Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Uh If you're approaching any disagreement like something, one of you is going to win, one of you is going to lose, you both have lost. Because in marriage, you're on the same team, you're in the same huddle, you're going to win together or lose together. And we had to really realize that.
This isn't one of us winning, one of us losing. Like, we need to find a way that both of us can win every time. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com.
This is Family Life Today. Every marriage, every family has something they bring in, and it's called conflict. Every relationship at some point has confrontations and conflict, right? Oh, yes. That's why you're here.
You're the experts on this. We deemed you experts. We chose you out of everybody in the world. You two are our experts. That's right.
We look to you. We just learn from you guys, and then we plagiarize what you say, and we go out into the world and we try to say in a slightly different way. That's pretty much what we do. Dave and Ashley Willis, our friends, are here, and we're going to have a great conversation because every couple needs to know. What do we do when we're in this room?
Every couple has conflict. Very few know how to resolve it. Exactly.
So one of the first things that we learned, and we didn't learn until after we were married, and we should have known this before, but you bring in a style, you bring in a pattern of how you do conflict into your marriage. Oh, sure. What are yours?
Well, I kind of put Dave through the ringer out of the gate.
Okay. What's so funny?
So Dave and I met in a communications class because we both were communications majors. You guys are. You have a lot of similarities. We really do. We really do.
We're basically the same person. Oh, my goodness. No, we have a lot of differences too. We have a lot in common, but there are a lot of differences. There are a lot of differences.
But we met in communications class. Dave's a couple years ahead of me, but we kind of were naive in thinking, oh, well, we have degrees in communication. We don't need to like pay attention in our premarital class on communication, right? And that God just bursts that bubble real fast because very soon into our marriage, I realized that. Our dynamic wasn't working because what I would do is play mind games with Dave.
Like, I was of the belief that if he loved me enough, he would figure out my cues and just know what I needed and wanted. That always works. And I did, I did like Jedi Mind games. It was like weary. It was weary.
It was horrible. I would do that. I didn't blame Hallmark for that. Because in all of the Hallmark movies. The girl falls in love with the sexy lumberjack from her hometown and that guy always knows what she's thinking.
It's like he just knows. And then girls watch the Hallmark movies and they're like, well, Chad from the Hallmark movie would know what I'm thinking. I thought he would be like Chad. And so like, I, I just would, like, Dave would be very sweet and come to me. And like, let's give an example.
He would be like, hey, the guys are getting together to watch the game on Thursday night. Are we doing anything? Like, you know, because I just wanted to check in with you to see if that'd be okay. And I would just look at him. I would give him this weird look.
And I don't know. I totally repent of this, but I would give you a weird look and I'd be like. Do what you want to do.
Okay, it's a test. It's the kiss of death.
So I would. I would do what I wanted to do. I took it as an invitation. He said it. And it wasn't an invitation.
It was a test. And he'd come home from the game, and I'd be so mad. And he's so happy. He had so much fun. Thank you.
He doesn't let me go. I'm suddenly.
So, Ashley, were you just cold? Yes, I was totally cold. And then eventually, of course, because he's like, what in the world is going on? You know, we'd end up in like kind of a little tiff and I would be like, you went to the game. And he's like.
I, you, you said do what you want to do. We didn't have anything, you know, and I'm like, but you didn't choose me. I mean, it's basically what I was saying without actually asking for anything I actually needed and wanted. And so we realized very quickly, like, we need, we need to handle this differently. Like, I can't use Jedi mind tricks on him.
I need to actually say what I need from you and actually use words and not just. have him play this guessing game. Are you more of an avoider of conflict? Oh, yes. Oh, my goodness.
Yes. To a fault. And really looking back, I mean, I was that way in my own family. And really, the way my family often would handle conflict was the cold shoulder and it was the punishing. And that was just how it was.
And so I just thought, well, this is what you do. And the more somebody figures it out, the more they love you. And I mean, it's just so silly. I mean, exactly. Exactly.
I know.
Now, what did you bring up? I'm married into this family, and I'm just like, I don't know. Because I came from. Family where it was just everything was very literal. Like, if you said you're fine, it was all boys.
There was no nuance. Dave, this is my family. Yeah. We said whatever we thought. We already said it.
