This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. And we're just grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. And to learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Hi. Christianity is not constructed in such a way that we simply go out into the wilderness and grow because it's just us and God.
We're not meant to walk alone. We're not meant to grow alone, so we grow in community. God gives us the church. He gives us each other. But it's not just that we have relationships.
It's that growth happens. in community. That can begin into home. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.
And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. All right, we've got Dave Harvey with us talking about a book. Dave, how many years ago did you write When Sinners Say I Do? Oh, I think it was released in 2007.
Oh, my. I'm bad at math. You think you can remember what you said?
Well, and you also wrote, I still do, growing closer and stronger through life-defining moments. That's right.
So we've just got a marriage expert on our hands.
Well, I feel like less of an expert with the passing of every year, but it's something that I love. I'm very grateful to God for Kim. We've been married for 43 years, and it's something that I have the privilege of teaching on regularly and doing seminars, conferences, and events, and seeing other people helped by the stuff that's helped Kim and I brings great joy to me. That's fun. Yeah, and it's, I mean, this is a reality check because you open both books.
You have this concept of we bring luggage into our marriage. And even at my church, I remember one time trying to talk about this.
So we did a mock little drama skit where we had a husband and wife come up like they were getting married. It was bride and groom. It was their wedding day. It was our son, actually, and his wife. Yeah, and beside them, we had all these bags, you know.
And we just wanted the audience to go, you don't see these bags, but we're all bringing stuff. We bring it. And then you get married and you're like, what is that? And they're like, this is who I am. What do you mean?
So you say that as well in the very beginning, but you say one of the bags, if not all the bags, are sin.
So explain that.
Well, I mean, for me, that was like a huge. epiphany. Within marriage. I remember one of the first conflicts that we had. You know, I don't remember all the specifics.
Kim probably does.
Well, what she will say, like, I just remember making these stunningly remarkable insights into Kim's behavior. I bet that went well. My logic was utterly impeccable. And because Kim was saying some stuff that was inaccurate, and my sense of justice was being violated. And so, in an attempt to kind of skillfully identify the essence of the problem, and this is still so embarrassing, but I said this very matter-of-factly, not in a threatening way.
I just said, dear, please. Stop talking. I said, you're making me angry and you're making me sin. And the thing is, it made perfect sense to me because that's where I was. You know, prior to marriage, I was growing daily more Christ-like.
I mean, it was amazing. I was an amazing specimen on earth, and nobody else noticed, but I was really amazed at myself because to me, Sin was becoming a thing of the past. You know, it was certainly an issue before I was converted. It's part of my story before I was converted. But now I was a Christian, and behold, the old has passed away, the new has come, and sin was this old school thing.
And then I got married. to somebody who had sin issues, clearly. And my hopes for the sinless life were like being flushed on the toilet. She's wrecking you. She was wrecking you.
And what happens, that is so difficult because We feel like, hey, I'm feeling pretty good. Then we get married and we're seeing all these, we're so triggered. We're seeing all these new things. And then we have kids. Wait, what?
Even worse. I know. Yeah. Join the party. But the sin nature in us makes us think it's them.
They're the reason I'm acting the way I am. It wasn't there before. Yeah. And they're bringing the sin luggage in, but not me. And if they have it, if I have it, it's a little tiny tote bag and they've got a U-Haul truck.
Wait, how did Kim respond to your response? I mean, to your what you said to her. I think, you know, the whole thing got elevated. I took it to a whole new level, which I think I did that regularly. The thing is, Paul makes the statement in 1 Timothy.
He says that the saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save this category of beings, sinners. And then he personalizes it and he says, of whom I am. Mm-hmm. The foremost. The thing about that statement is that Paul, he's on the back end of his life.
You know, this is a statement of a mature, seasoned, godly, powerful witness for Jesus Christ. And yet, somehow, his godliness led him into a deeper grasp of his sinfulness. And his sinfulness. Sparked a fresh gratitude to the Savior for what he had done for him.
So to say, I am the worst of sinners for Paul was actually a sign of maturity. Yeah. It was a sign of health and growth. Do you think that is the truth? I believe that the deeper we are in Christ, the more mature we are under Christ, the more wicked we see we are.
