The Hidden Peace: Joel Muddamalle

The way that I see humility is three things. Humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves. We're children of God. Humility prevents you from thinking too high of yourself. Because when we look at other people, we're forced to see other image bearers of God.

And the last one is it's a preservation. It's not that there's not gonna be anxious moments in your life, but what it does mean is that in those moments, you're reminded of the faithful hands of Jesus. Let me start here, because this is a question that I think you are the man to answer. Oh, gosh, all right. You don't even know what I'm going to ask, but as I think about Our society, our culture, the rise of unprecedented anxiety, especially in our kids.

You've got kids, you've got four. We raised three boys.

So we have parents listening, and it's like, I've seen anxiety like I've never seen in our culture. And the research and numbers say all that. You've written and you talk about hidden peace, but your answer, and you tell me if I'm wrong, is the way to deal with anxiety. Is humility. Yeah.

And when I first read it, I'm like, wait a minute, how is that the answer? How did you get to that? Anxiety. Yeah. So, first of all, just so you know, you guys are not the first ones to have that same reaction.

I had that same reaction.

Okay. In fact, I wrestled with the Lord consistently. This is the very first book I've ever written. God, this can't be the one you want me to write. Are you kidding me?

Humility. Like, nobody's running around waving the anthem of the humble life is what I want, you know. And interesting fact, in the Greco-Roman world, the context of the New Testament and in the Old Testament as well, humility was really a thing that was despised. Nobody valued humility.

Something fascinating happens around the time of Paul. Paul begins to talk about this man who defeated sin and death through death itself. Same as Jesus. And in Philippians 2, Paul talks about how he was humble. And he was humble enough to come onto earth and to really die for our sins and to take on the iniquity of man so that we could experience the righteousness of God.

And in that, we can experience an ease to our anxiety. We can experience an ease to our suffering in a way that is unexplainable. And that's when we take on the life of Christ.

Well, what is the life of Christ? The life of Christ is humility. And it's actually found in the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus says, Come to me, all you who are weary, you know, all you who are burdened and heavy laden. Come and follow me.

Why? Because I am gentle and humble. I mean, this is wild. And so it's like, I began to think, well, what is this about humility that we're so allergic to, that we're resistant to? And I think it's actually part of spiritual warfare, honestly.

I think that we're being conned in our society into believing that the path to safety, strength, and security is by more power. It's by more money. It's more fame, more platform. If my one video could just go viral, right? If my follower account just hit this number, man, if my neighbors just paid attention to me, like this, like this would be easy.

But what ends up happening is you never have enough money. You never have enough followers, right? And the more that you're aware of what you don't have, the more anxious you become. And it's like, well, what's the antidote to this? What's the answer to it?

And the answer isn't striving for more because that's going to create chaos in your heart. The answer to it is humility. And what is humility?

So there's this quote by C.S. Lewis.

Well, it's actually historically attributed to C.S. Lewis, though it's very debated now, and people think that maybe he didn't say it. But just for the sake of it, I'm just going to say, maybe C.S. Lewis said this. The quote goes like this: that humility isn't thinking less of yourself, it's just thinking of yourself less often.

I love that quote. That's one of my favorites.

So you guys need to know. Say it again. Say it slow. Yeah. Humility isn't thinking less of yourself.

It's thinking of yourself less often. And I want to let you guys know it's very dangerous, y'all, to disagree with C.S. Lewis.

And now I'm like, whoa, you guys are stressed. You're like, is he going to? And I just said, I love, no, no, no. I think C.S. Lewis is absolutely correct, but I think that there's a starting spot to humility.

And I want to just add that starting spot.

So, what does The starting spot to humility. Humility is a three-part movement, and it starts first with an awareness of who God is.

So, humility doesn't start with me. Humility first starts with an honest awareness of who God is. Because if I know who God is, I can know who I am. And if I know who God is and now I know who I am. I now know how to relate to other image bearers of God.

And this is the ease to the anxiety that we are looking for because sometimes we're like, I don't know how to relate to God. I don't know who I am. I don't know who other people are. Said everybody in our country, basically. Exactly.

Yeah. And I think it's because we get the starting spot wrong. We're trying to figure out all these things distanced from God. Isn't this the sin of Eden? The serpent says, you don't need God.

You just need the fruit of the knowledge. And if you just get the knowledge apart from God, then you can experience all of the freedom. You will be like God. But the insanity of that statement is they were already like God. They were the one thing in all of creation that bore the image of God.

And so when the fall happens, I kind of think, well, God's image doesn't break. Humanity breaks. Yeah. You know, and the thing that was broken in us is actually retrieved through the ancient virtue of humility. That's just a fascinating concept.

And, Joel, you've been working with Lisa Turkhurst's Proverbs 31 ministry. How did you end up in a women's ministry? Oh, man, that's that's a whole episode. Are you the only guy there? Because he's humble, that's why.

That's it.

So, I'm actually, when I first came onto the team at Proverbs, I think I was guy number four or something like that. And the other guys kind of messed with me because they're like, We had the Holy Trinity already with the three of us, and now you came in and kind of, you know. But the guys were kind of in IT and in operations. I was the first kind of non-operations person being the theology guy. But tell us what you do there.

Yeah, so at Proverbs, my tech title is Director of Theology and Research. They like to just call me the theologian in residence. We've had Lisa and she calls you the theology guy. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. I'm just your everyday average, you know, their friend.

What are they called? Spider-Man, your friendly neighborhood spite, you know, Spidey. I'm your friendly neighborhood theologian. You know, I just like to talk about nerdy stuff that we did before we even started rolling. I was just going to say, you have your doctorate.

You Are very well versed in scripture, the Bible, theology. We want to talk to you all day long because you're versed in so many different topics.

Well, I think the Bible is fun. And I think that we've missed just the simplicity of the scriptures, that the scriptures are a story. And that's the thing that actually got me into Proverbs. I remember I was sitting in a conversation with Lisa. I used to work for a Bible software company, which is how Lisa and I first met.

And Lisa began to unravel kind of this unveil this vision. And she said, you know, Joel, I believe that we really have an issue of biblical literacy. And she called it biblical poverty. She said, you know, and so my heart, my mission, my vision, and what we're doing at Proverbs is to eradicate biblical poverty. And the idea is more people have access to the Bible than ever before.

