I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of like, I'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I gotta wait till my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.
If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com.
This is Family Life Today. So I'm looking at a children's book. I love children's books.
I know you do. Because we read all the time as our kids were growing up. I'm going to read you the first page. Oh, you are? Well, I'm not going to do a voice or anything, but I remember when I got the PDF and I loved it from the start.
It says, I sure hope you're wearing a belt because you're about to get the pants scared right off you. Get ready because I've got a story about some real bad guys. I know I didn't do a good job reading it. But we've got the author right here, Jimmy Needham, sitting there with his wife, Kelly. And have you ever written a children's book before? This is my first kids' book to write. Can I out you, though, that you have sketched out kids' books before?
I have. It has been an interest of yours. Well, you have five kids.
I'm 11 years old. Which is interesting, Jimmy, because you're a seminary student. You're a pastor. You're a recording artist. You kind of have your hands in a lot of different things.
But why a children's book? I love deep theology. Like you said, I'm in seminary.
I'm doing all that. I love that. But I'm also ridiculous.
Is this true? Kelly's shaking her head. What do you mean ridiculous?
Why are you shaking your head? Go watch our podcast and you will find out very quickly. I just love to play. I love fun. And it's actually been such a great outlet for me writing this book because it does allow me to scratch all of my theological itches while also being as absurd as I want to be and nobody tells me I can't. So it was fun to explore that sort of side of things and go, oh, I can I can have a pirate with hooks on his hands and feet and I can talk about, you know, which has really been a long time dream of yours to combine your love of humor and silliness with deep, meaningful theology. It really has been something. It's an odd pairing of people, but we're going to see if it works. It works.
I'm telling you right now. I laughed out loud at the pirate with it's not just one hook, but it's two hooks and then him and his feet too. Two and his feet. He's got four hooks. It's unfortunate, but you know, it is a pirate's life. So it's interesting to hear your back story on it, because when I'm reading it, I'm laughing because your humor comes in. There's these little clips. You're like, where am I going?
But the theology is rich. Thank you. Kids are going to pick up both and the graphics. The illustrator did a great job. I got to be honest, when I got him I was like, oh, kids book. And then I'm like, oh my goodness. This is not like every kids book. It's different. It's a different sort of take on things, which has been really fun for me. I love it.
Talk about real bad guys. What's the theology? I'm a parent, so I'm constantly in conversations about really important things with my kiddos. Which range from five kids between the ages of one and thirteen. So I'm in all the conversations.
We're just hitting all of it. This particular book started, I think there was a conversation I remember having with one of my daughters. We were watching something. It was like a news broadcast or something. And the story was about a criminal. He'd done something bad and the police were looking for him or whatever. And, you know, you've got the folks on screen.
You have the officer of the case and all that. And I remember her pointing to the suspect and saying something like, dad, is that the bad guy? She's trying to sort out who the characters are in this story. Who am I supposed to... That's true. Kids always distinguish who's the good guy, who's the bad guy. Who am I rooting for?
Who do I want to lose? That whole thing. They ask about it in movies.
Of course. I need to know who's on the naughty list. And they say bad guy a lot.
They do. Who's the bad guy? Who's the bad guy? Is that the bad guy? And I felt immediately a couple things in me.
The first was, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to sort out the characters. But I also, as a Christian, I know that answer is more complex than just he's the bad guy. Because my Bible reveals that he's the bad guy and everybody else on that screen is the bad guy. And I'm the bad guy. And you asking the question. Because all of us at our core, we all have sinned.
We've all rejected God apart from Christ. We're all the bad guy. But how do I say this to an eight-year-old? How do I make that make sense to her? Something that's really important that she needs to know and that I don't just want to gloss over with, oh yeah, that's the bad guy. Because when you do that, you're reinforcing all the stereotypes. It's like, oh the scary-looking people, the people who do the outwardly criminal things, those are the people who are bad and therefore, those are the people who need a Savior.
But what about my sweet daughter who is at the top of her class in school, who keeps all the rules, who's nice and obedient. Will she ever be able to see her need for a Savior if she doesn't realize she's on that same list as the guy on the screen? So that's what started this book for me was going, I want to be able to help you sense that we all need the same Savior. And so that was kind of the genesis of this story.
That's really good. Did you read the book? I know that you've read the book to the kids. What did they think?
