Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Uh What we want is we want level 10 intimacy, but we haven't done the level 2 work. Right. And so being intentional, going out on date nights, having some patterns in your marriage to where.
you begin to say, hey, I'm feeling really insecure about sharing this with you. But I'm going to. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson. And I'm Ann Wilson.
You can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Wow, this has been like a roller coaster of agony, of hope, of redemption, of God's grace.
Well, the amazing thing is, this story could have gone so badly. It could have ended tragically, and yet God meets them and You get to hear the rest and there's probably more, but the rest of Justin and Tricia Davis' story today. Yeah, and their book, I'm just going to say it right off the top, so some of you might want to even search it. It's called One Choice Away from Change. Break the cycles that hurt your relationships and hold you back.
So let's get into our conversation with Tricia and Justin. Trish, let me ask you this. Like I know some women are probably watching this. Like, are you crazy? You have no idea if he's gonna go back to that or hide again and you forgave him.
Like, What would you say to those people that are pushing back on this grace and forgiveness story? I get it. I mean, I think it's a very smart and wise question to ask. And I think that's a great place to start. You know, you asked, what is the.
What's the one choice? And the first choice is acknowledging. The wound is naming this. Is yeah, I what you just said, how do you do that? And even though it's a question, it's naming the pain.
And that's something that we didn't know to do. We were arguing about the same things. expecting different results. And so to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results is insanity.
So then you just get you get so tired of the grind that you just you think that you know what the pain is. But really it takes work to name. I feel distance. I feel shame. I feel.
Fearful, when we start naming wounds, that first choice, then that's where we begin to break the cycle. Rather than living from a place of fear or from shame, we actually name it to say, okay, What are my choices to do from it? And when we don't embrace it or name it, then we just behave out of it. And when we behave out of it, then we have reactions.
Some of us try to control. Others of us, we just kind of retreat. We don't want to have community. Especially with betrayal trauma. I mean, there's something about betrayal trauma that goes beyond being betrayed by somebody.
There's another person involved, and that's you. Where you feel like you can't even trust yourself. How did I miss this?
So, like, the layers of that begin really, you know, another way to say it is surrender. It's surrendering and saying, okay, this is my... Reality. And it sounds so elementary, but it's life-changing.
Now, Justin, what was yours when you named it? What was your pain?
Well, I think the first one was just insecurity. I think that insecurity, that fear of being rejected, that fear of not being loved, of being abandoned. And I didn't even know why I had that. But from the time I was like a little kid, I had this fear of being left in a store. By my parents.
And so we can get into that later, but there was this built-in abandonment issue that I had that I wanted to try to please people. And it's being a pastor is perfect because you have people come up, great message. That was powerful, right? You have people reinforcing their belief in you every single week. And so it was almost like this dopamine hit that I got.
And I was a hero at church, and I was a dog at home. And so, if she doesn't think I'm a hero, she doesn't think I'm amazing, then she's going to leave me. She's going to abandon me. And so, you begin to operate out of that. I do want to say, too, I think it's important for the person that is listening to realize forgiveness is free and trust is earned.
Those are two different conversations. And so, I think there is.
Okay, you're gonna go find that, yeah.
Well, that's what I was gonna say. If I was gonna name mine, mine was unforgiveness. And when I started getting into the weeds of my my story, I realized that I had a problem with unforgiveness way before the affair. And my parents were married for 25 years, and a year into our marriage, my dad had come out with affairs. And like, this rose-colored glass is now for my family, even though we had housing insecurity, all of these different things that I just, I don't know, maybe it's middle-child syndrome.
I don't know, Peacemaker, all of it. But when that happened, it was the first time where betrayal trauma had hit my heart and my dad wasn't trustworthy and I didn't know what to do with it. And forgiveness felt like a get out of jail free card. And so I had withheld my forgiveness, not knowing that that's living from a place of bitterness. and bitterness always lends itself to resentment.
And resentment is like a cancer. It affects all your relationships. And so, 10 years into marriage, I had kind of been living stiffed-armed. Because of what my dad did. And then you're not.
Without even realizing it. No, without realizing the connection. They're malicious and sometimes they're not even conscious. They're an operating system that we adopt to feel security in the insecure attachments. Yeah, and so it's a name I have.
Unforgiveness is fine, but then what is forgiveness? And a lot of people, what Justin just said, equate forgiveness with trust. But forgiveness is free. Trust is earned. We feel like it is a get out of jail-free card that if we offer forgiveness, that means we don't have to have boundaries.
