Years ago, people used to use the expression, a woman's place. Elise Fitzpatrick says the Bible says a woman's place is a place of value and honor and dignity. You want to know what godly women are like? Then take a look at Miriam, who in some ways rescued her brother Moses. Take a look at Sarah. Take a look at Hannah. Take a look at Lydia.
Take a look at Phoebe. These are women that served God. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.
I'm Bob Lapine. You'll find us online at FamilyLifeToday.com. As parents, are we raising our sons and daughters to understand what the Bible says about the dignity and value of women? We're going to talk more about that today with Elise Fitzpatrick and Eric Shoemaker. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.
Thanks for joining us. You know, this is such a confusing culture for moms and dads trying to raise the next generation. First of all, we've got massive gender confusion in our culture today. So, if you're thinking as a mom or as a dad, I want to raise my daughter to be a godly woman, the next thing is, what does that even mean? Because the culture will tell you all kinds of, why woman?
Why just godly person, right? I have empathy for the parents who are in the midst of this. This is a challenge today. It sure is, because we live in a culture that's confused, and they're growing up in that. And so, I think our voices as parents are vital in the upraising, especially of our daughters. Yeah, and I know that I've actually said to my sons, boy, I'm glad I'm not a parent now. I mean, in a tongue-in-cheek way, but I am a grandparent, but it is a different day. And again, when we were raising sons and daughters, and we just really raised sons, we were even then saying we were confused. What's a real man?
What's a real woman? And yet today, it's a whole other ballgame. We're talking this week about the dignity and value of women, which at times in the Christian culture has been minimized, both in churches and in homes, and that's what is addressed in the book that Elise Fitzpatrick and Eric Schumacher have written, called Worthy, celebrating the value of women. Eric and Elise, welcome back. Thanks, it's good to be here. Thanks, Bob. I'm glad they're just going to clear up all the confusion. Today is your day. Listeners are going to get everything they need today from you two.
Everything. Eric is a pastor from Iowa. Elise is a grandmother who lives in California. She's an author and a speaker, has been with us regularly. The two of you collaborated on this book out of a passion to say to us all it's time for us to think more biblically about women, because we've let the culture invade our thinking as Christians on this subject.
Yeah, I think what you, you know, what you opened with was so right, we live in confusing times, and we live in a culture that is often pushing one way to where there's absolutely no distinctions between men and women, and sometimes particularly in conservative churches, we are in a culture that is maybe pushing the opposite direction that we overemphasize the distinctions sometimes in ways that maybe the Bible doesn't say exist. Let me give you an example of that, and I've shared this before, but this just jumped out at me and was one of those aha moments in my life. My son had gone to a youth retreat. He came home from the youth retreat and he said, guess what the speaker said?
And I said, well, tell me what he said. He said, so he was talking about guys and girls, and he says, you know, guys and girls are different. I mean, guys like sports and girls like to read. Okay, so my son, who was in the eighth grade at that point, wasn't much into sports and loved to read.
And he's going, so what do I do with that, Dad? In fact, he coined a term, he's a clever kid, he said, I call these genderalities. Genderalities, right? Isn't that right? But he says, the Bible does make distinctions between men and women, but we can get into this idea, this cultural-shaped idea where we say women are like this and men are like that, and the Bible says so, and the Bible never says anything like that. That's absolutely right.
The Bible doesn't say things like that. And I remember being in college where we went on a, it was with Campus Crusade, our local chapter, and we went on a, we had a men's and women's retreat in the same weekend, and then came back together for a banquet or something in the evening. And so the men got to go rappelling and rock climbing, and the women stenciled flower pots.
And as a by-cam. Are you serious? I'm serious. This is what they did.
This is what they did. There's women in our studio right now that are just, they're ready to hit something. That's how the women were when they found out what we did.
And so the next year we all went rock climbing together. And even, you know, we've been making the jokes about pastors don't use all sports illustrations in your sermon, but there are some women who love sports, and they thrive on those illustrations, and there are men who don't know anything about sports. And those illustrations go right over their head. And so thinking carefully about what does the Bible actually say about what men should be like and women should be like, and separating that from our cultural distinctions that might be extra biblical can be a difficult task. It is difficult, and I've talked for years with people and said, okay, if we're going to define femininity biblically and masculinity biblically, it gets really tricky.
