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The Bible teaches there's two, heaven and hell. And all of eternity depends upon who we choose to give us life. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.
You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. So we've got some older people in the studio today, but they're not old. They're not old.
I've never opened. That's an accurate statement. Well, actually, they're on both sides of the table.
It isn't like we're looking at older, much older than us. But we've got Dennis and Barbara back. Our friends.
Rainy. What we were. Yeah.
That just ended about 30 seconds ago. But if you haven't been listening the last couple of days, those have been rich, deep conversations about how to grow older, but not become old. And the key word there is grow. And so we want to keep this conversation going.
And again, I'm not going to review everything. But one of the biggest things you said in the last couple of days is keep growing and keep becoming a disciple. Never stop learning. Right? Live on purpose. Surround yourself with some younger people that you're pouring into that keep you young.
Surround yourself with older people that you're doing life with. Right? Right. Today, let's talk about where we're headed. Let's talk about the future. Let's talk about heaven. Not many people talk about heaven.
Well, that's what I was just going to say. How many conversations have you had recently about heaven? Why don't we talk about heaven?
What do you think? I think because we're afraid of death and that's how we get there. And so I think we avoid it because it's unpleasant to think about what we might have to go through.
I think we're pain avoidant at all costs, most of us, and that has some pain associated with it. But I'll tell you a story about a conversation Dennis and I had. A few years ago we were in Colorado visiting our kids and we went for a walk one night, just the two of us.
And of course the weather is so amazing in the summer. And we went for this really long walk. And at some point while we were out walking, somehow the conversation turned to heaven. And I don't remember to this day how we got there.
I mean, I have no idea. Maybe the Spirit of God led us to talk about it. But I remember asking Dennis, do you think about heaven very much? And he said, well, not really. And I said, well, when you think about it, what do you think?
And I can't remember what he said. And I said, well, you know, I've been thinking about it lately and here's what I think. And I'm sure this was inspired by some verse in Psalms. You know, there's the verse where God says he's made his wonders to be remembered. The concept is God wants us to remember what he's done. There's a lot about remembering in Scripture.
And so I said, I've been thinking about heaven and I wonder if, when we get to heaven, if, because there's no time, time is only for earth, there's no time in heaven, might we be able to see some of the things that God has done that we've read about in the Scripture, might we be able to see them real time? Oh, Barbara. Wouldn't that be fascinating? I always talk about this. Do you? I thought I was the only one. No, I'm thinking you don't. You want to see it all?
Yes. I want to see it all like a movie. Why would God not want us to see the Red Sea Party, one of the greatest things he's done that we've all read about. And just imagine, why wouldn't he want us to see the real thing and then praise him afterwards because now we know what it was really like, right? Surely we will all get to see it, whether we go back or, I mean, we watch movies today, there's probably something a lot better. See, I think there's movies too. Me too. I think there's instant replay or movies or some combination of all of the above. I mean, nothing's too hard for God. Right.
Right? Don't you want to see it all? I want to see every bit of it. I would love to see it all.
I want to meet everybody. I want to hear their stories because I do think that God has made his wonders to be remembered. And he wants us to worship him for all that he has done for us and for everyone else. I mean, we all rejoice when we talk to someone who's had something great that God has done and we celebrate that with one another. And I think heaven is going to be just this ongoing celebration of what God has done in our lives and what he's done for other people.
And I think we'll be able to see all these things. And when I told Dennis, he said, really? Are you sure?
I don't think so. Wait, do you guys not think about this? Have you thought about that, Dave? Oh, I do, obviously.
But he hadn't and he was kind of surprised. I never thought it could possibly be a reality, but why not? I think so. Yes, God can do anything.
Yes, why not? And so that started us talking and we just kept talking that night as we walked about what ifs. And then a couple of months ago, I believe it was, maybe it was back in the fall, we had friends over for dinner. And somehow after dinner, we started talking about heaven and the same thing happened. And I shared with them about movie theaters and instant replays and seeing some of this and they kind of looked at me funny.
And then they thought, well, I suppose that's possible. And we just started talking again more about heaven. And the reason I'm telling this is because I think that we need to be talking about it more.
I think we imagine, like, for instance, if you're going on a trip to someplace you've never been, you get travel journals, you talk to people who've been there, you read what you can read about it because you want to know where you're going so you can anticipate it. Well, why wouldn't we do the same for heaven? I think it's great for our faith to talk about what's waiting for us. And one of the things we've done recently, and I haven't finished reading it, but Dennis pulled out Randy Alcorn's book on heaven, which is like a textbook. Yeah, it is.
