This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. And we're just grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. And to learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Hi. When I start to look to David to bring me all my joy or to be the one who sees me first, he's.
He's amazing and he does see me really well so much of the time when I let him see what's there. But he isn't Jesus. And he wasn't made to meet those places in me the way that the Lord can. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.
And I'm Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life today. I'm excited that David and Meg Robbins are back with us today. We got into some heavy stuff today. We got into some deep stuff that we're going to get into even more today.
Yeah, so let's go. Yeah, this was. You know, just five or six years ago, where we were experiencing a significant wedge in our marriage while, and we were feeling like we were getting further and further apart while we were leading family life. I mean, this is, you know, a real-time thing. Yeah.
And it was just all these little things that just kept adding up. You know, we had mold in our home, pushing us out. We had things happening with our parents. But I said, you know, because we, but we were feeling emotionally distant, you know, and I said, I just feel like that I keep handing you this rose of here's how I'm really doing. This is like a reflection of my heart.
I'm trying to let you in, which is fragile. Which is fragile. Yes. And I'm giving it to you. And in the moment, you are so attuned to me.
You're listening. You're asking me questions. And I feel like we are connecting. And I feel so seen and, you know, it's reciprocal. And then it's like you, you look at it and you set it over here and it just kind of drops it over on the side of the bed.
And I'm, then, you know, later I hand you a new one. And same thing. It's like they just. Or fall, there's a whole pile of dead roses over there on the side. You're not picking them back up or putting them in any water, revisiting the rose.
Like, how is that going? And I would say that was an appropriate way to communicate, though, because it helped me get a word picture of how she really felt.
Now, was it hard to hear? Absolutely. But you better believe I went the next morning to Ephesians 5 and wrote in the margin. Pile of dead roses. Did you really?
I did. Yeah. And share what Ephesians 5 said. That as a husband, we are to love our wives and to sacrifice for her like Christ did for the church. And I'm just, it was my own up moment where I thought that was actually a pretty tender way.
That wasn't pile on. That wasn't unleashing. That's good. It was a visual picture, which, again, you know. Two women with two different personalities, every person You know, every man and woman listening has to go, okay, what are my tendencies?
Where do I end up saying too many words? Or where do I hold back? You know, you got to know yourself and process with the Lord.
So I think, you know, that's the way you all set it up, which I think that's the most important thing. Say what Jesus invites you to share as you process. With him because he's with you in it. Whatever hole you find yourself in or wedge you find your in your marriage, like Jesus is with you in it. And he's a God who restores and reconciles.
This is what he does. Yeah. And so I was grateful you said that ended up sending us on a journey of getting out of the way. Yeah, what did you do, David?
So I wrote it in my journal the next day. Yeah. Well, we went, we actually went to a marriage intensive. We got away for five days and we dove deep with two counselors. You know, that's not an option for everyone, but it, we, you know, asked around and we went and said, let's go after this.
I think one of the things I learned. processing that was um and this isn't a a trick This is something that, as someone who goes, goes, goes. It's actually given to me in context of my kids, but I feel like it relates to marriage. In the movie Inside Out, there's that scene where the little girl, the daughter, had run away. They had moved to San Francisco.
She was hating life. Everything had changed. The movie does a great job of talking about how emotions inside of us go crazy. And she had returned. you know the dad was all busy at work and the you know the mom was in transition And they were missing their daughter and what she was processing.
And there's this scene where they communicate what's true. They see each other, they have this honest moment, and they hug. And then the little girl sighs. That's all it is. It's one little sigh.
And this mentor of mine was actually played the video clip for me to go, David, you don't stop long enough to just, let's say it's with your wife, with your kids. Just, okay, we understand enough right now, but. Whoof. We've connected enough for now to go the next day where we know we're on the same team. Let's move forward.
And those were days where we were experiencing this wedge. We had a lot to process as we were. you know, getting on the same page and reconciling some things. But there would be multiple moments to where I was prioritizing. It was this visual picture for me to not just come home and serve and do the dishes and do all the things.
Cause that's what I, as an activator, I was like, oh, I got to just do it all. And I'm like, she doesn't want me to do, yeah, she wants me to help some, but she wants me to like. Connect. Connect and pick up the roses and go, we're holding them and we're not necessarily solving them right now. And she, that's actually, she didn't want me to, she wanted me to stop solving for a moment because that's what I can do when I feel behind and the dead roses have piled up.
Just, okay, you know where we're at. That means a lot. Yeah. And those were some victory moments of just going, okay, I can, as a driver and, you know, mover and activator, I could go, that was forward motion that she knows I get where she's at and I see where we're at together. And those are little micro moments that really helped us move forward.
