Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NC Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. The 2022 Dobbs decision was a major victory for the pro-life movement.
However, numerous losses on state-level ballot initiatives since then show the need to win hearts and minds. Lasting protections for the pre-born will require us to focus on the hearts and minds of our fellow citizens. We will need many of them to convert from a pro-choice position to a pro-life one. Today, we are joined by someone who did exactly that. Nathaniel Torrey joins us to discuss his journey from being pro-choice to pro-life, what it's like to wrestle with this topic as a man when much of the pro-choice movement suggests is an issue only women should speak about, and how we can reach across the aisle in ways that encourage reconsideration.
Nathaniel, welcome to Family Policy Matters. Glad to be here.
So we're looking at today how you kind of make a transition from a pro-choice position in the past, sort of a generic, what the culture believes, sort of a package worldview of a liberal perspective, into a now pro-life Christian perspective. When you were perhaps the most pro-choice, what did that position look like? If you were describing that position at the time? Here's the thing. I think in some sense, my continued belief in that position requires a lack of definite things to maintain the position.
Like if someone had asked me like six weeks or heartbeat or late trimester, like I would have been like, I don't know. I just know women shouldn't be told what to do. Like that would have been where I was at. And like, just to give as an example where just one of the first steps where it started to be problematized for me is that when I was younger, I would go to like a lot of like rock shows and stuff like local music and stuff like that. And at that time, so this would have been like the early 2000s, there was a not insignificant contingent of bands that were Christian.
And so I remember being at one of these shows, but I remember there was a band handing out these pamphlets. And the pamphlets were the ones that of like the real grizzly stuff, dismembered limbs on the quarter or whatever, like really grisly stuff. And I remember seeing that and going, oh. Oh, like it's like it didn't connect to me. It's like I didn't really know, like when I said I was pro-choice, what that really meant.
Like, I didn't know that, oh, like, this is the end where I'm seeing like fingers and hands and stuff like that. And seeing that was like probably one of the first where I'm like, this is not, I don't, I don't like that. Like, it gives you pause. And I'm like, well, but all these other things I think are true.
So you disregard the information.
So I think the biggest basic part is that I was very into what I would say liberal autonomy. And so that was a big part of my package deal.
So just like definitionally, in my mind, it was like you can't tell someone what to do with something that is that proximate to themselves. I think that would have been my basic position. It's kind of like none of your business, basically, is what I would have said, something to that effect.
So I think that leads well, and you're maybe already answering sort of where I wanted to go with that, which was there particular points that anchored you? It seems that it's a broad moral framework, more so perhaps in your case than like a personal attachment to someone or an experience something. It was. being part of the liberal freedom and independence and autonomy. Yes.
So would you say like autonomy was the anchor that would have held you from being pulled off by those images? Or? Yeah, I think it was more like something to the effect of like, I know this team has to be right.
Okay. Because we're anti-authority, we're protecting autonomy, we're anti-war, we're all these other issues. Because we're all these things, like we have to be right on this one also.
So something like that.
So it sounds like it was almost an identity issue. Like you identified with I don't want to like transpose the considerations of today's politics, but to a certain degree of this is the side that's compassionate and caring and peaceful and loving. And so I am into cool music. I am smart. I do these things.
I'm going to go to college. This, that, and the other thing. These are what the beliefs of those people. And that's what I am. I'm an artistic, sophisticated person.
And artistic, sophisticated people think this is fine.
So that's who I am.
Okay. Yeah. This is that. I mean, this is why we wanted to have you on because it's interesting to find somebody that can look back and realistically think through the mindset in that space.
So that's. I will say this just as a caveat. Like, this was very much like a water is wet scenario. Like in this, I don't know if you've heard the joke where it's like, there's a fish, comes up to these other fish and says, water's great today. And the fish look at each other and go, what the heck is water?
Yeah. So it's like, it's kind of like I was not aware of all this when it was going on. And to me, I just thought like, I'm just, you know, following reality where it goes. And this is, of course, right because of these other things. Yeah.