They love it, thank the Lord, because they're my target audience. Yeah, and the main character, Millie, is she's sort of based on my second oldest daughter. And I thought, as I was starting to daydream about this, I thought, well, how do you talk about this in a way that'd be interesting for kids? The first thought that occurred to me was, it'd be really funny if all the stereotypical bad guys that we think about who would be on that screen, what if they came to life and corrected her theology? What if she was getting it wrong, like my daughter was? Both the nefarious fellas were the ones who... Teaching her right theology.
Teaching her right theology. So that's what happened. We wrote a story where it's got a gangster and a pirate and a robber and a mad scientist and Dracula's in it. And the book begins just like you read a second ago where she's... But you need to read it. Well, I was going to say, at least you have Dracula. When I first saw, oh, there's a Dracula, would parents have a pushback to that? Sure.
But he's so funny. Well, and one thing we talked about too, even in the illustrations and as you were writing it, is we were both talking about the types of books our kids gravitate toward. And you know what's interesting is a lot of our wonderful Christian books, they don't gravitate toward them.
They want the snarky, you know... They're picking up these graphic novels. It's interesting when I take them somewhere, just what their eyes are drawn to, what they're kind of interested in. Even in a bookstore where they go or a library.
Interesting. And so something sweet and quaint, we were thinking, I don't know if they would be into that. What kind of book would a kid be interested in? And it would kind of get at that humor that kids are starting to have anyway in their elementary years, right? They kind of want to make jokes that parents are like, you know, don't say that at the dinner table. It's like, how do you get them into that kind of fun headspace and teach them while they're there? I thought of our son, Austin, who has four kids and their kids range from four to nine. And I thought, this is the age group.
Especially the boys, all of them would love it. I like that the main character is a girl. And the characters, the vampire, he's not scary in a like, oh, I don't want to look kind of way. He's kind of funny. Yeah, there's really nothing scary about the book. And that's kind of the funny thing about it.
All these guys who you should be terrified by are actually sweet goofballs who actually have some really robust theology. So I have to hear like, yeah, you probably have an accent when you read it to your kids. Can you read a page? Kelly, who's his best accent of these characters? Just I love the mad scientist. Yeah, I'm trying to see if I can pull this up. Will. Oh, here we go. So she's introducing her bad guys. Yeah, she's introducing her bad guys. And she and Millie goes, meet the wicked Captain Hooks. Right.
This is Millie talking. That's right. Plural. You think having one hook on your hand is freaky. How about having them on both hands? And then he goes, yarr, and two on me feet.
It be a hardship, but it is a pirate's life. And or Dracula. I love it. You know, you think he's going to be so scary.
She says, that's right. The count himself staring to those beady eyes gaze at his ghastly fangs. News flash. He ain't a vegan. This guy hunts people, sleeps in a coffin. Ew.
And sells stolen watches from inside his cape. Trust me. Trust me, it's a killer deal. So it's ridiculous. Wow.
It's ridiculous. Are you going to put this on Audible? So we're actually making a whole video of me reading the book and all the characters with all the costumes. Wait, you're going to wear the costumes?
Oh, they're already in the house. I've seen them all. It's wonderful.
It was my favorite trip to Amazon online I've ever had. I just went nuts. I mean, yeah, mad scientist wigs and the whole deal. Seriously? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, it was so fun. So you're going to film this? Oh, we're going to film it. Let's just say he maybe only wrote the book to film it. Let's be honest. You're very excited about it.
That's right. Who's the mad scientist? He doesn't seem like he'd be a bad guy, but he is. He is a bad guy.
It's sort of that classic guy scheming with his poisons in a laboratory, but he's actually the one who introduces this whole topic to Milly of like, hey, what if being bad isn't really how you thought? What if God looks more at the inside than the outside? And that's really the punchline of the book is the way I distinguish it is to talk about outside bad versus inside bad. Which was genius to me.
Well, anyone can see that it's easy for me to spotlight. If you're holding an ax and you're running around like a mad person, it's like, yeah, this guy's probably bad. But what about a sweet-looking innocent girl?
Or what about God sees past that? So at one point they say, bring out the X-ray machine. That's the mad scientist. And they put it in front of her and they go, hey, look, these two guys, they bring out an inmate and then actually the little Easter egg in this book is the other person standing next to the inmate is me that the artist drew into the book. And I look like a normal guy and the inmate's in the black and white stripes and looking like a bad guy.
