This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. We're grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. To learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Just thinking about the marks of friendship and what real friendship is, just apply that directly to marriage. And so, think: have I been expressing affection?
Do I let Christina know that I love her? And do I show that with my words, my actions, how I care for her? Does she know? in her bones that I love her. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.
I'm Dave Wilson. And I'm Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life today.
So, you remember Paul Early? Yes. A guy I met playing pickup basketball. Long story. Didn't really have a great home life, so he came and ended up living with a single guy, and now he's married with kids.
It's awesome. Unbelievable story. But he became a really close friend, probably. 30 years younger than me? 20 years younger than me?
Maybe 20.
So he's almost like a son. But one day we're in our kitchen. And Paul comes over and gives me this really tight hug. And his beard is right by my cheek. I watched this and you were so uncomfortable.
Yeah, and I remember he hugged me really tight. He said, Dave Wilson, I just, I love you. Thank you for impacting my life. And then he won't let go. And so he says, he goes, hey, This is making you uncomfortable, isn't it?
And I'm like, well, yeah, little ones.
So then he squeezes harder and he won't let go. He goes, You gotta, you gotta embrace this. This is just, you know, me saying you've been an important man in my life. And I'm like, uh, and I remember thinking, That really felt uncomfortable and I shouldn't be uncomfortable. Why do you think it was uncomfortable?
I think obviously, you know, my background is I never had a dad. My family never hugged. Your mom never killed her. Your mom kissed you on the lips all the time. Yeah, I thought it was, I always hated that.
You know, I liked it, but I didn't like it, especially when friends would come over and she kissed them. I just, it was uncomfortable, but I thought it shouldn't be uncomfortable. And Paul, a young man, was mentoring me, teaching me this shouldn't be that bad, you know, uh an uncomfortable thing. And I've as a man and even as a a father of sons, I've tried to be better. We walked into the studio this morning.
And Rick grabbed you and he hugged you real quick. He said, Let me give you an uncomfortable hug. And I'm like, Do you know what we're talking about today? He's going to be editing this program later. But we've got Drew Hunter in the studio for day two.
Drew, you know, he wrote a book about friendship, that we are actually created by God for friendship. You hear me talk about this. How does that hit you as a man? Is that something that's uncomfortable for you? The story you just shared?
Yeah, or some friend hugging you. Yeah. It's not anymore. I think it would have been at one time.
So you're more mature than me at a young age.
Well, I think I've just recognized how important encouragement, affirmation, honesty, expressed affection is for human relationships and for friendship and for men.
So that's actually, I think, probably the lack of those things is a reason, one of the reasons contributing to why friendships can stay so tepid and superficial because we don't have that kind of open honesty and transparency about how we actually. Yeah, which is actually It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Drew, you're a dad of four boys, and you're a pastor in Zionsville, Indiana. Your oldest son is 12.
So are you still hugging him a lot? Will there ever be a day that you won't? Oh, I hope not. Yeah. No, I want to have them filled with love and affection.
So tell them I love them often. Of course, want to express that in all of life. And yeah, plenty of big hugs. You know, we had your friend Dane Ortland on. Yep.
We've had him on several times on Family Life today. And we're going to play a clip because he, I don't remember what we were interviewing him about that day, but he makes a comment about this. Thing. It's pretty beautiful. I'd love to hear your thoughts because you know Dane, you know, is one of my closest friends.
Yeah, so it'd be fun for you to hear this clip. I'm 43. My dad is 72.
Okay. To this day. When I walk into my parents' home, in Franklin, Tennessee. He gives me a big hug. Maybe it lasts a few seconds too long.
I'm kidding. It's a real hug. Like most of the men at my church. When I give them a hug, We're both kind of like, okay, let's release really fast here before this gets awkward. Give a good hug.
And like you're communicating, I have sincere affection for you. Yeah, that's, I mean, I resonate with that. And I've hugged Dane many times and he's a man actually who models encouragement, expressed affection better than most people I know. And he's, he's modeled that for me really well also.
So I like the legacy of his dad doing that. And then he's just carried it on. Yeah. And it's a picture too that as I think about my boys, I'm their father. But ideally, what father-son relationships can turn into and mother-daughter, mother-children, father-children is into friendship, right?
As they grow older, obviously nothing's ever going to change about the parent dynamic, nor should it. But a layer added to that. Is friendship. And so that's what Dane's expressing with his dad as well.
So I look forward to my boys growing into my closest friends as well over time. I led a Bible study with the Detroit Lions wives for about 35 years. And there was this one woman, Yvonne, that she would host this Bible study. And the Bible study for the women kept growing and growing. And I was watching Yvonne, and every time someone would come in the door, and mind you, these women are from all over the country.