I said I was fine. I'm fine. Like, I was so literal that she would say things like, We need to mow the yard. And we and it would confuse me. Because I and I would think, how are we going to mow the yard?
I mean, like, that's a one-man job. But I thought maybe she wants us to do it together. Maybe, like, she wants us both to have like one hand on the lawnmower and to have this like bonding time.
So I would wait. I would just wait, and the grass would get taller, and she would say, Why isn't the yard mode? I was like, I thought we were going to do it. She said, no, no. When I say we need to mow the yard, I mean you need to mow the yard.
I'm like, oh, okay, I got it. Just say it. Just say it. Tell me. Just say that makes much more sense.
But. You know, if you say we, I'm going to think you meant we. Literal. I was that literal. And then, Dave, are you okay with bringing up something if it needs to be talked about?
Well, this is the problem. That's a bad one. We had a lot to say. This is a problem. Early on.
I would say both of us were avoiders. You know, and that's not a great recipe for dealing with stuff. Because you you just sort of Both of us kinda got in this habit where we just would try to Avoid stuff that needed to be addressed. And neither one would take the lead. It would just come out in these passive-aggressive ways.
So essentially, we were both, we both had the same unhealthy communication style when it came to conflict resolution until it would just come to a head. And then, and then it was kind of emotionally charged. And so, over time, we've gotten a lot better about just being clear, addressing stuff before it becomes a big issue. We've gotten better with time, but early on, we were just. bad at it.
And so well and something I would do like that was also Just not being totally honest with you and trying to have you figure out things. I would tell Dave, like, he would be ready to leave to go to work in the morning. And I would be like, have a great day. And by the way, we need to talk later. Like, that's what I would leave him with.
And I would have this thing for you in trouble. I mean, he didn't know. I wouldn't need to get a clue. Like, what? What did you?
What did you mean by that?
Sometimes it would be good.
Sometimes it would be not so good. I mean, I didn't, we didn't have cell phones to text and give a hint. Nothing. What is that? What could that possibly mean?
Gee, we need to talk. We need to talk. Yes. And he would go all day. He would talk about it all day, sweating.
And sometimes it was nothing, and sometimes it was something. But I'm just, I said, just tell me. Like, give me a headset. Give me time to process what it is going to be about. Then he would, we would get to the point where he'd finally come and he would look sweaty and like worried.
Like, we'd sit down and talk. And then I would talk about something serious that had been really on my mind. And I'd bring it to him. And then at the end of it, he would just look at me with this blank stare. Yeah.
And I would be like, well, do you have anything to say about that? And he'd be like, I don't, I don't know. And I'd be like, do you even care? And he's like, of course I care. I just, I just need time to think about this.
And then I would get really upset because I'm like, well, you don't even care. And then I, and he would kind of walk away and I would walk away. And it was just a mess. And so, what I realized, though, is that I'm more of a verbal processor, and Dave is more of an internal processor. And I just wasn't giving him the time.
First of all, I'm giving him this terrible buildup and not a clue of what we actually need to talk about.
So he could come up with something to say and to really process it and pray about it. But also, when I would say something, I just didn't realize that he needed time. Like I, cause he's not me, right? And, and, you know, even just as a woman, I have more neurons for language and learning than a man does, right? And so we can, we can go, right?
And it's a real thing. It's not intelligence. It's just a wiring. And, you know, men, it's just, that's why most men need to take a minute to maybe go on a walk and think about it or go on a drive and think about it or just have some little inkling about what it's about. And once I realized that, you know, we found a language to really.
Bring out the best in each other. And so, like, nowadays, it looks like us saying, I don't do the we need to talk. I'll be like, sweetie, hey. XYZ happened. I really want to talk about that later.
So, can you be thinking about that? Because I want us to kind of come to some solution, resolution, whatever it is. And he'd be like, yes, sounds good. And we'd pick an actual time. And we would talk about it at that time.
Now, if we couldn't do it at that time, we would make sure that we set another time so we don't leave each other. Right, but I knew what it's about. Yeah, so she was helping me play to my strengths because, like, you could process it. I could process it and then just like strength finder stuff. Uh, you know, strategy is like one that I enjoy.