And yet, the ability to understand what the Bible actually means on its own terms seems to be escaping so many of us. And I remember there's a story in Luke chapter 24 where Jesus is on the road to Emmaus with these two guys. And there's a moment he sits down and he breaks the bread and their hearts burn alive, you know? And for me, that was my heart burn alive moment. I was like, Really?

Here's this woman who is, by the way, one of the best Bible teachers, if not the best Bible teacher of our. I mean, I'm obviously very biased. She's like my spiritual big sister, but literally, just phenomenal. And she begins to articulate this. I'm like, I didn't even know I had words to express this feeling in my heart.

I'm like, this is what I want to give my life to. You know, I want to give my life to showing people the depth and the beauty of God's word because. It's beautiful and it's applicable, and it honestly can change our lives, you know, if we just trust it. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that was my journey to Proverbs.

And along the way, um, I ended up earning a PhD in uh biblical theology.

So, Wal Raising Boys, yeah, three boys and a daughter.

So, on COVID, you guys, two weeks before COVID hit, we had on Valentine's Day our baby girl, Amelia Jane Mutamali, and I nicknamed her MJ after the greatest basketball player of all time.

So, after LeBron, what are you talking about?

Now, I could walk away, I could walk away. That is spiritual warfare right there. I just want you to know that actually, I'm more of a Kobe guy, actually. But hey, and I'm okay with that because Kobe's kind of like one B to Jordan's one A. You know, I just, I just, yeah, we miss, yeah, gosh, Jordan guy, it's MJ, it's E-M-J, right?

E-M-J.

So, I love it, and she loves it. Does she have a poster in her in her room? Does she have a poster? You have one.

Some people might call this idolatry, I don't think it's idolatry, but. You know, I do have you know pictures in my office of uh of the greatest uh I mean, you're from Chicago too, right? Yeah, born and raised. Oh, there you go, and there's a story behind it. My parents uh immigrated from India, and so um, I'm a child of immigrant parents.

I was born in the Chicagoland area. Oh, wow! I watched Jordan win the three-peat, I cried when he retired, yeah. But you also watched the Pistons. For a couple years, for a couple years, I saw them literally try to murder Michael.

I saw that. Yeah, that was not cool. Yeah, and I was like, they walked off the court. Yeah, I saw the whole thing. As we share stories of God's faithfulness, remember that your generosity helps make this possible.

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Okay, we really need you to give. Let's get back to the conversation. We really need you to give. You love God's word? Were you brought up in a Christian family?

So, this is a unique, once again, a unique story. My grandparents, they are actually missionaries in India, and I was just in India with my entire family for two and a half weeks. I've been there multiple times. It's the first time ever that my kids and my whole family went there. My wife is white, and my kids are biracial.

And so, it was like a really cool moment, you know, to go back to some of the roots. And my grandparents have been doing ministry in rural villages in India for over 60 years. And so, kind of unique for an Indian kid to grow up with the story of Jesus around him. Grew up in Chicago, but like most kids that grew up in that area, my dream was really: I'm going to become a lawyer. I'm going to make a lot of money.

I'm going to live the American dream and I'm going to throw a little bit back to ministry into Jesus. And I just had a youth pastor that just would not leave me alone. You know, I think just those are the best youth pastors, by the way. The ones that just see something nobody else kind of sees, but just won't leave. And he, you know, Rick Markham just wouldn't.

What do you mean by that? What did he do? Um he wouldn't let me settle. For sitting behind the scenes on stuff, he would put me in positions and opportunities to lead as a student leader. He called me on the carpet.

I mean, we don't live in a, I think we live in an age that's once again allergic to accountability. And Ricky. Held me accountable, you know. I led worship and, you know, I had to be prepared. And if I wasn't, I wasn't leading, like, just stuff like that.

And he taught me the story of Jesus. Like, he was about the scriptures. And he introduced me to the Jesus of the Bible, not a Jesus in his own imagination or making. And that was so significant for me.

So I kind of had this moment at a student conference when I was in a junior in high school where I don't remember the pastor. I don't remember who he was. Like, literally, this is so wild. I just remember the statement: the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

Some of you are being called into a full-time ministry. And as a junior, I just find myself getting up, walking to the front.

Now, listen, everybody was like, Is he like, was he doing drugs or something? Like, because that's not who I was. Like, I didn't, I didn't, you know, and so it was like it truly a God thing. And that was the beginning of that journey. And my grandparents are so ecstatic.

My mom was nervous, I think, but also happy that I was following.

Well, it's interesting when you say what Ricky did in your life. Yeah. I'm sitting here thinking, family life, we're sitting here talking about marriage and family. That's what we're called to do as moms and dads. Yeah.

All those same things. See it in your son or daughter. Gosh. You know, call it out. Hold them accountable.

Give them opportunities. You know, fan the flame. But also, as they become teenagers, to expose them to people like Ricky who are saying the same things that you are as a parent. But now there's something different when you're a teenager, like, man, this youth guy, he's really sees something. Yeah, I've got a 14-year-old.

This is happening right now. Listen, I speak at youth camps. I do this stuff. And we send our kids to youth camp. My oldest son comes back.

He's like, dad. You'll never believe and he starts like talking about what Pastor Clayton talked about, you know? I'm like Liam, I literally said that to you the exact same way. I might have said it better, but like, I mean, I wrote a book on humility that was very prideful. I'm sorry.

But, like, you know, and I'm like, this is just like, now you get it? Yeah. I'm like, yeah, of course.

Now he gets it. Because to your point, and he needs to hear it from different people that got us wired in different ways. And I'm just so grateful for what you guys do here at Family Life because it really matters. Yeah, so what's the hidden piece? Yeah.

Because the book is called The Hidden Peace. Yeah. I mean, finding true security. Got to talk about that. Strength and confidence through humility.

Again, there it is through what? Yeah. You know? Yeah. So the hidden piece is humility.

So, like, you think it's like the hidden piece.

Well, the piece is hiding.

Well, the reason why the piece is hiding is because humility is absent, you know? And so I think so many of us, like, if I were to ask you guys, like, what does it mean to be human? I think we all would be like, oh, and you'd kind of come up with some answers. But the more we start to talk about it, it kind of becomes a little bit convoluted and complex. And it's like, humanity is a really interesting thing.

