This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. We're grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. To learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. We got a call from my mom. basically outing one of our kids.
Wow. And man, you talk about embarrassing, yeah. And you're starting thinking about your perception management, where and you're in ministry and all this kind of stuff, and you're feeling all that, and you all you feel is anger. Like, how could my kid do this to me? And it's like you got to move, you got to step back from that and go, we all do that.
Yeah. Yeah. So now how do I move through that chaos and connect them to a savior? Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.
And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is Family Life Today. All right, we got the men's panel back in the studio. We got Brian and George and Duron and talking about marriage, talking about being dads. I just spoke in a men's conference in New York.
I said to these men, and I never said it quite like this before, I said, I don't think we have a toxic masculinity problem. We have a toxic passivity problem. And they cheered. That's a good word. I got a reaction.
I'm like, something connected with that. And again, I'm not saying toxic masculinity is not a thing. It's a thing. You power up and you control. That is ridiculous.
But I think guys in the room resonated with: I am not as active in my family, my parenting, my marriage as I should be. Maybe I've even heard that in different ways from my wife.
So answer this question: how do we step out of it? How do we, you know, I always talk about four pillars of manhood. The R for real man is a real man rejects passivity. And I try to say, passivity is in there. It was in Adam's, and we can rip on Adam in the garden, and then we look in the mirror and go.
I'm as bad as Adam.
So, when we feel it in us, we have to reject it and push it down and act. What's that look like for you guys?
So, I think for me, it's intentionality. And I think one of the ways I get passive is, I got so many other things I could be doing right now. I'll just let that go and then I'll get to it when I can. Those things I've noticed in me that if I start doing that, They need my attention. And so I try to be intentional about those things.
Step into it. Step into it. Darren's early response was that I could be doing so many other things I could be doing right now. I always think there's so many different things I could be watching right now. I could be thinking about all the leisure things I could be doing.
But I think it is intentionality. I think a lot of it is just systems too. It's like figuring out what are those regular habits that I just keep. consistently in my life. Like for me, me and Jen praying together.
It wasn't anything magical. It was one, just admitting, I don't really want to do this. I'm not really excited about this. I'm not drawn to this and being okay with that and just admitting it. But we had, you know, we bought these two new chairs and we sat them together and we were having coffee in the morning.
Jen put a list together and we just started. Praying through the list. Wow. Start out maybe five minutes a day, and we don't hit every day, but it's like most days in a week, if we're in those chairs and we're having coffee together, one or both, one of us will say, All right, you ready to pray? And just that list and that system has helped us.
So I think there's got to be something in place. Otherwise, I think my tendency is just to pull back. Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Is there any sense that you need accountability? Oh, yeah. Oh, 100%. Whether it's your wife or another guy or a group of guys, what's that look like in your life? Do you have that?
I have two guys in my life. I'm thinking about them right now that they do that. They know my life inside and out. They're those people that can say what needs to be said and I just gotta. I got to swallow it.
We started out meeting for coffee and all that.
Now it's just really organic. It's a it's a text message, it's a phone call, and for whatever reason, man, the Holy Spirit talks to them. They'll call me at the right time. Like, Hey, what are you doing right now?
Well, you just caught me and I'm sitting here. Why? You should be doing this. You said you were going to do this, or checking in on my family.
So it started out intentional now, became really organic that. I expect a message from the Middle East. Two or three times a day. Really? Yeah.
Man, you must really need help, huh? Oh, I do, man. I do. I'm telling you. We all do.
That's the truth. We really do. The community aspect of living in the body is new to me. Cause I've just been a loner. I've always just been like, I know immensely I need people.
It wasn't a reality in my life. The past couple years, I have a circle of men who not two, three times a day, but yeah, regularly we check in on each other and It's something that I'm learning not just mentally, but now it's a part of my. Walk to live in community, yeah, and it is. It's been this, like, this huge uh benefit in my life where men can actually check me. I got some pastors that will check me, yeah, you know, and say, George, yeah, like you said, George, what are you doing?
