I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning and says, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to besmirch the name of Jesus.
That's going to be awesome. What a great idea. What a fun task list for me. But I think that oftentimes we just are so concerned with being right instead of loving people in the right way. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.
You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. All right, I have a small confession. Oh, I don't think I'm the only one.
Okay. But I haven't really ever said this out loud. But one of the things I sort of like doing in the last year, 18 months, is going on Facebook and somebody posts something a little controversial. I find myself scrolling through the comments.
You actually have started doing that. They're attacking each other. I mean, it's not pretty usually. I don't like this. I'm not saying I like it. It's like driving by. It sucks you in. Yeah, you're like, I gotta, you know, slow down and see what's happening.
It's terrible. But I'll tell you something. You know, I told you this last year, I was reading one and this woman and this man were going at each other really bad. And then I looked at who the names were. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, they both were on my screen.
The staff at my church 10 years ago, they worked at my church. And I was like, this is so ugly. You know, and I'm thinking, how many other people know that? And they're looking at this is the Christian world attacking one another. But it's also like when you think about election year, when you think about controversy and people's opinions, even in a family, a close family who could have very different views on different topics. Yes.
It is not easy to navigate those conversations. We need help. And we've got help in the studio.
Amberley Neese is with us. Yes. And she's been with us before, but I didn't know until I got your study and I watched it. So this is a video study. Yes, it is.
And you are not only funny, you're powerful because you're diving into this. You know, your subtitle is How to Love Others Despite Our Differences called Common Ground. The book is called Common Ground.
And Amberley, what a perfect time for us to read a book like this, because it feels at times like there's not much in common. Absolutely. When we have beliefs, unbeliefs, political things, there are just so many things to disagree on.
And Jesus prayed that we would all be one. Yes. Right. And yet we are not getting it right. All those Internet trolls, I'm with you. You're right.
It is like a car accident. You can't help yourself. I'm not the only one. No, sir. No, sir.
So if there's a 12 step program for people like us, we're the first two. Have you ever jumped in? No. Me neither. No. And I will tell you, somebody says, Are you just chicken? And I honestly, I don't think it advances the cause for Christ. One iota. I don't either.
Not one cell. We're going to have a conversation. Let's sit across the table, look each other in the eye and talk this out rather than on a Facebook page, you know? Absolutely.
So why this? Common Ground. Yeah. I love it.
A study of sibling rivalries in the Bible. I don't think, has anybody ever done that? You're it. I don't know. I think all authors probably think that they're, you know, I'm the first one that ever had this thought, but there's nothing new under the sun.
But how gracious of God to give us these imperfect, you know, sibling relationships in the Bible so that when we need to navigate those difficult times that we can try to figure out what to do with our brothers and sisters in Christ by looking at their examples. Yeah. Now you're a comedian. I am. I mean, that's not the only thing you do.
Yeah. In fact, you do like everything. I speak, you write. I cannot keep plants alive. I'm just going to say right now, speaking of making some kind of confession, I kill them. I grow children beautifully.
I don't forget to water and feed them, but plants are on their own in my house. But I do quite a few jobs, but not one of those is without conflict. And so when it came time to think through, you know, what might God be trying to teach me in this season, conflict was where it was at. And it actually came, it's so funny that you say that, but actually came from watching the exchanges of believers online. So it's one thing when a non-believer, when a person that is expected, right? You just say, well, you know, they don't know better because they don't know how much God loves them.
Right. And so they're acting out of that. But when it's two believers, people saved by grace who have looked Jesus at one time in their life and said, you are large and in charge of my life. And when those two, when believers, and I can be part of it, but when believers do that, first of all, I feel like, man, that must hurt Jesus's heart when he's literally like, one thing. It's like the parents say, I give you one job. Pick up your room.
He's saying, I give you one job that you'd be one. And they will know you by your love. Exactly.
That is the most effective evangelical tool that we have is our unity. And yet it is oft overlooked. Do you think people just don't care about that or they don't know it? Like, why did they enter into that? Because they think it will change someone's view.