And then we turn on the X-ray, but what do you see inside? It's all thoughts about me wanting me to be glorified. I'm more important than God, all of that. It's an ugly truth, but it's the truth that the Bible reveals about what all of our hearts look like. And when Millie realizes it, she goes, so I guess we're all bad guys then. And she's lamenting, I guess there's no home. And I think the gangster says, well, not all of us are bad.
Wait, you have to say it like the gangster. Well, not all bad, Missy. And what she discovers is we are all bad, but there has been only one real good guy. And he died in our place and he died so that God would treat us like real good guys, even though we aren't.
I'm telling you, all of us asked that question. I can't remember, one of my granddaughters said to me one time we were alone, I think I was just laying in the bed with her, and she said, sometimes I want to do the bad things. You know, I thought she's confessing that all of us feel that at times. And this would explain the theology behind it.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And so it gives her a way to be able to understand, oh, there's a bad guy in me. Well, if I have one concern, I feel this as a pastor and I feel this as a parent to kids, is not that these people are going to go off and live wild lives. My biggest concern is that they're going to live basically good lives and convince themselves that they don't need a Savior and that they're OK.
I'm basically a good person. It's like, this is how the Pharisees saw themselves. And those were the people that our Lord had the harshest words for.
I don't want my children to grow up with an impression of like, I'm basically good. Jesus is really more for those folks. I got to wait till my life falls apart for the cross to make sense to me.
If that's how you're thinking about Christianity, you're actually missing it. I wrote this because I don't want to make little Pharisees. I want everyone to see their deep need for a Savior. And it's amazing when you see that not only does the cross become beautiful to you, but we become people who stop looking down our nose at other people, too, because we realize just like all these bad guys in the book, I'm on the same plane as you. We need the same mercy from God. And, man, I would so want that for my kids and for any child to read that. You're right.
There's a part of us that thinks, if you put the x-ray machine on me, my insides, compared to this dude, I'm better. I've told this before, but it's such a classic illustration. I was in this golf tournament with people I didn't know because it was a charity event. So there's two couples, and I'm like their fifth player with them. Anyway, one of the women that's in another cart comes up to me and says, hey, so the guy in my cart says you're a marriage expert. I go, no, I'm not a marriage expert. Well, didn't you write a book on marriage?
Well, why do you want? Anyway, she's convinced I'm a marriage expert. So she looks at me on this golf course.
I don't even know her name. And she goes, so I've got a marriage question. And I go, okay. She goes, I'm in my second marriage.
What's the problem with marriage? And I'm standing there on this golf thing, I've got 10 seconds to answer this deep. And I can tell she's like perturbed. I'm in my second marriage. And so I look at her.
I'll never forget. I go, I can answer that with one word. She goes, really? I go, yeah. She goes, what? I go, selfishness. And she goes like this.
I could not have scripted this. She goes, you are so right. My first husband was so selfish. And I just laugh and I go, yeah, I'm not talking about your first husband. I'm talking about you. And then I go, and I'm talking about me. And she stops and she goes, you're telling me you're a pastor and you're selfish?
I go, yeah, we all are. It was just this example, like we all see it in others. We don't see it in ourselves. And this book is just like, you put an X area in any one of us. There it is. But I love how you wrote Jesus was the only person, not the. Jesus was the only person who is good on the outside and on the inside.
That's right. What a turn in this book for a 5-year-old, 10-year-old, 15-year-old to go, what do you mean by that? The Gospel just jumps off the page. Well, I also like how you take Millie on a journey of her discovering the things that she has done. Walk us through a couple of those.
Do you remember some of her discoveries? Yeah, so those might be the most important pages of the book. You know, she's going, oh, okay, so like when I buy gifts for my friends and give it to them, but I'm only doing it so that they'll give me a gift later. It's like, okay, is the giving of a gift a bad thing? No, anybody would look at that and they would say, good for you, that's amazing. But what's happening on the inside of her?
She's doing it because she wants herself to be celebrated. Or when I sing loud at church, but only so other people would hear me and tell me how good a singer I am. You know, it's like if you saw somebody who's just pouring their heart out in worship on a Sunday morning, you'd go, be more like that person.
