Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Hi. I think of the Christian life in four stages: bad, good, better, best. We're born bad, we're the image of God.
For sure, lots of good and glory coming out of this. But until you are saved, that's kind of bad. We're condemned. I mean, that's not good. You become a believer, you go from bad to good.
This is good. You are now a child of God.
Okay, the day you die as a believer, you go from good to better. I desire to depart with you the Christ, which is better by far. That's Paul's own word.
Now, here's the thing. I think a lot of Christians view phase three as the final permanent phase, but there's a fourth phase. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.
This is Family Life Today. All right, we've got Dane Ortlin back in the studio family lab today. This is always like an epic day when Dane is. Dane, are you as excited to be with us as we are with you? I'm twice as excited to be with you.
No twice as excited. Yeah, what else can you say? I love talking to you two. And actually, no, I said this on the way over here 10 minutes ago. I think it's harder to.
Interview than be interviewed. I think people think, oh, the person being interviewed, you got to think up, you know, answers to questions right on the fly. No, you guys have the harder job. You are, you got to keep the conversation going and you do a great job.
So it is always a joy being with you. Why do you think Dane's one of our favorites? Part of it is you're so... Authentic. Yeah.
That's the word. I mean, deep. Grounded. Biblical, but real. And I got to be honest, your laugh makes me laugh.
Me too. I love your humor. I think, and here's what happens when we're things. We'll cry because you remind us the beauty of the gospel. But then we're also going to laugh.
So this is going to be a really fun time. But this topic that we're going to today, we haven't hit with Dane. I don't know if we've hit this with any guests that we've had on. Yeah, I'm not sure. You are it.
You are the guy. But hey, before we go there, I made a little call to your dad. A couple of weeks ago when I found out you're coming in and said, Hey, If you could say something to Dane, what would you say? And he recorded something. No.
So we thought we'd play it for you. Oh, cool. You can respond. Hit that button, Bruce. The Bible says a wise son makes a glad father, and I'm a very glad father.
Let me tell you two things about my dear son, Dane. One, he's the real deal. There is nothing artificial about him. He really loves the Lord, and he really believes the gospel. I've learned a ton from him.
Secondly, Dane is downright fun. When I don't see him for a while, just because of geography, I miss him and our great times together. I feel so privileged to be Dane's dad. I wish I could be with you all. Have a blast.
He said the same things we said. Real deal.
Well, you already started talking about crying, Anna. It was a prophetic word, perhaps. Yeah, he he is the real deal, too. He's the greatest guy I've ever known. Hands down.
a verse that I would attach to him and to his dad. Oh, I wish you two could have interviewed his dad at some point and mom. Psalm 34: those who look to him. Our radiate. You knew it, Dave.
Oh, yeah. Isn't that a great text? Yeah. When you look to God, you get a little brighter. Your mom and dad both did that, yeah.
Both of them. You get a little more resplendent, you know, glow, like spiritual. And that's them.
So, yeah, I love them with all my heart. I don't know how in the world your voices sound. Identical, I know. I'm crying already, guys. Don't mind.
When I heard him, I'm like, my sons do not sound like me. Hey, you guys are crazy how you do. Do any of your other brothers sound like your dad? I've been told I sound a little bit more like him than the other, the other two, but I can't hear my own voice.
So I don't know. Uh-oh. Dave's pulling out the guitar. I sing. People laughing, crying.
Wilson's pulling out the guitar. I figured, you know, to give our listeners and our watchers, hope you're watching, a little introduction to where we're going today. Yeah, here's some songs that talk about this topic. You know, this one? Come on, you gotta know 1971, John Lennon.
There's no heaven. It's easy if you try. I mean there's people who know this. No hell below us Above us, only sky. I'm not gonna do the whole song, but here I know you don't know this one.
This is 702. When I die. And they leave me the rest. Gonna go. That's the best to the best.
Can I lay me down to die? Going up under the spirit in the sky. You don't know that song? Dave, he's born in what year, Dave? 78.
78. I know you're born in 78, but you know this song. Stairway. Everybody knows this song. I can do the whole stairway to heaven song in one minute.
There's a lady. You show all that glitters is gone, and she's by. In the stairway. To heaven. That's a terrible introduction to this topic.
Not terrible at all. But why did you decide to write about heaven? Anything I write, guys, actually is me working my way out of my own situation. State of being underdeveloped in something.
So I came to the conviction that I am not drawing strength from what I am going to be experiencing forever in this little two-second blip of a life on my way there.
So I sat down and started doing some reading about it, thinking about it, and thought, I think we need to bring our hearts and minds back to both clarity about what the scripture actually gives us in terms of our future. I think there's a lot of lack of clarity, but way more than that through that clarity, ah, getting happier because of it, enjoying it, like being a little bit more radiant in light of it.
