There is something between the ages of about thirteen to twenty-five where our kids seem less inclined to listen to us. And that is when we need other people in their lives saying the same things, because I can say something to my teenage boys or girl, and and I might get an eye roll. Our youth director says the same thing, and he's the wisest person to ever walk the earth. And so, what does it look like to live in a community where it's not all the pressures on me to have this one really amazing large talk with my kids about these things, but where we're in a community where these kinds of conversations happen more naturally? Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.
I'm Dave Wilson, and I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday dot com. This is Family Life Today.
Okay, we got Jim and Angela Davis back in the studio today, talking about curious listening and how that applies to marriage and parenting and friendships too. I feel like they are. I mean, Jim's a pastor, Angela's a therapist. All I'm going to say is, if you do what we talk about today with your kids and your marriage, it will transform. Your home—that's a big promise, but it is true.
This is going to be a good day.
Well, I'm thinking of Genesis three and the fall. Think about that. God knows exactly what happened, what Adam and Eve had done, and yet He comes at them, and here's what He says: "Where are you? Who told you you were naked?" And what have you done? He already knows everything.
He's he's very. I wonder. I wonder where they are. Yeah, I wonder where they are.
So why do you think God said that? Why did He ask those three questions? It was revealing. I believe he did that for our benefit, not for his benefit. But he is asking questions to reveal more significantly the gravity of the situation, the wise behind their choices, and he uses questions.
Angela, like, how do you apply that with your kids? Do you guys ask a lot of questions now, more than you ever have? Try to. We want to. We want to.
All right. Can I? Can I be very vulnerable here? When we were first asked to come on the show, they said, "Would you come and give us wisdom on parenting teenagers and discipling them?" And Angela and I talked, and we said, you know, we feel like we're in a season where we're seeing shortcomings, and we're working on them. But we didn't feel like we could authentically come and do a whole episode on, you know, what you can learn from Jim and Angela on parenting and discipling teenagers.
So this is an area that we're leaning into.
Well, what are the shortcomings? You said you have them. Yeah, I mean, I think so. Your question was something about like asking our kids. Yeah, what kind of questions are you?
We're wanting to get better at that, and part of it is we, with four kids, two jobs, it's just it's tense. Like there's there's this tense feeling in our home, and we're trying to figure out how do we make our home a nice, calm place. And what you just said, probably eighty percent of parents are like resonating. Yeah, that's exactly what it is in our home. We had five year olds are like tense.
You want to talk about tense? Oh, two and three. Of hormones, the attitudes of teenagers. You know, sometimes you feel like you're walking on eggshells. You just want to have a normal conversation, but it's like, how do I even get in there?
And you love them. You think they're amazing, but it's just this navigation process. Yes, that's right. And and so you hear things, you know, like through the grapevine as parents. You're like, huh.
I really want to talk to my kid about that, and I've got to. You know, a judgment already, and I want to just tell them what I think that this was a bad idea, and that happened a couple weeks ago. And I wanted to come in just be like, "Hey, this was a bad idea," but instead, I just like tell me about this and that. I didn't even act like I knew anything; just coming in with questions. Hey, how did this go?
Tell me about that day and what were you doing? Just you know, it changed my tone. I wanted to come in with that mom judgment tone, and instead, I was like, "Okay, no, we're going to come in." Did they talk? Just with curious questions, yes. No, I didn't get everything, yeah, and that's okay.
Well, we had a son come in. I knew he wasn't doing well spiritually. Came in from prom, been out all night at a buddy's house, reeking of alcohol. And let me tell you, my mind went off any kind of track. Of yeah, I'm so curious.
Yes, I'm like you are so dead right now. I'm like. What in the world? You come in here reeking of alcohol, and this was not typical of him and our other kids too. And I just lost control.
Yes, and he's like, "I just need to go to bed." Like, bed? You think you're gonna go sleep this off? You're gonna be doing work all day. He had him in the right yard, and so he's digging holes because I'm having him plant bushes. He's digging these holes, and then.
And he's like, these tears are falling off his face into the ground, and that was one of those total remorse. And I should have gone to be with Jesus for a while and just to get myself back on track. Hundred percent. You have to regulate yourself, yes, so that you can talk. And so, as a parent listening, I don't know, it worked.
We literally sat in his church yesterday and listened to him preach. I mean, he grew up obviously, but I had to apologize. I had to apologize later for my reactionary response to the situation, and and an apology is powerful. It is that's not to be dismissed. But do you remember?
I don't know if you've read for parents only. Johnsey Feldhuns, I know of it, but says for men only, for women only, and she has this little gem. Again, it's a smaller book, and it's really subtitle. I don't know what it would be, but it's something about raising teenagers. And I'll never forget one.