They don't know each other, but they would walk through the door and Yvonne would have this huge smile. She'd see them, and she's from Hawaii. And so every time she'd kiss them on the cheek, she would hug them. And everyone felt like, oh, this is the best place in the world. And they wanted to be her friend because of her open affection and love for them.
Yeah, I was interested. I was thinking the same thing. During that sort of season of our ministry with the Detroit Lions, we had a quarterback come into our locker room. And, you know, honestly, in a NFL locker room is not a place of a lot of hugs unless you're winning. You know, after a game, there's a lot of hugs.
Not so much in Detroit, but there was this one quarterback, Josh McCown. Oh, yeah. And he was such a lover of people. He was a joybringer. He reminds me a little bit of Dane, actually.
Yeah, he does. He's a man of God, a man of the word. And he came in just in Detroit one season, then was traded into another team, played in the NFL like 15 years. And another quarterback came in the same year, John Kittna. and that was our starter and our back up.
Those two men of God Had this unique ability in our locker room. I used to comment about that year. It's like the whole locker room tilted toward their lockers because John was this strong man of the word. He had a Bible as big as his table in his locker. And Josh was a man of the word as well.
And yet he had this tender, loving, affectionate love for the men. We baptized 27 players that season. And they were really good friends. They were great friends. But as I think about that season, I think a lot of it was John's strong, courageous commitment, but Josh's tender love for the locker room.
Like when I say the locker room was leaning toward their lockers, they were drawn over there like a magnet. And it was this friendship thing you're talking about, that we're made for friendship. And even NFL macho men who you think don't want friendship, they are little boys inside that are longing for another man to see them and acknowledge them. And want to have a relationship with them. Is that what God designed us for?
Is that what you've seen? Yeah, absolutely. And even your story reminds me that this isn't for like certain personality types. It's not like, oh, well, that guy's good at friendship. Yeah.
That's for him. Or, oh, he's really good at encouraging people.
Well, sure, some people can be way out in the lead doing it well, but Romans 12 says, outdo one another in showing honor, right? That's expressing esteem for one another. That's what it means to show honor. And every Christian is called to, I mean, in any room we're ever in. Will walk out and someone will have won.
They will have outdone everyone else in showing honor. Every Christian is called to pursue being that person who not like we need to feel like we're better than people, right? But there is a godly sense of competition in the sense that. In every gathering, someone's going to have shown the most honor to others, and we should all be striving to do that. And so some people are better than others, but we shouldn't see that as, well, that's just their thing.
That's not comfortable for me. We all can grow into, and I just think there's so many cultural influences that keep people and men from being able to look another man in the eye and say, I love you and I respect you. And, you know, let me tell you something that I appreciate about you that you did for me. I don't know if you noticed I even knew that, but that really meant a lot to me. That kind of sharing, it's been very rare in our culture.
And I think we shouldn't take that as just reflective of what the way the world should be. This is the way it is right now, but how it should be is expressing honor, affirmation, encouragement. In fact, I read a book called The Overflowing of Friendship. By a historian who was just studying letters between men in the early founding era of America. And he says he reads the letters to his students now and their jaws drop because they can't imagine what it would be like to have this kind of affection and encouragement expressed to one another.
Because in our world, we've so sexualized relationships that we just assume if you're saying really kind, affectionate things to one another, there must be something else going on. And he just says, not at all. There is not a hint of that in these letters and in these relationships. This is just men. Expressing love and affection and care for one another.
And we see that in David and Jonathan. We see that in the Apostle Paul. Yeah, I mean, they kiss each other probably on the cheek with a cultural greeting. They're crying when they leave each other.
So the Bible calls us, all Christians, to encourage one another. What's the culture, Dave? We were somewhere where the men, wherever they go, they hold hands. Yeah, there's there's places like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's true when I've been in the bush in Africa, they do that, and it's just a community. Yeah, just nothing sexualized about it at all. It's right, it's exactly what you just said. I know that in the last few years, the guys that I have friendships around the country, some of them former NFL Detroit line guys, when we hang up, it's always, hey, love you. Yep.
And, you know, 20 years ago, it didn't say that, but it's like, that's a good thing to say to a friend. Yes. You know, and obviously as a dad to your children, but it's a good thing. And I want to hear you talk about your subtitle, How a Friend Doubles Our Joy and Halves Our Sorrow. Yeah.
Talk about that. Yeah. So that line is somewhat modified from J.C. Ryle, who put it similarly. And he was kind of picking up a phrase that through history was kind of rolling through the ages.
And the way that he put it is he says, this world is a dark place. It's a lonely place. It's a disappointing place.