What do you think? So I think we oftentimes confuse our convictions with our need to convict others of their misdeeds. And it's like a righteous kind of anger or justice maybe? I mean, I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning and says, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to besmirch the name of Jesus.
That's going to be awesome. What a great idea. What a fun task list for me. But I think that oftentimes we just are so concerned with being right instead of loving people in the right way. And again, yes, there were times that Jesus turned over the tables.
He was not happy with what was happening, but he still loved people well. So how do we navigate this? You know, how do we unpack these things? Which again, they can be polarizing. When we talk about some of the topics of our world, you bet your red rider there are definitely sides to that. But how we respond to that disunity really shows a lot about our character. And so when I did this dive, it was as much for me as anybody else. When I looked at these siblings and saying, OK, what can I learn from their example?
That was a big deal. How did you decide on sibling rivalry? Because common ground makes sense.
But how did you decide on taking these siblings who didn't necessarily always have common ground? Did that just come to you? I think maybe it's because I'm not that person that can take 27 steps away. You know, I'm not a chess player. Checkers, I will clean your clock in Jesus name.
But chess, not so much. But I think part of it is I have a hard time seeing all of the steps in between. With the siblings in the Bible, it was a really easy checker game for me to figure this out. This is the way that Jesus wants his people to behave or not. And so it was easily translatable for my brain to say as a sister in Christ to the people that are in Christ with me, how am I to respond? And so how gracious of God to give us, I just chose four to dive into, but there are tons in the Bible.
And some of them show Jesus so beautifully and some were a train wreck on this side of glory, like so crazy. But we can learn from both. Yeah. So where do we start? I mean, when you are in a relationship and maybe you're not even in a relationship, but you are having a conversation or it's even harder when it is a sibling or somebody, a family member. Or a child, one of your grown kids. And you realize we are on opposite sides of this issue and it's an important issue. Could be political, could be spiritual, could be family, whatever it is. And you want to have a conversation and you want to love them, but the differences are so strong. You know you're not going to change your viewpoint and say, okay, I agree with your perspective. You're going to absolutely not agree.
It might be against scripture, what they are holding to. How do you have a loving relationship with that sibling, with that neighbor, with that family member, with that coworker? I mean, that's what your video is about. How do you find common ground? So first of all, I can 100% speak to this. I want to know, how did you answer that question yourself, Mr. Pastor Man? This is good.
You're not allowed to do that. We are interviewing you. You wrote this.
I will say my piece, but I think I would love to hear what you have to say first. I mean, it's really hard. First of all, I think you acknowledge it. Like that's real. You know, we've talked to Tim Muehlhoff about, you know, conversations with this and he talks about, I'll never forget, a speed bump. Yes. Oh, I remember this was a great conversation. Yeah.
And so that was helpful to say, pause, just pause for a second, step back, take a breath. And remember, I'm not trying to win an argument. I am winning people. So this relationship, especially if it's family, is more important than this issue. Try to find common ground, ask questions, hear them out. It's not about convincing them that I'm right, you're wrong.
It's like, I want to love them. And loving them is going to be able to hear them. And there's nothing wrong with saying I disagree. We're not going to be able to find common ground in terms of we're going to agree on this, but we can find common ground and we still love each other.
Yes. I think that understanding what's behind their passion, because some of us are so passionate about our issues and we might say it's because it's biblical. That's why I'm passionate. And when somebody feels passionate in a different view, there's something underneath that passion. And so to ask those questions, and if you want to enter into that territory, but I think loving them, seeing them, hearing, man, you are passionate about this. You know, tell me like, where's that passion come from? And there's sometimes a story behind it that I find really interesting. And when I hear the stories like, oh, it kind of pulls some pieces together. I still may not agree, but it makes sense. Like, oh, and wasn't Jesus just the expert and like so good at asking questions and Father God as well?
Absolutely. Adam, where are you? I sat at a basketball game in Detroit and a buddy of mine went to Iowa, played football there. So Rob and I got tickets to Iowa playing.
