Shannon Popkin has experienced what every mom has experienced when she tries to compare her kids with other people's kids.
Angela's one of my best friends, and Angela's kids are perfect. I said, like, her girls, you know, they bump into each other in the hallway and say, oh, sorry, sissy, and give each other a little hug. They sat, and they did little crafts, and my boys are, like, shoving each other down the stairs, like, you know, trying to show off.
You know, trying to show off in front of these little girls and play macho, and I was just undone with comparing my kids to my friends' kids. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine.
You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. Comparison is like having a pet snake. It can turn and poison you at any minute. You've got to be careful. We'll talk more about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.
Thanks for joining us. I will never forget an article. This was 25 years ago that somebody gave me this article, and it talked about supermodels, and they had asked the supermodels on a scale of 1 to 10, what grade would you give yourself? And all these supermodels were giving themselves sixes and sevens, and they were immediately pointing out what was wrong with their body and why they were sixes and sevens. And I'm thinking, time out.
People are paying you tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars— If not millions. Because of your iconic beauty, you look in the mirror and you see your flaws. And I thought, what is up with that? Because for guys, I don't know about you, Dave, I look in the mirror, I look great. You know, Bob, you do look great, you know?
Looking better every day. I tested this out at a conference I spoke at once where there were probably a thousand women, and I said, how many of you looked in the mirror this morning and said, I look amazing. And I thought there'd be several.
There might have been out of a thousand, maybe five that stood up. And the rest of us, I think we get in the mirror and we're like, oh. We see the flaws, right?
Exactly. We're talking about the whole subject of comparison, which is the subject of a book that our friend Shannon Popkin has written. She's with us again today. Welcome back to Family Life Today.
Thank you, Dave. Shannon has written a book called Comparison Girl. And I'm, again, just thinking when it comes to beauty, appearance, I've seen guys. Guys are not as focused on appearance, most of us aren't, as women are, don't you think?
But I do think it's changing. I think our younger men are experiencing more pressure in this area. I know that, you know, when I coached high school football, middle school basketball, 25 years ago, you could go shirts and skins, you know, for a little scrimmage in the gym with boys. And now not allowed because they're so self-conscious about their... About body image. Yeah. Like back then, you really never thought of it, take your shirts off, you guys, let's go. And now you're like, they will just look at you like, no way, there's no way I'm taking my shirt off, I know I'm a little overweight, I'm 12 years old, I'm very self-conscious, I'm going to compare to everybody there. It's a new day.
Pretty interesting. I remember when my daughter was little, she grabbed a tube of my lipstick, she's like maybe two years old, and she said, I'm going to go get all pretty. And then she went and she looked in the mirror and she said, oh, I is all pretty. It's so sweet. It's so innocent and pure.
And they just lose that, it's so hard. Do you remember when you first started comparing how you look with how other people look? I do.
Really? I remember, yeah. It was sixth grade camp.
Okay. And our teacher had told us it was going to be the best week of our lives, and I got there and it was not the best week of my life. We were combined with the other elementary schools and I was put in a cabin, my best friend was in the other cabin, and I was put in this cabin and I was watching this little group of girls on the other side of the cabin. And, you know, they had cute hair and they were wearing cute clothes and they were talking about the cute boys and I was pretty sure that the cute boys were talking about them.
And there was this one girl in particular, her name was Kim, and she just really sweet personality and everybody kind of watched what she did. And I remember she said, I'm going to take a shower at night because apparently it was way better to take a shower at night. And all the other girls agreed, oh, yeah, we're going to take a shower at night. And I wasn't planning to take a shower at all because this was camp. Like I wasn't into all the cute clothes and stuff. And I remember thinking, like, what are they going to do? I hadn't brought a towel or shampoo.
Like, what are they going to think of me by day three, the girl who doesn't take a shower at all? And then I remember watching this cluster of girls come back and Kim, her hair is all damp and she rolls her hair up in these pink sponge rollers. And I had never seen anything like this. And so I watched her doing this and then the next morning she pulls these rollers out and it was a sight to behold.
I was mesmerized because she had these big bouncy curls that kind of moved on her shoulders as she walked. And I thought, oh my goodness. I went home from camp. I had gone to camp happy-go-lucky, you know, carefree. And I went home from camp feeling like I am never going to measure up this deep sense of inadequacy. Like suddenly, like I was comparing myself to these other girls. You know, I did think, I think I've discovered a secret.
I think it's pink sponge rollers. And I asked my mom to get some and I tried them out. I did it just like Kim. And I went to the mirror the next morning and it was not a thing of beauty. It looked like I had been electrocuted because I had really short, thin hair.