And again, she interviews all these teenagers, all based on research. She's a Harvard trained researcher, and says, "Parents, here's what you need to know." Curiously, listen to them all. Yeah, exactly. That's what she did. She says in the book, like.
Chapter number one complaint of teenagers about their parents is guess what they don't listen they don't listen so why do you think teenagers say that you think it's really true they're people with the same core needs that that we have to be seen to be soothed to be safe and secure that's the one I always forget hey if we can learn it in one day you should be able to know this married to the woman that's fair and but for us one of the things that More recently, I've talked about the defensive side of parenting and the offensive side. There are times kid comes home, been drinking alcohol, whatever. Like, there's that's some defensive parenting, and not to say curious listening can't happen. But you also have boundaries that we need to and consequences, and that's that's good, right, and normal. But we've been thinking through not only how can our house be less tense at times, but how can we create spaces for individual times where we can listen.
So. Like you know, since my heart attack, I walk more. I have this routine of walking in the beginning of the day, the end of the day, whatever. And my daughter likes to walk with me, and so and I love that. And I've really intentionally thought this is not going to be advice time.
If she doesn't ask for it, I am only listening. I am only asking questions, and that that's been a really sweet kind of time for that. With my eighteen year old, we've been more recently started having weekly lunches. He can leave his school as a senior. I'll take him out to a lunch he enjoys, and I try to do the same thing.
Car time, you know, we don't drive our kids around as much anymore. But when we get to, you know, that can feel like a pain, and it is in many ways. But the less I'm driving my kids, the more I miss it because we have that built in time. To ask questions, and then I think one of the biggest times is the the wee hours of the night. Yeah, when they open up and they start wanting to talk, we have to be willing to stay up for that.
Yeah, are you are you saying this to Dave and Anne, or are you saying this to me? Yeah, there's there's really only one of us that does that, but that's okay. You've got your other built-in places. Yeah, Dave and I are night people, so that was easier for us. But if you're a morning person, always had food on the counter, right?
Like if there's food, we can sit. They sit and then. They'll eat and then they'll just naturally talk. That's a good. That's really good.
Yeah, I'm gonna add that to my routine because I don't add the food now. It's there and they probably go get it, but just to have it out, put the trough out. They'll just sit there and they're friends too. They'll sit and just talk.
So true. But I love Jim that you have like okay, so I'm not a night person, but you have put that in your schedule like that walking piece. If my dad would have walked with me and just asked me questions, and he did, my dad ended up taking me out to lunch for the first time. I was 16 years old. I was the youngest of four.
Never really asked me anything in my life, and the only reason he took me out was because my mom was taking my her brother to chemo, and I remember. We're done eating. It's just so awkward. Like, let's just finish. I'm 16.
I don't know my dad, and he orders another cup of coffee. I'm like, and then he's like, let's get dessert, which my mom would never do.
So we sat there eating this cake, and he started asking me questions. One of the sweetest things that I can ever remember is him just wanting to know about me, and so for our kids, for our parents to be curious. That's still making you cry right now. Totally is what a like core emotional moment for you. And he would do that then.
Did you see how she listened? She's a good counselor. Wow, she's curious. Good, but I think that's really important for us as parents just to not have the agenda. And you guys, it gets worse when they get to be adults and they're married.
You have so many things you could tell them how their lives could be amazing. Yeah, if they would only listen to you. Sure. And yet, what they're wanting is just to talk and say, "Here is what's going on for us to ask those questions." Yeah, really ask a lot of. I mean, we're adult to adult now.
Our kids are younger. Our oldest is in his forties. Just turned forty. Wow, he got to be kidding me. You guys don't look like you are forty.
I don't know, man. We feel it, but I mean, he, all of them, they just. They love it when we ask questions. You know, it's interesting. What do you do today?
What's going on with your job? What? Anything? It's just really interesting. They they're not interested in hearing us talk anymore.
Yeah, our kids like grow and their needs always change, but that need does not change. It's one of the few things. Hey, let me ask you this about teenagers. Again, one of the things I and maybe it's because I was afraid to ask hard questions, but one of the things I found that worked with my boys. Is if I wanted to dive into something pretty touchy, sensitive, girls, I don't know, sexual temptation, I found I could do it with a couple buddies rather than just my one son.
There was a couple guys over at at midnight, right? And I know them. They're in our church. They're good guys. I'd say, hey, Tim and CJ, hey.
So how hard of a struggle is porn these days? They were more apt to talk because they were like two on one or three on one. I do feel like we have. I'm trying to be very general because these are kids, and I don't want anybody to be able to identify. There are certain kids we've done better jobs with than others.
Let me. That's as most specific as I can be. It's kind of like. All of the above. It's accumulation.