I don't know. I think it was Iowa State and the tickets were right center court. And so literally on the right of me was Rob and all Iowa to the left.
The next guy was Iowa State. And I've never experienced something like this in my life. Every single call, they saw it this way. We saw it this way. It was like, oh my gosh, they have no discernment on what's happening.
And either do we. It's like that reference is absolutely wrong. Like, I just want to turn it like, dude, that was the right call. And there was no change in their mind. I realized sitting there is like, there's no way you can convince them that that was the right call. They see it out of their Iowa State eyes.
We see it out of our Iowa eyes. It doesn't matter what is right or wrong. Truth didn't matter. This is the way it is. And I thought that is how people view opinions. That's so true. So it's like, I'm not going to change their opinion, but I can love them.
Is that partly true in relationships? Same thing? So first of all, I actually did an experiment just right now.
Like, I'm not a scientist, but here it is. Oh no. Do you know what I did? I sought to understand, not to be understood.
Yeah. And so when you asked me the question, I turned it back on you. You were Jesus. That is maybe the first time I've been accused of that.
But yes, I mean, I am supposed to be like him. And so... Instead of answering, you questioned. I questioned. And you know what? I didn't think I could like you guys more.
I mean, what a gift. I so appreciated your insight. But you know what? I learned something in the process. And iron sharpens iron.
When we think about iron sharpens iron, you know, that's if you're the iron that's in there, that's a really violent kind of uncomfortable sparks, the whole thing in order for sharpening to happen. So conflict is not bad. I think conflict can be holy. I really do believe it can be holy ground to understand people better.
But you're right. There's often a story. There's often a hurt.
In full disclosure, as vehement as we can be, it often stems from a hurt. So one of the things that I can say is, man, and I love that you're so passionate about this. I'm so glad that you feel so strongly about this.
Tell me more about that. You're such a person of conviction. You're such a person of conviction.
Even if you're in your head thinking you need Jesus and a lot of therapy or whatever it happens to be. Right. But you're not lying. I'm not lying. But I always you're right. We always get the story.
And you know what? We always get the perspective when we're sitting on the bleachers. I mean, what a cool seat that you had at that gate.
But it probably gave you, even as a pastor, some perspective on, you know, it's hard to see what that looks like. When our son was not even four, I'd had a hard mom day. And I'm just going to say my kids are great.
I super love them. We had lots of years of infertility. So we were super stoked when God finally allowed us to have kids. But our son is so different from me. Our daughter's just like me. So it's literally not mini me.
She's definitely her own person. But we think very similarly. There's a lot of shorthand between my daughter and me. But our son is so different. Everything is logical.
Everything's mathematical. He needs to know how everything works and what's the reasoning behind it and what all the things. And he would exacerbate a situation with his questions. I would be in the middle of something and I would be frustrated and he would just keep asking questions.
And of course, I want to be a place where he can ask questions. But there are times that he just would drive me crazy. It had been a rough mom day in full disclosure, not a totally great day for me. And we are driving to church for Christmas Eve. My husband was a worship pastor and he and our daughter had already gone to church. So it was Josiah and I in the car. And I was so frustrated. How old was he?
Four. And I can still see his little feet kicking in the car seat, like in the rearview mirror. He's six five now.
So it's hard to imagine those size 14s doing that. But at the time, he's a little kick in the car seat. And as we're driving, the Lord was softening my heart.
And I just got really grateful for the fact that we had a kid that could make me crazy. And I look at him in the rearview mirror and I said, Josiah, Merry Christmas. And he says, what about Joseph? I said, what about Joseph? And he's like, well, if there's a Merry Christmas, why isn't there a Joseph Christmas? Because he didn't read yet. So poor Joseph was getting left out of this whole thing. He had to make that whole trek with the donkey and everything. And he gets no glory and Mary gets all of it.
He was beside himself. Well, you know what? We just had to get to an understanding. We had to, like, kind of talk through terms and get to a place like, oh, no, no, we're actually all on the same page.