And so it did not work out for me. But I just remember that being a turning point where I went from happy-go-lucky to sick to your stomach inadequate. And I think, you know, our enemy really capitalizes on that time in a girl's life when her eyes are suddenly opened to the differences that she sees. You know, she was kind of blind to it before, to some degree, blind to these differences.
And suddenly she realizes like, oh my goodness, there are measurements and everyone's taking them and how do I measure up? So it's there for every 14-year-old. Is it there for every 40-year-old too? Yeah, I don't think we outgrow it. Well, I know, Anne, you've told me, I'll let you speak, but you've said when women walk in a room, they immediately compare to all the other women in the room. Is that true? Yeah, I think that is true. I think that we do that from an early age.
I think every single woman, maybe guys have this too, but I know every single woman has a moment in time where she suddenly felt inadequate physically. Yeah, I remember meeting my Bible study group just this year. I was a new leader and I didn't know any of these women who were in this group. And I remember entering that circle and looking around at them and thinking, oh my word, they are all perfect. And not just the way that they looked, but the way that they carried themselves.
And I thought, what am I doing in this group? And you know what, now we've all gotten to know each other and I don't see them that way. They're just sweet women of God, but there is something about appearances and that sideways glancing where we're constantly measuring ourselves against our external packaging, as I like to put it. And I think men do it in a different way. Right. And I think Bob does think if he concurs, because sometimes it can be physical for a guy, but we compare and women do too, but in all areas.
It could be intellect. So you're sitting in a room and then he starts to talk and you're like, whoa. He's really smart.
I thought I was smart, but I'm nowhere near, or especially athletic. You know, I came home the other day here in Little Rock after playing full court basketball in the morning and it's real early in the morning. So I walk in and jump on the bed because Ann's still sleeping and I kiss her and I say, how you doing? It's going to be a great day. And she goes, so you played really well today? Really? I can't just like kiss you and love you?
She goes, nope. I know you too well. You must have played really well today.
So compared to the other guys, I played well that day. And so it's like, wow, it's still there and I'm in my sixties. Right.
It doesn't go away. Not all that's a bad thing, but if that drives your happiness in life, you're in trouble. Yeah. Vodi Bakhum said in The Art of Marriage, he said men tend to measure based on the ball field, the billfold, and the bedroom.
Right. Women have different things that they measure on. And beauty is one of those things that for a woman, a woman's beauty is a part of what she's measuring herself against others with.
There's a whole comparison thing there. And what does a woman do if her body shape is different or if her hair doesn't measure up? I mean, how do you do if you look in the mirror and you go, I'm just not as attractive as other women are?
Is that debilitating for a woman? Well, I remember being nine years old and we were in Florida on vacation. And I was just laying on my towel on the beach, but I was watching women go down the beach in these tiny little bikinis. But I was also watching the effect it had on the men around them, how men would watch them. And I remember thinking, I can't wait to become Barbie, the Barbie doll.
Wow. And I kept thinking, someday I'm going to look like Barbie. And so I was waiting and waiting and waiting. And it was this cruel thing in my mind that, oh, I remained Barbie's kid sister, Skipper.
Because I'm only 5'1", you know, I'm little, I'm a gymnast. And so I was like, oh, no, does that mean I'm less than? And so what happened is this deep-seated insecurity started to build up. And I saw women as a competition instead of my friend, instead of my sisters alongside of me. And because I saw them as competition, I stopped complimenting them.
I stopped seeing the good in them. I only saw my own inadequacy and trying to build myself up to feel better about myself. And I think that's when it can get dangerous, where Satan really has his heyday of building walls between us as women. Absolutely. Yeah, comparison. Either we feel inferior or superior. Either way, we pull away from each other when we're measuring ourselves against each other.
And I think when we start comparing, often we're kind of oblivious to this cosmic battle that's going on with this enemy who's infiltrating. And I think, you know, especially as women with our appearances, I think it's really important to recognize that if we have some voice that we're hearing that's saying, hey, look over at her. Look at her, she's a mess. You've really got it together compared to her. That voice is never Jesus. That is always Satan. And by the same token, if we're looking over at a woman thinking, oh, look at her.
She really looks good in her late 40s, early 50s. You know, compared to her, I am just a mess. Again, that voice is never Jesus. That is always our enemy trying to shame us or trying to get us to inflate ourselves. And what if we could just have the freedom to just be the one that God created us to be, be comfortable in our own skin and live with a me-free perspective, not just so painfully self-focused and measuring myself. You know, it's only when we have that me-free perspective that we can celebrate our sisters. We can say, you look beautiful today. I am so, I so love the way God put you together.