Cause in one way, humans are just amazing. And then in other ways, we're like, man, humans are a mess, you know? And so it's like, well, how do we get to this place of peace? How do we get to this place of authentic living that isn't harmful to other people? And I think it's actually the origin story of Eden.

And so this is like the hidden piece of it: the origin story of humanity is actually a story of humility. Um, so if I could do a little bit of um poetic play with it because what you just said, I don't think I've ever heard. Yeah, the original story origin story is a story of humility. I've been to seminary, I've studied it. I'm like, I don't remember ever a professor saying that.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, if you think about the story of humanity, so Eden is on a mountain, very important detail. The rivers run a mountain? How do we know it's on a mountain? Um, the topography of Genesis 1 lets you know that it's on a mountain because the rivers run up and down out of it.

Um, and in the ancient Near Eastern world, uh, kings planted gardens on mountains because it was the safest, most secure place. And this was the place in the ancient world that maybe mountaintops have never heard. We've both been to seminaries. We're learning some stuff today. And it's actually a really interesting detail.

Um, and when you see that, by the way, when you see that little detail, if you think about what takes place on mountains throughout the story of scripture, your mind's going to be blown because it's like Eden is on a mountain, the new Jerusalem is referred to as a city on a mountain. A mountain, a city on a hill, the royal city, which is on a mountain. You've got Mount Sinai, which is where God, right? You've got Genesis 6 with Mount Hermon, the Senaca tradition with the sons of God, the Nephilim. I'm not going to get into all that.

We'll have a whole different episode about that. They're bringing you back for that. That's right. You know, you've got the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus, and you have fascinating Jesus on Skull Mountain, Golgotha, and he dies. And then, by the way, where is the garden tomb?

The garden tomb is in a garden on top of a mountain. on a hillside. Which is fascinating, and so you've got this theme of the mountain kind of going all the way through. But the origin story of humanity, back to that, is you've got this high king of heaven. Who comes low?

And this is why the mountain thing matters, because it says that God created Adam from the dust of the ground, humanity from the dust of the ground. The Hebrew word for humanity is Adam, and the Hebrew word for soil is Adama.

So there's a poetic wordplay that's here that humanity's origin story is a story of soil. And so we come in, and here's this high king of heaven who comes down, and it feels like almost like on bended knee. And this is so wild to think that this king of heaven and earth would get his hands dirty, literally to create everything else he creates. He speaks. He speaks it.

Right. But now he's getting his hands dirty. I never thought of that. And then he forms man. Wild, and then he brings man alive how by giving his breath.

To humanity to make them alive. And then it says that God places them, Adam and Eve, the way that Genesis 1 and 2 is kind of macro-micro in my opinion. It's giving us a big picture and then a lasered-in picture of what's taking place, and places them in Eden.

Well, where's Eden? On a mountaintop. And he puts them there.

So think about this. The original story of humanity is a story of humility because they are down low. And they're formed in the soil. In Latin, it's the Latin word for soil is humus. And this is where we actually get the English word humility from.

And so you have the combination of humus, which is soil, and a dama, which is soil, that comes from humanity. And you see, like this connection with the word plate that's actually there. And what does God do? God doesn't just make Adam and Eve from Adam from the soil and leaves him down there. He lifts him up and exalts him and puts him in his royal garden in Eden.

Does it say that? Does it say he lifts them up? He puts him.

So that's the word. He puts is actually, there's a geographical direction to it where he's lifting and putting because he has to place them in a spot which is on top of Mount Eden. I mean, that description is so. Yeah. Beautiful.

I've never heard it said like that. I've never seen a painting. of that. An artist stooping down to create the humility of hands in the dirt creating breath in the lungs. Wow.

And think about what Jesus does: Jesus is the high king of heaven. Who comes low in the incarnation. Yeah. And then he lives a perfect life, and then he's lifted high on a cross. And it's on the cross that he defeats sin and death through death itself so that we can return to our rightful place with the Lord Himself.

And so, this is where I say, well, the origin story of humanity is humility. And so, how is humility destroyed? This is what the serpent suggests in Eden. You can exchange your God-given humility, which is think about what Adam and Eve are doing in Eden. They're walking in the presence of God.

They know God. Yeah. They know themselves because they know who God is, and they know how to relate to each other. Because they know who God is, they know who they are, they know how they're, right? This is the definition of humility.

Where does the serpent do? Hey, you see, the fruit, go ahead and take it, take it, eat it. Um, Adam and Eve, they fall into sin because they eat together. By the way, Adam is like a stone's throw away, so it's not like homeboy didn't know what was going on, he was absolutely right there. I'm always picturing him right beside.

He, I mean, there's a there's a close proximity there, absolutely, where he's he's he knows what's going on, he knows what's going on. There's a bit of dereliction of duty that's actually happening here. There's a passivity, there's a passivity, absolutely. Of man, you should have stepped up and said, Wait a minute. And I kind of, this is a joke, but also very serious.

I kind of wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve were like, Nikosh, serpent, so interesting. Hey, by the way, you know, at the cool of the day, every day, God comes down and he goes on a walk with us. We walk with him. Yeah. Hey, just hang out.

It's going to be here any minute. Let's talk to him about this. You know what the serpent's going to do? Run for his life. That's what he's going to do.

You see, and this is the deception. This is what sin does. Sin is separating us from God, separating us from each other, and separating us from ourselves. Sin is actually making us animalistic in nature, not giving us our true humanity. And the path back to humanity is humility.

This is how we regain our true humanity because it's in humility where we look and go, gosh, we're in desperate need of a rescuer. This is Jesus. And it's in humility that we go, well, Man, we really need to grow in the spiritual disciplines, the spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, thankfulness. Like, oh. That's returning to who I'm actually.

Oh, wait, we need to exercise those things with other image bearers of God. And the result is going to be peace. The result is going to be strength that doesn't come from you, but you're receiving from God. This is Ephesians 6. And the result is a type of confidence that is so freeing because you know what you can do and you're also aware of what you cannot do.

Which that is maybe the most spiritual things that you could ever say is like, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm learning that with my kids. Like, guys, great question.

I honestly don't know. Let's figure it out together. Yeah. You know, I think that's actually what God is doing in Eden, inviting Adam and Eve. Like, let's do this together.