And yeah, it's been transformational. It's been challenging because I still hate it. I don't like days. I don't want it. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, man. But it's needed. And also living life with other married couples that want the same thing for their marriages and for their parenting. Yeah.
Yeah. That is so important. Yeah, I know. I'm guessing you guys experienced this when you like, don't want to go to the gym and then you go. Usually when you're walking out, not every time, but nine out of 10 times for me, I'm walking out going, I'm glad I did it.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I didn't want to. I sort of walked in like the next thing you knew, I get into it. It's an hour and an hour later and I'm walking out going.
That's a good thing. Yeah. And that's why we need men in our lives because a lot of times I wouldn't go to the gym by myself, but if there's a guy there, I'm going to do it. Yeah. You know, that type of thing.
I mean, I feel that passivity. I feel that way. I feel that way, especially about the conversations that I know I need to have with my kids that I just don't want to have. Like I sat down with Gibson the other day, we were playing racquetball and And there was something that just made me want to. Check him how he's doing with his phone, what he's looking at.
You know, you know, the stuff. He's a 17-year-old boy. Yeah. I hadn't asked him in a while, and I wanted to I wanted to see where he's at. And it's like, I don't want to start that conversation.
Yeah. Because I'd rather just be. I feel like we're doing good. We played a good game. It was fun.
I'd rather be fun and harmonious than like intimate. Yeah. Especially with my kids. Yeah. Because I want them to like me.
Yeah. At the end of the day. And it's easier. It is easier. And those, but I always feel better after.
Yeah. And I think that's like what you're saying about you said, you said the word those conversations. I didn't have daughters.
So I don't know if it's different with a girl. I got no daughters either. I got one. But those conversations where you step into something that's a little tense, like the phone or whatever. Those are intimate.
And there's part of me that's like, I don't want that kind of intimacy. I'll just avoid it. And then we're good and we're smiling, and the moment's gone. And if I look back on regrets, it's like those moments when you feel the nudge of the spirit. I think it's spirit of God saying, step in here, and you don't.
We all know because we're old enough to know those are gone and they're gone forever. I just want to follow up on what you said about. That relationship with the Holy Spirit. Because a lot of times I think with the accountability partners piece of it, we tend to prioritize that relationship as the only source of accountability. For me, this relationship that we have with the Holy Spirit, the conviction piece.
The Spirit of God literally saying to me, Do you love your wife? And me looking in the mirror, I've done this, look in the mirror, do I love my wife? Then do something. You know, like it's this conviction that the Holy Spirit Just regularly does, routinely does.
So that's also part of what accountability looks like, I think. Yeah. Not just, let me call a friend, which is important, but I just don't want to minimize the Holy Spirit's work. And I think it's mainly when you're not listening. Holy Spirit told you a couple of times.
Okay, gotcha. You want to keep ignoring me? I got something for you. Yeah, that's good. All right, I want you to brag.
What? Because that's my specialty. Yeah, go for it. I'm here for it. Give me one, the best, or maybe two.
Things you've done right. Let's start with parenting. As a dad, I did this one right.
Well, I'm doing it right. I just started doing it right.
So yesterday? Yeah, again, back to what we were talking about earlier: the vulnerability piece, like confessing my sins to my children. You know, often we read that passage in James: confess your sins one to another. We don't think about the kids. You said real men, like real men.
Confess their sins. And you know what it says? Yeah. In James 5, you just quoted. Confess your sins to one another, so that what?
You pray for another and be healed. Yeah. I mean, it's like you confess your sins to God for forgiveness and you receive it. But the healing part, isn't that interesting? That it says it's a human being.
You don't hide that. And you're saying doing it with your kids. Doing it with your kids, which. It's a foreign concept to me, right? Maybe to most believers.
You know, we think of. Confessing to other adult men that are in this case. Hey, I want to hear from you guys on this one. But before we go there, I want to ask this from all three of you guys. Hey, and Bruce, we got the young dad.
Yeah, we got him. He's got plenty of sense. You can jump in on this too. I want to know this. Is there a.
Limit to the confession. Like, is there a question? Is there a line you shouldn't go over? I remember when our youngest was in the house and the other two were off to college.