So that was why. Yeah, so this wasn't like I'm doing a sermon series. No, this was your own personal? We did a little, actually, we did a little sermon series more on hell. There you go.
Than heaven. But we don't preach on that much in churches these days. No, we don't. And Jesus said a lot about it. Yeah.
So I did do, we did like five weeks on hell and heaven a couple years ago, but that did not really transpose onto this book. This book was, yeah, just sitting down and kind of thinking myself clear. And bringing readers along with me. The book is called Finally Home: The Christian Hope of Heaven.
So I'm excited to talk about this because I don't think we know much about heaven. There aren't all that many books. No.
There are a few books that are great, but I don't think there are many. And I don't think we have a really clear view of what heaven is like. Did anything surprise you? Like as you started studying? Wow, several things.
First of all, the number one misconception to clear up, I think, Ann, and we were just talking about this a few minutes ago together offline, is the intermediate state.
So if I die today and Jesus returns a year from now, without getting into all the details of millennial views and that kind of thing, we can all agree if I die today and Jesus returns a year from now, I will spend one year without a body. floating about in heaven and one year only. Then he will return to earth and we will all, the scripture teaches, Be raised and be on this planet forever. That's our afterlife. That's our permanent situation.
To get to you, you're not talking about purgatory. No, no, no, no. The Bible way to go, Anne. Way to bring that one up.
Some people are listening, like, oh, there's an in-between, you know? Hang on a minute. Let's do that for just a minute. Purgatory. What is purgatory?
The Catholic teaching that you need to spend some time getting finally cleansed before you get into heaven.
Okay, actually. Paul opens a letter like Ephesians and he says, to the saints. What does he mean by saint? In Roman Catholic teaching, a saint is like the top 1% most virtuous people. I think they had to perform two miracles that are verified and so on.
No, if you're a Christian, you're a saint. What's a saint? It's a clean one. We have been rinsed clean. We've been given a gospel bath.
If you're united to Christ, you are as clean as he is objectively. Subjectively, we've got a lot of messiness, but in terms of in God's sight, objectively.
So I don't need purgatory. I'm already a saint. That's my name. That's what we are: Saint Anne, Saint Dave, Saint Dane. Hey, I want you to start calling me up.
I don't work. Don't call home, Saint Anne. It takes away fear. Like the fear, like all of that. We are saints.
I mean, what you just taught is deep. Truth that a lot of even church-going Christian people do not understand. You are a sanctified, set-apart saint. You have been a Catholic saint that's revered. You are in Christ.
You are a saint. Dave. The worst behaving Christian is as much. A saint. As the best behaving Christian, objectively.
They both are saints. They both have sainthood. Oh, our saintliness goes up and down. Yeah. Oh, that's a good way to say it.
But our sainthood is fixed. And that is deeply comforting. Oh, yeah. So in heaven, we are going to experience subjectively the cleanness that actually we already have at the level of identity and name and objectively. Yeah.
You asked Ann a minute ago what surprised you. Here's one thing that surprised me: tell me what you guys think about this. The beatific vision. Hang with me here. The B what?
Beaty. Beatific means being happy. It means happifying. It means you're given joy. Beatific vision: when you see God, you get really, really happy.
That's actually what heaven is. Oh, reunion with loved ones-that's a great part of it, too. But that's secondary and derivative, which is crazy that that's secondary and derivative, right? Because that's going to be such an exquisite joy. But what makes heaven heaven.
Is seeing God, seeing Christ. What do you call heaven without Jesus? Hell. Seeing him, the theologians say this: heaven goes on forever, and what it is is. Because God is infinite?
Seeing more and more of him all the time without that ever ending, never hitting bottom on seeing him and getting happier as a result. That's what Jonathan Edwards and Gregory of Nyssa and Thomas Aquinas and Augustine describe heaven as being. And that's biblically defensible because of some texts in Revelation 21 and 22. That's an amazing thought. Reading your book.
I told Ann, I said, I am so excited to go to heaven right now. I mean, not that I want to die today, but it really inspired me. And when that, when you live with that, revelation and inspiration. It impacts who you are as a husband, as a dad, as a mom, as a wife, right? It impacts everything.
Absolutely. I mean, what would it what would it look like to go through a Wednesday with our kids? What is changing a diaper? In the middle of the night. How is that affected by the doctrine of heaven?
Well, not that we're always consciously thinking about where we're going to be forever, but if my joy Is invincibly settled elsewhere because of what I am going to experience forever. I'm untouchable by the. The mundane things of life, by the hardships of life. I'm going through my life, and I am saying to my kids, and I am drawing strength myself from the fact that this short little thing, I'm just going to give myself in love to these kids, to my family, and that it's just going to be here in God. I'm going to be at rest, calmed, at peace, happy forever.