I mean how uh in your opinion uh How involved is Satan today? In our struggle with pride and humility, or any area. I mean, we look at that passage of Genesis, and some good church-going people are like, you know. You know, that maybe, maybe did happen there, but today, yeah, it's not as prevalent as it was then. Yeah, so there's a little teaser.

The next book, I know we're talking about the hidden piece, but the next book that I have coming out is called The Unseen Battle, and it's on spiritual warfare.

So, it really unpacks some of this in more detail.

So, I'll give you a little teaser about that. But essentially, my view is: one, we have to retrieve a theological understanding of who the serpent is. And sometimes there's this thought of like the kind of the Asian yin-yang, like you've got these two, you know, and it's kind of yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's like such not a good biblical theological view. Um, you have God, that's it, right?

And then you have these created beings that God Himself created that are spiritual beings that went into rebellion against God, and as a result of that, only God is omniscient, He's you know, all-knowing, uh, omnipotent, He's all-powerful, He's omnipresent, He's in all places at all times. You have to be careful that we don't. Don't presume that the serpent or the devil can be in all places at all times. There's no way, or never has been. And equal with God.

That's right. That's right. And so, but, and that means absolutely working. You know, and so the question is: How does the enemy work? And for me, it's like, well, how does the enemy work?

The enemy is working today in systems and structures by eliciting the vices of the flesh. Paul in Galatians chapter 5 talks about the fruit of the spirit, but then he contrasts it with the vices of the flesh. And the vices of the flesh are these things that are so inward. They are looking to satisfy ourselves. But if you actually look at them back to that idea of humanity, it promises you that you're going to be the most human you're ever going to be, the truest human, but the outcome is actually animalistic.

So let me give a couple examples. There's a reason why pornography is such a significant multi-billion dollar industry today. And if we think that there is not spiritual warfare, like we're blind to that. Because what is pornography suggesting? Family life today, right?

Pornography is suggesting that I can experience intimacy. in my own control. In my own way. And fulfillment. And fulfillment.

And it's ultimately selfish, right? And so, for a husband or for a wife, the stats are actually showing that there is a significant rise in pornography usage amongst women in these days. And so it's like, well, look at how the enemy is working. It's providing counterfeit. Vices in order to undermine the beauty of what God always intended.

God wanted us to experience the beauty of sex in the context of covenant marriage. between a husband and a wife who are committed to each other. Look what the enemy is doing. The enemy is like, well, by the way. You can just, and the outcome of that is addiction.

It's a gateway drug to all kinds of foolishness. It's going to create havoc inside of your family. The amount of percentage that shows that a person is addicted to pornography that then goes on to have an affair of some kind, adultery of some kind, is significant. You know, um, and so I creates a wall between us where God created us to be one, and it creates objectification, yes, that's the other significant one, yeah. You know, it's like even with my kids, I'm trying to point out, like, hey, there's a difference between looking at something and saying, like, oh man, that thing is so beautiful, like, great, and moving on, from them looking at him, like, I need to have it, I'm obsessed with it.

That's right, there's this thing that happens in scripture: see, take, and desire, when those three Hebrew words, see, take, and desire, or see, desire, and take. Uh Occur together, it's always bad.

So Eve sees the fruit? She desires the fruit, and And she takes it.

Well, I pulled up Genesis 3 just to look at that conversation. And, you know, so many of you have already heard this, but. The serpent says to Eve, Did God really say you must not eat from any tree in the garden? The woman said to the serpent, We may eat from the trees in the garden, but God did say you must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die. And the serpent says, You will certainly not die, he said to the woman, for God knows that when you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

So, take us there, explain that.

So, one of the questions always is, why in the world is this tree even in the middle in the first place? Yeah, right? Yes.

So, I because the tree of life is there as well. That's right. Okay. So, you guys are taking me all kinds of fun places. I love this.

This is like a conversation of the theology study day with Lisa at Proverbs 31 of Ministries, just so you guys know. And so, we've actually studied this before specifically. There's a great Old Testament scholar, his name's Gordon Wenham. And so, I'm kind of pulling from Wenham's kind of research that the issue of the tree of knowledge, in my view, is it wasn't intended to be a never, it was a not yet.

So the tree of knowledge wasn't necessarily a never, it was a not yet. And the thing is that Adam and Eve were going to grow in knowledge. They were going to grow in wisdom underneath the supervision and the care and the shadow of Yahweh Interesting. Of God, who is going to walk because this is. He's going to grow them.

Yes.

Okay. So it's like my kids. Um, I'm exposed. We just talked about this with House of David, right? And so, I love, I love the show.

You just said House of David. Yes, explain what you're doing with the House of David, which is a mini series. It's a mini series on Amazon Prime. I just uh joined the team at Wonder Project to be a part of what's called their faith council, and so it's a group of 12 of us. I'm gonna specifically kind of help to bring some theological, um, scholarly uh feedback and insight into the different projects that they work on.

The one that I'm probably the most excited about that I can say publicly right now is the House of David. Um, and so yeah, I'm just really excited about it. But, like, we were even talking about House of David, and House of David has some scenes in it that I think my teenage kids love. Actually, I don't think I know like my boys, Liam, Levi, and Luke, man, they love the scene of the Amalekite king, and they're like, This feels like Lord of the Rings, Dad. Like, I love this, you know, true.

Hey, my five-year-old, uh, Emmy, she saw that Amalekite King and she said, Peace, I'm out. Oh, peace, creepy, and scary, right? She's like, and so there's okay, there's wisdom. Wisdom, right? There's wisdom in the process where we can kind of look and say, oh, here's knowledge.

That knowledge of how it is received and learned matters, it's appropriate in this season for Liam, Levi, and Luke. Oh, this isn't good for Emmy right now.

So, we make a decision to remove her from that. You know, we can watch something else and we'll watch a different time. But later, but later, yeah, later when you grow, when you are able to receive it, yeah.

So, notice what the serpent, the serpent's like, no, you don't need to wait, you can get it all. And I actually think they're overwhelmed with it because they haven't learned underneath the guidance of the Lord. And the other interesting thing about the tree is, and you pointed it out, Anne, is it's in the middle. But what's fascinating is the text also says the tree of life is in the middle. Right.