If I, if I have a problem and have time, like adequate time to really think about strategic ways to meet that problem, then I feel like I can actually win here instead of just all at once being kind of thrown something and. Having in real time to kind of like process it and the emotion of it and everything else.
So it's just helping your spouse. win instead of trying to If you're approaching any disagreement, like something one of you is going to win, one of you is going to lose. You both have lost. Because in marriage, you're on the same team. You're in the same huddle.
You're going to win together or lose together. And we had to really realize that. This isn't one of us winning, one of us losing. We need to find a way that both of us can win every time. And we want to help each other win.
We want to help each other be at our best. And when we started taking that approach, We started winning. I like that because we went through that same thing where I'm a verbal processor. I'm sharing every single thing that's going on in my head. I look at Dave like, so what do you think?
Like, what do you think about that? What do you feel? There's nothing. Yeah. There's nothing.
And I say the same thing, Ashley. Like, you feel anything? I didn't know what I felt yet. Right, right. I hadn't been able to process it.
And to me, that felt like, well, then you're not even listening or you don't care, which isn't fair at all. I had no idea the processing thing because the next day he'd come in, he has all kinds of thoughts, all kinds of ideas. Usually it took me a night. Right. Yeah, me too.
Not always, but usually it took me a while. Right. I'd think and think and then I'd come back, but she's a verbal processor. I was like, anything she thinks, and then it's just out. And I'm also, I didn't know I brought it in.
But I brought into our marriage a fear of conflict. I grew up in a home with two alcoholic parents. Dad had affairs. Fights were ugly and it ended in divorce. And abusive.
And again, I never processed this as a eight-year-old, 10-year-old, 15-year-old. But my belief was conflict's bad. You avoid it because it ends like that.
So I didn't know I brought that in. And I bring it in and she, she, she's like, let's talk about this and let's talk about that. I'm like, I'm literally getting PTSD from like the drama you're like, oh, what do you mean, talk? I'm literally walking out of rooms like this is what I do. She came from a family of theirs, got it out, sort of like your Dave.
You know, it's just like they talked about it.
So it was a journey for me to realize conflict's not bad. Right. How you handle it determines bad or good. And I was just an avoider. And I had to learn, no, you got to sit in the seat.
Roll up your sleeves and learn how to. Communicate and talk. This Valentine's Day, what if you skipped the roses?
Okay, that's fine.
Well, maybe not. And you dove into conversations meant to draw you closer. The ones you are secretly too scared to have. Yeah, Marriage After Dark is Family Life's newest podcast where a real married couple talks openly about healthy, God-honoring intimacy. Yes, the stuff you never ask your pastor or your friends.
And for more, go to familylife.com slash marriage after dark. because intimacy shouldn't stay in the dark. Let's give couples like some strategies or questions along the way. Like, one of the questions would be: how do we process? How do we deal with our anger?
Like, what do we do? What are the options? Like, you shut down. You want to talk about it immediately? What are some other things people do?
Yeah, I think yell. Yeah, you yell. There's ones that are just. Clearly unhealthy. You know, when you're you're you just go in attack mode, you're yelling, you're cussing at each other, you're you're just venting rage, you know, that's always out of balance.
But then there then a lot of it's nuanced. It's it's like kind of personality based. You need to process it. You want to process it right then. You want to take some time, go for a walk, think about it.
Do you want to sleep on it? Do you want to have like a specific time when you're going to address it? I think Avoiding it altogether is always bad. But then there's some nuance about different ways that can work based on the personality of the two people involved. And I think there's even a place, too, where.
It's good to take pause. And to really bring it to the Lord and say, God, is this just a problem inside me that I need to just bring to you and deal between God and me? Or do I need to actually address this with my spouse? Because sometimes it's more of an internal issue. And I've really had to learn this because my avoidant kind of Conflict personality, which I do think is also like you, Dave, rooted in fear, fear of conflict, and how it was kind of handled growing up.
A lot of times, like early in our relationship, every little thing I felt like I had to talk to Dave about it because I was so scared that if we didn't, it was never going to be resolved. And I remember there was one time along the way that you were like, sweetie, not everything is an issue between us. He's like, some of this I feel like is insecurity in you. And you might have said it nicer than I just said it, but I mean, it was very delicate. Pretty nice.