I feel like. I'm more aware. Of how dependent I need to be on the Lord when it comes to being a mom. Like parenting my kids, it's so much more obvious. I don't know what to do.
What do I say? Or Lord, I open my eyes to see things that I'm not aware of in their heart or in their life. But I think in our marriage, sometimes I can feel like, okay, we've. It's been. You know, a long time.
We know these things, like why, and I forget, like, okay, Lord, I need to be dependent on you. Your Holy Spirit is with me. You will show me even just what am I feeling that I need to communicate, or where are the places where I need a word picture, and you can give me what I need in that moment, or how do I make this? More. I mean, has there been any struggle?
Because we've had this, and I think it applies to any couple, but. Ministry and marriage separating them. Like you both are. Right. You're the president, but you're really both in this.
Yeah. And we've struggled with that. We sat down with Julie Slattery on the cruise and, you know, we had a conversation with she and Mike. It's like, ministry becomes our life. And it's like our marriage is in it.
And so there's been times where Ann and I feel like we're business partners, not husband and wife. Have you ever struggled with that? And how do you navigate that? You know, the first thing that comes to my mind is that's been our story for a long time. It's like we led together on our very first team when we went to Europe and led a campus team to serve at the University of Pisa, Italy.
And so. That was sorting some things out then. And there were all sorts of ways I missed in that first time. And yet we were chipping away. And Ruth Haley Barton says this: this whole conversation was bringing me, brought this up.
It is by God's grace that we are given the opportunity to face ourselves before the stakes get any higher, to believe what needs to be done in the deep, interior places of our life is the most important work that can be done right now. Because all of life, I mean, I think about you with adult kids and now grandkids, like it's just multiplying. Life does not get simpler. Yeah. And yet.
Every moment is this opportunity to go, okay, He is preparing us for something, and whatever gets exposed is an opportunity to look at right now to say, God, you want to restore this and grow me now, and you're always growing me for something you have in the future, and so. The way you asked it is like, I don't, we're still growing, it's still so active. But I look back and go, man, Lord, you've. You've tipped away at so many things of hardness in my life, how much I need to be independent. I think that's one of the ways is.
I still am prone when I'm in a new situation Could go self-sufficient and independent. And this partner in ministry that God has blessed me with, and you know, if you're not in ministry, it could be, you know. Things that you're sharing, passions for your kids, or hobbies that you have, I can be so prone to just go on my own and go, let me figure this out before I invite you along, or I don't know.
So let me just drive ahead instead of the gift of. Doing it with someone with Emek has amazing discernment gifts, and yet sometimes I don't bring her in because I'm just like, I got to chart the course, and Lord's with me, I know, but I'm like, man, He's given me a partner to do this with, and sometimes I run ahead, and I feel like that's something this year and a half. We keep right-sizing and checking and going, Whoop, I've run ahead, let's step back in, step together. Because ultimately, that's the invitation. Galatians 5:25.
Just as we live by the Spirit, let's stay in step with the Spirit. Staying in step with the Spirit allows us to go, okay, God. Let me recognize when I'm out of rhythm with you. Get back in step with you. And that is an invitation to get back in step with your spouse and to go, okay, you're going to convict me first, how I'm out of step.
And then that can overflow and just.
Okay, hey Meg, I... I feel like I've run ahead again. Like he invites you into your home patterns. You know, we grow, but yet it circles back into very common situations often. I tell you what, one of the best things we ever do for a marriage.
It's get away. That's true. Focus and work on our relationship, and we don't want to do it. It's hard to get on this calendar, but when we do. We grow and our marriage gets better.
You know what, though? You know, it really goes along well with that getaway is something that's cheap or that's on sale. Yeah, we're talking about the Weekend Remember Family Life's Marriage Getaway, and it's 40% off right now if you sign up. And I tell you, you don't want to miss this deal. It's Friday night through Sunday morning.
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So visit weekend to remember.com. There's no promo code needed. Again, that's weekendtormember.com to get that sale. Is there a place, and I guess I'm asking the wives, where. You need your husband to understand, hey.
I'm more than your ministry partner over here. I'm your wife. You know what I'm saying? I think Anne has felt that at times. Have you ever felt that?
And I think it can happen in a guy in business or whatever. It's like, hey, we're walking into a business meeting. You're coming to this thing. Be my trophy. Make me look good rather than I'm your wife.
I'm your husband. I want our marriage to be hot, not just our job or our ministry. You know what I'm saying? For sure. And I think, on like a super practical level, even just because.