It's not one big talk. Yeah, it's accumulation. And I say that in areas that I feel like I've done that well, and I'm hearing that in certain areas that I don't feel like I've done as good a job. But it's accumulation of all these talks, smaller things, maybe some larger ones. Certainly when things come up, having conversations about it.
So I was listening to. An atheist psychologist, and this atheist psychologist said, because of evolution, our kids are wired to leave the home, and because of that, they don't want to listen to their parents between the ages of about thirteen and twenty-five, and that's why you need other people saying the same things to them. And I thought, huh, okay, I disagree with how you got there, but I really agree with where you got. I think that's true. And so I would just say, hey, God's design is that kids leave.
The home that design has been marred by sin, and there is something between the ages of about thirteen to twenty-five where our kids seem less inclined to listen to us, and that is when we need other people in their lives saying the same things. Because I can say something to my teenage boys or girl, and and I might get an eye roll. Our youth director says the same thing, and he's the wisest person to ever walk the earth. And so, what does it look like to live in a community where it's not all? All the pressures on me to have this one really amazing large talk with my kids about these things, but where we're in a community where these kinds of conversations happen more naturally—that's really good.
And it's true; it's hard to be as curious when it's an emotional topic. Yeah, and so we we're very intentional about surrounding our kids with other people that we're saying the same thing, and it just drove us crazy. We'd go to bed and like. He said the same thing for the last four years, right? I know.
But they finally heard it, and who cares? Yeah, who cares? How? Yes. Yep.
We've traveled around the world, and I'm always amazed that families around the world bring incredible joy and impact. But they also really struggle with the same issues. Yeah, I mean it's amazing they all have the same issues. The wife doesn't like her husband. Husband doesn't like his wife.
They can't resolve conflict. You name it. They don't know how really to make Jesus the center of their marriage. And it's the same things we struggle with. Exactly.
But families make a difference. In the world, like a family centered on Jesus impacts everyone. That's why we do what we do every single day. We're trying to help marriages and families here, there, around the world, find Jesus as the center of their marriage and find hope, and then not just see their marriage transform, but transform their neighborhood. And let me invite you to join us in this mission.
What's that mean? Pray for us. We need your prayers. But also, I don't know if you know this, but. This ministry is a donor-supported ministry.
In other words, people give financially to make this happen, and we would love to have you as a partner because we can't exist without you. Without monthly partners reaching families for Jesus, so if you'd like to join, here's all you need to do: go to familylife.today.com, click on the donate button right there, and man, wouldn't it be a joy to be a partner with you? You can help change the world. Hey, I want to read something you put in your book proposal. Curious listening is marked by five practices.
Yeah, we've talked about a couple, but non-judgment, open-mindedness, patience, empathy, and presence. Yeah, any one of those you want to hit. I've curated those from other sources. We didn't create these things, but we need to come up with a better acronym. But right now, it's Nope P.
I can't remember it.
So it's non-judgmental. It's not that we don't have views, but we're we're suspending our judgments just to understand the person. You asked for one, but I might just walk through real quick. Non-judgmental, open-ended questions. We talked about this.
Not yes or no questions, but questions that are going to give us a little more insight. We're patient. We're okay with awkward silences. We're trying to draw them out. We're trying to create an atmosphere without distractions.
Well, that's actually present. We're not getting defensive when we're patient. We're not getting defensive when we're patient. We're not thinking to respond when we're patient. But then empathy is an interesting one because there are.
I'm not looking to throw a match on a. Do it! I want fire. Throw a match on that.
So, in in certain circles, empathy is is being painted as a bad thing. I don't know how much you all have observed this, but empathy—it's like no, we can't be empathetic because then we're going to feel what they feel and be led astray. They would say things. We need to be courageous. We need to be bold.
Well, it's a it's a yes and for all of these things, but we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And you know, in Hebrews, when the author of Hebrews says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize." With our weaknesses, that word "sympathize" literally in Greek means "suffer with." Wow, that's what empathy is. We're suffering with something, somebody. We're trying to feel what they feel.
So empathy is such an important part of it. And then I feel like present. This is what you do every day.
Well, let me say too. I think that's what Jesus did display. That empathy piece—he wasn't condoning their sin, but he was still empathetic with what they were going through. And I think it's both. It's very important, and I think it's really important for our kids to see that because if we're not empathetic, I think our kids can see us as just being judgmental.
Yes, especially teenagers. Yeah.
So both have to be on display, and we have to know. I love again back to that quote: "You can't be curious and critical at the same time." I think just being aware, which one am I? There's no half and half. There's no sixty forty. Where am I right now?