Yes. I don't know if you've ever seen Jack Miller's diagram. There's like a sideways vector of V, and so there's a line that goes up to it.
So you imagine two lines, one going up, one going down. He says, right here, you know, is conversion. And if you look at the cross right here, the cross connects this line going up, the line going down. The line going up is the holiness of God, the goodness of God, the majesty of God, the greatness of God. The line going down is our awareness of our sin.
We're converted, like we come to Jesus. We really don't understand fully what the gospel is all about. And so the cross is really small there, but it's enough. To connect those two, and we get converted. But what happens is we begin to grow.
We go to church, we listen to scripture, we get teaching, we're around other believers, and God in our mind grows bigger and bigger and more majestic and more holy while at the same time. We're growing. We're married. We're seeing our sins in a greater way. We're having kids.
We're at work. We have a conscience that's engaged. We have the Holy Spirit at work. And the awareness of our sin is growing more and more with the passing of each month. If that cross remains the same size as it did at conversion, then you're there, then you've got this big gap between the holiness of God and the gospel or the sinfulness of us and the gospel.
And so you need the cross, the gospel, to be growing in your life in every season, because ultimately, where that leads you to is, I'm the worst of sinners. That's what Paul was saying. And he was able to say that because the gospel was huge to him. Hi, this is Chancellor Cooper, Director of Media here at Family Life. I find it amazing that Family Life has been helping families for 50 years.
That's before there was internet or even the Sony Walkman. If you know, you know. Since the 1970s, family life has been pointing families and marriages to Jesus. And all along the way, it's been through prayers and support of faithful ministry partners.
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Well, what does it take to realize I'm the problem here? It's not her. It's not him. Of course, it is in a sense. But the bigger problem is look in the mirror.
I've got a sin issue. I've got to deal with that. Because it's so easy to not do that. It's so easy to go, what is your problem? We all do it.
I love some of the titles of your chapters in all of your books. You're such a good writer and a creative writer. Chapter two, Waking Up with the Worst of Sinners. The news about who we really are. And it's that point exactly.
But our sin nature says, yeah, I wake up with the worst of sinners. She's laying there beside me. Thank you. Not me. Thank you for naming her.
Exactly. It was awkward for me to say it, but for you to say it. Right. There's a quote: one of my favorite Puritan authors, Thomas Watson, says. till sin be bitter.
Christ will not be sweet. And what the gospel does is the gospel first begins with bad news, really ugly news. And the really bad, ugly news is not, hey, you're a sinner, but it's you're a sinner. And actually, the sin is to the degree that you cannot solve the problem. There's nothing that you can do to save yourself.
You are wholly inadequate. You know, you could be Mother Teresa and live the rest of your life for the poor, and that's not going to change your condition. You need something from outside of yourself. You need a savior, but the gospel starts with that bad news. And the thing is, we think we get converted under that message, and then we think we leave that whole category of sinner and we move on into brighter pastures.
That's right.
I had, I had, and that was me. You know, sin was part of my past. That's part of my story. It's part of my testimony. But getting married, you realize, oh my goodness, I wasn't even aware of how much I've sinned.
And because you're having conflict, you know, you're newly married, or even deeper in marriage, and you can't figure out half the time what's going on. It's like, am I possessed? Is she possessed? What is happening here? Because if marriage is so great, why does it seem to reveal the worst in me?
To which we would say, yeah.
Now we're beginning to understand one of the primary purposes of marriage because marriage is about ministry to each other. But for ministry to take place, God will be faithful to show each other those weak parts and those sinful parts so that you can put the gospel into play and you can grow together and you can begin to apply the gospel and enjoy the gospel in the context of your home. I think that's so rich. It's so beautiful. Where do you think you had a blind spot?
Mine may have been, well, sure, I'm a sinner. I'm just not as bad as you are. And if you're listening, how many marriage conflicts can be traced back to one spouse? believing that they are morally superior to the other. and that they actually exist on a higher moral ground.
And in actuality, they don't understand the gospel. They don't understand how the gospel levels the playing field. And they don't understand how destructive self-righteousness is. To the marriage because their belief is my spouse is the foremost of sinners. Like Paul says, of whom I am the foremost.