But we don't know what's happening in the heart. Again, I want to expose the readers to a new category of like, you can be doing the right things. Again, the Pharisees did so many of the right things. They prayed the prayers, they gave tithes of all that they got. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector story, right? I fast twice a week, I give tithes.
But he was not justified before God because he was doing it for himself. Well, I think the temptation as parents is to actually affirm this goodness in our kids. There's, I think, a strong temptation when our kids come to us like, no, you're good.
No, you're doing great. No, and we should be celebrating them. That's part of our role as parents, to be encouragers, to celebrate the wins. But as Christian parents, it's also our job to evangelize our kids. They do not come out the womb saved.
They don't. We all know that. But the first part of the gospel narrative is this piece we're talking about that you wrote about. It's, you need to see your need. And that starts with seeing motive. For most of our kids, it's going to start with motive. They're probably not going to be the kids. If you're listening to this program, it's like, they're probably not the kids.
They're doing outward bad things. You're probably training them well. They're probably moral. They're probably learning those things. But they still need to see, I'm motivated by self. And seeing that in every action is what's going to lead them to the cross. And you being able to admit as a parent, me too.
I'm only seeing change in that motive because I'm going to Jesus, not because I'm trying harder. One of the things I've been intrigued, it's different being a grandparent because I'm observing. I think in parenting, you're just in it so much. In grandparenting, you're observing sometimes like, oh, that's so interesting. Because sometimes when I'm with them, they like to hear stories where I have failed or I have sinned.
Like, what did you do? Yeah, yeah, sure. And so I realized, like, it's good for me to share my weaknesses and how I have sinned and what I have done with it. Why do you guys think that is with your five kids?
Like, when you have failed. Well, and you're right. Our kids like the same thing.
They do. Yeah. I think it reminds them you're human. Now you're relatable. Now you're not some unachievable standard that it's like, well, I'll never be like mom and dad.
I might as well abandon the whole project. It's like we try to, you know, one thing we try to do a lot with our kids, and we have plenty of opportunities to because we're sinners, is just repent to them a lot. Like the other days, two days ago, I was with my son and he had done something or other. And I was so angry in my moment of disciplining him. I was able to control myself, but not to the degree I liked.
And so I came back to him that night and just owned it. It was like I was disciplining you out of anger. And I think that was unkind to you.
He didn't please the Lord. I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me. He's five, you know.
But I want him to have a ton of memories of his dad being able to go, I failed. I am not perfect. There's only one real good guy. It's Jesus.
It's not me. If that's one of the takeaways he has when he's 18 leaving the house, it's like my dad repented a lot to me. It's like, well, I'm really happy for that. Well, and you're showing them the way into the kingdom when you do that, because that's how we come to Jesus and repentance and faith. But they've never seen anybody repent.
They don't know what that looks like. It's just words. And I think, too, as a parent, I did that a lot. But I would continue to beat myself up. It's almost like the gospel had no effect, where I repented before Jesus. I apologized to my kids, went to them and owned it.
But then I would continue this barrage of you are failing, you're a bad parent. And that's when the enemy can kind of slip in. But it's the beauty of the gospel.
Receive it. The price has been paid for us, and we can rest in that. And I'll say this. My kids remember the repentance more than what I actually did. I prayed that to, Lord, let them forget all the ways I messed up Jesus.
There are so many. And they do a lot of times. And so I would say receive his grace as a parent. Make sure you apologize. Talk to Jesus about it. Tell him the truth. Figure out what's going on in your heart.
But man, give yourself grace because he does. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I love at the end, you have conversation starters. So you literally give parents some questions and say, okay. A little bit of fodder for discussion.
And they're good. I mean, you're going to have a pretty deep conversation with a three or five or eight-year-old. Let's do a question.
Did you see one that you want to talk about? Yeah. I mean, in the story, Millie learns about outside bad and inside bad. What do these terms mean?
How are they different from each other? I mean, you're digging into the gravity of sin. Yeah, we talk about that in seminary. When we've had that conversation a little bit with our own kids, and it's interesting that within our five children, there are some that are more outside bad kids, right? And some that are more inside bad kids. So we've got a few of them that are really good at following the rules, but are really manipulative, right? So it's like they can follow the mom and dad's rules and kind of stay in line and not get as many of those discipline moments. And then there are others that are just wild and fearless and I'm just going to do what I want. And the ones that are more obedient on the outside can tend to have this, like, pride about it. So we've had really good conversations with some of our kids trying to help them see inside bad isn't always breaking the rules. It's why you're doing what you're doing. It's why you keep the rules. Why you keep the rules that you're actually the same as this sibling of yours that you kind of look down your nose at.