It was, I mean, however he said it, it didn't, it didn't come off to me like he was avoiding, like he was trying to avoid whatever it was I was trying to address. But it made me take pause because as he said that, I was like, oh my goodness, you're right. You're right.
Some of this is just my own insecurity. And, you know, in working with people kind of in the counseling space, they'll often ask me, Well, how do I know the difference? And I always tell them, and I've done this myself, is take a week and journal about it. Journal about the thoughts that are swirling in your head, and you will see a pattern of what you're dealing with. And you're going to see some things that are really more internal that are just a you and God issue.
And you'll see some things that are actually relational that you need to address with your spouse. But you don't really know until you take pause and assess it and really ask the Lord to reveal it. Ashley, I'm the same way because I would bring everything up. I must have been extremely exhausting. Our kids, too.
Like, come on, just chill it. But I think that going to God in prayer and asking Him that's brilliant to do. And I would say, Lord, if this is something between me and you, then let me know that. Like, bring, like, let's just us talk about it. But if it keeps coming up with Dave over and over, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna surrender this to you.
And I don't need to bring it up if we can just figure it out. Figure it out. But if this keeps coming back up with Dave, then give me wisdom to know when to talk about it and how to talk about it. Right. And he'll do that.
Haven't you found that he does that over and over? Yes. Yes. And I love how you said when, because timing is everything. And this is something I learned the hard way because I'm a night owl.
And Dave is not, okay? Dave's really a midday person. I didn't know it existed until we got married. But some people really peek at Dave. He's not good in the morning.
He's not good at night. He's good at dating. He's not midday. He is midday. I want a 30-minute window around 3 p.m.
where I'm ready to change the world. But that's about it. He really is. Like, he's so thriving. I start low, I end low.
So hit it in the middle. Hit it in the middle. But what's funny, and I think God has a sense of humor, is my lowest. Like capacity energy level of the day is midday. It's four o'clock.
Yes. I'm literally. With a mom, four o'clock, we can barely make it. Yes. I mean, it's so true.
Everybody has a sense of humor.
So. I don't try to change her by saying Like, let's go mountain climb at 3 p.m. And she does, and she's learned to at 10 p.m., not initiate a deep conversation. Because we're in two completely different places. I mean, she's she's in peak mental capacity and she's been grinding on this.
Yeah, she's ready. She would start in, and I'm like laying there like in a coma and she's just wanting to solve these massive issues. And I'm just like, sweetie, I love you. I cannot think right now. And at first, she'd be offended, like, you don't care.
And I'm like, I just can't. I would even say, how can you fall asleep? Like, God wants us. I'd put the God card in. God wants us to resolve this.
He goes, I can't keep my eyes open. Yeah. I want to be fully rested for this. You know, and it's not that either of you's wrong. One's like, this is so important.
We need to deal with it now. And the other one's like, I can't think straight. I want to be rested when I deal with this. Both those are legitimate. You think it's okay to go to bed?
With an issue, like maybe mad, maybe angry, maybe just unresolved. Can you go to bed and talk about it tomorrow? I mean, the Bible does say, you know, don't let the sun go down on your anger. I don't see that so much as saying a commandment that like every issue has to be resolved before you're allowed to go to sleep because we would never sleep. You know, there's some things that you're going to have.
What I think more of that's doing is like saying our anger is meant to have a very short shelf life. Like we're not meant to live in a state of anger. You need to agree. Like you can go to bed, but you need to agree and actually write it down and say, tomorrow at 11 a.m., we're going to talk about this. We're going to have coffee and we're going to be mentally ready for that.
We're going to prepare, say a prayer before we're going to be ready to talk about this. But right now, we're going to go to sleep. And I think that alone can bring peace to the person who really wanted to discuss it right then because they know it's not just going to get thrown, you know, under the rug. Cause I think that's the fear is that, oh, it's just another thing we're adding to the list of things that never go resolved. And a lot of Couples live this way.
I mean, I can't. I was really, I've been really surprised in working with couples through counseling, how many couples will go a week. Like a solid week without barely talking. And Ashley, it happens all the time. I've seen the same thing.