So his name's Cody. He's sitting there as like a junior in high school. Nobody's at the table, so Ann, me, and Cody. Eddie looks at us like the first week and goes.
So, did you guys ever have sex before marriage? Oh, I'd answer that in a heartbeat. I would. You know, and I'm like, here it is. And I mean, we looked at Ann, like, I looked at her like, How honest should we be?
You know, I don't want him to go, oh, look where you are now.
So, no big deal. Or, you know, do I lie?
So, it was like, you know, how options.
So, I don't know. It doesn't want you to do it. I said, I got to go to the bathroom. Right. And what did she answer?
No, we were honest. We were honest. And that. That aspect of our life was before we're followers of Christ. Wow.
And after we became followers of Christ, it really became an issue: like, this has got to stop. And it did. And I wasn't even dating it at that time. But we started dating as we're believers.
So I told him the full thing. But there was a catch in my spirit. I've had other mentors say, No, you don't need to go there. Just keep some of that. You don't share everything.
So that's why I asked. There's some of us you have brothers you can ask and the Holy Spirit, but you got to decide how honest you're going to be. All right, go back. What did I say? Oh, Brad.
Brad. We're going back to bragging now.
Okay. I thought we were still on how much do I confess? You want to go there? I can go anywhere you want. Go there.
I want to hear what you guys think. I definitely think, I think the more that you can leave a vulnerability, I don't think you have to always give all the details, but I think I encourage a lot of dads, especially with pornography, when they start talking to their kids about it, like you've got to lead with your story because otherwise they'll own their own shame. And so it's like, how do I bring the shame into the light and realize that I'm not beholden? There is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. Until I can share my story, whatever that shame might be.
And obviously at age-appropriate times, but there's times where they need to hear it. Yeah. So I think being real, I think being real with, especially when you mess up with your wife or when you take her for granted or when you're having a yelling match, I mean, to be able to apologize in that moment and come back and say, I blew it. I blew it.
So I have the same answer for both those questions. I am. Extremely open with my kids.
So they know this. There's certain questions they want to ask me because they don't want the answer to. And I'm okay with that because I told them. And if they are too young to hear it, I'll tell them. I said, You're too young to hear it right now, but I will let you know one day.
And I think that leads to the one thing that I think I've done really well. That's something I've never had modeled, but I really wanted modeled in my own life is that I apologize to my kids when I'm wrong. That's really good. I do. And that is the hardest apology that I ever have to give.
Because, number one, they're my kids. Number two, I don't want to apologize to them. Why am I telling you sorry? I don't want to say sorry to you. Right.
You don't pay me. You should be listening to me. But no, but so if I feel like I've done them wrong. I will immediately apologize. How about I got one?
That hurts. I'll go. We hear enough about you, Dave. Um, no, I wasn't gonna tell mine. That's right, you're ready to brag again.
I get it. I like bragging. Yeah, I was gonna get in. I was gonna brag on my wife for a second. I think that we've done mundane well, and so much of life is just mundane.
You know, it's like most of like I was because I was about to say, Oh, we've done vacation, you know, we've done a couple vacations well, and it's like that. But I think the reality of just having dinner around the table five nights a week. I'm learning that right there. My wife loves that, and yes, I'm an extremely spontaneous person. Like, I'll wake up in the morning, like, okay, let's go on a trip.
She'll have fun with that, but she does not enjoy that. What brings her comfort and peace is the mundane. Yeah, and you guys do five nights a week when our kids weren't like off doing like a ton of like uh activity, like athletics and stuff like that. But in general, yeah, I would say four nights a week, I'd say pretty confidently four nights a week. We're having dinner together.
That's fine, that's good. Way to go, yeah, way to go. I think it's no, I think it's we do, but I think it's that's not everybody. But is there anything that's in your life that's like that consistent? And those dinners aren't, you know, magical.
I mean, we're still watching. Dishes, but that's the other thing I'd say: is just are you washing dishes? Are you doing chores together? Like, so much of life is mundane.
