Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NC Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. And now here's the host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy DeVett-Griggs. Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters.
Today we welcome back Dan Darling, director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement and author of several thoughtful books on faith and public life. His new book, In Defense of Christian Patriotism, takes on a subject that's both timely and controversial. What does it mean to love our country? as followers of Jesus.
Well, he invites us to recover a balanced biblical vision, one that honors both God and the good gifts of our nation. Dan Darling, thanks for joining us today.
Well, thank you for having me, Trace.
So the title of your new book is In Defense of Christian Patriotism.
So why do you think this book just had to be written at this time in our culture? There's a few reasons. One, you know, Christians are really wrestling today with how do I think about the country that God has given me? What's the proper posture? You know, there's a lot being written, sort of warning Christians about being too engaged in politics, warning Christians about, you know, having too high of a love for their country that supersedes their love for God.
And so it's left a lot of Christians thinking that, you know, if I express any kind of patriotism, I must be doing something wrong. How do I feel about the country that God has given me? And then, of course, we're approaching America's 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. I think it's a good time to talk about patriotism, what that means. What does it mean to love your country?
How can I love? to do that in a way that's healthy, that orders my priorities right.
So hopefully it'll spark some really good conversations.
Okay.
Well let's unpack that a little bit. First let's talk about some of the unhealthy ways that people might try to be a Christian patriot.
Well, I think there's really two ways to do this wrongly, in my view. One is, like Jonah, to place love of your country and patriotism above the mission of God, right? God had called Jonah, who was a patriot in Israel, who had predicted correctly time of flourishing. God calls him to go to their enemy, to Assyria, to Nineveh, to tell them and warn them of God's judgment. And it's not that Jonah didn't think God could save.
the people of Assyria. It's that he didn't want them to, right? And Jonah had a view that he loved his country to the exclusion of every other country and all the nations. And I think that's a wrong way to think about patriotism. I think we should have a love for the nations to go into all the world and preach the gospel.
We see Revelation 5 and 7, where every nation, tribe, and tongue is gathered around the throne of God.
So I think that's a wrong way to view it. But I actually think a more common view today is kind of the opposite, a sort of indifference or even loathing of the country. And I see this every 4th of July when you just check social media and even well-meaning. Bible-believing Christians who are friends feel like they have to condition their love of country on that day or even list the laundry list of things that America's done wrong instead of just, you know, loving the nation. And I've had pushback even since the book released to say, oh, you're not supposed to love your country.
And I think that's a wrong approach as well. I mean, if you look at, for instance, what Jeremiah tells the exiles in Babylon, people of God, we sometimes as Christians feel like exiles in the world because the world opposes our values and all these things. And what does Jeremiah tell the exiles? He doesn't tell them to huddle up, to sort of not be engaged, but he says to plant, to build their families there. But more importantly, he tells them to seek the welfare, the flourishing of the city God has put them in and to pray for that city and that nation.
And I don't know how you seek the welfare or flourishing of a country that you hate or despise. I think patriotism also is a form of gratitude to say, I'm thankful for the country God has given me. And so I really want to work through this with believers. I think one of the false ideas we've been made to believe. Is that it's always a binary choice.
We either have a love and allegiance to God or allegiance to the country. And sometimes it does come to that. Peter in the book of Acts has to say, you know, the state is telling me not to preach. I have to pose the state in order to fulfill God's command. If the country or state tells us to violate what we believe, we of course have to put God over our country.
But most of the time, it's not about a binary choice, but it's about ordering your loves. And this is where I borrow from C.S. Lewis, where he talks about these things: that obviously God is highest, but we can have lesser allegiances. You know, I have people tell me, well, I can never pledge allegiance to the flag because we only pledge allegiance to Christ.
Well, we can make lesser pledges if our highest allegiance is to Christ. 23 years ago, I stood at the altar and pledged allegiance to my wife. And the minister didn't say, well, you have to choose God or your wife. No, you have a lesser allegiance that you honor well when you honor God first. Talk about the balance.
