I know for me, the game changer was the parable of the unforgiving servant. It kind of seems like he just goes and runs into somebody who owes him a lesser debt. There's this phrase, "fellow servant," that Jesus uses when he tells the parable. And for me, the Lord was like, "Hey, your dad is a sinner in need of of grace. He is your fellow servant.
He is living in the reality of a broken and fallen world, right alongside you." Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson, and I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Every single person that's listening to this has dealt with this and needs to deal with it.
What is this? I see this book and I'm like, we're gonna talk about offense today. I'm a quarterback. I love offense. Let's talk about football and offense.
Living beyond offense. How about offense? Oh, because you play football, it's all he can think about. Everything comes back to football.
So, oh, I get it. Living beyond offense. Yeah, yeah. Doing the hard work of forgiveness, God's way. Yana Connor is with us.
Yeah. Have you ever been introduced talking about football? I don't think so. I haven't. This is it.
But I'm excited. But we're not talking about all. That's why I said that's why I tried to weave us back into forgiveness. Offense is fun to talk about. Offense is not fun.
So define it. How would you define offense? Actually, quote one pastor John Brever when he talks about you know there are two kinds of offended people. There are people who have been offended, and then there are people who think that they have been offended. We will all suffer the reality of offense because we live in a broken and fallen world.
But there are times when we are offended by something that someone did, and it's not necessarily sinful. And so, in the book, I talk about how offense needs to. Find its definition in the commandments of scripture, right? And so, did this person actually sin against me, or did they just like was it a failure to communicate? You know, is this a matter of sin, or is this actually a matter of like their humanity and their weakness?
And so, there are times where I'm in relationship with people, and I'm offended because they're not showing up in my life in the ways in which I want them to. They're not meeting my, be it reasonable or unreasonable. You know expectations, and so then I walk away feeling offended, and maybe come to them and confront them about how they're not showing up in my life in the way that I want them to. But they haven't actually done anything sinful. And that person can be like, "What's your problem?
what What are you talking?" This sounds like our marriage. This has happened many times, both ways. Every single person has dealt with that. But I like that distinction too. It may not even be sin.
So would you? Agree with this statement because I've said this in a sermon. I should have pulled up my notes. I am hoping I say exactly what I said, but I think I said it this way: offense is normal, offended is a choice. Is that true?
I think so. I think there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, offense is going to happen. Offense is going to happen, but how you respond to it, sort of how you internalize what that person did, even if what they did was sinful, you know, how you internalize it, that's going to impact sort of maybe the degree to which you are offended. And so, I'm often asking the Lord to increase my capacity to be patient, to increase my capacity to to be other centered, to to be humble, so that in the event that I am offended.
I'm not so impacted by it that I'm not able to still obey Jesus's command to be gracious, to be loving, and to to forgive. And so, I do think we have a choice in that. But I do wonder if we can take that mantra or that principle to the extreme, to the point where we try to become undefendable, and in doing so, then we negate the reality of like the pain that's caused. And so, it's kind of like we just turn. Turn it off.
Because we're like, well, I'm not going to be offended by anybody. You know, I can't be touched. In that sense, we're probably closing ourselves off from like real, real relationships.
Now, I did that. I was going to say, and it feels like denial in a way. Yeah. And so you stuff it, yeah. Then Dave, you totally did.
Yeah, I did that. I mean, I'm I'm going to ask you if you read a book on offense, you must have had a situation in life. I did. My dad and divorce and alcohol and adultery and all. When I was a little boy.
But I walked into marriage, and even Ann said, "You know, I think you need to forgive your dad." I am like, "Oh, I am good." It was all denial. I was hurt. I was offended. I carried it for thirty some years, and I never really looked at it and said, "Okay, I need to." I take. I need to take a journey, and forgiveness for me was a journey.
So, what's your story? I'm guessing there's a story there. There is a story there. The first line in the book is, "My dad was my first teacher in forgiveness," and my biological father. He was an alcoholic, and when he was sober, he was present, and he was really, really great.
That and when he wasn't sober, he was absent, and I didn't know why he wasn't there. It was very, very confusing, and so and then I remember there was a stint where he was sober, but then he like he got a new family, right?
So he got married, he had a another child, and that was it. Was just really painful. Like I felt really, really replaced by this new woman and by this new child that he had. And then I remember like in college, like coming to faith in. Christ and knowing pretty quickly that I one of the things I needed to do was forgive my dad.
You knew it. I knew it. I was like, I I've been I grew up in church, so I kind of know you know what what what Christians are supposed to do, but it was a an eleven year journey for me, and I think the first part of it was me acknowledging the pain, like acknowledging what his absence meant for me, how it was impacting my life, how it was. Created in me this bitterness and this distrust. And so I had to really like sit with that for a while.