But I'm thinking as a woman, and I talk to a lot of other wives, we can think our husband isn't as good relationally, or their relational IQ for us isn't as good as mine. And so, what we can think is he's out there doing all this stuff, but I know how I could make us great. And I'm looking at you like, hello? Are you seeing what needs to be done in our home, in our family, in our marriage? And as a dad, are you seeing any of that?
Because I'm noticing all of the relational aspects in our home and how he's not meeting them.
So, there's my pride. Like, we're sinking because you're out here giving your best energy away. But in here, we're dying for some attention. And so, then that pride says, It's your fault. And man, as soon as we start pointing fingers.
We're in trouble. Yes. And the beauty of marriage is that as you begin to mature and the gospel moves to the center and you can own Your own need for the gospel, then you can be mirrors for one another where you can talk to your spouse about what you see in them. Yeah, most often we would hope that's the good things you see in them, where God's grace is at work in powerful ways, and you're able to celebrate that. But also, you can be honest with each other.
And because of the security that's drawn from the gospel, that doesn't bring the marriage or the relationship under threat. Yeah. It's actually you're helping each other grow. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned, and I love this analogy of Nathan. Coming to David.
And addressing his sin. Talk about that in marriage because as soon as I read that, I'm like, I'm preaching that bump, baby. That is, you know, you want, you need a Nathan in your life. You don't want them because they're a prophet and they're going to come and point out something that you need to hear, but that's what your spouse can be.
So explain that.
That is a great concept. You know, in marriage, and then if God gives you children, the children become part of this as well, you're trying to build a culture within the family. And an important feature of that culture needs to be we are honest with each other. We are gracious with each other. and we're helping each other grow.
So this is all another way to say, we're going to be Nathans. The idea is we're going to be truth speakers, and we're going to make a place for truth speakers. When that culture is in play, and it's being cultivated and the gospel's at the center of it, so that people within the home are more aware of the areas where you enjoy in them rather than the areas of your weakness. and they live in the reality of God's approval because the gospel is magnified, then I think truth-telling becomes a part of the culture. being able to say to each other, thou art the man, and that doesn't break down, that doesn't tear the relational fabric within the home, but it actually is servicing and satisfying.
and embodying the very culture that you're trying to build. The result of that is growth. The result of that is change. That's what happened with David, is that he repented as a result of that because he was smitten by it. and he needed to be smitten by it.
It's important to realize that Christianity is not constructed in such a way that we simply go out into the wilderness and grow because it's just us and God. God could have ordained the economy of our growth to happen in that manner. He did not. In the garden, he created the woman for the man. The animals were in play there as well.
We're not meant to walk alone. We're not meant to grow alone, so we grow in community. God gives us the church, He gives us each other. But it's not just that we have relationships, it's that growth happens. community.
That can begin in the home. And if we have a vision for that, the home becomes a place where people that are grown up reflect back and think, you know. The most formative years of my life had Jesus at the center and had and I learned to be gracious and to celebrate good things, but I also learned to be honest. I learned to be Nathan. Yeah, and at some point, I mean, you're thinking of David.
There had to be a A sense of humility to receive that from Nathan. And that has to happen in a marriage too, because I have to, at some point, realize I am the chief of sinners. It's not her, it's me.
Now she's got her issues too, but it's me.
So that when she comes to me or he to her, there's enough humility to say, I need to hear this. I don't want to hear it. I don't even want to believe it. Yeah. But you love me, and you're telling me because you love me, this is true about me.
What am I going to do with this? In other words, otherwise, it's going to be. Isolation, I'm going to pull away. I'm going to blame you. You're going to blame me.
And that's what most marriages do. Yes. It's just so sad rather than I have issues, please point them out. I want to be better. God's given me a gift.
You are a gift. And the gift sometimes is going to speak truth and it's going to hurt. That's right.
But I'm going to get better. And that's you can't get there unless you're willing to say, I am the chief of sinners. Yes. But I'd also point out that the way, and you pointed it out too, Dave, that you said, like you have gratitude and you're speaking life and good things into each other so that when a truth is spoken, it can be received. It's not this badgering, this constant battering of your esteem because you're not doing anything right.