It does. I have conversations with my kids, so I say, so guys should be courageous and strong. And my daughters will say, so women aren't supposed to be courageous and strong?
A mom's not supposed to be a courageous, strong mother? And I go, well, okay, that's a good point. So we acknowledge there are distinctions, and then as soon as we start to put words to it, we start to stutter and get confused about that. So Elise, define femininity for me. Will you, can you explain to me? So I can.
Why, thank you, Bob. When we think about the value and dignity of a woman as unique from men, what are those biblical uniquenesses? Well, let's start off, first of all, by saying that the word femininity doesn't even occur in the Bible.
Masculinity also does not appear in the Bible. However we want to load those words, we have to always remember that they are going to be shaped by our context in post-industrial revolution America. So here what it would look like, let's say, is the woman stays home with the kids, which actually I think is a wonderful thing if a mom can stay home with little kids.
I think that's a glorious and good thing to do and something that I try to do with my kids, so I affirm that. However, if I'm in the Sudan or I'm in China, that post-industrial revolution America definition of femininity, what it means to be a godly woman, doesn't fly there. And so what we have to do is we have to step back and say, okay, so what does the Bible say about me as a woman? Should I be courageous? Should I stand for right values?
Should I do these things in boldness? Well, yes, of course I should. And all you have to do is look at the women in the Bible. You want to know what godly women are like? Then take a look at Miriam, who in some ways rescued her brother Moses, take a look at Sarah, take a look at Hannah, take a look at Lydia, take a look at Phoebe. These are women that served God. And so what's primary about me is not my gender.
What's primary about me is that God has called me into the Great Commission and He has given me His Spirit. The amazing thing is that at the birth of the church, the Holy Spirit was poured out on who? Sons and daughters. And sons and daughters will prophesy.
And sons and daughters will be given speech ministry. And at the resurrection, who is it that's there? I mean Mary Magdalene of all people.
You know, I wouldn't have picked her. But Jesus did and she's the first one commissioned to tell of the resurrection. So what does it mean then to be a woman? And I'm pushing back against that word feminine. To be a woman who has been saved by grace.
What it means is that I am commissioned with the Great Commission to stand and speak as appropriate into my culture about what it means to be valued as someone God has created in His image to speak truth and to model that. And that sounds very similar to what you would tell a son. Exactly.
So how is it different or is it? The one thing that I would not do with women, with little girls, is tell them that their value rests upon how they look. Their appearance. Their appearance.
If we want to know how it is that women a lot of times end up in eating disorders and different things like that, it starts there. So for men to value, for dads to value their little girls. And instead of saying something like, you look so cute today, I love your little dress. That to say, honey, I noticed that you were sharing your toys today and I love that character in you. We've had your daughter and your son on Family Life today.
Should I apologize? We love them. You are great. And you are a part of our Art of Parenting video series and your daughter Jessica is also a part of the Art of Parenting video series and we're grateful for that. But you were raising Joel and Jessica in the same home. Did you emphasize different things with Joel than you emphasized with Jessica?
I don't think I did. I remember one time when Jessica was in the back of the car and she was crying because she said she thought she was ugly. And I mean, I can remember that I think one of the few times I ever, probably too few times, that I ever really got on her case and I said, do not ever say that to me again.
Your value, who you are, doesn't have anything to do with how you look. So I never want to hear that from you again. See, telling a woman that her value is in God's eyes what He has done for her and how He has given her faith and how she can serve Him, I don't think besides that I did anything different in the way that I trained them. But you have to remember too that my training of them happened before this whole biblical femininity, biblical masculinity, we need to talk about these things with our kids.
I never did any of that. So Jessica played softball and she was a rad softball player and Joel played football and basketball and that was all great. But you know, Joel's a pastor and Jessica's on staff at her church and I don't think that those things have anything to do with who they are as human beings.