So, if you can do the mundane well, that's good. And I think your kids get into this.
Now, we have my daughter who's calling, and she's telling Jen, she's like, I'm going to surprise Connor now. They're newlywed, so everything's a surprise. I'm going to surprise him tonight by you know, showing a new candle and you know, whatever.
So, I don't want to hear all that right now, but she's like, Yeah, I'm going to surprise him with this meal tonight. And so, you just go, That's life, yeah, is around this table. There was a study, I don't know if you ever saw it, years ago, University of Michigan study that said, What are the commonalities in families that raise adult kids that turn out very, very healthy? You know what it was? Their conclusion was one thing.
Four nights a week after dinner. There we go.
Well, good. Man, I'm going to add that to my list. I'm doing something that's right.
Okay, we can go with it. I wasn't going to say I read the study. I just listened to my wife. No, we're going to be doing this. That's a fascinating.
You think about it. That's a fascinating answer. You're like, wait, I thought it would be. They taught this. They did this.
No, they sat around a table. They looked in each other's eyes. And I'll tell you what, this world we're living in, most families don't. Sports, different activities, which are all important. I remember when our three boys were playing high school football, Ann said, okay, you're not home at six o'clock.
We're waiting till 8 p.m. and we're having dinner together as a family. Hey, we're hearing from many pastors that couples in their churches aren't falling apart. But they're not really truly connecting either. And there's this quiet drift happening.
And I know you see it happen because we see it happen every week. And you know, marriages need support without making things complicated. If you've thought about running a marriage or parenting event, but didn't want to build everything from scratch, this is one of the simplest ways to do it.
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So let us help you take that step. All right, Bruce, we're throwing it into the sound control room, control room, yeah. We're throwing it into the control room. What do you got? He's good at that.
Yeah, man, I'm just thinking about the confession and the bragging, and what Brian said reminds me that it's kind of. You can get both. When we confess to our kids, we have no need to fear Oh no, this sin I'm about to confess is too big. You know what I mean? Like you're saying, we don't need to go into all the details, but there is no sin too big because you get to brag on Jesus.
It's like, yeah, kids, look how bad this sin was. You know, whatever it was. There is no need to fear because you can brag on Jesus and say, yeah, that sin was bad. But look at the savior we've got. Shame is gone.
Sin is gone. You know, we confess to that and we're free. And what a model that is to our kids. You know, who should bring a charge against God's elect? Nobody.
So we can say that freely. Pretty awesome. I only my oldest is 10, so so far the questions haven't been too hard.
So I can say that easily, but check back in another six years.
Well, you got I mean, you got at your age group, Bruce, you're all 10 and younger.
So what's been brag on something that you guys have any habits that you guys have that you do so many great stuff.
Well, it's mostly my wife. I mean, she's amazing. Brag on her and we'll know what you're doing. But she is cool.
So, you know, I'm getting ready in the morning. And I'm overhearing, you know, they're going through the New City Catechism, Why Did God Create Us? and all this stuff. And the girls are sitting there singing, you know. It's incredible to see their mom just bringing them up.
And Proverbs 31 talks about, you know, her husband, you know, this virtuous woman, her husband. Trusts in her. And man, what a beautiful thing to see her raising them up in the faith. I realized in during the COVID time that I cannot homeschool my kids. It is something I wanted to do.
And then she tried. Oh, I tried.
So, what would you guys say to a guy like Bruce? And I'm talking season of life.
Okay. They've got young kids. We all have older kids. You know, they want to do fathering well. They want to be the husband.
If you had a a thirty minutes with them at lunch, what would you say? One of the biggest lessons that I wish I would have learned earlier is that achievement is not everything. That was really, really hard for me to learn. As someone who is driven and who likes to accomplish things and knock things off of a list, Achievement is not everything because once you achieve it, sometimes I feel empty. I'm like, man, I did all this work to get here.
And if achievement isn't everything, what is there? We go.
So I think. It is learning about the journey and the process of bringing my family with me is what is. Actually, help me want to achieve more, but this time it's different. It's not me achieving for the sake of achievement. Is I want my family along with me.