But boundaries are like the lavish, most lavish act of love you can have for someone because you're saying, I'm so hurt by you, but I care enough about you that I am going to put work into healthy boundaries. If I didn't care for you, I would just peace out and be like. I'm out. I mean, Justin has a you know pastor. Just a business guy, anybody.
Do you have boundaries around women? That you like exercise personally and also for your marriage. Yeah, absolutely. I think there were boundaries in place before the affair.
So that's why, you know, I'm not going to go on an elevator with, you know, a woman. I'm not going to be alone in an office with a woman. Those things functionally need to be in place. I think Yeah There are greater boundaries. That's even more freedom is Trish and I have honest conversations about my heart.
We have honest conversations about temptation. We have honest conversations about how we're wired, what needs that each of us need.
So is this something that you guys, in terms of transparency and vulnerability and communication, is this a weekly Thing now. I mean, because every couple, and we say this if we can remember, every couple drifts. Sure. Toward isolation, we call it, you know, and it's natural. It isn't like we try to.
It's just if you don't do something, you will drift. And so it's all about, okay, how do I work for oneness? And then our dream is from isolation to oneness to impact, which God doesn't want you to just be one. He wants to now use you, which is doing with you guys.
So how do you stay one, connected, tight, having these conversations? No hiddenness, no secrets. On a daily, weekly basis. Is it something you really work out? Kids, all that.
How's that? What's that look like?
Well, kind of a language that we use, a framework we use, is what's mine to own, what's yours to own, and what's ours to own. And not everything is about us as a couple. In fact, most of what we are is individual, and then how it affects us as a couple. And Sometimes it's bringing that to each other and being able to hold space to, you know, not take personal what feels personal. Like, I was really grumpy with you.
It wasn't towards you.
So, some of that is owning what we need to own in the moments and it not being bigger than it needs to be. I mean, Dave and I were driving into the studio today, and I've got this cold. I've had it, and I'm mad at him because he gave it to me. She really thinks, but I gave it to her. But I did say, he's like, what's up?
Like, you're super quiet. And I can tell I just don't have the energy. And just to say to a spouse, this isn't about you or us. I'm just sick. Yeah.
You know, that's. But she did say it was about me because she said, I sucked off your straw at the movie last week. I'm like, you were around me two weeks while I was sick. I don't think it was the straw. And I was really only kidding.
But I think those little things in the past could be a huge thing. Yeah. You know, where you start attacking each other. And like, and so you named it. Yes.
You named it and just called it. You know what I mean? I think a lot of couples where they where they drift is, I'm just not going to ask her because she's going to say this and I'm going to say this and I'm going to say she's going to say this and it's going to be a fight.
So I just, it's easier not to. Yeah. And what we found is we would rather have a difficult conversation than to put off a conversation that's going to be even more difficult later. Exactly. That took five minutes for us.
I'm sick. It's not about you. And he's like, okay. And so seeing those. Things as opportunities to grow rather than things to avoid or reflect, you know, this is going to reflect badly on our relationship.
No, it actually is a reflection of a healthy relationship.
Okay. Mom anger happens. The yelling, the snapping, the hiding in the bathroom with cold coffee. But what's really underneath your anger? Mom of four, Janelle Breitenstein, shares practical help and biblical hope in a free five-session video series.
Start today at familylife.com/slash momanger. How do you help us break the cycle?
Well, I think the first thing is rather than looking at. what the relationship isn't. Look at what it is. And so, you know, Trish and I have had enough reps to where. There's been intentional investments in our relationship.
From both sides, that we can have these conversations that are level two conversations, they're not. They're not level two conversations that we're having at a level eight. Intensity. And so I think what we want is we want level 10 intimacy, but we haven't done the level 2 work. Right.
And so being intentional. Going out on date nights, having some patterns in your marriage to where you begin to. Say, hey, I'm feeling really insecure about sharing this with you. But I'm going to. So you're quantifying how you're feeling.
That's good. Before you're just going, you're so quiet.
Well, that's not going to make you talk. You know, you know, slamming someone for their demeanor isn't going to help them have a better demeanor. I notice you're quiet. Is there something going on that I can help with? Right?
There's. questions that you can ask to say Hey, I know that I was really short with you last night. Here's what's really going on. Right? I had a bad day at work.
My boss said something to me that really set me off for the rest of the evening. It wasn't about you or the kids.
Well, those little vulnerabilities. Help you build up to larger vulnerabilities. I don't know if you have anything to add to that. This is going to be kind of a rough statement, but. It's being willing to do the work that your spouse isn't doing.