Eric, you've got four boys and a girl. Are you and your wife trying to do anything differently to emphasize that this is how a girl should be and this is how boys should be? I can't think in most of our parenting that there's a lot of difference except for maybe speaking about one day if you get married, you know, if that's what the Lord calls you to, being a mom, being a dad, being a husband, being a wife. You know, as I think about just what Elise was saying about femininity and masculinity and how do we think about that biblically, I think about Paul writing to the Thessalonians and saying, you know how we were with you. We were tender like nursing mothers. And so, a pastor, one of the virtues he should cultivate is the tenderness of a nursing mother.
And you have Jesus saying, how often I would have gathered you like a hen gathers her chicks. And so, Paul and Jesus are willing to say, as they illustrate, their manliness in caring for people using distinctly female roles. And I think that's interesting, and so I want to ask the question, are there virtues that a male should be cultivating that a woman should not? Or that a woman should be cultivating that a man should not?
And I can't really think of any that this is only for men and this is only for women. But Titus 2, when it differentiates, does have some differentiation about what older women should teach younger women, older men should teach younger men. We ought not dismiss that as being gender inclusive and say, well, they're just, no, there's purpose in those gender differentiations. And I notice that when those gender differentiations come up, it's often talking about, even there Titus, about how they are in the home. And I think that where we see these roles for men and women differentiated, it's often in a covenant context where you have a husband and a wife in a home, or you have pastors and members in a local church. And so, where I want to think carefully about is, outside of those contexts, how different should men and women look? So, I totally affirm that. Where I get cautious is where, like you said, teaching your children, men should be courageous and then asking, well, should women be courageous?
Right. Let me ask you this, because my son called me not long after he'd gotten married and he said, so, what do I do with this verse in 1 Peter 3 that says that women are weaker vessels? What does that mean? Well, there's a few different interpretations. One of those is, it could be just recognizing that men have more natural body strength. There's a percentage more muscle that men are going to have than women, and so they're naturally physically weaker.
It could also be culturally, in that cultural context where women had fewer rights and advantages that you should be gentle with them and not take advantage of what you have. Yeah, and I think what you point out there is important for us to recognize. We can observe that men and women are different, not just in anatomy, but men have testosterone, women have estrogen, by God's design. We ought to not draw hard conclusions from that, but we ought to draw some soft conclusions from that about strength and about nurturing, right? Am I thinking wrongly there?
No. Obviously, women give birth and men do not, but when you think about the activity of giving birth, which in the ancient Near East was the highest source of death and terror for women. We think about giving birth now, and it's a little scary, but it's not like it was then.
The mortality rate among women in the ancient Near East was very, very high, particularly because a lot of them were married when they were 13 and 14 years old. And so, is a woman then, is she courageous? Is she even courageous enough to give birth?
It's almost like she's going to war and she might die, but she's going to protect the life of a baby. So, how did we get here? In terms of, I'd love to hear your perspective, and you do write about it a little bit, but how did we get to a place in modern day, and it's been a long time, where we see men are strong, women are soft. And I'm not talking physically, I'm talking demeanor, everything. Men step up and be courageous.
Women, that's not feminine, that's not female. And yet, it's so far from the truth, but there's so many that believe that, and we say that. How did we get here? Well, I think it's a reaction, which, you know, we ought to be very, very careful when we build theologies around reactions to the culture.
Okay? So, it's a reaction to the culture, because again, when I first got saved, 1971, nobody was talking about gender. But in reaction to the culture, and particularly to third wave feminism, in reaction to that, entire theologies have been developed, and a lot of them are just responding to the culture, rather than looking at what Scripture has to say. What we're saying is, okay, what the culture is saying about gender out there, that's all wrong, so we're going to say something that we believe is different. So, I mean, I think that that's how we got there, but then also, you have to remember, too, that from the very beginning, the enemy has hated women. You know, there will be enmity between your seat and her seat, so the woman has been hated from the beginning, and in some ways, it's just easy to slide into that. I've made the observation that men tend toward passivity. I've also made the observation that, and again, I'm not trying to be exclusive here, because women can be passive, but I just observe with men, it seems more endemic than it is with women. Women tend to lean toward control, to want to feel safe and feel like, if I'm not in control of my circumstances, I'm unsafe, and so I'm applying some of this back to Genesis 3.