Your packaging, but also your personality and your gifts and your talents. That's what we're designed to do. Oh, Shannon, I have to tell you that I was in seminary. Dave and I were going to seminary and I was teaching at a fitness club in California.
So these clubs are packed out. And I was an instructor and there were a lot of instructors, but this one, she was perfect. She was beautiful.
She was free in herself. She was nice. And so I never talked to her. And all the women talked about her like, oh, look at her. She thinks she's so amazing. And it was this gossip session. I didn't enter into that, but I never established a relationship with her.
And I'll never forget the day. She's in the mirror. She's doing her hair and makeup. And I'm like, look at her.
She's perfect. And I felt like God was saying, go celebrate her. And so I went up to her and this is the first time I'd really just celebrated another woman, not seeing her as my competition, but seeing her as my sister. And I said, I want you to know you are one of the most intimidating women to me because you're so stunningly beautiful. And then it's even worse that you're so nice. And she looked at me and she goes, really?
You think so? It was amazing to me because she and I became really good friends. And I thought, oh, isn't that fascinating? Because I kind of voiced my insecurity. But I complimented how God had made her. It's like all the walls came down. Oh, and wouldn't it be great if we could see that and speak life to one another, as you said?
Well, how do we husbands help our wives when they're struggling with this comparison? Because, I mean, I've never in one second in my life thought she's Skipper. Right?
Never. I mean, I thought, you know, God is, I mean, she's the most beautiful woman I've ever laid eyes on in my mind. She's Barbie times 10. Isn't it just awesome that love is blind? So, I mean, honestly, she would share these insecurities, especially early in our marriage. And at first I laughed, literally out loud, like, yeah, like you think you don't look.
And then it took years. I'm like, she really thinks this. And I know a lot of women think this, but I was so naive. I thought, she's just trying to fish for a compliment. Then I'm like, oh my goodness, when she looks in the mirror, she does not see what I see. I see beauty. I see an incredible woman of God. She sees all these flaws.
And so I think husbands are like me. They're like, what do I do? I've said to her, I think you're beautiful. She's like, no, you don't.
No, I really, no, you don't. You know, so talk to the men a little bit. What do we do? Because we're the guys trying to help you see what we see, but sometimes it feels like they, we don't know what to do. And social media has made it even harder, hasn't it?
It has. Yeah, with my own husband, I just know that he encourages me by saying, I think you're beautiful. You're great. I wouldn't change a thing. And just assuring me that he loves me and that he's happy. He's happy with the way that I look, even if I'm not happy.
He's happy in that. And you know, I think giving that compliment, do you know how many wives never hear a compliment from their husbands? And maybe the husband is thinking wonderful things about how his wife looks. But I can tell you the different times that my husband will turn to me and say, wow, you look really good, or I really like that outfit, or did you get your hair cut?
I mean, those sink in deep. Every wife wants to look beautiful for her husband, and those are very, I think that's a picture of Christ in the church when a husband encourages and affirms his wife. So, here's the question. Should a woman care about her appearance, or should she not care about her appearance?
I think the answer maybe is both. She should to the degree that she has the autonomy over her appearance. But you know, for a woman who's five foot one to be constantly looking at a woman who's six feet and having this angst and frustration that she's not like this other woman over there, she's really living in bondage rather than just surrendering to her creator who fashioned her and made her exactly the way he wanted her to be. My friend and I were talking about this whole idea of our appearance. Is it important? Is it not important? And I think what you said is right, Shannon, that it's both. But I think it's more important to take a long gaze at Jesus and just a glance at ourselves because we don't want to be consumed with our outward appearance because believe me, in time and age, it only goes downhill.
And so, let's not get our self-worth and our identity from the outward package, but let's gaze at Jesus and remember what he says about us and how he loves us and the gifts he's put in us. You know, you didn't write about this in your book, but as I was thinking about the issue of comparison and thinking about moms, I know the behavior of your kids and the respectability of your kids may be one of the biggest comparison traps that are going on. What activities is your kid in? What grade point is your kid in? How's your kid doing? Did your kid get expelled? Did your kid have to stay after school?
Didn't you find, as you were raising your kids, that you were constantly comparing, are your kids behaving as well as the other kids are behaving? Yeah, I remember a girlfriend visiting my house for a weekend. She lived away and would come a couple times a year with her kids. And she left one weekend, and my husband was like, Why are you so grumpy? You know, you're usually, like, cheerful after Angela's been here. She's one of your best friends.