I'm actually saying, may your Christmas be happy, you know, which is different. And I think sometimes we're disagreeing on something. And if we would just take the time to say, tell me more about that or tell me why you're so passionate. I mean, obviously you're passionate about it. So tell me more about that. If we are really seeking to understand, number one, it communicates value. Number two, they are more open to hearing our side of the things. And sometimes once you get to the story, you think, you know what?
I can tell you my two cents, but it's not as important as the fact that you've got to hurt that I'd love to love on you about. My dad went to Berkeley in the late 60s and got a political science degree. So when he died, he had a Birkenstock tan still on his feet. And we disagreed about pretty much everything, especially once I became a believer. I mean, to tell you there was not a football team, there was not a theological issue, there was not a weather forecast that we totally agreed on. But one of the gifts that I was given is that I had a dad who would say, wow, thank you for sharing that perspective. And, you know, I 100 percent can say I bring that into conversations, not that I always handle it beautifully, but I always think, wow, I am richer because I know that side of it. Any debate team will tell you that the goal is to learn both sides so beautifully so that you can articulate your point.
You can feel really strongly about it and you can absolutely have an opinion one way or the other. But the goal is to know so much that you could argue either side because that makes you stronger in your point. That's good. So let's be godly debaters. Let's have good conversation, good exchange of information and exchange of understanding instead of I'm right, you're wrong, I'm sad for you.
I'm praying for you, which is what we often get. And so I think that's the important thing. I mean, what do you do when, and I know there's some listening that are like, yeah, but what I'm sharing with my friend, my family member, whoever it is, is truth. It's in the Bible. It's God's truth. What they're saying is not truth. It's false. It's a lie.
Am I supposed to just let, okay, I love them. They can spew lies and I let it happen. Or do I need to correct that and say, no, no, no, you have to understand that is not true. What I'm saying is true. Sometimes it's that and you feel this righteous part of you. It's like, no, I think God calls us to correct falsity. Is that a word?
Yeah, it is now. And speak truth. What do you do in that situation? Do you walk away or do you try and correct it? So again, once you've heard their side of it and you feel like you have a good understanding, sometimes I find that just repeating what they say. So what I'm hearing you say is that black is white or whatever the thing is, you know, the topic. And you say, that's so interesting. And my sister uses this thing, which I think is brilliant.
She had an executive coach that taught her this. You may be right when it's something that's subjective, when it's something that you're like, no, no, the scripture is clear. This is super clear.
One of the things that I found was like, wow, that is so interesting. See, when I look at John chapter five, I feel like this is what Jesus was saying. Maybe let's take a moment so that we're out of the thing.
How about we meet again on Tuesday? And I'd love to hear your perspective on John chapter five or whatever the chapter in verse or you may know the story. Gosh, that's interesting because I feel like when Jesus says, love others as you love yourself. What I feel like that means that we're supposed to love others as we love ourselves. And so, you know, I'd love your perspective on this.
I'd love to because, again, giving them a place of value. And again, they may get to a place where they say, no, it says love others if you want to. And if they're lovable, you know, you say, no, that is not what scripture says. We were all unlovable. And yet Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. He died for unlovable people. Right.
And yet saw value in us. So I think extending that. And then there's some things that you have to say. Calvary is the only hill worth dying on. Yeah.
It's the only one. I keep thinking about your dad. You guys were on polar opposite ends of certain conversations and views. And yet he was interested in you.
He thanked you for sharing your opinion. Like that's just maturity. I think that we get, as you guys said, like we get so bent out of shape because it feels like they're going against scripture and we're going to teach them the right way. But I love that idea because I'm thinking so many times in families, it creates so much tension that our grown kids may not even want to come to our house because that's where we go with it. Yeah. And so you might need to avoid the topic.
You might need to avoid any social media platforms. If that's what you need to be able to love and to be able to see people the way Jesus does. But I think it's like, what kind of application do we give? I know for me, especially during volatile times, even in our country, I've got to be on my face because I get so prideful. I feel like I know what's up. I know what's right and what's wrong.