So, which one is at the center? They both are at the center. It's ambiguous, right? And I actually think this is a philosophical question that you and I are presented with today. And this is also a question of humility.

The question is: what do you choose? Do you choose? personal knowledge that you can Own for your own gratitude, your own selfish ambition, and vain conceit, or do you choose life with God? Yes.

This is what we're being presented day in and day every discussion. And every week, right? And humility is the path that reminds us. I need God. And guess what?

When I'm with God, I'm going to get the knowledge that I need. And it may not be right now. And it may not be, but that's for our good. Yeah. That's for our benefit.

And the serpent suggests: you don't have to wait. It's sin is a series of shortcuts. You know? Sin is just a series of shortcuts that undermine our humanity. what it would have happened had they eaten from the tree of life.

So, there's a lot of debate, a lot of conversation, Old Testament scholars, about what that was. But what we know for a fact, what Genesis 3 tells us, without a shadow of a doubt, is that the tree of life, if they ate after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sin enters into the world, the tree of life would have left them.

Now, think about this conceptually, in an eternal state. of separation from God. What's another word for that? Yeah. How?

Yes.

I just taught my grandkids this whole concept. Yeah. Because of the cherubim guarding the Garden of Eden. I used to think that's so mean that he wouldn't let them back in. No, they were protecting them from eating from the tree of life.

It's a momentary punishment. Because there is a long-term promise that's on the way. And this is back to Genesis 3, that the serpent, in fact, will strike at the heel of the seed of the woman, but the heel is going to crush the serpent. And it's actually out of great love that the Lord says, this is too much of a risk. He was unwilling to risk that, that his children would live in an eternal state of separation.

And so he takes that, he takes Eden away.

Now, fascinating thing, I'm obsessed with Eden. This is Lisa Turker's fault.

So Lisa, if you're listening, this is thanks to you. I'd never thought as much about Eden until 10 years ago when I met Lisa, because she always brings me back here. And the fascinating thing about Eden is Eden leaves as a garden. But in Revelation, it returns no longer as a garden, but as a garden city. Which is like: how does a garden turn into a garden city unless there's work to be done?

Unless there's movement, unless they're, you know, and it's like, gosh, this is how good the Lord is. The Lord isn't just like blowing it all up and starting, you know, brand new, even the earth of the flood, like you still see trees up, like the origin of creation still comes back. This isn't about removing it and starting something right. It's actually about the renewal and restoration of heaven and earth. And we see that with the Garden of Eden, which is a garden city.

But every day we're faced with that decision. 100%. Will I choose life with God? Or will I choose my own advancement and pleasure? That's right.

And in some ways, you tell me, will I choose pride or humility? Yes, 100%. And I think I would say, like, that the pride and humility is the fuel. that makes that decision. Right?

Like, we all have to have fuel that drives us. And the fuel, like, the like, um, Jon Stott has this incredible quote. I paraphrased it and kind of changed it up.

So the way that I say it is that if honesty and humility go together, then pride and insanity go together as well. Wow. So if honesty and humility go together, which they do, pride and insanity will go together as well. And so that that pride is like It doesn't matter what the cost is. I want what I want when I want it.

Right. And so, like, the way that I see humility is three things. I think humility as a protection, a prevention, and a preservation.

So, humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves because we ought to never forget that we're children of God. Made in his likeness and image, so to say, like I'm nothing, I'm nobody, I'm a that's going against what God's saying. Let me, um, my daughter Emmy came to me the other day and she's got this curly hair, like beautiful curly hair, right? Like, so curly. Like, we got to do like the silk covers, like the whole nine yards, right?

Her hair is so curly that we don't even know really how long it is. She got out of the shower the other day, it's like down to her like weight. We're like, oh, and that's so cute, right? She came into my office the other day and she goes, Daddy, I'm not pretty. I'm not pretty.

I don't have straight hair like all other girls. You know what's so interesting is one, my heart hurt, but second, I was offended. I was offended on behalf of my daughter. She can't like how That's not like she can't say that. Like, that's not the worldview she should have about herself.

Yeah. I want us to think about our Heavenly Father. How does he think about us? I think there's like a holy offense that he kind of has. Like, wait a minute, no, I've made them in my likeness and my image, like, they're my royal children.

So, to say that you're nothing is actually to say something in a way about God Himself, right? Like, so we wouldn't want to do that.

So, that's not humility, to say I'm nothing. No, that's self-deprecation. Think about the power of our words at that, even in a marriage. When we belittle and nag and see all the negative in our spouse, probably makes God sad. Like, that's not how I see him.

I've put you in his life to lift him up and to remind him of what I see in him. Yeah. And yet the enemy just clouds our vision. Talking about our marriage. That's all she's doing.

Yeah, for 20 years. She just wrote a book on that. How to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. And there was a. Yeah, your wife needs that, right?

I'm kidding, Brett. I mean, there was a time where that's what. Happened in our marriage, it was more critique, and I want you to be this, and I thought you were this, yeah, rather than, oh my goodness, look at the greatness in my spouse.

Now, there's things that we got to speak truth about, yeah, but there's also greatness that God. They're image bearers. But I love the illustration with your daughter because, as a father, you are offended. Like, what in the world? We do that with our kids.

Like, are you kidding me? Instantly, I thought, like, who said that to you? You didn't just come up like some, what, what little knucklehead kid said that to you? What's on their parents right now? Like, you know?

And so when you said that. To her, you said back, like, what I should ask, what did you say back? Yeah, I said, oh, baby girl, no, no, no, no, you're not, you're not ugly. And I say, look at how beautiful these curls are. And I love, and I just want one like overboard, honestly.

And it's not overboard, it's just honest. Like, I love the way that your hair curls and I love that the shape it takes when it bounces on your shoulders. And, and, Em, did you know that there's not many people that actually have this kind of hair? How special that God would give you this gift? And also, Em, did you know that your nanoma, which is the Thelugu word for grandmother, has this exact same hair?

And don't you love not? And she goes, Yeah, I love not like, yeah, like, well, baby, like, you have the same, like, isn't that so amazing that God and I'm actually was a friend, uh, Dr. Paul Tripp. I don't know if you guys know who Paul Tripp is. Um, I did an event with Paul years and years and years ago, and I was like, Paul, I'm trying to figure out how to like just communicate like the goodness of God to my kids.