But because I was a young Christian and also a zealous one, I was still like trying to forgive. And so I was like, "Well, maybe forgiveness means like I send him a Father's Day card. I call him at Christmas. I remember I like was in the the hardware store trying to find like a a tool set to buy buy for him, and all these things. But it was just me trying to perform forgiveness.
How old were you then? I was in my twenties. I was in my early twenties. I was actually here in Orlando, Florida, doing ministry here. But you're trying to be this obedient young woman who's following Jesus.
You know that you're supposed to forgive, so you're working at it. I'm working at it, but but it's not coming together.
So then, fast forward. I'm in seminary. I'm studying with a friend, and she starts asking me questions about my dad. I start to share about how I'm struggling to forgive, and she was like, "Well, it seems like you've never really had a conversation with your dad. Never that you've never really dealt with, like the pain that you felt." And so she challenges me to go home and have a conversation.
Where's my dad? Was it? How did you feel about that? I was mad because we were just there to study. I was like, I'm here to study.
Like, I'm not here to talk about my dad. I didn't ask for your accountability. I didn't ask for your discipline. You're offended by her? Oh, I'm so offended by her.
What's crazy is she's actually the reason why this book even exists. Um, she was the one to reach out to me from Harvest House and was like, "Hey, let's write a book together." And so she's a part of even like my forgiveness story. But I go home. Home, and I am supposed to be with my dad. My dad cancels on me because he had a job come up, and he had to take it.
And my friend was like, "Well, did you reschedule?" And I was like, "Well, no, I didn't reschedule." He didn't reschedule. He didn't ask if we could reschedule. And no kid. She was like, "Call your dad, reschedule." I like this girl. I know, Lindsay.
She's a good friend. She's a good friend. I go and I have the conversation with my dad, and for the first time, I tell him how he hurt me.
Okay, I want to hear the conversation. What did it sound like? It sounded like well, I actually started with an apology because he was trying. He he was in a season where he was sober. And where he was trying to build a relationship with me, he was trying to get to know me.
He was calling more, and I was just like, I think at that point I was in my thirties. I was like, I don't need you. Like that's just kind of where I was at. I have learned how to live without you, and I don't actually need you in my life. And so I had really stiff armed all of his efforts to to reconcile.
And so I apologized to him for that, and just said like, Hey, that's not in step with the ways of Jesus. That's not the kind of person I want to be, or how I want to treat you.
So please forgive me for that. But then I began to share like the pain of like him just not being there and. He's weeping, as you're telling him. He's literally weeping, and then what did that for you? What was that like for you?
Were you surprised? I was surprised because he was a very jovial kind of guy. He never acknowledged sort of his in and out. In my life, he's abandoned me. He'd never, he'd never confess those things, or even seem to be bothered by those things.
It was like when he would see me, it would just be kind of like that wasn't a big deal. And so to have him there to see him weeping, and my dad, he's like he's massive. He's a big guy, you know. He's a mechanic. Yeah, he's bald head, like just you know goatee.
And so just to to see him weep like that was really overwhelming and. Brought about my own tears, but then he began to express that he was sorry and that he regrets a lot of the decisions that he had made in his life, and so it helped me to see his humanity, to see his pain. And he said something to the effect like, "I've done a lot of bad things in my life," and it was just like, "I don't know what those things you don't even know him are." But he said, "I've asked God to forgive me," and I was like, "Wait." Wait a second, you know, and so there we were, just sharing that that moment together, and then we hugged it out. He gave me a big kiss on my cheek, and it was really, it was really sweet. And then it was like, okay, now how do we, how do we do this?
How do we go on from there? Move forward, you know, relationally. And it was awkward, and it was weird, and it was frustrating, and it was hard. But I got my dad back, and for me, it was just a, it was a gift. That we were in a position to write a different kind of ending to our story, but it was really my friend who helped get me get me there.
It was sermons that helped get me there. It was wrestling with K author studies on forgiveness. You know that that helped get me there. But it was it was a really really long journey, and I think most of it was because I didn't actually know what forgiveness was. You know, I'd heard a lot of really good sermons about it.
I would be convicted. I would be inspired, but I didn't know how to actually like do it. Like, what does it look like? What does it feel like? And that's what I'm really trying to answer in this book.
It's not not just why do we forgive, but like actually, how do we do it? And how do we have assurance that we've obeyed Jesus's command to forgive? You know, I'm almost positive that our listeners have no idea how important they are to our program. I think you're right. Our prayer partners, and especially our financial partners—people who donate financially to Family Life Today—make this program actually happen.
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For your friend to say, "Uh uh, you need to call your dad now. You went to see him.
Now you need to call him and make sure you get." But look at, I watch your face as you're sharing that story. I wonder what it would have felt like for you had you never done that. Who would you be had you never had that conversation? Even spiritually, yeah. The sad part of the story is that my dad unexpectedly died.