And I just saw a couple the other day. I'm like, you can tell that there's this. Simmering frustration and resentment. Oh, yes. You can feel it.
And I thought, like, these guys have had ongoing unresolved issues. Yes. I don't think a lot of people know what to do with it because there's so many that they haven't resolved. How would they even begin and where would they begin? What do you think?
I kind of look at it, you know, to borrow a Dave Ramsey metaphor from the finance world, you know, debt snowball, pay off the smallest debt and then work up to the next smallest debt and all that. I think that that same principle can apply for these unresolved issues. You know, when you look at, in our case, the financial debt that had gotten so big and you look at it all at once, it just seems overwhelming. And you think, what's the point? You know, and I think some people live that way.
But with the issues you're facing in your marriage. Look at them, smallest ones first, maybe, you know, and say, let's tackle this one. And get a win under our belt and then let that snowball, and then let's tackle the next one. And get that one under our belt and keep moving forward little by little, chipping away at this and celebrating the wins along the way, knowing that some of these issues don't even have to do with each other. I mean, this is maybe trauma from our childhood.
This is, you know, issues that are deeply rooted within us. That it's gonna, it took years for them to get where they are. It is gonna probably take years for them to. Fully find healing, but we're going to keep moving in that direction and not beat ourselves up that. you know, it's this huge mountain we're going to climb.
We're going to say, hey, we're taking steps up that mountain today. And tomorrow we'll take some more steps. And we're going to celebrate those wins little by little. We don't have a lot of time left, but a big issue in conflict is A word we all know: forgiveness. Discuss that.
Have you had to forgive? How do you forgive? I mean, couples are carrying bitterness maybe for days, weeks, months, decades. And at some point, you've got to bring God in and say, I've got to forgive her. I've got to forgive him.
You've talked about even the porn thing before in your marriage. How does a couple get to a place where they can forgive one another? You know, one of my favorite quotes on forgiveness is from St. Augustine. I'm sure you've heard this quote, but it says, holding a grudge is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.
And so I look at unforgiveness the same way, just holding on to these things because in some way, I think we're convinced, and this is a lie from the enemy, but we're convinced that if we let it go, then we're letting them off the hook. But we have to remember that God is a just God and we have natural consequences in place. And we have to give it to the Lord and say, God, you deal with my spouse and whatever it is that they did. I am hurt, but I'm going to let this go in the sense of knowing that you're dealing with them personally and it's not my job to have to hold this over their head. And in fact, It's not a burden I'm even meant to bear, right?
Because we can't walk freely and we can't even love freely in the way that our spouse really needs us to in order for them to get the healing they need and to make amends. And I think, too, as a culture, we misunderstand that forgiveness and trust are two different things. I think a lot of times. We don't fully forgive because we can't trust yet, but forgiveness and trust are two different things. Forgiveness is only given, right?
Because God first forgave us, but trust has to be earned. We don't just willy-nilly give trust, it has to be earned over time with consistency and where our words and actions are consistent over time. And Dave did that with the porn issue that we've talked about on here before. But even in smaller things, like being willing to say, Yeah, you know, that didn't go right and that hurt me. What you said hurt me, but I'm going to give this to God.
And I just, I want us to do better. And when we show each other that we believe we can do better, you can rebuild that trust slowly over time. But I think it's just important that we try to seek forgiveness and we try to apologize quickly and then accept that forgiveness because it's important that we don't allow things like that to come between us. And I do think couples live. For decades, like this, almost kind of holding it over each other's head and keeping tabs, and it's just not healthy.
And it creates that undercurrent of resentment you talked about, Ann. Yeah, and I think that there's a you can just tell that there's resentment toward each other, and they don't like each other, right? You can see it like as they get older, they just don't really care to be around each other or like each other because we all drift toward isolation, yes, but we can all move back, and it's never too late to do that. Right. This has been rich.
We should have, we could just do this together every time. I love it. We just, we love you guys. We love you guys too. Thanks.
I think this has been really helpful. Thanks, you guys. Let me just say this to the listener. Every single day, families around the world are facing real struggles, and Family Life is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a Family Life partner, your monthly support fuels this work.
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