They're much younger. Paul gave me this advice. I'll never forget. And I implemented everything that I do now with my kids. He goes, Joel, what do your kids like to do?

At that time, Liam. love playing basketball.

So I said, um he bl Liamos Combat goes, The next time you play ball with him, Just stop and go, Liam, isn't it wild how God would give us the creative thought to even think to take a ball and put it through? And like, think about this: like this circular thing, like how our hand can bend and just go through the motion, like and connect the everyday thing that we just assume. And point it to the goodness of who God is and his creative brilliance. It's like, that's the thing I want to do with my daughter. That's the thing I want to just connect.

It's like, babe, this isn't random. This isn't some like holy roll of the dice. You just happen to have curly hair. There's a God who's intentional about this. And in some way, it's actually a reflection of your grandmother.

It's a reflection of me. It's a reflection of your mom, you know? Because the world is trying to shape her into their image and their own story of who she is.

So, as parents, to remind them. This is who you are. This is who God says you are. This is a legacy that's been passed to you. It's, it's, there's a.

It's the opposite of what you're talking about in terms of the humility. It's Being Being able to see who you are in God's eyes. Yeah, it's a protection. Two more things. Second one is it's a prevention.

So humility prevents you from thinking too high of yourself. Because there's a counterbalance here, right? And the way that I would say it is like at times, we can view our relationships as if we're playing chess and the other people in our lives are all pawns. And we're happy to sacrifice them whenever we want. Right.

And so, what humility does is it's actually a prevention. It prevents us from thinking too high of ourselves. Because when we look at other people, we're forced to see other image bearers of God, other children of God. And the last one is it's a preservation, it preserves us in the faithful hands of Jesus. And that is the safest, this is the whole piece and the resolve to anxiety.

It's not that you're never going to feel anxiety, and it's not that there's not going to be anxious moments in your life. That's just not true, you know. But what it does mean is that in those moments, you're reminded of the faithful, hand-pierced hands of Jesus that hold you and preserve you and keep you in and through it. And I think that's really the power of humility. And why I think that this isn't a message that is one that we like to checklist and move on from.

I really truly believe that humility is the soil of the Christian life. It's the place from which we live from. And it goes back to that origin story. And the more that we can be. In the humility of Christ, I think the more beautiful we'll see our own life and the life of others, and we'll create beauty in the world as well.

I mean, how do you balance the The attribute of humility with confidence. Yeah. Like you want to be confident. I was a college quarterback, so there's no way I want to walk in a huddle. And exude humility.

I got to inspire 10 other guys to believe. And I remember my mentor said, you call play, they got to sense you believe this play. And there were times, literally, I'd say to my offensive lineman, in the game. Guys, you give me one extra second touchdown. Guarantee it.

Give me one. And they'd look at me like, you got it.

So when you said you. Did you mean one person? Are you only looking at the center? Are you looking at the offensive tackle? What do you mean by you?

I'm looking at. The whole huddle, so you're actually saying second person plural. This is fascinating. I'm such a nerd. You're actually saying you all, y'all.

Yeah, yeah, just so you know, Paul Southern boy. Yeah, because Paul often, when he says you in his epistles, he's actually saying y'all. Yeah, he's saying you all.

So you actually answered the question, and I think it's so brilliant. And I wish I could go back and do an edition of this because I want to quote you. I want to add it in a chapter in this book. But there's a chapter where I talk about hidden pride. And the difference between pride and confidence is actually the exchange of the I versus the we.

Okay, so um oh, that is interesting. Yeah, yeah, so okay, so Paul, when he's talking about the fruit of the spirit, this is so devastating. I think this is the one thing as I was researching doing all my theology study for the hidden pride that this. This, the hidden piece, this destroyed me because it exposed my own darkness, my own heart.

Okay, so I just say that from a place of like, whoo, this like really messed with me. I didn't want to write it because I was like, this is putting my whole life out on, like, this is really hard. Um, Paul talks about the fruit of the spirit, and we've talked about it in Galatians chapter five: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness.

So, I want to give a little example. Um, imagine your favorite fruit, whatever your favorite fruit is.

Okay, I'm Indian. Do y'all know that? I'm Indian. I didn't know that. I'm Indian.

We love mangoes. Mangoes are a great thing. And so, I'm going to pick mango for my illustration.

So, you got this mango, and it's just like, oh, it's amazing. And it looks so great from the outside. And you start digging into this mango. It's like so good. And then you get to the very center and you're like, oh, it's rotten.

There's a worm through it.

So what does that mean for the rest of the manga that I just ate? In some way, it was contaminated by that thing that was running on the inside. And hidden pride is just like that. And what's so devastating about hidden pride is that hidden pride often presents itself as the fruit of the spirit. This is devastating.

Because here we are, Christians, here we are as moms and dads and people in our family, sons and daughters, right? Like, well, no, I'm love, joy, I'm doing all those things. Love, joy, peace, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness. And you are doing it. But the aim and the ambition of the why that you're doing it is corrupt on the inside.

So the question we're asking is that I versus the we. The eye Is you're actually leveraging the fruit of the Spirit. you know, way for selfish ambition. I'm happy to love. I'm happy to have joy.

I'm happy to have all of that as long as I get what I want. There's a contingency clause that's built into it. And the way that Paul talks about the fruit of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit is always. outward and upward. It's always outward for the edification of God's people and upward for the glorification of God.

But hidden pride is always inward and inward. It's always for my own edification. Yeah. And it's actually always for my own glorification. And so, in the same way that you go into that huddle and you're talking to these guys and you're saying, there's a part of confidence where you say, no, no, no, I have a part to play.

And there's a part of it that goes, and all of you need to play your part too. Otherwise, this whole thing falls apart. Right. Center, you don't snap it. Right, right, tackle.

You don't block, like, the block scheme goes out the side. Like, we all have to, and you can't.

So you do it apart from one another. That's 100%. And this is what Paul is trying to teach us throughout the scriptures. And this is why humility is so important for us because it has. Helps us to be honest about the areas that we can be confident in.

Like, man, I really, like, I know, I've hit that throw a thousand times in practice. I can hit that throw today. I just need all of y'all to do your job. And we can do this thing. Yeah.