And I need to be humble before God of saying, God, give me your eyes and your grace to love people the way you do, because it doesn't always come naturally. Because man, I get triggered by some of this stuff. Oh, you bet. You bet. But I read a little meme that somebody said, why would we disconnect ourselves from people we know for two people that we'll never meet? Yes.
Looking at those politicians. Yes. Where we disconnect from people that God has clearly put in our path to make a difference and be light in that situation for two guys we'll never meet. I mean, maybe we'll meet.
But although our friends. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, there you go. There you go. But I can say that I just keep going back to how would Jesus want me to act?
Like, what is behavior becoming of a follower of Jesus? Yeah. And the whole world will know who I am by how we love each other. Man, we have done a bad job. Agreed. Our marketing department in the love and unity is sorely lacking. So let's let's help change that, friends.
Right? You and the three of us at this table. Let's find common ground.
Yes. Let's find common ground. And maybe you have to have a conversation with a friend, a loved one, a family member of saying, I have been so vocal in my views and the way I've expressed them.
I feel convicted by it. And I'm really sorry if I've hurt you. Oh, that's good. Of just apologizing, because we've all probably done it.
But to apologize, that can build a bridge. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And believe it or not, we got you, you know this, to do a video about this, a video series called Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World, Building Peace in Our Own Backyards.
Who doesn't want to go through that study? Yeah. I mean, everything we've been talking about today, it's like, I know if I'm listening, I'm like, I want to talk more about this. I need help in this. Well, we got it for you.
Go to familylifetoday.com. You can get this video. It's free. Did you hear that?
It's free. And Amberlee's going to coach you through how to find common ground. I'm telling you, this never goes away. It isn't like you get to a place, even in a relationship, something can come up and it's like, we are now dividing again. Right. I want to get back.
So we've got a tool. Even with the person that we want to run off into the sunset with, you never get to a day you're like, nailed it. Perfect. I am awesome. Like no, no day.
There's always the, I could do this better. Amberlee, how do you feel about this? I am so excited. First of all, it's so timely. I just think we always need the reminder.
But we are in our election year too. Yeah. And I wanted to be practical when we talked about it. So every day there's a different really practical takeaway that we can practice, that we can think through, that we can challenge ourselves.
And maybe even challenge the people around us to be better and to love better and be more like Jesus. So it's not all touchy feely. It's not all just, you know, kumbaya. We have some serious conflict. There's some serious division. So we, in this video series, got serious about how to help people, you know, really empower them to be used by the Holy Spirit to be an instrument of peace. It could be a really interesting series to get and watch with somebody.
Ooh, yeah. Maybe even somebody you have differences with and it might help the two of you go, OK, we should approach this in a different way based on what we learned. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Amberlee Nice on Family Life Today. So as they were saying, are you kind of just tired of the tension and the division in your social media, in your family gatherings, or maybe even around your own kitchen table? Well, Psalm 133 tells us it's good for believers to live in unity with one another. But in today's easily angered and often offended world, it can really feel like wishful thinking.
Thanks, Psalm 133, but I don't know if that's ever going to happen. Well, that's why we're so excited to invite you to join us for a five week video series that we have put together along with Amberlee Nice. It's called Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.
Wow, that sounds very, very timely. So if you are interested in that and as Dave and Anne were saying, maybe you could watch it with someone you disagree with. You can find it at familylife.com slash finding common ground, or you could just check it out in today's show notes. But again, the website is familylife.com slash finding common ground. And in addition to being our guest today, you know, Amberlee is a comedian and she's also an author. She's written a book called Friendship Initiative, 31 Days of Loving and Connecting Like Jesus. You can get your copy right now by going online to familylifetoday.com or you can find it in the show notes or feel free to give us a call. Our number is 800-358-6329.
Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Just request your copy of Amberlee Nice's Friendship Initiative. Now tomorrow, Amberlee Nice is back with some practical advice on overcoming jealousy and embracing gratitude. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