It's like, yeah, they maybe have outside bad. It's different. You have a question that goes along with that. I'm thinking this would be so fun to have kids and talk about these questions. You can probably undo one question at the dinner table. But one question even for a night.
Here's one of the questions. It can be tempting, this is what you're talking about, to look down on others who have more outside bad than us, like kids who get in trouble at school or siblings who might not obey mom and dad as well as you. How can seeing your own inside bad change how you treat other people? Guys, that's just deep. We can ask that every day in our marriage. I was just going to say, that's not just parenting. That's a marriage thing. We do the same thing in marriage. When you said some of your kids are better inside-outside, I thought, what's Jimmy?
Is he better outside-bad or inside-bad? I've got it all. I try to do both. I try to get a little bit of outside, a little bit of inside. We just keep it mixed.
I tend to be a rebel, so I'm more outside. I was going to say, definitely coming into marriage, I'm the inside bad person, you are the outside bad. That's even I too, for sure. What's interesting, and I think this is related to this conversation, you've had such a big effect on me in a positive way, that as my pride was being exposed in some areas of my life, some spiritual pride, especially early on in our marriage, I felt so distraught, like this picture I had of myself as this good Christian woman is getting destroyed, and I'm grieving that. I remember talking to you about it one day, and going, I thought the water in my glass was clean, and now it's all dirty. I'm so sad. And your response to me at one point was, well, my glass fell over and all the water poured out a long time ago.
That's why I'm okay with it, because I think I was asking for advice, like, how do I deal with this? But really, at an early age in your life, and then throughout the way that God saved you, your own personal testimony and story, you've been so thoroughly convinced of your badness from the moment I met you, that it's actually helped you understand the gospel more, receive it more, and live it out more than I was able to as a church kid who had all the rule-following together. And so I'm excited about this book, because it's Christian parents who are going to buy it, and those are the kids that need that truth, because it will set them free.
It's very counterintuitive to tell your kids they're bad to set them free, but it will produce more lasting freedom. I've seen that in you, and it's really changed me as well. And it's written in such a fun, compelling, draws everybody in, well done.
We're always looking for great children's book, and when they're deeper in theology, whew, that is a bonus. The thing I love about you guys is you're such fans of each other. I'm a big fan of this girl right here. I can tell. I'm a big fan.
Well done. One of the defining things in my life lately has been the grace that God has given me to see myself not as a good person, but a bad person who needs to be set free from my badness. And it's been grace that God has given me to see that. I love this, and I love, like Kelly said, the counter-intuitiveness of telling your kids that they're bad.
It doesn't sound very much like what we communicate in our culture today, but this could be the very thing that sets them free. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Jimmy and Kelly Needham on Family Life Today. Jimmy has written a book called Real Bad Guys, a story about good versus bad and the way God sees it. You can get your copy right now of Jimmy's book by going online to familylifetoday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes.
Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy. Again, that number is 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. And even though it's mid-September, the truth is February is just around the corner. Why am I telling you about February right now? Well, February 8th, we are setting sail for the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise. That's right, it goes from February 8th through the 15th where you can join a community of like-minded couples and really entrench yourself in a journey designed to rejuvenate your marriage, but more importantly, draw you closer to Christ. There are limited spaces still available, but they are limited, so head over to familylifetoday.com and click on the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise banner. There you can secure your reservation and get ready to embark on a week of relaxation, renewal, and romance. Again, you can head over to familylifetoday.com. Just click on the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise banner.
So as we approach the end of September, it might be weird to think about it, but Halloween is coming up soon. And depending on how you think about that, it can be a great opportunity to reach your neighbors and your neighborhood for Christ. Well, Jimmy and Kelly Needham have some advice to help you with that based on a few things that they have done. So you can watch a video about that, read an article, and download a specific playbook that they've developed. You can head over to familylifetoday.com or click on the link in the show notes to get all those resources. Now, coming up next week, if you couldn't join us for the last Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise, don't worry. Brian and Stephanie Carter are going to be here to talk about their insights on building and restoring trust in your marriage. It's a message from the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise last year. That's coming up next week. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