Your desire will be for your husband. Do you see that as a desire to want to be in control of her environment or circumstances? Actually, in the book, we argue, I argue that it's not that. Because of the way the poetry works there, what I see going on in the curses or the results of the fall is the Lord affirms that they will have what is actually a natural and a good desire. Adam will, you know, eat the grain of the field, but there's going to be resistance, so he's going to eat by the sweat of his brow.
And I actually think, this is my interpretation, I know there's different interpretations, but that the woman's desire is a romantic desire, that she'll still love and desire her husband, but that's going to be met with resistance in terms of him having a harsh rule. And I think we see that borne out as Genesis 4 unfolds, where Genesis 4 is remarkable because it begins, Eve has the first recorded words of faith in Scripture. The Lord, with his help, I got this son. And we see her faith, and you know, I mentioned earlier that the first song in Scripture is Adam celebrating the value of his wife. This is flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone.
Bone of my bone, yeah. And you go on in Genesis 4, and the second song sung is by Lamech, who is the descendant of Cain, and in poetic form, he calls his wives to him. Notice that, now he has two wives.
He's collecting these women. He brings them together, and you might remember that scene where he brags about, you know, he says, this is what happened to Cain, sevenfold vengeance. He says, I've killed a young man for striking me.
My vengeance will be, you know, sevenfold. And what's interesting is, he's just called his wives to him to say, I have violently reacted, lethally reacted to someone who hurt me, and I want you, my wives, to know this. What's going on there? There's a man who's saying, you better not displease me, or it could cost you your life. And so, he is abusing this authority to gain control of his situation. And you know, to get back to your question of what does it mean, what do you teach your sons about what it means to grow up to be a man? I think what I would try to emphasize with my boys is being a man means taking the initiative to sacrifice, to achieve unity with this woman. And if there's anything that should shape our lives, then it should be a willingness to sacrifice for the good of other people. And again, women are called to sacrifice as well. Absolutely. But where the Bible speaks specific gendered language, when it says husbands do this, wives do this, we ought to note there's something different going on there. There is. When it says older men teach this to younger men, there's something gender different there, and we ought not just try to dismiss that and say, well, that's for everybody, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Eric, are you teaching your sons to lead their families if, in fact, God would call them to be married? I try to model that.
I would say I model that very imperfectly. But just showing my sons what it means to initiate, showing my sons what it means to lay aside my own preferences, reminding my sons of how they may and may not treat their mother or their sister or each other, and then giving them opportunities to remind them, why not sacrifice your preferences here for the good of somebody else? The thing that always came back to me as a dad was, you bear weight as a man. You are expected to bear a heavier weight. You're bearing it for others, for your kids, for your wife. So, where there's responsibility, you bear that weight. Where there's need, you bear the weight of provision in that.
And it's not that wives don't provide or that they're not responsible, but it's almost like the buck stops here, right? And I get that because in Genesis 3, when God comes to confront the couple for their disobedience, who was the first person that bit the apple? The woman. Who's the person God talks to? Adam.
What's going on here? And I go, now wait, why is Adam bearing the weight for what Eve did? Because by God's design, that's what men in marriage do. It's interesting just to say, what are gender roles?
What do they look like? When you look at Ephesians 5, and you see how Jesus is the one who lays down his life for the church, and then Paul comes along and he says, husbands do the laundry. Okay? You wash your wife with a word so that you present her. And this is laundry language. Without spot or wrinkle or any blemish, you present her. And so, basically, I think what Paul is saying there in the husband's role, it's a role of caring for his wife in some ways in the way that a slave would, and we're talking about slavery in the ancient Near East, a husband in that context would never do the laundry. And for Paul to say, yeah, that's what you do. You care for your wife in the same way that these slaves care for the clothing here.
You're doing that with her. That is, I mean, that's beautiful imagery, words, picture. I was thinking, you know, we were recently with all three of our sons and their wives, grandkids for Ann's mom's funeral. And I didn't think of it until we were just having this discussion, but one of the things I think I'm proud of and I think it's Ann's doing is as I watch my three sons, who I've since they were born talked about manhood and four pillars of manhood and what a man looks like, you know, trying to do what I never had a dad do for me. And yet as I watched them even last weekend, they continually, all three of them, and I need to tell them this, but I noticed they uplifted their women. Their wives, I can tell, feel worthy.
I can see it. And I'm like, I'm so proud of my sons. They want their voice. They defer to them.
