Holding App Stores Accountable (with Melissa McKay)

Welcome to Family Policy Matters, a weekly podcast and radio show produced by the North Carolina Family Policy Council. Hi, I'm John Rust and president of NC Family, and each week on Family Policy Matters, we welcome experts and policy leaders to discuss topics that impact faith and family here in North Carolina. Our prayer is that this program will help encourage and equip you to be a voice of persuasion for family values in your community, state, and nation. And now here's the host of Family Policy Matters, Tracy DeVett-Griggs. Thanks for joining us this week for Family Policy Matters.

Those handy little apps we love to download on our smartphones may actually be dangerous in the hands of our kids and grandkids. Melissa McKay, the president and chair of the board for the Digital Childhood Institute, has been working to hold app developers and app stores accountable. She's a mother of five who got angry when she saw how inadequate protections were for children. And she made up her mind to push for changes.

Well, years later, she can stake some claim to getting a bill called the App Store Accountability Act put into place in Utah with other states now following suit. And she has not cowered from taking on the big boys either, having sent 50-page formal complaints to Apple and Google. Melissa McKay, thanks for being with us today on family policy matters.

Okay, so first of all, just walk us through this journey. What happened that you went from being a mom to stepping into this legislative advocacy? It's a funny story. I never in my life thought I'd be a legislative activist. I had five kids, extremely busy.

And about nine years ago, my oldest son at the time he was in elementary school and all of the schools were starting to issue devices, iPads, and you know, Kindles. I picked him up one day and I could just tell something was wrong. And I was like, Jacob, like, what's wrong? What happened today? And he just started crying.

And he's like, I saw pornography on my school-issued device today. I was looking for, you know, it's a geology term, and I spelled it wrong. And I was like, hey, thank you for telling me. I dropped him off at home. I marched back into the principal's office and I was like, what the heck?

You know, like, my kid's in like fifth grade, and this is totally unacceptable. And I was so horrified by the fact that the schools didn't have policies. There were no controls.

So that year, I started on my first piece of legislation, which was just education about tech and porn and sexting in schools. And I've just been drawn into it every year, done another project.

So good for you. Here at North Carolina Family Policy Council, we love that. We love to come alongside people. People who see something in their communities and decide to get involved. And so we love your story.

So let's talk about this. You have this organization called the Digital Childhood Institute. What is that? How does it work? And what are your goals?

Sure.

So I started the Digital Childhood Institute eight years into my journey. Before that, I was just helping everybody else's organizations, and I just saw a real need to kind of bring all of the masterminds together because. What happens is, once you get into policy, you realize that you're working with the same 20 to 30 people on almost every piece of legislation.

So I started to kind of organize that brain power so that we could come up with the best legislation possible.

So we do FTC complaints, we do research, we do policy advice, and Just trying to educate everyone on what will actually fix the problem and what is kind of not worth their time.

So, this organization then, is it just a conglomeration then of a lot of people that you found were working on these issues? Yep, the leaders are kind of the leaders of other organizations that also are very busy in their own things, but the whole idea was just to bring a bunch of people together who are already working in the space. What a great idea.

Well, congratulations for that. Instead of reinventing the whole wheel, just let's formalize what we already see as working.

So, good for you.

Well, talk a little bit more. You gave us the story about your son, but what are some other ways that if we do not have the safety measures that need to be on there for children, that we can have some real problems with kids' safety online? When I grew up, there were very few ways for predators or scammers to get to children, right? I mean, almost no ways. You'd almost have to be dropped off at a friend's house and have a creepy uncle there.

But the problem with the way that smartphones work right now is predators. Predators, like the worst people in the world, have very easy access to children through all sorts of apps. I mean, apps that you think would be completely benign, sometimes school apps. There are all of these ways for these bad actors to get to children, which is kind of where I come from, that I just want to stop this kind of free-flowing communication between the bad people and kids. Let kids alone, let them grow up, let their brains develop.

So, that's kind of the mission behind everything that I'm doing.

Okay, so recently you were able to bring about some pretty significant change to Google's parental control settings.

So, talk about how you did that and why is that important? You know, this is a really interesting story because, you know, I have had five kids, four of them have aged out of Google. And I've never, until I wrote these FTC complaints, the notifications that Google sends to parents and kids about what they're doing, they word them in such a way that they are somewhat deceptive.