Like. Two months after we had that conversation, two months, his appendix ruptured, and then he had a pulmonary embolism, and I think his body had just been through way, way too much, and it wasn't able to sustain that surgery. I will say, like, that was a very, very confusing time for me because it was like, God, why would you give me my dad back, and then you take him away? You know, and because I'm grieving, that's all I can see. I can't see the man.
God, thank you. That we were able to have that conversation before he passed, right? If I hadn't listened to my friend, I would have completely missed that opportunity to have that conversation with my dad. And you're walking around with a whole different. Oh yeah, regret, guilt, maybe.
I mean, you're sad and confused, but at least you had something a lot of people never, never, yeah, never do. Yeah, and so I'm I'm really grateful to that friend. I'm really grateful that I was able to have that conversation with my dad before he passed, and that we were able to write a different ending, you know, to our story. My biggest regret is that I didn't go fishing with him, you know, and maybe. Maybe one of my biggest regrets is that I wasn't able to get to a place of forgiving him sooner.
And while I know, like. Your spiritual journey is what it is, and you can only be where you are. And I find great comfort in what Paul says in Philippians. You know, you can only live up to what you've obtained. You know, there's still like this semblance of regret.
Like, man, I wish I would have been able to get there sooner. You know, so that one, I would have been able to get to know my dad more, and also so that he could have shared fishing with me, which was something that he really loved. Yeah, it's so sad, but yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking, oh. If I would have taken that journey, you were in your twenties.
Yeah, I didn't take it till my thirties, and my friend told me to do it too. Her, she was the one. I can see the effects of not forgiving. Oh, I was walking around with bitterness and anger that was coming out in my home and with my sons. That I couldn't see.
That I could. I didn't know the cord was connected right there. And there are other things, but that was the big, the big one. And so I had to go on a journey. And I sort of thought.
I mean, I don't know if you had this thought, but I, you know, I'm preaching and I'm preaching on forgiveness at different times through the years. And every time I wrote a sermon on forgiveness, I was like, I haven't done this yet, you know. But I'd sort of bury it and go. Lead the congregation and say you need to do this. Realizing I'm not sure I've done this, and then I realize I got to do this.
And I actually thought, okay, I'll do it next weekend. You know, I thought it'd be a quick thing. Ephesians four thirty two, forgive as you've been forgiven. I know this stuff. I've taught it.
I know the Word of God, and that's I underestimated. Whoa, for me, it was about a five year journey. Yeah, you know, it's interesting when you said your journey. I picked up a book by Lewis Smeez. I don't know if you ever saw that one, but he's he's with the Lord now.
But it was written. Boy in the sixties, probably called "Forgive and Forget" healing the hurts we don't deserve, and he walks you through a four step process, which you literally went through that I had to. He says you've got to acknowledge the hurt. I turned them into H's. I don't know if he had it that way, but I'm a preacher, so you know, it's like that was the first thing.
Is I kept denying that I was hurt. I was like, no, I really was, and I'm not blaming my dad, but I am. You said the same thing. You had to go through when you were saying, I'm like. There is the H.
The second one was, I think, I call it hate, but he just said, "There is a displeasure that you feel toward that person that you got to acknowledge," and you call it hate or whatever. But it's like, and Anne said to me, "Do you realize when your dad calls?" You don't really talk to him. You are like, yeah, okay, bye. Why are you shaking your head about that? Oh no, that's totally me.
Yeah, totally me. I mean, when you are hurt, yeah, you carry that. You disengage. Yeah. Oh yeah, I was a master at getting off the phone.
Yeah, you know. Yeah. So I think we would talk about the weather. We would talk about my car, and then he would try to maybe get to something personal, and then I would, I, I don't know how I would do it, but I recently did it to like when I was on the phone with somebody else that I was. Like walking through something difficult with, and I was like, man, that's just that's just in there, you know, this ability to get off the phone with ease.
But every time he would call, I would roll my eyes, I would huff and puff, yes, and and it was like it's just a phone call, but it it would really just my anger would immediately rise just at seeing his name on the phone. Wow, yeah, yeah, and then you have to go through this healing journey. That's the third step, and for me, again, it was. It takes a while. Yeah, it does.
And I do think there is this reality that you do have to heal a little bit. Yeah, you know, in order to be in a place to forgive, so that.
Some of that anger sort of gets gets released.
Some of that pain, that hurt, and and maybe even you're able to see it a little bit differently. I know for me, the game changer was the parable of the unforgiving servant. There's this phrase, "fellow servant," that Jesus uses when he tells the parable of how this servant he has this massive debt, and then he's forgiven of this massive debt, and then he goes and finds. It kind of seems like he just goes and runs into.