I want my kids to see the things that I'm doing. Why? Because I want them to know that you can do these things. I want to do these things with my wife. Why?
So that when she looks back, she's like, Man, you know what? We did these things together. We did the same thing with school. My first degree is like, man, we did this together. Yeah, we sure did do this together.
I couldn't do it without you. Raising the kids, we do those things together. And it brings this cohesiveness to our family that they're like, man, if my dad can do these things, because they know where I come from, they know my history. And they're like, man, dad. And their favorite thing is to make fun of me.
They love it. They're like, Dad, I was never as bad as you. And I said, you're right. And don't try it. Don't try it.
But achievement by itself is not a, it's not everything. It's not everything because you can get there and still be lonely. Yeah. And the thing is, just bringing my family with me. And that's changed the whole game for me.
It's fun now. George, what about you? What would you say to a young dad? There's a lot of pressure to get this thing done right, right? Parenting.
Just trust God with your kids.
So yeah, be intentional about teaching your children. You're going to fail from time to time. Don't be so hard on yourself. Yeah, and learn from other good dads, you know. Failures baked in.
Failures baked in, you're going to fail. You're ready for that. It's okay. It's okay, yeah. It's okay.
Not to minimize sin, right? Oh, for sure. Because that's not okay. But the kids need to know: deal aggressively with your sin. Yeah.
Confession is a part of that. Yeah. But also, like, just get up, right? Righteous man falls seven times, but gets back up and. Yeah, just keep running this race, right?
It's a daily grind, and we have a hope. And I think that's like the beautiful gospel demonstration. Like, I demonstrate the gospel to my kids and that one before they thought I was perfect. Yeah. Ryan, you got one?
I think we're all hitting it in the same same sense. Like, there is no perfect parent. You think about who who is the most perfect father in all of Eternity, his father God, and look how his kids turned out. And I think for me, I would probably say, you know, we've already said a lot of good stuff about being intentional and confessing and really getting a few good habits. But I think some for me is just the perspective of my goal isn't just for my kids to make my life easier.
Yeah. You know, that my life will be better. And there is some great wisdom to, you know, the proverb talks about when you discipline your children, it will give their parents rest. Yeah, there is a lot of truth to that, and you want to be a good disciplined parent, but recognizing that they are working out their own sin. And so, do not be surprised when they break your heart because they will break your heart.
And they will. break it in ways that um That allow you to connect with the heart of the Father. Yeah. Because you think, how often does God feel this? If He truly loves us.
The way he says he does, and that he's a personal God. You can see how many times have I been waywarded there in my phone.
So you multiply that by billions. Yeah. And for God to be broken, I would just say it's like. It's going to happen. Yeah.
Feel the brokenness in your own heart. Feel the hurt, feel the pain. And then go, okay, then how do we move forward? And go, how do I love them in such a way that God loves me?
So something happened in you when you said that. You just, you just replay you pray the conversations where my daughter in college is just working on her own sinful nature. Yeah. And you get shocked. Man.
And you go, that's not how we raised you. Yeah. And that's not how you've presented yourself to us, and then you find out the real story. My son. in high school and Catching him with weed again.
Yeah. And How do you deal with in that moment? How do you bring him back to God? The goal isn't to make my life better in this moment, or to be embarrassed because of how he, you know, we got a call from a mom. basically outing one of our kids.
Wow. And man, you talk about embarrassing. Yeah. And you're starting thinking about your perception management, where in your ministry and all this kind of stuff, and you're feeling all that. And all you feel is anger.
Like, how could my kid do this to me? And it's like you got to move, you got to step back from that and go, we all do that. Yeah. Yeah. So now, how do I draw them back to God in this moment?
Still give them discipline. They got to have consequences, right? But my goal isn't to make my life better now and more orderly from what the chaos that they just brought in. My goal now is to move through that chaos and connect them to a savior. Yeah.
and leave that impression. Uh All right, another great day with these three guys. Man, I think this is some stuff that literally can change your legacy. And we're going to be back tomorrow. We're going to do one more day with these guys.
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Yeah.