So the parent's not going to understand that the kid can remove parental controls. And the kid, if they click on the hyperlink in their email, that's when it walks them through very detailed instructions on exactly how they remove parental controls without their parents' consent. It even had language about like empowering, like, hey, you're 13 now, you're empowered to get rid of your parents. Like, it was very corporate, I mean, just gross, the way that they're setting it up to communicate directly with children.

So my son just barely turned 13 and I was notified that he got this email.

So I look at the email and I was like, oh my gosh, like, I did not realize, even through writing my FTC complaints, I did not realize that Google was narcissistic enough to email children directly. I mean, that takes an incredible amount of corporate arrogance. to email a child and try to get the child to go around their parent.

So I read that email and I was just shaking. Like I was sweating, I was upset. Like, how could they come into my house? and try to come, you know, to my own son, my youngest son.

So I wasn't really even thinking about it. I took a screenshot of the email and I put it up on LinkedIn. And at the time, I think I had just barely reached 500 followers or was just under that.

So I went to bed. I think I had like 3,000 views on the post. And when I woke up, there was 100,000. And then the next day, there was 200,000. And then it went to Twitter and it had a million and a half views.

And then it went to Instagram and got another million views.

So this post just blew up. I would guess at the end of the day, it had about 4 million views. And news outlets picked it up all over the world. Right.

So what was the outcome of that then?

So they've reversed policy.

Well, I'm glad to hear it. Yeah.

So, I mean, when you are a company that is getting repeated press releases asking why you're emailing children, it's very hard to come up with an explanation, right? That's just kind of universally unacceptable.

So they just, within three days, they put out a statement saying they were reversing policy. And within 12 days, they had like scrubbed their website and changed the whole policy.

Okay. Wow.

Well, thank you for that. That is kind of sickening to hear that that happened. And I just want to remind everybody, you were a mom, you know, of five kids. You did this.

So, and I'm sure you had a lot of people that were helping you and have helped you along the way, but I think that's an important footnote here. You got mad and you did something about it. And thank you so much.

Okay, so let's talk about this other issue too. You filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission about Google and Apple's accountability for what you call unfair Play Store and App Store practices.

So how does this Encompass the kind of concerns that you already have? Really early on, like right after my son got exposed in school and I started diving into this.

So, this was back in 2019, I realized that the problem, you have to go all the way up to the apps for the device to actually fix the problem. Otherwise, it's just whack-a-mole forever, right? You're fixing chatbots or social media or chat roulette.

So, I kind of became this research junkie where I was just hoovering up everything there was about Apple and Google because I knew that eventually I would have to fix them in order to fix the online safety problem.

So, we did a congressional hearing back in 2019 with Senator Mike Lee, that's my senator, and we talked about app store age ratings, how they're inaccurate. We talked about device settings, how they default to adult settings, even when the device knows it's a child, and could not get Apple and Google to do anything for like six or seven years, even though we did letters and we did resolutions and we did national movements.

So finally, I was like, well, I'm going to write a piece of legislation, the App Store Accountability Act, and I'm going to put all of the research that I've done over the last, you know, six or seven years in a complaint to the Federal Trade Commission because I want them to understand all of the reasons we wrote this legislation and all of the problems that there are with the Apple and Google app stores and the devices. And it was like, it was such a labor of love, Tracy. Like I locked myself in my master closet that has a little desk in it. And for like two weeks, I just, everything poured out of my brain, everything that I knew about these companies, the bad things they were doing, how they contract with children, how they misrate their apps. And I mean, even when Apple executives, their own kids were getting sex ordered on Instagram, they didn't pull the app from the app store or change the age rating, which at the time was 12 plus, now it's 13.

And I was just like, this is like corporate malfeasance, it's corporate negligence. And I need to alert the highest authority that I possibly can about these business practices, which was the Federal Trade Commission.

So, yeah, they're kind of a dense read. They're each 50 plus pages. But if you have the time to skim through it, you'll realize what is happening to our children and why they are getting so exploited. It's because businesses have allowed to break laws. Tech companies are breaking laws that no other company is allowed to break or is breaking.

Wow.

And I'm assuming we can see these statements on your website? Yes. Digitalchildhoodinstitute.org.

Okay. Let's talk about something I think parents are often concerned about. And that is what happens to the digital images of their kids. You know, I've got some friends. I love to see all their pictures of their kids.