And the other thing that I've done, and this this works in the tense moments, and it works when I'm just tired of hearing somebody talk. You know, like I might be somebody outside the family, and we have those moments. But I ask myself, all right, Jim, what would it look like to be curious right now? And it sounds so simple, but that one question it kind of reshapes my mind, gives me new questions, and then I have this desire to be empathetic that I, yeah, that I didn't have. I like that.
And then what about the last one? Oh, being present.
Well, I think it's just giving someone your full attention. Like they have your face, your facial expressions are mirroring them. That makes you. Ask good questions, and that makes the person feel like you're present with them. You're not looking at your phone, or you know, glancing over here or there.
Like you actually have my 100% undivided attention, and that goes so far these days because our attention spans are just so short now with our phones, right? To be locked in and really give you my eye contact, it's it's a rare thing. Even if you are a good multitasker, yes. Even if you are, as women, I feel like we think we can do we can be present, you know, and still be cooking or. Doing whatever, but well, it's interesting.
We just, I think we told you, we just did a marriage. We call them summits at our church, and we did three talks.
So the first talk is on cell phones and marriage. Like. We'll do this one quick, and then we'll get to the other two. Because the third one was was on God's plan for sex, and then identity and how we try to find our identity from our spouse, not from God. After the conference, I was roaming around the lobby, and there's hundreds of couples, and I talked to like four or five couples.
And I'm curious, listening. Hey, hey, what'd you think? Which session do you like the best? Every person I talked to said cell phones. Yeah.
Cell phones are like we are so distracted. You said whatever you pay your attention to, you are attracted to. I am not attracted to my spouse because my attention is on this little device. That is a thing. Yes, you know Anne calls this my my other girlfriend.
Oh, you're you're looking at your other girlfriend right now. You know, like a text or whatever. With all of that, but that presence. Think about that with our kids. Yeah, you ever seen Simon Sinek's little thing about this?
He has a little I feel like I have, but I can't. He just basically says we have a real issue with this. If you have this in your hand, you are saying to anybody you are with, you are not the most important person. Be. He even says this: if you put it on the table.
Even turned over at lunch. You have just said to your friend, "You don't matter." He goes, "Get rid of the phone." Yeah, this is a guy saying you need spaces in your life where you're present in somebody's life, and the phone is not even near you.
Well, that's what counseling is, right? Like we go in a room and we have somebody's undivided attention, and they're just focused on me asking me questions. Good. Yeah, it feels really good. We we need those spaces outside of a counseling room.
Yeah, we need people in our lives who are doing that. One thing that I've started to really realize is the gift that you're giving somebody. Like what a gift it is just to listen, and and this goes into marriage, marriage, parenting, look at the occupation, posture, everything. Think about the billions of dollars that are spent in America in the therapy realm. And 2015, we joined the Family Life Speaker Team, and I started in 2016 asking anytime I'd meet a mental health specialist, I'd ask him this question.
If everybody, all your clients, had somebody in their life that loved them, listened well, and and asked good questions, how many of those people would still be your clients? And in the general therapy range, I'm not. There's certain psychiatrists and things that would be different, but general therapy, I got somewhere between zero and twenty percent of those people would still be my clients because they don't have that in their life. I mean, would you say this? I don't know what percentage you would come up with, but is I'd have to think about that resonates with you for sure, and and I just made me realize in my marriage, in my with my kids, as a pastor.
But let's even stay with. Spouse and kids. This is such an unbelievable gift that we can give people. That unfortunately, I need to remind myself so often. Yeah, that it is a gift, and that I do want to give it to them.
But when it goes well, and there's lots of times in our home that it doesn't. But when it goes well, it's really beautiful. My best friend and I used to walk four to five times a week. We'd go for about four miles. They still would.
She moved. We talked the entire time. I felt. I'd be driving down the road and look at him, like. But it was amazing of how healing that was, and I felt like this was incredible.
And then we'd pray at the end of that walk. And you're right, Angela. Like I think that that filled me up, and Jim. Like I'm not sure, like. I would need to see a counselor after that because it was therapy.
Yeah, therapy for my soul, my well-being, all of it. I mean, I'll end with this. Think about this: if our homes felt like for our spouse and our kids, this is the one place on the planet I feel seen, soothed, safe, and secure. Yes. I mean, when you said that, I just thought, what do they feel when they drive in the driveway?
They should feel like. Yeah, I'm sitting here. They're gonna ask me questions. The TV's not gonna be on the whole time. You know, it's like and phones are gonna be put away.
I'm gonna be seen. I'm gonna feel like I am valuable here, right? They're not going to come home and look necessarily. How quickly can they leave to go somebody else's house? And and maybe, and this is kind of a metric we may or may not be watching.
They're going to begin to invite their friends into that space. Yeah, yeah, good stuff.
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