Like, why are you so grumpy? And I'm like, Angela's kids are perfect. I said the whole weekend, like, her girls, you know, they'd bump into each other in the hallway and say, Oh, sorry, sissy, and give each other a little hug. They sat and they did little crafts, and my boys are, like, shoving each other down the stairs, like, you know, trying to show off in front of these little girls and play macho. And I was just undone with comparing my kids to my friends' kids.
And you know what? The temptation with a friend like that is to pull away, to isolate, and to just say, You know what? I don't want to be her friend anymore. She makes me feel inadequate.
But what a gift I would miss out on. Angela's one of my best friends. And, you know, I learn about parenting when I'm near her. I learn about Jesus. I learn about being a godly woman by embracing that friendship. And Satan's the one who wants to drive these wedges and get us to pull away and pull back, either in inferiority or superiority.
But Jesus wants us to draw in and find fellowship and unity with one another. Did you feel that pressure as a mom? Absolutely. That you were watching everybody else's kids and your kids and going, How do mine measure up? Yeah. And we didn't even have social media when our kids were little.
If I were in this era, it would be much harder because there's a constant comparison on my phone. And I remember we started our church with two other couples. And I'll never forget going over to their house. One had three girls, we had three boys. And they were sitting on the floor, and they were just dialoguing with their little dolls and Barbies. And my boys were wrestling and hitting, and I just thought, What is wrong? And I automatically thought, It's my problem.
What am I doing wrong? Exactly. So, yes. And that's where I think we look at our kids, even as adults, and it's a reflection on us. When I was in my 20s, I was never thinking how I'm behaving as a reflection on my parents. It's the choices I was making. And yet, it's hard to let go as moms and dads and not think those kids are a walking, talking advertisement for how I did as a parent, right?
I mean, yeah, you think it's all by you. I remember walking over to our high school when my kids were playing football at the high school, and I was a coach, right? And this was summer training, so it's mostly running 400s, 800s. And so I got there a little late.
I had a meeting. I come walking up, and the guys had just finished a 400, and they were getting ready to take a break and then run another one. So I walk up, and there's this one kid on the track. He's so out of shape. He's laying down like he couldn't run the next thing, just laying there. Everybody's literally stepping around him.
And I was from a distance. I'm like, Look at that loser. Can you believe this kid?
I mean, how can that be? I get up closer. It's my son.
Oh, no. It's my son. I'm like, Get up. What are you doing? He's like, Oh, I can't, Dad. Get up.
And you know what? I never thought about him. That was the only thing about me. Look at me. I'm one of the coaches. My son should be one of the best. It was so bad.
I immediately went to comparison. And we do that, right? We do.
It's sad. As parents, I think one of our jobs is to help our kids understand who God created them to be. I mean, that's the work that we have to do in our own hearts, too. We talked about how we're very diverse. God is a God who loves diversity and variety.
He created everything to be so diverse, and our children, too. And so, helping them to understand, How has God made you different? Rather than comparing yourself with a mindset of measuring yourself against each other, how has God made you different with a heart to serve other people? What are the good works he prepared for you to walk in, not for somebody else to walk in? And don't look at somebody else and go, Well, they've got those good works, and I'm this. No. Do what God's created you to do. Be the person God made you to be.
Yeah. Last week, I had ice cream with my son, Cade. He's 16. And from the time he was a little boy, I've been telling him, Honey, you're a leader. God created you to be a leader. You walk into a room, or you walk onto the playground or the field, and others, they listen to you. You're just a natural leader.
And you can lead the wrong direction or the right direction. But we've encouraged him to use his gifts for leadership to draw others out. He has confidence like nobody's business, and sometimes that serves him well, other times not. But he was telling me last week that there's a girl in one of his classes who is just very withdrawn and quiet.
She doesn't talk to anybody. And he said he made it a personal challenge to kind of draw her out. And so, from the beginning of the year, he started sitting by her and just kind of, you know, what's your name, asking her questions. And he said, she is now like, her face lights up when he walks in, Hi, Cade, how are you doing? And he sees this as a success story.
He's learned how to draw her out. And I'm like, Honey, that is you using your gifts to serve other people, not trying to, you know, lift yourself up and be popular. And I mean, I'm sure he struggles with that too.
But God has created in him this special, unique gift, and God has given it to him in order to serve other people. Can you imagine, picture this, a community where people individually would get up, you know, and we all do this, most of us do this. We look in the mirror, usually to see how we look and present, to go. And, you know, some people spend a lot of time there.