We are in this together. I mean, sometimes it can be hard to even have good boundaries of like, okay, you can just talk and talk and talk about awesome things. It doesn't even have to be like the frustrating points of things we're trying to figure out. But, you know, it's like, okay, but how do we find outlets? I remember when we first, when I first joined staff with crew, someone saying to me, okay, ministry is a job that is never really ends, you know, so everybody's always in process.
Discipleship is always ongoing. There's always more people who don't know Jesus.
So find outlets and activities that have a start and an end, like hobbies or whatever. And, you know, at the time, I, you know, I think I used to probably paint to do that, just something artistic. But I do feel like that even in our marriage, like we have to find some things that we can do that are completely unrelated to what we do together in ministry.
So we like to play tennis or pickleball with our family. Or, you know, going for walks. And sometimes that means we're talking about things. Maybe it's the kids, maybe it's ministry, maybe it's we say, hey, this, let's just connect with each other. And I think it's like having intentional time to say, okay, I want to.
Know how you are. Because, yeah, I think when you're working together or and maybe it's you're running a family business together, it's easy to talk about those things all the time. And you just have to carve out time to say, Hey, let's guard this time. And I mean, to me, that makes me feel more It's your sigh. Yeah, it's the sigh.
I keep going back to the Inside Out movie because I'm such a visual person. But I was thinking this whole time: like, what makes me sigh? To you, that's like a connection. You're connecting again, and it's like, ah.
So true. But I also think too, and Dave, I think for each of us, like, what would make me sigh? What would make you do that? You're saying a sigh is. A relief.
It's a good feeling like a sense of connection that may not solve everything, but I've been seen, I've been heard, I'm known. We're teammates. We'll move forward together. Together. No, I know what mine is.
When Ann says... Yes, you're my priority, and the kids and the grandkids aren't. Not that they aren't. But I'm one or one A or one B. They're next in line.
That's the season we're in is, you know, the kids are, like David just said, it gets more complicated. No, when she chooses to say yes to me and that might mean a no to them. Because we've had this conversation and I'm exaggerating, but I've felt like it's always a yes to them. And it's not always a yes for me. And it's just the stage of life we're in, but she's an unbelievable.
I never can imagine anybody being a better grandma. She is fully there and they love her and they just, you know, Nani, can you come over? Yep. Like, I love her. I'm watching a movie right now.
Or we're going to go on a date. We can do that later. And so I feel that sometimes. I don't know if husbands feel that, but I think whether it's grandkids or something else, when your spouse says you're number one, that's for me, that's a sigh. What about you guys?
I think one thing for me that we've set in our schedule that we learned the hard way is that with. You know, sports at night and different things that come up. It's like the date night at our phase of life was a mirage, you know, and we would, we were family life presidents. It's like a t-shirt analogy. And, you know, like, man, we, we do this, we do date night.
Well, no, we don't because something always comes up. A basketball game or a ministry event. I mean, that's our date night hole, you know. And so we decided: hey, some people may struggle with slothfulness and laziness, and they need to talk to the Lord and say, What's for you? For that, was, you know, as Meg would like to say, David, no one's ever going to say you work too little, you know, and just whatever's inside of me, good, bad, ugly.
And so Friday lunches we set aside for us. And we may connect a little bit before on, hey, what are we going to say on family life today? What's the topic? Let's, you know, text David Ann and Bruce. Right.
Then we shut her down and we connect with one another. And for Meg, you know, when she's in flow at the busyness of a week. And you know. You know, yeah, we may talk about the kids some, but we try not to talk about the kids the whole time, and she chooses not to. You know, we may connect on work a little bit, but I choose not to talk about work during that time the whole time.
That's part of who we are, but we keep it as part of who we are. And we really look each other, you know, in the eyes and connect over: okay, where are we? And all I know. is that that priority Which both of us have to keep that a priority, or else it will go away. There's always things to do and cram in at the end of a week on a lunch.
And sometimes we have to forego it. We try to keep it, and it is something that makes that. I'm just like, I'm okay. I'm. I'm centered.
Things are right. We've said what we needed to say. And it really helps me. And I think sometimes we even will say, oh, let's talk about that on Friday. You know, like we know it's there, and it's on the calendar every week.
I would say. With travel and other things, it's probably Twice a month it happens. For sure, we make sure it happens, you know? Yeah, I mean, I think for me, that would probably be the same in this season. But I think it's what you said earlier.
You know, it's just for me, it's. Definitely just not just having the time on Friday, but knowing that. He has let me in to where he really is, and I'm letting him in and just like being seen. And I think too, you guys, the thing that I kept thinking about was: I can't do that sigh with Dave. As well, until I've done it with Jesus.
Because the person that really brings us, I mean, Matthew 11, come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. When I spend time with him and I lay all of my burdens at his feet and all the things I'm carrying, that is the best sigh. Like, oh, you've got it. You're in control. You're with me.