So he's just recognizing the reality of sin and sadness in our life. But then he says, the brightest sunbeam in it. Is a friend. Friendship halves our troubles and doubles our joys. And so, what I love about that is both its realism.
Life is hard. We all know this: lonely, disappointing. But then, God has He shines the light in, and the brightest beam. is friendship. Which is If that's true, and I think it is, both friendship with the Lord Jesus and one another, then I want in on that.
And then the benefits of that is this having our troubles and sorrows, so cutting those in half, and then doubling our joys. That's been my experience. Any burden I'm going through. If I'm going through it with someone who knows me and loves me. Just even them caring about me through this lifts the load off my shoulders, cuts it.
I mean, I've been through stuff in my life where I think if I didn't have those close friends with me, I don't know how that would have turned out or what I would have done. There's no way I could have gotten through that. And then doubling the joys, everything is better in life with friends. I mean, there's so many experiences in life that I've had where if you remove friends from those experiences, and you can say, Well, that was great. You went to this place, you saw those mountains, you experienced that.
Yeah, but if you take my friends out of that experience, I wouldn't be talking about it as an amazing memory. It's friendship that doubles those joys and just makes life better. Better.
So, when you ask me what's best in life, I'm going to start naming people for you because that's what's best in life. That's really good. I'm thinking about Michelle, and I have some really pretty amazing friends. And Michelle happens to have a shepherding gift too. But when my sister died, I walked into my house after the funeral, and my house was full of flowers everywhere, and scripture everywhere.
And I think of how just she was there. Yeah. She was there sitting, listening, being there, sending me scripture. And then when I turned 40, this is pretty remarkable. Do you remember this, Dave?
She contacted 40 friends. And now, if there's 40, no, they're not super, super close, but 40 friends of mine. And so for 40 days before my birthday, she had someone give me a gift for 40 days. It was the most amazing birthday ever. But a friend is thinking about you.
And that's what I thought. Like, she's thinking about me. The day before each one of our sons got married. It's going to be me, Terry. She would always give me this long letter of how she saw me parent that son and how she was inspired by it.
And I think back on some of the greatest moments of my life, it was Michelle creating these incredible times. I don't think, as you said, like my life has been so much richer with her. And Dave, like, he's my best friend. But I also need other women beside me. Yeah, when her sister died.
I did the funeral in a different state. He was in Georgia. And I mean, it was obviously she's forty-four, she had four boys, it was quick cancer thing, so it was a horrible day. And, you know, I'm the pastor in the family, so I'm standing up in front of her. her four boys and her husband and Ann's dad.
I mean, it's just, you know, you're looking at all these people in your family. And all of a sudden the back door of the church we're some church in Atlanta area, actually Tennessee area. Fulton. And the back door of the church opens and what, five or six of our closest friends from Michigan. Wow.
I mean right before the funeral I'm like What are you doing here? One of our friends who has a private jet flew him down. He contacted them and said, you need to be there with David Ann because you're their closest friends. And what you said, there was sorrow, but somehow that halved it. You know, it was just so good to have community in the middle of a valley.
That's what you're talking about. Yeah. You know, your story about your friend having those 40 notes reminds me too, Christina, who. To your question earlier, if I have a best friend, it's actually her. Your wife, yeah, not the only friend, but best friend.
And I turned 40, and she contacted a number of my friends and had them just write a note to me, yeah, just expressing some memory or some appreciation. And then she compiled into a little book. And I was actually having kind of a rough day. You know, turning 40 hit me in ways I wasn't prepared for it. It's a hard one, isn't it?
It is. And I usually do a pretty good job, like anticipating things, watching other people go through things. I'm not kind of caught off guard, but it did hit me and it was hard. And then I opened that book and started reading. And I mean, I was in tears.
It took a while to get through it, but it was so meaningful and actually just gave me so much hope for the next 10 years to think so many of these rich relationships I have and the memories they shared were from the past 10 or 15 years. And the next 10 or 15, Lord willing, can be just as rich.
So it's really. Meaningful, and then gives, it's added so much. And that's the joy in life, right? What God gives us through the people. Hey, let me just pause and say this.
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So here's the question: Will you join us today? I hope your answer is yes. And if it is, go to familylifetoday.com. You can click the donate button right there and become a part of the monthly partner program. Talk about being a consumer friend in that consumer friendship.
What's that mean? Yeah. So, if you kind of contrast consumer friendship with we could call committed or covenantal friendships, so David and Jonathan make a covenant of friendship. I don't think that we all need to make covenants of friendship, but it gets it something that's a contrast with how friendship is normally experienced by some people.
So, consumer friendship is the idea that your friendship is there to be used by you, right? When you want something from them, you can go to them. And so, people, networking is huge today, right? But people can. Turn friendship and make networking and friendship the same thing in their life.