You know, but I do wonder sometimes, you know, because I see other people that are like, don't dare put anything on about my kids or they blur out the faces of their children. How worried should we be about those kinds of things? I never post my kids online. I think that children can't give consent to having their images online. And you never know, especially in the era of deepfakes, what is going to happen to those images, right?

And so I feel like if you're the kind of parent who has a very tight, locked down social media account where strangers can't see it, it's only your closest friends. It's probably fine. I would never post children on a public account. I just don't think it's safe. Let's go back to your accountability act that you are working on.

And you said it's kind of multiplying and going into other states. You would like that to be on the federal level as well, I am assuming. We would like it at a federal level, but honestly, the Congress has not passed comprehensive child safety legislation in 25 years.

So we kind of all understand that the goal is federal, but that they can't really do. I mean, hopefully they will now that it's become such an enormous problem. But so we just pass stuff in states.

So we, you know, get our. All the child advocates I've worked together with for 10 years, we get Christian groups, we get mom groups, and we all try to attack this and get it passed in as many states as possible. And what does that do? Can individual states make a difference in this, or does it have to come from the federal level, ultimately? No, I mean, the crazy thing is it's kind of a hack that advocates have figured out.

Once you get a piece of legislation passed in one state, a lot of times the tech companies will start moving on their own.

So, for example, last year, we passed the Children's Device Protection Act, or I guess two years ago, in Utah, which requires the porn filter to be turned on by default for anyone under 18.

So, once we got it passed in Utah and Alabama, Apple made it nationwide.

So, they just like did it themselves. And when our App Store Accountability Act passed in Utah, Apple and Google started creating all of these features to get ready for it because they knew it was coming.

So they updated like their app age ratings to be more granular and more accurate. They created the age verification. Just two days ago, they put out a press release saying that they can verify your age in 30 seconds with data they already have collected.

So they got the age verification piece ready. They implemented a new API, which can communicate the age from the device to an app anonymously.

So even getting something passed in a few states makes such a difference. Like you can change the entire tech company all over the world by getting legislation passed in a few states. I've often said that on this show. People think of federal laws as kind of seeping down, but so many of things happen like this, where they start in states, a lot of states start to show interest in it, and it actually bubbles up.

So good for you. All right.

Well, Melissa, let's go back and unpack some of the things that we talked about because we kind of went quickly over those. First of all, this group that you've assembled of thought leaders and others that are just making a difference, how did you find them and were they receptive to coming all together and working together? If you start in child advocacy, like you just get connected to these people everywhere. Everyone shows up at the same events. Everybody's showing up at the same conferences.

So if you're in it for five years, like the first year, you maybe meet five people, by the second year, you know ton of them. Five years in, you basically know all 100 of the movers and shakers.

So it's really easy to get involved. Like anytime that you start to get politically actively involved, you'll get connected with one group. And then it's just like this family.

So they will come find you. Right.

And then how did you? do funding? I mean, did you have to set up a board? What all happened with that and in what order? I'm very fortunate in that my father is a philanthropist.

So he's been kind of our primary donor and funder on this. For most people, you kind of have to go to community organizations and find other people who are willing to donate, which isn't hard. If you're doing good work, there are a lot of people who want to help you protect kids. Obviously, when you first got started, you didn't know a whole lot, but how did you begin to learn and piece together all of these different terms and just how to even contact the Federal Trade Commission, let's say? It feels like you're drinking from a fire hose for like the first three years.

You're just, you're like, oh, legislation, what is a committee? Like what, what there's a Senate and a House. Like, I mean, you just basically feel stupid for the first little bit. But if you're motivated and you're dedicated, like it, it all comes together really quickly. And I think because advocates are so motivated by good and love that there's so many people who are willing to help you.

I mean, the first time I testified, it was. It was, I watched the video and I was like, I said um like every three seconds. I was so nervous. But people don't care, like they just love that you're showing up.

So if you just consistently show up over and over again, people will teach you exactly what you need to know.

So what about your kids?

So I can hear people saying, well, I wish I could do that, but I have young kids and I don't want to ignore them. I'm assuming that your kids probably thought this was pretty cool. I think they have a love-hate relationship with my advocacy. In the beginning, it took far less time. Because legislative session is only for three months of the year.

And if you're only doing one bill, it's basically only four meetings, right? You have committee, house floor, or senate floor, and then committee and then the opposite.

So moms and dads, busy moms and dads can do this with very little time commitment. Research can be done. My research was almost exclusively done between 10 p.m. and midnight in the early years after my kids were in bed.