You see, I versus we. The question is: you know, sometimes you think confidence, which. What I was gonna say, sometimes you think confidence is pride. After I became a follower of Christ in college, so I went from playing football as a non-believer to a believer, I realized my confidence really was. Christ in me.

The gifts I had, the scholarship, everything was a gift.

So it wasn't prideful anymore. It was like it was hard. It used to be. It used to be totally. Because it was all about you.

But I think sometimes, even as a husband or a dad, you know, we're called to lead the huddle that we're leading in our home. Yeah. And we want to do that with strength. You know, and you talk about finding true strength, and we think, I think sometimes guys think. True strength isn't humble, it's prideful, and that's a good thing.

And you're saying, no, no, no, it's actually the foundations. A humble thing, right? Yes.

Yeah. It's a confidence that's rooted in honesty. It's rooted in truth. Um, and it has, like I said, an aim and ambition, and the aim and ambition is in self-glorification. It's the good of all people, which is like the essence of the gospel.

Yes, the gospel is good news, not just for me, myself, and I, it's the good news for all of us. Why did this whole concept you said like broke you? Like, it was it convicting 100%.

So, I write about it in the book. Um, basically, around the time that I'm like researching this, and I'm like, wait a minute, I have this idea. I'm not, you know, um, there's a thing that happened where I had an opportunity to be like this interim pastor for a church. And I thought in my view, I'm like, man, I do all the checklists. I don't even want to be a senior pastor ever.

Like, that's not my jam. But interim, come in, preach on a weekly basis. Like, I can crush that. Like, I feel real confident with that. And, um, And you know It kind of fell apart.

Like it, everything looked great. It looked like I was going to do it. I even had the sermon series planned as they were doing their search committee for their new person. I just got like this awkward call of like, you know, it's like a breakup with a girlfriend in high school. It's not you, it's me.

You know, that's what it kind of felt like. I was like, okay. And at the moment, I was like, I'm fine. Like, this is, this is actually good. I've got writing projects.

This is going to give me a lot of things.

So the call was what? Was we're not going with you. Like, you're not the interim guy. Like, you know, and so that's where it felt like a breakup. It was the breakup.

It was, that was like the breakup idea that I wanted to make sure. Yeah. But in that moment, I'm like, I'm fine. This is all good.

So I'm, you know. And so now months, like a month or so passes, and I see online somebody posted, and they basically are like, man, I'm so excited. I'm the new interim for this, for this church. This is hidden pride. In my heart I go.

Well Like, there's nothing special about that dude. Like, I'm like, I'm like, I mean, he's, he's good, but like, I'm way better. You know, I'm like. And everything was fine. I thought everything was fine.

And then I have a friend who is a very close friend of mine who knows me very well. And he called me. He said, Hey, man, I just saw the message. How are you doing? Fine.

No, no, no. How are you actually doing? I was like. Man, and I just went. I just like as honest as I possibly could.

And the things that I was saying in my heart at the time were like things like, well, no, that's the right fit for that person at the right time. No, God had something better for me. No, this is actually going to work out because I've got more. You see, like, I had used these virtues, I'd used the fruit of the spirit in a way, but really internally in my own heart, it was all about my own ambition. It was all about my own vain conceit.

It was about like how I could glorify myself. And the Lord just exposed it. I was like, nah, that's hidden pride. Like, you know, and you're presenting it as everything's fine. Everything's good.

How do we notice the hidden pride in ourselves? Yeah, this is so hard because, you know, the scriptures often say that in the Psalms, like the heart is deceptive amongst all things. And in the Hebrew, the hard lay, it has in mind, we think of like the heart and mind separated. The mind is the place of intellect. The heart is the place of emotion.

The Hebrews understood the heart is the place of the seat of both volition and emotion. That's like the center of it. This is why it's in the heart is so deceitful.

So, one is like sometimes you can't see your own blind spots. That's why it's called a blind spot.

So, you need to have some people in your life that love Jesus more than they love you. And I said it exactly how I wanted to say it. They love Jesus more than they love you. Um, and so I've got a group of friends. Uh, actually, in the back, the dedication, uh, acknowledgments is to a group of guys.

They're called, um, you guys want to laugh. Uh, it's called to the Chicago Boys, B-O-Y-Z. It's our group chat. We're actually in fantasy football season right now. All right, I won our first game last week.

Let's go. I don't know right now. Derek Henry did it for us. Thank you, thank you, Derek. Oh man, he did a big one.

But these guys, let me tell you, they're so unimpressed with me. We grew up together. We came up together. A bunch of them are all Indians, parents, all immigrants. Like, we literally came up together, and they are so unimpressed with me.

When this book came out, they started to call me the next day, like, man, you okay? I was like, why? He's like, who in the right mind would buy a book from you?

So unimpressed. But they're the, it's so good for my soul. It is so good for me to have some people that are so unimpressed with me, but know me, like, really know me in the way that I'm wired and love me. And they love Jesus more than they love me. And so they're there, and they're not dependent on me for anything.

I can't do anything for them. They're not connected to me vocationally. They're not connected. There's no platform that I can give them. Like, it's just like, no, there's a pure kind of a purity to it.

They're boys. They're just my boys, you know? And same for them. Like, I'm that same thing for them. And so sometimes you need some other people to look and to call out that thing.

The second thing is, I think we need to make prayer a regular part of the process where we ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate the areas of our heart that we're not. Oh, yeah. Created me a new heart, oh Lord. Right. And so that's the second thing.

The third thing is if you're married, you know, your spouse is like the best person. Who else can know you than your counterpart? who in love. You know, it's kinda like that bank, like man, they have invested so much positive. that when they do say that thing, that is a bit of like, whew, that was tough.

That emotional bank of positivity and encouragement so can cover the hit. Of that criticism or that critique that comes in that's honest and true. Yeah. That we need to hear. And that ratio is important.

Yes.

I think so. The positive, the deposits. And then, so have you had any? where your wife has said, Hey Any? Do we have to?

Have you recently? Anything come to mind? 100%. 100% I've had. The way that I talk to my boys sometimes can be very like coach militant, like I didn't have a dad growing up that cared much about sports, didn't teach me that kind of stuff.

I still joke to this day. I just need a couple more inches. I could have gone at least D1 basketball. I could have gone hoops, you know. Yeah, I read something about you.