It affects the way we conduct ourselves, the way we feel, the way we are going through a normal day. And what's interesting, too, is we talk to our kids and even our grandkids, we can talk about. The joy and not the fear that we have of dying. Like, I think one of the number one fears a person has is death. Yeah, oh, for sure.
And I can remember, I don't know if you know this, Dane. I had a heart stent put in last May. I did not know that, Anne. I had the heart stent. We flew to be on focus on the family like three days later because I had a new book coming out.
And before everybody judges me for taking my wife to Colorado three days after, the doctor said it was okay.
Okay. I asked him something. I was on the table and I asked him if we could go. And he goes, Yeah, he'll be fine. He'll be fine.
But altitude changed, dehydrated, all kinds of things. Two in the morning. All night, almost all night. And so we had three hours of sleep. But we come home from the hospital.
And I remember, like, my, I still wasn't feeling quite right. I just, the stent was three days old. And you have all these fears. Like, what if it didn't work? What's going on with my heart?
And I remember Dave just prayed over me, which was incredible. But then I remember thinking, well, if I die, and these are my last moments. It will be glorious because I'll just wake up with Jesus and there's no fear. And if I live, well, that means there's more for me to do. Because as long as we have breath in our lungs, God has things for us on the planet to do.
And just that peace of knowing is like Paul, to live as Christ, to die is gain. And so both of those things, I was like, To not have the fear of death, that's a big deal. And to then know, like what your book talks about, what it's going to be like. Unbelievable. You get like excited.
And by the way, Dane, I mean, that we're in the hotel room, just came home from the hospital, or ER basically, for several hours. And I know she's asleep 'cause she starts twitching, you know? You know, I'm holding her and she fell asleep. And I I mean, I didn't know she was thinking, well, if I die, I'll be in heaven. I was like, she might die.
I was awake the whole night because I was, you know, it's not the fear of where she's going, it's fear of losing her.
So talk about both of those realities because you've got both sides of that. One side is we get to be with Jesus, the other side is the people we leave. Really struggle. You're right. It's a both and, and you just articulated it so poignantly and wonderfully and autobiographically.
And it's just what Paul says in Philippians chapter 1, where he says, you know, I would like to go to heaven, paraphrase. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is, he says, better by far. But I know the Lord has work for me here to do still. And What a relief to know. Actually, oh guys.
It's a win-win. You just said it, Anne. Yeah. This is a win-win. Yeah.
Nothing is at stake. And we can tell our kids this: nothing's at stake either. I get. Door number one, release. And rest.
Not a trapdoor into hell, an escalator up to perfect happiness. Door number one. Door number two. I stay here. And God has a little bit more work for me to do in my work and family, and loving my spouse and kids, and training them to get ready for heaven.
That's a win-win. Mm. Uh Every single day, families around the world are facing real struggles, and Family Life is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a Family Life partner, your monthly support fuels this work. Together, we're helping families really grow stronger in Christ.
So join us. Yeah, just go to familylifetoday.com and tap the donate button at the top of the page.
Now, let me ask you, you said a little earlier the intermediate state. Oh boy. You know, you're floating until Jesus. I mean, that's a theological. Position different people have.
I was, when you said that, I was thinking of Danny Ellens. One of our good friends in Holland, Michigan just died, a heart attack coming down a mountain in Arizona.
So three or four weeks ago, he dies. Danny. Danny. He's there. Yeah.
Christ said to the thief on the cross, Today you will be with me in paradise. Philippians 1. A desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 2 Corinthians 5 gets at the same idea. Those are the three passages that teach us that, well, I think of it like this: I think of the Christian life in four stages: bad, good, better, best.
Real simple. We're born bad. We're the image of God. For sure. Lots of good and glory coming out of it.
But until you are saved, that's kind of bad. We're condemned. I mean, that's not good. You become a believer, you go from bad to good. This is good.
You are now a child of God.
You are justified. You're rinsed clean, as we just said earlier, and all the other blessings of salvation. That's good.
Okay, the day you die as a believer, you go from good to better. I desire to depart with you with Christ, which is better by far. That's Paul's own word: the intermediate state, floating about in heaven, no body. But no sin.
Now here's the thing. I think a lot of Christians view phase three as the final permanent phase, kind of just tacitly. I did for most of my life. Yeah. But there's a fourth phase.
Greek thinking, ancient Greek thinking, you know, Plato and others would teach that actually that is the better thing to just leave this body behind. But Hebrew and Christian teaching is the body is good. The body is a good thing, it's fallen. But it's good. God didn't give us bodies in Genesis 3 when we fell.
It wasn't like Genesis 1 and 2, their spirits. Oh, now you send, I'm going to give you a body. They had bodies, the bodies got corrupted.
Okay, phase four is best. No sin, but getting your body back. Guys, here's the amazing thing. Oh, there's 1 Corinthians 15 is very clear. The kind of body.