So When we enter that conversation of when you do, then I will. Then we just won't show up.
So. I'm gonna ask the question. Not to win the argument. Justin says this all the time: you can win the argument, but lose their heart. I'm going to ask because I care about them.
So That's really hard when you're breaking the cycle, you guys gave a perfect example. If the history of her being mad at you, or the history of you not asking about how she feels, and then that scenario happens, well, that changes that scenario. Oh, he's going to ask me now.
So it begins breaking the cycle of recognizing why am I asking? And then what am I believing? About them.
So, and Justin just said that you asked her, you know, hey, you're kind of quiet.
Well Words are powerful. Kind of quiet. What's going on now? What's going on with you? We got to go to the studio.
We got to, you know what I mean? Like that, that's about him figuring it out so he can feel better.
So when you get to the studio, you're ready. When you ask, hey, you're quiet, what's going on? It says, hey. My motive is because I care about her. And I'm going to believe when she responds that her motive is to just share her heart.
And there's not an underlying, what is mine to own, what is yours to own, what's ours to own. And it's the simplest things that keep us.
So, you know, if you are stuck in a marriage relationship where you know, as soon as you ask a question, you can feel it in your body. I would simply say, take a deep breath and think to yourself, why am I asking this question? What is it that I'm looking for? Is it about them? Or is it about something I need?
Because if you ask a question and they think it's about them, but you just asked it because you need something, you'll always be disappointed. And so that daily living is We're just honest. We talk about in the book about how words spoken over us leave messages. And as I've done the deep work of my childhood, my main pain message is that I'm stupid. And so most days I'm okay with it.
Grad school's challenged me in that. But Justin can come into my office and say, Hey, we have that podcast scheduled at He could just be asking because he's processing something. And my response is, why are you asking me? You're so triggered. Yeah, do you not think I know my schedule?
Like, and that's not my daily, but you catch me on a bad day.
Well, Justin could go right down in that depth with me, or he could pause and say, Hey, what's going on? Speaking into that. And that's when it's like, oh, he's not shaming me for responding. I need to own that I was such a brat. And I'm really, dude, I'm so sorry.
And then again, it's like, That's where marriage becomes fun: that you have this partner to do life with rather than someone you always feel like you have to work against. But I think there's also this truth that if I know that one of her core wounds is feeling stupid, then it changes how I can approach her, how I can say things to her, because I'm aware. I don't want to make her feel that way. That's not my motive, right? If she knows that my biggest.
you know, wound is abandonment, then she can phrase things in a way that, hey, I'm here. I'm here. I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. We're going to get through this, but I need to know this.
Well, then it's reassuring because you feel like, oh, she's for me. Even though we're going to have this difficult conversation. I'm for her. She's for me.
Well, we only have like three minutes left. Oh, you want one more thing? You have to like drop this. Like, because everybody listening has got to get this book. They've got to know about your ministry.
You're going to want this. But it's unbelievable that we go through hard things. And I think we think that was it. I've learned my lesson and now God's going to use me and now I'm all good. But it's not always like that.
We're always uncovering new things. Yeah. One of the reasons why we wrote One Choice Away from Change, we wrote Beyond Ordinary in 2013. It was the story of our marriage. But this book really.
is about relational and family cycles that if not healed, they they get passed down. And in twenty twenty one, this is I don't know how to get into this 'cause I'm just to say it. But in twenty twenty one through A number of events that led to ancestry.com. Trisha and I found out within six days of each other that our dads are not our biological dads. You both find this out.
But we're not related. I know we only have a few minutes, but we're not related.
So when I heard that, Power, like, what? Like, are you kidding me? This is unbelievable. I mean, you both grew up in families where the secrets were alive and well. Yeah, mine had a cultural aspect to it of losing my heritage of being Hispanic.
I am wired so much like him. We like to work with our hands. We're just, we are wired so much alike.
So I never, ever once thought I wasn't a Lopez until growing up, I'd have people say, oh, you're the milkman's daughter. You're all like, it never, it was, I was like a duck. It's just funny. Came off. But now not only was the truth revealed that I am my essence, my being was a product of an affair.
So not only did I lose my. Hispanic heritage, losing my dad.
Now my very essence was the product of sin. And so there was a lot for both of us You know, and not to wrap it up with the bow, and I would say the book, obviously, we speak into it, but. Betrayal trauma for me, every single woman in my life of importance had betrayed me, and now. Everything that I had experienced and found healing from then. was still true for me today.