You're saying both are taking place. But Nathan was a genius in his approach to David. And so I think sometimes if we can put some prayer into it of how to approach our spouse with the truth, because it's not easy to receive some hard truths.
So for us to put some prayer into it and also, Lord, How should I frame this? How can I package it in a way that they'll hear my intent isn't to harm them, but to help them? But what if we have spouses that never give us any input? Because I've talked to a lot of women that would say, My husband will never tell me anything. And I'm open, like, tell me, tell me.
And I know that that can go both ways because some people can perceive this as conflict, like, I don't, or I don't want to hurt them. What do you think you'd say to those people? Dave, you're a little bit like that. My Dave. I'm so nice.
I'm so. No, I mean, I think sometimes I'm afraid. Yeah. I'm afraid of where it's going to go. And it's not that big a deal.
So I'll just live with it. But it could get messy and complicated. It is bigger than I want to be. And we want to keep peace. Yeah.
Yeah. I can relate to that as well. I think that when it comes to. to sharing something with another person about an area of sin or weakness. I think that needs to start in prayer.
And so often we can skip over that because of our desire to just get it done, to engage God. And then I think we're going to them as fellow sinners who ourselves have received mercy.
So we're not Moses coming down from the mountain with the law and glow. And we know their sin. There's a humbleness. There's a humility, absolutely, because we've sinned in the same way. Also, we could be wrong in what we see.
Corinthians 13, we know in part, we prophesy in part. The most I'll ever get on anybody is part. You know, the most I'll ever get on my kids, or the most I'll ever get on my spouse. That's why questions have to be asked and observations are brought, not conclusions, but we bring observations to them and have conversation around that. Because, you know, one of the ways that I know that my heart is moving towards.
Self-righteousness or That there is resentment in what I'm saying toward Kim is that I'll become almost. you know, like graciously prosecutorial. Like, I'll have this inner attorney who appears, you know, who is preoccupied with times and dates. Let me just stop you right there, dear. May I remind you that on May 6th, at 2021, at 7:12, I have a photo right here.
You said, and I quote, and it's evident that I'm trying to win an argument. I'm not trying to serve a soul. I'm not trying to help her connect with Christ. My baggage is now, you know, fully in play. I think there needs to be a lot of mercy and a lot of reflection upon how much we've been forgiven.
That's so good. And then that helps to cultivate a personal heart, a culture within our own heart to be able to go to others and manage. To help the other people with their sin.
Well, you said two things, and I'm thinking, even when we talk to our kids or our grandkids, you said a couple things. You come in with humility. Hun, I know I'm not perfect and I mess up all the time. And I could be wrong about this. That right there just diffuses all that defensiveness because you're coming with this.
Not all of it, because I can still be the face guy. Even though it's perfect, I still. And let me add this too, because we need to with any of this kind of discussion. If you are in a relationship where your spouse is being abusive physically and harming you or your kids in any way, we're telling you, first of all, you need to get help. And I would say to get out and get safe, because the most loving thing you can do is to get safe and get your kids safe.
This is important. Yeah, yes. Because true mercy. And true love does not enable abuse. Yeah.
is not to submit to abuse, but to expose the evil of abuse. That's why it's important to get other people involved and to not be alone and not by the lie. That, hey, I just need to be in this. I just need to weather this. We need to get other people involved and help us with the interpretive process of what it is we're going through.
So, to wrap up, if you are looking at two sinners who just said, I do. What would you say to him?
Well, I would say congratulations. You're in for a glorious adventure together. There will be surprises and delights that you could never have even anticipated. And there will be hardships that you never dreamed would take place. There are going to be times where you love each other in ways that you can't describe through words.
And other times where you don't want to even be in the same room together. But God is forming you and shaping you through this marriage in a way that. In heaven, though you will no longer be married, You'll be amazed at the soul that's formed in you and how much you love Jesus because of the marriage. That's good. That's a great way to do that.
That's beautiful. And guess what? You can get this book, FamilyLifetoday.com. Click on the link in the show notes. We've got when sinners say I do.
Discovering the power of the gospel for marriage. Great stuff. Thanks. Thank you for having me on. Hey, we want to make sure that you know the back to small group sale.
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Yeah.