So before your views began to change, how often did you think about it? It sounds like not much. Like pro-choice wasn't really the big ball in your jar. It was just part of it. I was more like my politics were basically gleaned from the lyrics of punk rock albums at that time in my life.
So I was more concerned about like, say, like more like social justice was more my beat that I thought I was going to get enraged about anything. That's what I was thinking.
Okay. Interesting.
So now let's talk. more about then the transition from being pro-choice to pro-life. You mentioned that it's tied to your conversion. Yes.
So it's sort of accepting that if I'm going to go with this bucket, that's one of the things in this bucket. Yes.
And because it's tied to your conversion, was the process quick, gradual, a sudden realization? I would say that I would include like those pamphlets as sort of parting of a process as sort of like, you know, cracking through an iceberg. Like you have like one crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, crack, something like that. Where then it seems like accomplished kind of.
So I would say. That was sort of one piece of it. And then I think it was just like when I was late in high school and then college at St. John's, like you just read a lot of books by people who think differently than you, and you meet a lot of people that think differently than you. And I'd gone to some, like, some other summer camps and things where I was exposed to people who I would have thought of as like the other team.
And so it started to become obvious that these other team people are like people, you know, like they're humans and that they have good reasons for believing the things they do, even if at the time I couldn't like agree with them on things. I was like, we can disagree here about this. Like, I see why. And so I sort of had this development where it's almost like, in some sense, the agnostic phase kind of really cleared the jungle, you might say, for the religious conversion piece, because I was already on a position where you're pro-choice, you're pro-life, I don't think necessarily means you're like the devil. And so a lot of that worked.
So it wasn't like when I had my religious conversion, I was like, oh, but this abortion issue is so important. I don't understand why the church teaches this or this, that, and the other thing. And I'm like wrestling with it. It wasn't like that. And I think that's due in large part.
To that phase of agnosticism, because it at least made it intellectually possible for me to think that people who disagreed on this issue were like monsters. I think there's a lot of benefit to us all embracing that logic these days. The people that think differently might not be monsters. Yeah. That's interesting.
I think there's a lot of temptation, even in the pro-life movement or in the evangelism movement. We need to get our interlocutor or the person we're evangelizing or the person we're engaging with all the way over to our side. And it sounds like for you, a big part of the value was just getting you open. Yeah. And then by creating an open space and an agnosticism, now you were much more capable of even engaging with the possibility of.
And I will say that also was easier to do precisely because I met some Christians who didn't treat me like a monster, despite disagreeing with them. Relative to them, I was like a complete worldling, you know, but they were really nice. And I was like, wait, these people might actually believe what they say they believe. But I was like, I think. That was a big part of it too.
Is like being treated that way, I think, made me then more like, well, made me open to being treating them that way, if that makes sense. No, I think. Like, it's flawed me a bit. You might say.
So, when you're making the conversion then to Orthodox Christianity and you're aware that abortion will be one of the things that changes with that, A, is that something you were particularly aware of in your discernment of the conversion? Or B, was it something that once you felt the certainty of conversion, you then had to wrestle with independently at all? I don't think that's, yeah, I don't think I'd, once I'd made this decision, it's almost like that decision was made. I knew that in some way, I certainly couldn't be like in favor of abortion, but I also knew that in some sense, I could not just maintain agnosticism. Like, that wasn't ever on the table.
Like, well, maybe I can just like pretend this isn't a thing, you know? And I knew that, like, just like in a very, because this was leading up to an election year. But yeah, at that time, I knew that it was going to change how I voted. I mean, that was the most like immediate practical consequence. It was just like, I knew it was going to change how I voted.
So did you struggle? Like when people convert, sometimes there's often a, this is going to be a hard struggle because all the people I've known are over there. How was that for you? I think for most people, there were other things they were more concerned about than my issue, my stance on that issue, or maybe it was like all sucked up in one thing. And I will say that it wasn't immediate, but I had a fairly aggressive change of people who I associated with when I converted.
I didn't stay in the same circles for a super long. Part of that was like pretty soon after I graduated.