Mm. that Jesus had. When he was raised. Is the exact, he's the first model off the assembly line. of what every Christian is going to get.
Now, I think we tend to think Jesus is God. And so he had a really he had like the varsity version body. We get a JV version. No, as the God man, the body he got, First Corinthians 15 is very clear. We get the kind of body he had, which is what.
He could appear in locked rooms. Yeah. Mary had trouble recognizing him. On the one hand, On the other hand, John 21, the risen Jesus is broiling fish and eating bread. And he says that wonderful sentence to the disciples when they're in the boat: come and have breakfast.
He's eating fish. He tells Thomas, hey, stick your hand in my side. Fully physical. But he can appear in locked rooms. What's going on?
Here's how to understand it. The laws of nature are no longer the master. Of someone who's been given a resurrection body, but the servant, but fully physical. That's the body we're gonna have on this planet Earth. We will be bright and strong.
Thomas Aquinas says we're going to be bright and very fast and very at like finally. Yeah. Yeah. So that's best. The best thing is back on this planet with actual bodies that eat and run and play and laugh.
That's crazy, too. Even to think of Jesus, to think of us like walking through a door. Yeah. You know, just you don't even walk through, you don't open the door, you just walk through the door. Like, what?
Which makes you think, like, how will we travel? Will we just, you know, there's so many questions. Yes.
Well, I mean, that blows away some myths, though. A lot of people, and I grew up. In a traditional church with my mom, and I think I heard heaven is floating around in the clouds, playing harps, singing hymns. Forever.
Sounds boring, actually. Yeah, very boring. I wanted to tell you that. I was like, yeah, that is. Really?
That's our eternity? Where does that come from? I mean, I literally heard that.
Well, you said, like, let's define the better because you said bad, good, better, best.
So, what is the better? You said we're floating around, which sounds like, oh, what's that? Better is the intermediate state. It's where we're with Christ. We do not have a body, but we can never undress from our soul.
Our soul is who we are.
So it's our soul is with God. Yes, that's right. That's what better is. But we feel the time. Like, if I die today and Jesus doesn't come back for 10 years, why no, it's 10 years or it would be pretty quick.
The answer to that question, Dave, is we don't know.
So we go as far as the scripture is explicit or gives, or with our sanctified speculation, it gives us trajectories to understand. But we also need to say there's mystery here too, and we can't parse it out exactly.
So I don't know the answer to that. We'll find out. But with our soul, we will still have emotion and joy. I believe so. I need to.
But get to best, though.
So best is. Here on this planet, in better, in the intermediate state, you'll be with Christ, but you can't hug him.
Well, that's depressing. Right. It will be better than being here. Here we are in Christ, but not with him in the way that we will be with him in the intermediate state. But in best, when we all have bodies, then just like he would sweep up little kids into his arms in the gospels, then you can hug him.
Then you can hug him. And here's one way that I think of it. Just as in Revelation, the end of Revelation, it says, it doesn't say there is no sun, S-U-N, in the new earth, the final best. It says there is no need of a son. Why is there no need of a son?
I believe there will be a son because God created the sun and the moon, Genesis 1 and 2, before the fall. Oh, the created order will be there. Animals, Genesis 1 and 2 recovered in an escalated and unfallable way. That's the best. That's the new earth.
And there's no need of a sun. The reason is we're there with the S-O-N.
So the way I like to put it is: sunlight has become the new sunlight. S-O-N light has become the new. S-U-N-Light.
So if you think, oh, we're finally going to be with Christ, good, and we'll all have bodies, but there's going to be like lines of millions of people to talk to him and to actually hug him. Hang on a minute. When you go to the beach, are there lines? To enjoy the S-U-N. No, you are just basking in it.
You're just enjoying it. It's just everywhere. Just look up, just receive it. That must be analogous to what it's going to be like with Christ. He has a body.
He has a body right now. He was incarnated, he took on flesh, and he never put it off. We will always have it. including in the New Earth. But in some way, we will all be enjoying him.
What a candle is to the SUN. The S-U-N is to Jesus Christ in the new earth. Oh. Yeah. Why do you think we love Dane so much?
He is so biblically sound. He's so full of joy. There's a An enthusiasm and joy that exudes out of him. And part of me thinks it's because of what we're talking about today. I do too.
Did you see him almost coming out of his seat at times? Like, I can't wait to talk about this. And I feel like when we talk to Dane, there are always little nuggets that he shares biblically that I've never even thought about before.
So it's going to be fun to be with him again tomorrow. Yeah, he'll be with us tomorrow. But if you'd like, go right now to get his book. It's called Finally Home: The Christian Hope of Heaven. And you can get it at familylifetoday.com.
Just click on the link in the show notes and join us back tomorrow. We're going to have Dane back talking about heaven. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