They highlight them. I'm guessing it's because of Ann because I didn't model that like she did, but it's a beautiful thing to watch a Christian man highlight his wife as equal and want her and invite her voice because she's worthy. How would marriages and families and the church and the culture change if husbands said, I'm going to make it my goal for my wife's worth to be on display in every setting where we are and for her value to be exalted? And I want to just say to the women listeners, you are worthy. Jesus has made us worthy and He sees you. He loves you.
He has a place for you. Your voice does matter. And I think that we as women, I think that we need to lift one another up and remind each other of that.
So often we can compete in a world of just there's so much going on, but if we lock arms as women too and lift each other up, go to the Word together, pray for one another, we're world changers, just as our brothers are. Let me say to our listeners, we love when you do engage with us. So, you know, we talk about getting emails. We love to hear from you. And we love when we're simulating thoughts, and you may disagree with some of the things you've heard this week. You may agree and want to write about those things. You can always do that. We're happy to pass on Eric and Elisa's email addresses so you can go directly to them.
I don't have one anymore. Mine all goes to Eric. Here's what I would hope our listeners would do before they send an email to us, get a copy of the book, Worthy, and read it, prayerfully read it, and then interact with it, because sometimes in a conversation like this, you know, we blow past something. You guys have done a great job with nuanced thought and with clear prose, and I hope a lot of our listeners will read this book, and I'm so grateful you came to be a part of this conversation. Thanks for having us. It's been wonderful.
Thanks, Bob. You can go to familylifetoday.com to order a copy of the book Worthy by Elise Fitzpatrick and Eric Shoemaker, or you can call to order. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Once again, the website. To order a copy of Eric and Elise's book Worthy, go to familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY.
David Robbins, the president of Family Life, is in the studio with us again. You know, while many of us have been dealing with things being canceled, back when we recognized something serious was going on, we also recognized that ministry can't be canceled in the midst of a pandemic. There are still real needs and people who need help and hope. Yeah, if anything, I think God is opening our eyes to all the opportunities around us. I know my family has gotten to know our neighbors better than we ever have in just six short weeks, and at Family Life, that really is our mission. Our mission's not just to give you help for today and hope for tomorrow.
It's about equipping you to be help and hope to those that are around you. And our team's been working really hard during this pandemic to help you be ambassadors for Christ to other homes around you and impact your corner of the world. I was so encouraged to get this email from Vicki recently. She said, my husband and I are coaching a newly married couple using these awesome resources you guys are putting out during COVID-19. It is so powerful to be having honest discussions about the real issues we're all facing during this strange time, but especially for these newlyweds.
Others are expressing interest, so we are praying about a time to host weekly Zoom calls with a newlywed support group. You know, it can look a lot of different ways, and it looks different for each one of us in the ways we are wired, but we believe that there is renewal and awakening happening in our day. There's an invitation to a bigger story and fresh surrender as we walk through this pandemic together. And I think God is reminding us of what He's doing in building His kingdom and bringing revival, bringing renewal, especially as we look up and see the homes and the neighbors around us. And I just want to say we look forward to continuing to provide resources during this unprecedented time to help you minister to those around you. And we are so grateful for those of you who give generously and sacrificially to enable us to play our part in building God's kingdom.
The gospel's not canceled, and the mission, the Great Commission is not canceled, and we hope everybody is taking that to heart. And if you've not gone to our website at familylifetoday.com to find some of these resources that are available to help you reach out to your friends, your neighbors, things you can forward, things you can engage them with, go to familylifetoday.com. The information is available there. And if you're able to help with a donation today, these are challenging times for ministries like ours. If you can help with a donation, we would be so grateful. In fact, we'd love to send you a copy of Barbara Raney's new book, which is called My Heart Ever His? A great book on how to pray more effectively during challenging times.
Ask for your copy of the book when you make an online donation at familylifetoday.com, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate. And thanks for your support of this ministry. We appreciate you. And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together with your local church this weekend. And I hope you can join us back on Monday. Dennis and Barbara Raney are going to be back with us, along with Dave and Ann Wilson, and we're going to talk about what it looks like when a marriage goes vertical. So that'll be fun to have the whole gang here, right? Hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.
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