So it's not like I was with one group of people for very long, but it wasn't like I was hanging out with a lot of people who would have been very different from me. Cause I think it was, in some sense, a great grace of total, this is the direction you're moving in.
So the timing for you almost worked out to have a cleaner switch. It was a transitory time of life.
Okay. He might say I was not like rooted in a deep community where I'd been a member for years and years and years or anything like that. I mean, people were like, really? Like, you're getting religion? Like, what?
You? Yeah. There's that. Yeah, I could see the faith shift. Going from effectively liberal agnostic to conservative Christian is that's the big yeah.
So now we're in the say post-pro-life in your Christian phase. Did your pro-life position further evolve after that? Like, so now you've embraced, well, as an Eastern Orthodox, pro-life is going to be part of this. Did you then further chew on that topic and that kind of became more of a clear, distinct big ball in the jar? Or?
Yeah, I think it has, and I think it has over time. It has because I see it as more like symptomatic. And I think I've become perhaps deeper and deeper and more conscious of what I think is sort of like below it all.
So in that sense, I feel what's weird. In some sense, I feel that there's more urgency perhaps than ever on the issue, but at the same time, I think of it as symptomatic. And so in that sense, I feel like there are a lot of other things that people don't talk about or think about as much that I think are contributing. They're sort of underlying. Underlying.
Yeah. So from a practical perspective, being able to reflect back on what it was to be a good-intentioned liberal thinker, default pro-life, are there secular arguments? Because you mentioned if you take human dignity and just go full in, it should lead to defending the pre-born. Are there convincing arguments to a secular mind that you think exist that perhaps pro-lifers should be aware of? Are there arguments that you think work, or do you think the real thing is getting them to the neutral space?
Well, I think the neutral space is really important. People need to rehumanize each other and get from behind screens and talk to each other.
So that's like certainly would go a long way on some of these issues. This sounds like really basic, what I'm about to say, but it's like, do things that have human DNA, are they human? It's like, that seems kind of obvious. Like, well, if I'm taking, if I take a sample and it says human today, I'm going to assume this thing is human. Great.
Shouldn't we then treat it like a human being? If it's a human? I mean, like, maybe that sounds like, to me, I'm like, that seems sort of pedestrian and sort of embarrassing to say it that way. But then I, and then they would say, well, if someone says to you, well, no, then I would say, okay, then what is the benchmark? When are they human that we can start treating them like a human being?
I think any answer you give to that question, other than if they have human DNA, that you should treat them like a human being, starts to go to some scary places very quickly. Because if it's about independence, it's like people in wheelchairs, people who have mental disabilities, people who are just didn't have the same opportunities or education. Do they not deserve the same treatment? You open this like Pandora's box of problems that I don't see I put the lid back on. And then there's sort of a thought experiment that I think of from time to time is, okay, let's say you wake up and there's a baby on your doorstep.
So I'm just like old school, like, please take care of this baby. Do you have a right to put that baby in a trash can? I think most people would say no. That you would have to go to great lengths to find someone who would be willing to take care of this baby. And if you literally could find no one, you would still be obliged to not throw this baby in a garbage can.
And if you want to say, well, what's in a mother's womb at first is not a baby, not a human, then you go back to the first thing. It's like, okay, when is it a baby? When is it a baby when it comes out? Is it baby if it's a wanted? You know what I mean?
Like you start to, there's, and it starts to not be clear how you could stop any of these questions. Once you open that door, I don't know of a meaningful criteria that you can say, okay, guys, let's knock it off. I think you can't really answer those questions adequately.
Well, I certainly appreciate you joining us and sharing your perspectives. I think the more we can engage the other side as humans, the more we see disagreement as honest and sincere and well-intentioned and worth engaging. I think we'll have more of that hope. Thank you for joining us. If you want to hear the full interview with Nathaniel, you can watch the full video found on our YouTube channel or on our website at.
ncfamily.org forward slash videos. That's ncfamily.org forward slash videos. God bless. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review.
To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org. That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