So if you had the desire, like you could fit this into any schedule for any person from someone who has a lot of time to someone who has very little time. Right.

And I'm assuming we don't need a big fancy office. Oh, no. I laugh because my office is my master closet. I stuck a desk in it because it's an ugly desk because it has to be one of those that moves up and down.

So, I don't get back pain.

So, I do 80% of my work from my master closet. We had a guest a couple weeks ago who talked about removing these electronic devices from the classroom completely. He thinks they're actually making it more difficult for kids to learn. Do you go that far, or do you think we just need to make them better? One of the bills, I'm running six bills this year.

Two of them are ed tech bills.

So the Safe Act and the Balance Act in Utah that I'm helping to spearhead here regulate EdTech in classes.

So I'm of the mindset that the research has shown that EdTech is actually harmful to kids, that test scores are dropping. And I don't know if you've read Jared Cooney Horbath's book, The Digital Delusion. Have you read that? Yes, actually, that's who I was talking about that we just interviewed.

So yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So he flew out to Utah. He was at our press conference for the Safe and the Balance Act. And he helped us draft it, looked over it. He has endorsed it, and Jonathan Haidt has also endorsed these bills. But we're basically saying kids should not be the guinea pigs.

The tech that comes to kids should already have been proven safe, legal, and effective before it ever reaches their desk. And if it can't be proven to be those three things, it shouldn't be put in front of children.

So that's the SAFE Act. The Balance Act more says we need to be balancing out screen time with paper and pencil time, because obviously the research from Jared is that kids learn far worse on laptops, that just the act of writing and being bored and connecting with your teacher is really where the education happens.

So that's the purpose of the Balance Act is to try to put less time on devices and more time in person. Let's talk a little bit about these writing of bills. I mean, I'm just thinking, how on earth would you get started on something like that? Or this huge long letter that you wrote to Google or Apple? How does that happen?

Where does that content come from? Legislation is a very, it's one of the most difficult learned arts, I would say, in advocacy, right? You have to understand how to write a definition, how to make it constitutional.

So the Apps for Accountability Act and the Children's Device Protection Act both started as like PowerPoints.

So just trying to say, this is what we're trying to accomplish. And then it moved into policy papers. And then it ended up as I had to hire an attorney to actually draft the legislation. And then Utah cleaned it for almost a year.

So that is one of the most challenging pieces. If you're a new advocate, I would recommend that you pass that off to somebody who is a more experienced advocate. You know, get it to at least like the PowerPoint stage. The FTC complaints, that's just my bread and butter. Like, I am a research nut.

I am like a writer. Doing those projects was just a literal joy for me.

So, what I did is, I wrote the initial draft of it, and then I crowdshared it with all of these friends that are part of this group and basically said, you know, hey, you're my lawyer friend. Can you tweak this? Hey, you're my tech junkie friend. You know, read over this, make sure it was okay.

So, the FTC complaints were like a crowdsharing labor of love from everybody in advocacy.

So, I got a lot of help with those. One last question before we have to run. Talk a little bit about Advice for people who are out there and they see something that they are concerned about. They want to start taking steps, but they maybe are a little intimidated by you and all that you have accomplished. What kind of advice do you have for them?

I love this question, Tracy. This is my favorite question. Like I said, I'm a stay-at-home mom. I graduated in nursing and then I retired for 25 years. If I can do it, anybody can do it.

Like, I feel like that you just get politically involved. The really unique thing about parents and families is that legislators want to talk to you more than they want to talk to lobbyists. Parents bring such a personal visceral reaction to this stuff and they know that you're not just kind of a bought and paid for shill, that it's stuff that you're experiencing. They want to pass legislation to help you.

So my advice to anybody who sees something that concerns them is, you know, educate yourself. You can go online and figure out in about three minutes who your legislator is and then just set an appointment, you know, email them, get on their calendar. Like they are public servants. That is what they are there for. And you will be surprised how easy it is to actually make a difference.

Okay, sounds great.

So tell us again your website. Yeah, digitalchildhoodinstitute.org. All right.

Well, Melissa McKay with Digital Childhood Institute. Thank you so much for your great work and for being with us today on family policy matters. Thank you for listening to Family Policy Matters. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show and leave us a review. To learn more about NC Family and the work we do to promote and preserve faith and family in North Carolina, visit our website at ncfamily.org.

That's ncfamily.org. And check us out on social media at NC Family Policy. Thanks and may God bless you and your family.