You know me, which then helps me when I go to Dave. It's like, oh, you're not my person that fills me up all the way. It's Jesus. And now I can sigh and be content because we're a team and God's got us. That's big for me for sure.
Yeah, here's one last question. And maybe you've already answered it, but I'm thinking: how do you keep romance? Like would you say, here we go, let's do this, scale one to 10. How's the how's the romance in your marriage? How are you roaming?
Should we get to answer at the same time or she goes first, right? Are you okay, Matt? Are you okay? On a count of three, give me a number: one, two, three. Eight.
Nine. All right. I feel like it's 10, but I was just, you know, yeah. Oh, wait, wait, did you say higher than me? If you said 10, you'd be like.
I think I was self-protecting, Dave. I did say higher than me. I truly do think that having a consistent. Date is how in the world for sure. That definitely is just that sacred space that we have.
And I think that is a huge part of that. What about the couples right now that are listening that have all toddlers? None of their kids are in school. Right. How do they connect and get that aha?
Hire a babysitter. I mean, I really is at all possible. I mean, then, or a family member, or you know, trade times with somebody else. Yeah. I mean, if you don't have a teenager or a college student you can hire, then find another couple.
And even if it's once a month, I mean, start somewhere.
So we, our first child had a lot of physical medical needs. And so it was hard at first to leave him. But I will never forget one of my just mentor moms saying, like, he will be okay for a couple of hours. Like, you guys need to connect. And he was.
He was fine. And, you know, I know it's different for everybody, but I would say those. Those were never wasted, even if it was an hour and a half. You know? It's so funny, Meg.
My pediatrician, when I took our firstborn in for their monthly check, she said, Okay, I want you to put on your calendar. Mm. By the time you come next month, I want you to have had a date night. That in my life. What a holistic people.
What a culture. That's awesome. I know. And I was like, oh, and you know, I was like so desperate and tired. Like, oh, okay.
So I got my calendar out and I was like, okay, we need to do this. Such good advice. And one thing I think about in those early days that we didn't always do well, but. I look back and I go, man, I would dial it up even more. Is in the survival mode, go do playful things that make you laugh or get you.
I mean, laugh. Life is so serious. You know, so go do something that's uncomfortable or go to a comedy show. I mean, truly laugh together or do playful things that. Make you exercise or whatever.
You know, when you're exhausted and you go, let's go to a fancy dinner and look at each other and be serious and disclose. I mean, yes, you need to connect, but there's something about all the endorphins of laughter or playfulness, physical activity. What can happen on a walk after you, you know? Do something silly. There's science in our brain that allows you to connect and go to the places we need to go to.
And I'm a pretty serious guy. I feel like I learned that a little late, but I'm grateful for the ways when I learned that, how to start tapping into that. That's good. That's pretty exciting to hear a couple that's in a high-stress job. You guys are leading a major thing.
And a lot of our listeners have high-stress jobs, even if they're, you know, on in a factory. I mean, there's just high stress we bring home. And for you guys to say an eight and a nine on romance, that means you can do it even when life is crazy. Because God is an intimate God and He wants our work and vocation to flow out of intimacy with Him and one another. And at the same time, It Took the learnings and the failures in order to establish a rhythm of a Friday because we sure did try a lot of different ways.
And it sure used to be a two at certain points when there was a wedge in our relationship. And we might have a totally different answer in three weeks, you know? Or tomorrow, who knows, you know? But you didn't give up. You kept figuring it out.
Yeah. And again, we can end here because we all know this. Every marriage drifts. We talk about it the weekend and remember. Toward isolation.
Oneness is a choice. You don't drift toward oneness. You have to move there. Absolutely. What you're doing on Fridays is a choice to say, we said no to a lot of other things to make sure this happens.
And here we are saying an eight and a nine. You know, so if there's a couple listening, we can't get there. Yeah, you can. You're going to have to take one little. Step at a time, and you gotta make their hard choices.
It is hard choices, but I do want to reiterate, and said it a minute ago. I think all everybody has said it, but I think so much of that does flow out of keeping our eyes fixed on the Lord. And the moment that I start, yes, when I start to look to David to bring me all my joy or to be the one who sees me first, he's. He's amazing and he does see me really well so much of the time when I let him see what's there. But he isn't Jesus.
And he wasn't made to meet those places in me the way that the Lord can. But I have to go to him first. And you said it, and I just want to reiterate it because it's so true. I think that. You know, biggest secret of all.
It is not a secret. It's true. That's right. Guys, thanks. Come back.
So fun to be with you guys. Thank you for having us. Let me just say this. We meet a ton of couples who say family life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a family life partner is all about: helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.
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