They just see everyone as a potential for something else, using for a good time. And when things get hard in that person's life, then they don't show up. They aren't going to call them because they're not deep and connected and they haven't. Had a relationship that would be comfortable stepping in in hard times or suffering.
So that's consumer friendship. It's like consuming goods. When they're useful, you have them. When they're not, you discard them and you move on. And then, and Proverbs talks about that, talking about how often people treat people with money.
The rich have many friends, the poor have their friends even leave them, right? That's consumer friendship. Covenantal or committed friendship means, like Proverbs 17 says, a friend loves at all times, and a brother's born for adversity.
So even in the hardship. You don't forsake your friend. In fact, Proverbs says, Do not forsake your friend or your father's friend. In the context of that proverb is calamity coming into someone's life.
So your friend loses his job. gets diagnosed with cancer. um sinks into depression. What do you do?
Well, Proverbs says the one thing you can't do is forsake them. You move close. You express solidarity with them in that. I remember I was going through a really hard time at one point. And in fact, Dane, he knew I was going through this hard time, and he just showed up.
One day at your door, I was actually at my church. He just Sunday drove by and just stood next to me or stood behind me, gave me a hug, and then we had lunch. And then he went back because he just knew I was having a hard time in life. And so he just showed up. I'll never forget that.
Deeply meaningful.
So that's a covenantal friend. That's a committed friend in the good times and the bad times, expressing love and solidarity and staying with that person.
So Job's friends are a bad example in so many ways, but they had a decent start, it looks right. They showed up, they sat with him, you know, they wept with him. And then they said things. And then they maybe don't say things if you don't know what to say. How do, you know, as I'm thinking of a husband and wife, because you talk about you and Christina are great friends.
Ian and I are great friends. How do you build a great friendship in your marriage? Yeah. So because not a lot of marriages have that. Right.
Yeah. So maybe a first step is if you recognize you don't have it, just acknowledge that together and just speak openly about what you wish it could be and own your own shortcomings in that.
So I think just thinking about the marks of friendship and what real friendship is, just apply that directly to marriage. And so think, have I been expressing affection? Do I let Christina know that I love her? And do I show that with my words, my actions, how I care for her? Does she know?
In her bones, that I love her. And it's obvious that I do. Not, well, you know, sometimes you're like, I know he loves me, but you know, it's like, well, that's, that's. You need to feel it. It needs to be obvious.
Communication, transparency is a mark of friendship.
So, just speaking openly and honestly about our own weaknesses and shortcomings. 1 John 1:7. Calls us to walk in the light, right? Walk in the light as he is in the light.
So that's not walking in perfection. The context of that is actually just walking in honesty. It's coming out of hiding.
So is there some sin in your life or collection of sins or struggles that you have that you don't bring to your spouse? Walking in the light is coming out of hiding, out in the light. And what What 1 John 1:7 says is out there is real forgiveness, felt forgiveness, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness, and real friendship. Fellowship with one another.
So, felt forgiveness, real friendship in marriage happens through walking in the light together, confessing sin, being open, knowing each other, not treating each other as a consumer either, but a committed covenantal friend, caring for each other and serving in those ways. I mean, Jesus is the perfect friend. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
So, love is affectionate, committed, self-sacrificial.
So, serve in love. Confess and apologize when you don't. Be quick to apologize, quick to repent, quick to forgive. I mean, go on and on, but all these things that friendship needs need to be in there as well. And so taking the first step is owning your own part of that and seeing that you're the problem.
I like thinking about that conversation with a husband or a wife of saying, I'd love us to be even better friends. What do you think that could look like? Or what could we do to become better friends? And I would add one more. Have fun together.
Totally. You and Christina are about to have a few days together of just having fun. Right. And that is another thing that kind of a magnet. It draws you close to one another.
That's fun. This has been great. Yeah. And I would just end with this: listening to what you just said, Drew, and reading your book. I am such a blessed man because my best friend is sitting right here.
You're my best friend. No, you are such a great friend. You are too. You love me, speak truth to me. I am so thankful.
And I'm sure you feel the same way about Christina. And not all men or spouses get that. Right. But you can work. Everybody can.
You got to work. You can get there. And God wants you to have it, but it's on us to pursue it and do the marks of. friendship that you talked about. What a great day with Drew Hunter talking about friendship and community and the power of relationships.
By the way, the book again is called Made for Friendship: The Relationship That Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys. Does that make you want to have more friends? I get enough. You just need a few, you don't need a thousand. That's true, but it's just so good, and you can get your copy.
By just clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. I'll tell you what. A lot of people don't know this, but we're on YouTube. I love watching YouTube clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you're watching YouTube.
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