solutions out there. So how do we kind of land in the plane with, with some of these things?
How do we navigate each of these seasons? Communication, like Ashley said, is the key to intimacy in all parts of your marriage. So communication is the most important ingredient to a thriving sex life.
It just is. You got to communicate. You got to talk about all of it and the truth will help you.
Yeah, absolutely. But we had to communicate about where we were and this is part of what you have to communicate about. You got to communicate honestly about your desires, your dislikes, your insecurities and be honest, but be tender with each other. Not like critical of each other, especially in the bedroom in those vulnerable moments. But to be honest about like what feels good and what doesn't and all of those things. Proverbs says it this way, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips. Like there is intimacy in honesty and the depth of your honesty will determine the depth of your intimacy.
And you got to be willing to just share. Like this is, this is what's going through my mind right now. Like, and this is what I'm struggling with right now. And this is what I'm feeling insecure about right now. Or this is what I'm fantasizing with you about right now. And to just be able to make your marriage bed the safest place on earth to talk about all those things.
Absolutely. And I think it's important to you to play to each other's strengths. Like if there's a certain time of day when you're more inclined to be romantic or you're in a better mood and you feel like there's not so much mental clutter that's taken up space and you can actually enjoy sex, then speak to your spouse about that and say, listen, I want to enjoy this with you, but this time of day is just rough for me because I'm decompressing from picking up kids and work obligations or whatever it is. We got to be honest about that and then play to each other's strengths. Like find those times where you can both hopefully be at your best and really not hold it against each other.
You know, Dave's so good about that. Like he is really a morning person. Well, morning and midday. Kind of midday is like when he shines. You never hear about a midday person, do you? Is anybody else a midday person? I wish I had this.
Like it would help me in my life. We're people too. Where's our thing? It's like, it's not just morning and night people. Where's the midday?
I know. Because you really, I mean, you're good in the morning, but midday it's like you could literally solve all the world's problems. It's amazing. Be back for that afternoon session.
It's going to blow your mind. You are, but he's, you know, he's firing on all cylinders, but I tend to be more of a night person. Who are my night people? A lot of night people. And I didn't even, morning people, I skipped over you.
Who's the morning people in the crowd? Yay. Awesome.
Okay. So I mean, we all kind of have our flow, right? And I am such a night owl and I always have been my family.
It's a bunch of night owls, but that's like not Dave's best time. So we found we really, our best times of day are different. So we just try to make sure that we, we play to each other's strengths for both of us. Yeah. You let me go to bed early and then I tuck you in, you know, is that what we're calling it?
All right. She tucks me in real good. And then we have our little time together.
Yes. And then I get to go to sleep and she's like doing projects early in the marriage. She would get like offended. Like, why don't you want to start painting this room with me at 11 PM? I'm like, I'm like, I don't know because I'm a normal person that doesn't like to start projects at midnight, but it was just her rhythm.
I didn't make her feel bad for it. And I, you know, I get up early and we just embraced each other's flow, but we've tried to find a way to give each other our best energy through the day instead of giving each other our leftovers in all parts of our marriage. You know, don't fall into the trap of just giving your spouse your leftovers. Really try to give your spouse your best and to believe and see the best in each other. And we'll have to end this message from Dave and Ashley Willis right there on this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Yeah, John. And there's a lot more content that we weren't able to include because of our time limitations. So let me encourage you to get a copy of Dave and Ashley's book from us and we'll include a free audio download of the entire presentation.
The book is called The Counterfeit Climax, Confronting the Issues that Sabotage Sex, Romance, and Relationships. And we'd be happy to send that out to you for a gift of any amount, either a one-time gift or a monthly pledge. And as we've said before, Jim, that monthly pledge is the most helpful way to keep us on budget and kind of on an even keel throughout the year. That's how you and Gene and Dina and I support the ministry and we invite you to join that team of monthly donors. Yeah, we are, John.
That's true. And I also want to thank those of you who have made that monthly commitment. Thank you. You're making it possible for us to offer so many resources to so many people who need help. And if this message from Dave and Ashley has brought up some issues in your life, please give us a call. Our friendly staff would count it a privilege to hear your concerns and pray with you. And if needed, you can request a free call back from one of our Caring Christian Counselors. Now, if your marriage really needs a rescue, let me recommend our Hope Restored four-day intensives, which have an 80% success rate. Many couples say it's like getting a year's worth of counseling in just a few days. And 99% say they would recommend Hope Restored to a friend.
That's pretty good. And we have locations from coast to coast. And speaking of travel, I hope you'll come visit us here in Colorado Springs this summer. We have a terrific Welcome Center where you can relax, grab a bite to eat and let the kids burn off a little of that steam in our safe indoor play area. There's all sorts of activities for them to enjoy. Yeah, we love seeing families come by and stop at the Welcome Center. And it is a favorite spot for so many.
The locals love it. Join them and learn more about what we have to offer. We'll have details in the show notes. And when you're online, be sure to donate and request your copy of The Counterfeit Climax by Dave and Ashley Willis and get that free audio download as well. And this reminder that if you need to talk to someone about these kinds of sensitive issues, we're here.
Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Take a moment please and leave a rating in your podcast app or platform and share this episode with a friend.
Help spread the word about this great content. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your marriage can be redeemed, even if the fights seem constant, even if there's been an affair, even if you haven't felt close in years. No matter how deep the wounds are, you can take a step toward healing them with a hope restored marriage intensive. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face challenges together. We'll talk with you, pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. Call us at 1-866-875-2915.