And it's been hard and it's been messy. That's why we talk about the messy middle. But it was a different kind of boat crashing ashore that now Justin and I had to pick up the pieces in a different way. And yeah, and we're not minimizing. Like I couldn't brush my teeth in front of the mirror.
I brushed my teeth in the kitchen for a year because I didn't want to look at myself in the mirror. Like it was, it was traumatic. You know, Tricia went to a place called OnSight for eight days to try to heal from, you know, called trauma camp. It's a great place.
So, I mean, there was some major, major. Consequences and major work that we had to do. Wait, you couldn't brush your teeth and look in the mirror after you found out about your dad? Yeah. Because my identity was gone.
You know, I just I I mean that was just the for me every it was different than Trish. Tr Trish's secret was hidden from everyone. My dad adopted me when I was two. My mom is my mom, but my mom was pregnant with me when she met my dad. And so there was this conspiracy from everybody that was older than me.
Everyone knew this secret except for me. And so it just, it messed with me. But I say all that to say like. Our grandson was born, his name's Zeke. He was born December 12th, 2025.
And sitting in his in my son's house, holding him. with trash. I just said to us, I'm so thankful that we've paid all the price that we've had to pay. to be here together. We're not alternating.
Visiting Zeke from two different families. We have broken cycles that Zeke will not have to grow up in. Because we chose to do the hard work of love. Mm. And that's what it's all about.
It's not even about you. Or me, it's about that legacy. It could have gone a totally different way. God's grace. Yeah, way to go.
We all run from rock bottom. We don't want to go there. We do anything we can, even sin, to stay away from collapsing our lives. And yet, rock bottom is the most beautiful spot. Where God will meet us.
You know, again, you don't have to go there to meet God there, but when you get there, you'll find He's there. And if you're avoiding rock bottom with a lie and hiding a secret, that secret's going to take you there eventually.
So, why not? I mean, I'm thinking there's some couples listening like. From the minute we started talking. They knew God was saying, You've got to tell her or tell him. And if you don't.
It's gonna not go well. And if you do, it's not gonna go well either. But it's a better choice. And I can meet you there and maybe do in you what you've done in you guys. Am I right?
Yeah. Well, I think we miss out that the biggest beneficiary to truth is us. Yeah. You know, we get to live in freedom. We get to live in a right relationship with God.
The truth definitely does set us free. And that's been the biggest lesson that we've learned along this journey. And to be able to be in a marriage in a family now. That is just open, we're just open-handed and completely transparent is a beautiful thing. I'm wondering, could one of you or both of you just pray for our listeners that are just this is just triggering and bringing up so much and they don't know what to do?
Could you just pray for them? Yeah. Heavenly Father, we thank you for this conversation of A lot of hard, a lot of messy, and I pray for the person listening right now who. maybe is trembling a little bit. Their mind is kind of spinning in all the different realities of.
What could happen if they shared part of their story? And so, Lord, I pray for the person who has been wounded. And they feel like they don't know life without resentment or bitterness. And so I pray in this moment, in the name of Jesus, you would help them release that to you. Not to achieve anything or be anybody, but just to be fully known and fully loved by you, surrendered.
in their pain. Lord, I pray for the person who is the wounder. It feels like they have Choices to be made, and they just don't even know where to start. And I pray that you would remind them that the ground is level at the foot of the cross. That while we, every single one of us, were sinners, you died for us.
And so the grace and the forgiveness and the freedom that They desperately want is what we have all desperately needed, and you give it freely. I pray for the couple maybe listening together, and they're just feeling. Like they don't know what the next right step is. Father, I pray whether it's through this ministry Through a counselor, that you would make it of billboard proportion clear. To just take the next brave step, to find help.
To get honest. And to be reminded that we are not the sum of our choices. We are not the sum of even our relationships that you call us loved and chosen. and you call us redeemed. That's how we leave this conversation with our heads held high, knowing that we are beloved sons and daughters of Christ.
And for that, We are grateful. And we pray that in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. And if people would want to get a hold of your ministry or to you guys, where do they go?
Yeah, they can go to justinandtricia.com. That's easy. Yeah, guys, this has been so good. Yeah, it's been awesome. If you want to get their book, go to familylifetoday.com and click on the link in the show notes, and we will.
Get you one choice away from change. You can buy it there. And I'd get a bunch because this is a book you want to give to a lot of people. Thank you. Thank you guys.
Before we're done today, I just want to remind our listeners that we know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true? That is true. And as a family life partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.
So let's make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a Crew Ministry: 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