You just gave us two extremes. What do you see as a healthy balance between those two for a Christian?
Well, I think a healthy balance is obviously. Putting God first as our highest allegiance, but then loving our country in a way that honors its history, honors the ideals of our country, honors the people, the place, the land that God has given us. It's a form of gratitude. You know, G.K. Chesterton talked about this, that in a way, we start first with the things that are closest to us and we work outward in terms of our loves.
And I think it's very similar to 1 John, where he says, How can you love God if you don't love your neighbor? You start with the things closest to you as a form of practice of loving God. And I think that's that way with our country. I think a healthy patriotism is to say, we love our nation. We know it's not perfect.
We know we've done things wrong. We know actually that we've got sins in our past, but there's also a lot of good that our country has done. Patriotism isn't just knee-jerk support of a politician or an administration.
Sometimes patriotism demands that we oppose policies or politicians because we care and love about our country. I also think patriotism is an appreciation of our ideals, right? The American ideals, I think, are good. That all men are created equal. Have we fully lived up to them?
No, we have not. But we've made a lot of progress. I think we can acknowledge that.
So I think that's kind of bound up in what patriotism is. And really, I think the healthiest patriotism starts locally, you know, in our towns, in our communities, in our cities, and works outward toward the nation. There are so many people who call themselves Christians or evangelical Christians who are speaking on our behalf in the public square. And just maybe speaking for me alone, I don't appreciate their tone and the things they have to say.
So, does that give us another reason then to get true believers to speak out in a way that really reflects the nature of the Bible and the God that we trust and love? I agree with you. I think God cares not just about what we say and that we're on the right side of issues, but how we say it and that we speak with grace and compassion. And 1 Peter 3, 15 through 17 says, have an answer for every person for the hope that lies within you, but do it with gentleness and kindness. Obviously, we're making substantive arguments.
It's good to have robust debates and to really be firm and courageous about the things we stand up for. But remember that even in the public square, we are Christians. And one of the things that I say in the book that might run a little counter to what a lot of people hear is, I actually think having more Bible-believing, church-attending Christians in politics is better for our politics and better for our country. Because people are going to church every week, are hearing about the transcendent. They're hearing about Christ.
They're hearing about a kingdom that is not of this world. It sort of tempers our passions when we go into that political space. It gives us a sense of realism, a sense of hope that we cannot usher in the kingdom of God. We cannot make this utopia. But we can do some good until Christ returns.
So I actually think having more Bible-believing Christians who are engaging in the spiritual disciplines in the political process is actually better for our politics. Because if we're not engaged in that way, what fills that void is often worse, right? There may be people who align with some of our policy positions, but don't share our faith. And so I think Christians in the process is a healthy thing. And of course, it depends on calling.
Not every Christian is called to do the same kind of work in the public square.
Some are called to run for office or for school board, but others are called to do this kind of work in a quieter way, whether it's running a business or a nonprofit or whatever. But I do think all of us are called to be engaged to try to shape the communities that the next generation will live in, to advocate policies that help our neighbors flourishing, to make sure that the country that our children are given and our grandchildren are given is better for them than the one that we inherited. Are there some practical ways that Christians can remind themselves of how good we have it? I mean, do we need to be reading history, for example?
Sometimes I think people don't know the history, or at least most recent history. Is that a tool that can help us? Absolutely. You just hit on one of my, really, one of my hobby horses. I think Americans should read history.
Now, I'm a history nut, and my idea of leisure time is reading a presidential biography or visiting a historical site. Not everyone's wired that way, but I do think all Americans should have a better grasp of history. There's a couple of things history does, I think. Number one, it pulls us out of the present and out of the sort of the fury of the present where everything seems like the worst or best it's ever been and gives us a sense of perspective. A lot of the debates we're having, we've had before.