But it's good. It's not quick reading, but it's very good. And he read the whole thing and he was, every morning he would say, listen to this, what I've just read. And he loved it, so now I've started reading it again. I need to read that again. Take us there, Dennis. What are you learning?
What's intriguing you? Well, I've got the confession to make. As a boy, I didn't want to go to hell, a place of judgment for people who don't know Christ. But I knew it existed because Jesus talked about it. And I also knew heaven existed, too. But I didn't want to go to heaven because I thought, what are we going to do for eternity? And then I got into Alcorn's book. And one of the things he teaches in here, the scriptures are talking about the new Jerusalem, the new heavens, the new earth, where all that has been under the curse of the fall of man in Genesis chapter three, when the serpent deceived the woman and the man, sin tainted everything. Randy Alcorn is talking about how the gospel just doesn't redeem sinners and give them new bodies. But there's going to be a new earth and a new heaven. New creation.
I can't wait to see that. I know, right? So there may not be three primary colors. There may be three billion primary colors. Sound that we hear?
Will be so much better. A fraction of real sound and beauty? Beauty is one of the greatest apologetics for the existence of God.
Barbara's taught me that. And so I think we're going to see things so beautiful in heaven that it's going to be what is there to expect to explore today? Now, does that mean that's all going to happen? I can't point to a chapter and verse in the Bible where it is. But my point is, if God loves us and he is love and he says he is and he says he does, then he has prepared a place for us that where he is, we may be also. And he said, eye hath not seen, nor ear hath heard. Beauty, sound, all of what God has created for those who know Jesus Christ and have placed their faith in him. So it's not so much just that the gospel saves us from hell, but it gets us into an entrance of something so grand, so wonderful. So another thing, speaking of that, is that I think often what was Adam and Eve have been like before? Yeah, the fall.
Right, before the fall. When you think about our abilities and different ones have different exceptional abilities. So there are a lot of people that have to wear glasses like we do now. But there are some people who have exceptional eyesight.
20-20 is what we consider normal and perfect eyesight. But what do you think our eyesight really will be? And we think about hearing in a certain way.
And what do you think our hearing really will be? And then we watch these exceptional athletes who can jump so high off the floor and most of us can't jump, you know, six inches. But what if we're all like that? And brain capacity. And brain capacity, yeah.
I mean, they say we only use a small percentage of our brain. I just think even that leads us to worship. Because I think our bodies are going to be so much better than we can even possibly imagine because of what we lost in the fall. If we just think about what we lost, and then the resurrected body is going to be so much better. So it's another reason that looking forward to heaven is an exciting prospect, not a dull, boring, oh, I don't want to go there.
I mean, I think there's so much to look forward to. Now, how does that motivate you to grow older? Well, my mentor and teacher and professor at Dallas Seminary, Howard Hendrick, said, and it was said of him at his memorial service after he died, with his boots still on, by the way, having taught more than 13,000 students at Dallas Seminary. He said, the day your past is more exciting than the future is the day you start to die. Isn't that great?
Yes. I love that one. The rear view mirror is good to look at and glance at occasionally, but eyes transfixed on where you've been, the regrets, the mistakes, the errors, etc. You're going nowhere when you're looking backwards. But if you're looking forward to heaven and to what God has waiting for us. Yeah, and I've often thought in my Christian walk, if all my stories of God's miracles in my life or sharing Christ with a neighbor or a stranger are all five years ago, even a year ago, what am I doing? Yeah, exactly. It's like they need to be fresh, which means I haven't quit.
Right. I'm not apathetic anymore. I'm like, I'm going. I've got my eyes open. And I'm like, God used me and he will. We're willing to say, use me.
Here I am. Send me. He'll send you.
And you'll have a fresh story today or yesterday rather than 10 years ago. I started thinking about going to heaven and I thought, you know, if we were going on a vacation, what would you do? You look for some travel guides.
You'd call a travel agent who'd been there. We went to Italy as a result of leading family life for a number of years and finally got away. And so I called a woman who'd been there 20 times. And we spent a week with another couple. The wife was Italian and they'd been there 15 times. So we had all this travel experience that we went to.
And so it was like, if you're going to go to heaven, wouldn't you want to be reading about what heaven is and what we'll do in heaven? I told my dad the same thing. I said, Dad, I don't know a better planner for vacations than you. You know, remember the AAA triptychs? My dad would go to AAA. He'd get that triptych. He'd sit down. He'd have everything laid out, the maps, what we can do.