Somebody who owes him a lesser debt, and it refers to this person as their his fellow servant. And for me, the Lord was like, "Hey, your dad lives in a broken and fallen world too. Your dad is a sinner in need of of grace. He is your fellow servant. He is living in the reality of a broken and fallen world right alongside you, and that just kind of helped." Open up some compassion.
What's that do for you to have those thoughts? As the word just kind of, yeah, God used the Holy Spirit through His word. Yeah, I only saw my dad through the worst things he ever did. You know, I forgot about the days that he showed up. I forgot about the day that he was the first person at the hospital after I was in a car wreck.
I forgot about how when he was sober and I had a a big. Like sleepover, you know, at his house. Like all I saw were the days that he didn't show up, and so I just went all bad on him, and I couldn't see the duality of of the good and the bad, and I couldn't see his humanity, and so I think that's a part of the process too that really helps you to open up. I had parents that were married seventy years, and they had some great things about them, and also not so great, which is every single family. There's some great things, but there's some broken things.
Too, they weren't believers, and I remember in my twenties going through a phase where all I saw was the brokenness. All I saw was, well, that messed me up.
Well, that's why I'm like this, because I'm seeing my insecurities in my twenties, and I'm thinking, where did this come from? And I'm pointing to my parents, like, oh, it's you guys. You guys did this to me. And I remember talking about this with a group of women. I said, I feel like my twenties.
It's like when you take bacon grease and you pour it into, like, let's say. Glass, and at first it's all mixed up.
So I felt like that's growing up years is all mixed. Like there's good, there's bad, and then in my twenties it's like the fat rose to the top that I couldn't see underneath that white fat, the solid. I couldn't see the good underneath it.
So good, and then as you get older. And for me, it was walking with God. It was seeing their imperfections, of course. And look at me; I am just, you know, I am right there with you. And now having kids, they got a lot of fat at the top of that chart that they have to kind of remember, like, oh, there were some good things too.
Yeah. So I think that that's really normal and healthy. But I think that's happening more today. I am hearing of a lot of. Kids that have no relationship anymore with their parents.
Have you heard of that? Yeah, I have. I have, and you probably get it. I get it, and I don't get it. Like, I understand that people have been through really horrific things with their parents, and if your parent was abusive, be it verbally, physically, spiritually, and they're still unrepentant, I think that is warranted, right?
But for boundaries, yeah, for boundaries and those kinds of things, and also to hold them accountable for for what they did. But I think when it's like your parent annoys you or. Maybe they have, you know, just unhealth in them that they're still working out of, and it's not necessarily abusive. It just, it just takes a little bit more effort to communicate. I'm not saying that those aren't real frustrations.
I'm just asking the question of like, is that cause for?
Sort of going no contact with your parents. I'm with you. Um, me and my mom, we've we've been on a journey. If I was in my 20s, like in this year, yeah, maybe I would probably you know do that. But it wouldn't have been because she was a bad mom.
It would just would have been because like our relationship was just really difficult. And I look now like 20 years later, and me and my mom have a really great relationship. You know, and I think that's really the thing. Like I don't know if we're giving as children. Just expect your parents to be perfect, but I don't know if we give our parents like space to fail and space to grow.
Yeah. But if I had just cut the relationship off at twenty, I wouldn't have been able to to see that. And so I know that these are really complex things. No one comes to a decision to go no no contact with their parent with great ease. But I am asking the question: Are your decisions in step with the ways of Jesus?
Are you acknowledging your parents' humanity? Are you giving your parents Space to fail and grow, and are you removing yourself from the relationship because it's difficult? My generation, we're not that resilient. Like we're like when it comes to communicating, when it comes to sort of like navigating our emotional world, like we're just not as as resilient. And I understand that that is us trying to not repeat the sort of failures of our parents or you know previous generations, and we want to be more self.
And we would have more healthy, healthier relationships, but sometimes that stuff requires work. Um and it means persevering through through some things and so so those are the things that bring me concern but I know that it's a really complex um situation and it's it's one that always brings up grief for me when someone says that they're not in relationship with their parent anymore or their kid you know disown them it's so so painful but I love that you said that you've had to work through with both your mom and your dad and I think a lot of us do but I love that you've. The work in.
Okay, this has been a great start. We're talking about some heavy, yeah, stuff, but so real and practical. Forgiveness again. The book is called "Living Beyond Defens" by Yana Connor, and you can get it at familylifetoday dot com. Just click on the link in the show notes, and guess what?
We're not done. Yana's gonna be back with us tomorrow, so we'll see you then. We want to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns. Praise reports or whatever.
All you have to do is go to speakpipe. dot com slash family life today. Again, that's speakpipe. dot com slash family life today, or get the link in the show notes. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry.
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