A lot of the issues we're encountering, we've encountered before. And I don't want to be naive or pollyannish, but our country has gotten through far worse moments and far tougher debates. And so it gives us a sense of perspective. I think secondly, it gives us a sense of God's sort of superintending of history, that God is guiding history to himself. And third, I think, you know, start.
Studying history gives us a sense of how we can engage the present and what kind of policies have worked and not worked. And how, you know, I think American history is so unique and in some ways miraculous and fragile of how, you know, we've made it 250 years in this grand experiment in human liberty.
So I really think reading history is important. It gives you a sense of pride and patriotism. I think the second way that we can foster love and gratitude for our country sometimes is engaging with people who are recent immigrants. At Southwestern, we have a lot of students who are either immigrants or children of immigrants. And it's interesting on election day last year, I just sat and talked with them and said, what are you guys thinking?
And every single one of them loved the country. And they said that their parents, who are immigrants, love this country. You know, they're playing Lee Greenwood all the time because they see the contrast between the totalitarian governments that they escaped and the unique system that we have here.
Sometimes those of us who've been here our whole lives, who were born here, don't really appreciate it. This is as well. When this is all you have, all you see is the flaws. All you see is the cracks and the injustices, which are real, and you don't see the good things that we have. You know, Americans have more agency and more power and more ability to shape their government than really any people in human history.
And more than most people around the world, right? We think we have it bad, but I guarantee you, the people who are fighting like crazy to get into this country don't think that. Talk a little bit about the church then. What are some ways that pastors and churches can help their churches think rightly about this patriotism in a balanced way? Yeah, I think that's a great question.
And, you know, I defer to pastors because they know their congregations well and their context. And I think pastors are under a lot of pressure, but doing a great job. All the pastors that I meet with, you know, really think through this thoughtfully. I mean, one of the things I tell advice I give is: number one, the Bible and the gospel is going to be political. There's no way to avoid being.
political. The gospel itself is political. In the first century, when the early Christians were proclaiming that Christ is Lord and not Caesar, that's a political statement.
So there's no way to avoid politics. There's a Christian worldview that is inevitably at conflict with the ideas and ideologies of the age.
So you can't avoid politics. I do think pastors should be thoughtful though. And, you know, their people are coming on Sundays to hear a word from the Lord. And pastors should not try to be pundits in the pulpit. People get that Monday through Friday, they need to hear something different from God on Sundays.
So we don't want to turn our pulpits into punditry necessarily. Having said that, I do think it is incumbent on the church to equip people on how to live out our citizenship, how to think about key issues, you know, particularly issues that come straight from the text, right? Things like the sanctity of life and marriage and those kinds of things. And also how to conduct ourselves as believers in the public square and what that looks like. I think it'd be good if pastors in the next year taught from some of the great important texts in scripture that talk about the role of the church and the role of the church.
The state and how Christians should view the state. Texts like Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2 and the text in 1 Peter to just try to equip people who may not have been equipped on what the Bible says about these things. But what really we need pastors to do is continue to be faithful, to preach the word, to preach the gospel. That is the most important thing. I think the local church is the locus of God's plan in this world.
And by preaching the gospel and preaching the word that has power, it has the power to change people's hearts. And ultimately, that's going to be what renews the country, right? I think policies are important. Politics is very important. Having the right leaders is vitally important.
But at the end of the day, what America needs is a sense of revival. It needs people turning to Christ in faith, changing human hearts. That will renew the country. We've seen in our country those times of awakening that have really had a positive impact. And so I think that's ultimately what the church has to be.
The church has to be the one place where people can hear the truth. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth. We're just about out of time. Time. Dan Darling, I hope our listeners will go and find your book, In Defense of Christian Patriotism.
And of course, they can follow your good work at dandarling.com and see a lot of your articles and the other research and things that you've done there. But thank you so much for joining us today. Dan Darling, Director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement, thanks for joining us on Family Policy Matters. Thank you, Tracy. I really appreciate it.
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Thanks and may God bless you and your family.