He has it all calculated and graphed out. And I said, you're such a good planner. You couldn't wait for the next vacation. Don't you want to know about heaven?
There's going to be nothing that compares to heaven that you've done. And the Bible talks about it and there's books written about it. But he was scared. He said, if I start talking about it, I feel like maybe I'll be there too soon. That fear part. I think the fear is real. Yeah. But I think the opposite is true.
I think if we talk about it, it makes us excited about going. Yeah. And it gives life to our todays.
Yes. If you have anticipation for the future and hope for the future, you're going to be more alive today. I remember talking to a lady in a nursing home. She was well into her 90s, couldn't get out of bed, had this view of like, God is going to use me. She told me I was sitting beside her bed.
She goes, when I woke up this morning, I took a breath and I thought, I'm still here. God must have something for me today. And I thought, oh boy, I need that attitude.
Oh, I'm still here. He must have a purpose for me today. I love that. Me too.
I love that. When Billy Graham died, I went to his memorial service and the program had some words about heaven. Billy Graham said, don't mourn for me and where I am because I'm going to be breathing celestial air. Bill Bright said the same thing, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ and Crew. I think we need to be talking more about heaven. And I think we need to go near people who have a knowledge like Randy Alcorn of a book that's like a travel guide about going to heaven. One guy that we ran across who had some great words about heaven, Dallas Willard.
He was an author, professor and thought leader on the West Coast. One thing I found out or we found out about Dallas Willard was that when he was two, his mother died. And her final words on her deathbed to her husband, Dallas Willard's dad, were these, quote, keep eternity before the children. Isn't that amazing? When I first heard that, I thought my last words as a mom would have been, make sure they know I love them and take care of them. And I would have never thought to say that, but isn't that amazing? Keep eternity in front of the children.
I would have never thought of that. And I think he did. I think so.
Yeah, she did. Because listen to what Dallas Willard said near the end of his life. He said this about heaven. Your eternal destiny is not cosmic retirement. It is to be a part of a tremendously creative project under unimaginably splendid leadership.
On an inconceivably vast scale with an ever-increasing cycle of fruitfulness and enjoyment. This is the prophetic vision which I have not seen nor ear hath heard. Wow. Isn't that great?
Yeah. So to start talking about that, it makes living life now even all that much more important that we make deposits in heaven where rust, where moths can't destroy. We're taking people with us to heaven. Jim Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, he said, My goal in life is to share Christ with as many people as possible and take as many with me to heaven as I possibly can.
That's pretty crystal clear. And I think we need to be thinking back. When's the last time we talked to a person about their eternal destiny?
Because everybody's got one. The Bible teaches there's two, heaven and hell. And all of eternity depends upon who we choose to give us life. And there's where Jesus Christ, he's the savior. He came to redeem us.
He died for our sins to satisfy a righteous God who can't let us in in our current sinful state. I know one of the privileges actually of being a pastor and doing funerals is it keeps heaven right in your face. Whether it's an old person or a young person, it doesn't matter.
I mean, you get the privilege of doing a wedding, which is the beginning and usually younger. And then you walk up and you have to deliver words to a family and friends who have just lost a loved one. And you get in your car and you drive home and you're reminded like, today matters. How I live today matters because we're all going there. You know, it's not a matter of if, it's when. And so I want to live today full out because when I go there, it's glorious.
It's going to be incredible. And it's interesting too, because we've gone to a lot of weddings and we'll say like, wow, that was great. But when you've gone to a funeral of someone who has impacted lives for eternity, those are the ones you're talking about that on the way home. And like we've had many of those discussions of person after person who stood up testifying, this man changed my life. This woman led me to Christ or taught me or mentored me.
And we've come home in the car and it's like, we want to do that, we want to be that instead of just growing old and living for ourselves. I mean, I've done a few funerals and I usually try to encourage the family to do an open mic. Like, hey, I'm going to give you a moment and I can lead it and we'll keep it brief. But I'd love to have people stand and, you know, you don't even have to do a mic.
Just say some words. I've done a few and nobody said a word. There was nothing to say. No impact.
There was no impact. You could see they're sort of angry. Your dad was one of those, Dave. Yeah. And I've done others where you got to stop it after 20 minutes, like, OK, we can't just keep going.
This has been amazing. And even if I didn't know the guy or gal, they're just somebody that I'm doing the funeral for and they're a stranger. You walk out like that's a life of impact. I don't know who they were, but they literally changed people for the kingdom. And it's always what you already said yesterday, living on purpose.