I don't have any hair, so it's pretty quick. You know, but I said this the other day in a sermon at my church. I said, how many of you looked in the mirror this morning and literally said to yourself, masterpiece.
Wow. And everybody started laughing, which meant the whole congregation, this is universal. I didn't say that. I don't know if I've ever said that. But if we understood our identity in Christ, you are God's masterpiece created in Christ Jesus to do good works with.
He prepared beforehand, Ephesians 2, 10. We would have this sense, comparison's gone now. I'm looking in the mirror. And it's not arrogance, but it is a confidence that I am a child of God. And I can look in a mirror, even though the world would say I should do this or not, I could look in the mirror and have this sense of identity. And purpose. And purpose. And I could walk in a room and not be controlled by the room because of comparison, but I'd walk in the room to be able to control the room and influence the room for the kingdom. I'd be giving compliments, I'd be pointing people, I'd be the light. That all comes out of identity. Of no more comparison, I am going to live as a masterpiece. We're talking about whose approval are we living for? Right. Whose agenda are we living for? I remember Elizabeth Elliot saying that when she was dating her first husband, Jim, back when they were students at Wheaton, he said to her, I'm pursuing an AUG degree.
And she said, what's the AUG degree? And he said, that's approved unto God. Because that's the approval he cared for. The reason that we have comparison issues is because we want the approval of people, which is fleeting and fickle, and you may get it today, and they may trash you tomorrow. But if you're pursuing God's approval and his agenda, if one day you're going to hear him say, well done, good and faithful servant, that's the approval you should be looking for. And at that point, it's not how do I compare to this person, it's have I lived a life pleasing to the master? And that's how we reframe our thinking so that we're not controlled by the comparison, by Instagram, by social media, by what our friends are doing.
But we are directed in our thinking toward how can we live lives that are pleasing and glorifying to God? Shannon, thank you for pressing this issue and thinking clearly about it and helping us orient ourselves, and thanks for writing a book that'll help us go deeper on the subject. My pleasure.
Thanks for the conversation. I have got to believe that there are a lot of listeners who are feeling what we've been talking about and would be helped by Shannon's book. You can go to familylifetoday.com to order a copy, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY.
The title of the book, again, Comparison Girl, Lessons from Jesus on Me Free Living in a Measure Up World. Order online at familylifetoday.com or call to order 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY. Now, we've got something pretty important we need to talk with our regular listeners about. David Robbins, the president of Family Life, is here with me. And David, over the next couple of weeks, we're asking Family Life Today listeners to help us take advantage of a matching gift that has been made available to us here at Family Life. And honestly, given the events of the last few months, this matching gift is maybe more critical than any matching gift opportunity we've had since I've been at Family Life.
That's true. We've been blessed with several generous partners who come alongside us to give a matching gift of $345,000. And it is a matching gift that we need, need certainly more than the three years I've been here. And it's a time if we want to continue to press into the creativity and meeting people, what they're walking through right now. We know the last few months have been intense for people. We know that the ripple effects in months to come, whether it be economically or effects that have happened on people's families and in their personal world, we want to bring the help and hope to them. But we ourselves, we're a donor-supported ministry, and we are feeling the crunch from this.
And we need people who are able, and if this is on your heart, to keep getting the gospel to people and the biblical principles around marriage and family to people. If that's on your heart, we would invite you to give today. We want to ask you to be as generous as you can possibly be.
And let me just share with you, if you're able to help with a donation toward this matching gift, we'd love to send you a copy of Barbara Rainey's new book, which is called My Heart Ever His, about praying more effectively during difficult, challenging times. And if you're able to begin giving as a monthly legacy partner, not only will your first legacy partner gift be matched, but every gift you give over the next 12 months is going to be matched dollar for dollar, up to that total of $345,000. And we'll send you, as a new legacy partner, a certificate so you can attend an upcoming weekend to remember marriage getaway.
And yes, they are coming back. We're going to be gathering again for getaways in the future, so whether it's you or someone you know that you'd like to gift this to, the certificate for an upcoming getaway is our gift to you when you become a new monthly legacy partner here at Family Life. Please help us take full advantage of this matching gift opportunity during this very critical time.
Donate online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate, and thanks in advance for whatever you're able to do in supporting the ongoing work of Family Life Today. Now, tomorrow we want to talk about the best summer camp your grandkids can attend this summer. It's the one where you, the grandparents, are the camp directors. Susan Yates is going to join us tomorrow to talk about organizing a cousin's camp. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.