They're living on purpose. OK, so you've got the person listening that's saying, but do we really know if we can go to heaven? Do we really know? Well, the metaphor that Jesus uses, he says, Behold, I stand at the door, knock. If anyone hears my voice and bids me to come into him, I will come in with him and sup with him and have fellowship with him. And I think people are listening right now who've heard Christ knock at the door, but they didn't do anything. They paused. They got distracted.
They thought there was a life somewhere else better that they could live than this life that Christ has. And I say, just take him at his word and say, Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. I'm opening the door and inviting you to come in to my messy life and take my mess and make it your life. Purposeful, meaningful all the way to the finish line.
And may I be used by you to take a lot of people to heaven with me. Yeah, that's the goal. I'll finish with this. I heard this quote, I bet over 20 years ago. So I was somewhat young, you know, and I bet you in my forties, I was like, Oh my goodness, I'm getting so old.
Right. But we were young men and women then. And maybe you've heard this quote, but I remember hearing it then and not appreciating it like I do now in the later years because of what it said. And I don't know who Hunter S. Thompson is, but I bet you've heard this quote. He said, life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride. Really?
That's the way to end it. I've never heard that. Isn't it great? I haven't heard that one.
It feels great. I've heard it years ago and I'm like, that's the goal. To the last breath, Bill Brite. Oh yeah. To the last breath, Billy Graham. Yeah. May our kids and our great grandkids say about Nonnie and Poppy, whatever they call you guys, right?
They ran to the very end. That's what I want to hear. Me too. When I attended Billy Graham's funeral, I've only had this happen one time in my lifetime. I've been to a lot of funerals like you have. Yeah. Can't imagine.
I actually collect the programs and save them and summarize on the outside of the program. You brought them to the pheasant hunt. I did.
I showed the guys a few of those. But at the end of some incredible stories of the grace Billy Graham gave his daughter who was divorced twice and how she was so ashamed. And he was standing at the top of the driveway with his arms out like this when she came home. He was waiting on her. What a picture of the love of God and the grace of God. And so after he had all these stories in his coffin, it was made by prisoners in a prison in Louisiana.
Magnificent oak, as I recall, coffin was put on these rollers and they rolled it out of the tent there in Charlotte where we were meeting. And they pushed it across the road and up a sidewalk going up to where he was going to be laid. I still regret this day that I didn't do what I wanted to do, which was clap. Stand and give a standing ovation to the man who did it.
That's how you do it. He wasn't perfect. I heard him say some really clumsy things near the end of his life.
You know, it happens to all of us. But he did it. He ran the race all the way to the finish line. I was with another friend, Timmons was his name, and I leaned over to him and I said, I feel like standing and applauding while they're rolling this thing along. It was total silence, though, in awe of God, I believe, ultimately, but also a life well lived. And I'll tell you where they were clapping when he entered into the gates of heaven and the people that he led to Christ for standing there. I bet they gave him a standing ovation. I got a feeling you're right.
I hadn't thought of that, but that's a good thing. Well, thank you. We love you guys. We love you, Dave. Our heroes, our mentors. And we're watching. We're watching. We're following.
That's what we're doing. Wasn't it fun to be with the Rainies today? It was awesome. And I'm inspired.
Me too. Just hearing stories of how God worked in our founder and former president, Dennis and Barbara, and what they're doing now. And I tell you what, every time I'm around them, they're our mentors. Yeah. I'm fired up spiritually.
Well, that's what I was thinking, too. I thought these guys have mentored us from close and afar for years. And I don't know about some of you as a listener. Do you have a mentor? We're hoping that this program could help mentor you, but also you would find somebody from afar or somebody close that could really pour life and inspiration into you. Yeah, one of the amazing things that mentors do is they help you to, Psalm 34, taste and see that the Lord is good. And I felt that way with Dennis and Barbara.
Me too. You know what, if you jump in and become a partner financially with us, you can help others taste and see that the Lord is good by sharing this program with your neighbors. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Dennis and Barbara Rainey on Family Life Today. As Dave and Ann were talking there at the end, the easy way to partner with us is simply by going online to familylifetoday.com to make your donation. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329 to make your donation. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Or feel free to drop us a donation in the mail if you'd like. Our address is Family Life 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832. Now coming up next week, Daniel Nayeri is with us to talk about his memoir, Everything Sad is Untrue.
It's the story of him growing up with his childhood in Iran and then escaping to America and how God used that to shape his life. That's coming up next week. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.