You had a pretty rude crossover behind the back. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was known for my crossover.

Now I'm just a spot up three-point shooter. Tuesday nights. The guys that come to the press, they know. But, you know, for me, it was like, hey, babe, sometimes you talk to the boys more like you're their coach and like a sergeant in the boot camp than like you're just their dad. I'm like, what do you mean?

No, they love it. They love when I'm so we're doing this thing now where I'm trying to take one of the kids out in the morning. Just having four kids is hard, you know, so just one. And so we rotate every week on Tuesday. I take a different kid out to breakfast before I go into the office, before they go to school, and took my son out and we just kind of processed that.

And I was like, hey, man, how do you feel? How do you feel? And he's like, in my seven. And I was like, Dad, you know, I really love it when you coach me up, but sometimes. Like, I got my coach.

I don't need you to coach me up. And I was like, woof. I get it. It's a good word. It's a good word.

Yeah. You know, and so just my wife has this ability to see in me. And for me, it's like a place of actual, like, I so desperately wanted that growing up. I just never had it. I never had anybody teach me how to shoot a jump shot.

I had to literally watch Michael Jordan shoot a jump shot. Like, if you watch my, like, anything about my game, it's like very much 90s bulls, you know, Steve Kerr, BJ, BJ Armstrong. I mean, I watched those guys hoop, you know, Tony Kukoach. Yeah. And so, but the problem is that that place of like honesty and goodness that you kind of.

Are coming from can also become a place of hurt to your children because they don't need that. Like they're already getting a healthy dose of it. And so I just needed Britt to like be like, hey, you know, and then the other one, honestly, the big one, you guys, is like to apologize, apologize when I mess up. And I hate that. I do too.

Especially with my kids. I can do it with my kids. It's with Dave. It's the hardest. I feel like God just continues to reveal.

This pridefulness in me, like, I, you know, especially it's, He's showing me now, but I had been doing it for years, thinking I'm so much better at relationship stuff with us than Dave. He's so out of touch with feelings and emotions. Pure pride. And when I put that mirror up, and that's the beauty of God's word. Yeah.

Man, it exposes, um and it's in all of us. When a good buddy or your wife critiques you or gives you You know, knowledge about a blind spot, it's a blind spot because you're blind, you can't see it, and everybody else can. And when you respond, like, I don't want to hear that, or you're wrong, that is nothing but pride.

Now, there are sometimes people are wrong and they say things that they miss. But if we're not open to, I need your critique, I need your feedback, I grow if I get it. That's a symptom of pride because humility says, I need it. I want it. Please give it to me.

I mean, we had a, I helped start a church 35 years ago, and from day one, my co-founders and I said, every sermon I give, I want feedback the second I walk off the stage. I'm going to preach this three more times today. Make it better. What did I miss? That's such a college quarterback.

I was like, don't tell me anything. I already think I'm horrible. I need 24 hours. I need 24 hours because you will devastate my heart. It's so personal.

But that's like, I love that. Me too. It's so college. We got a second quarter here. I just did the first.

Let's win the second quarter. If I blew the first one, this is so Dave. Like, I love that about you. I love it. Hi friends, I'm Luke Middendorf, President of Family Life, and this is my wife, Christina.

Together, we have the privilege of leading Family Life and serving families just like yours. This year has had its challenges, but God's promises do remain true. Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. We've seen that hope come alive through family life. Marriages restored, families renewed, and faith strengthened.

And your generosity makes this possible. As the year ends, will you join us in helping more families experience the joy and renewal only God provides? You can give at familylifetoday.com or or by calling 800FL today. Together, let's carry the hope of Christ into the year ahead. You know, one of the themes I've noticed in the last decade.

Yeah, and at least American Christianity, because it's in a lot of our worship songs now. Is identity, our identity in Christ, which is a beautiful thing to understand. Really, I had one of my preachers say: you know, when you walk in a room, understanding who you are. Who you are in Christ. His language was, you own that room.

And it sounds like you're being cocky and confident. He's like, no, this isn't cocky. This is, I know who I'm in, Christ.

So I'm not walking in there trying to impress anybody. I don't need to impress anybody. I've impressed the God of the universe who's impressed with me.

So I walk in with a confidence that's secure, it's humble, rather than a cockiness to try and wow you.

So talk about how understanding my identity in Christ is also humility. Yeah, so one of Paul's favorite phrases is in Christ. The Greek phrase is in Christos. And it has to do, that phrase has to do with living in the sphere of the power and the authority of King Jesus.

So you think about John chapter 1, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, through him, all things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, then it goes on. The idea that there's like a singular reason right now that the sun doesn't just burn up the entire earth. There's a singular reason why the moon doesn't collapse onto the earth, why our feet, singular reason, why our feet stay on the ground and not float.

And that singular reason is Christ Jesus. He's holding all things together.

So to say that we are in Christ, our identity is in Christ is fundamentally a statement of humility. It's fundamentally a statement of who is Christ. But Christ is the one who's holding all things together. And then I would want to contrast that with 2 Corinthians chapter 5. Paul talks about the ministry of reconciliation, and he says that you and I are ambassadors of Christ.

In the Greco-Roman world, that word ambassador, it was a very specific, significant word. It was a word to represent a dignitary that was a representative of the royal king.

So, where you went, the authority and the power and the presence of that king went. You know, it's kind of this fascinating detail. I'm a US citizen, like born in the United States. I was in India just a couple of weeks ago. We went to the American consulate.

Fascinating detail. The second I'm in India, but I walked into the American consulate. Guess where I was? United States. United States is wild.

Yeah. Wait a minute. I'm in India. Right. So there's this sense as ambassadors of Christ, where we go, the kingdom of God goes.

Gosh, that's such a good reminder. Where we go, the power, and the presence, and the authority. Of Jesus goes very important distinction between our identity being in Christ and we are Christ. And this is where pride comes in. Yeah.

Pride comes in to actually cut out Christ. And uses Christ as a means for us to exercise the power and authority as if it's innate of ourselves. and not from a posture of humility that says, no, we received this thing. Like, we are given this by King Jesus for a purpose. And the purpose is the exaltation of Jesus and the expansion of his kingdom.

And so, all the places that we walk into, we're on assignment, we're on a mission. You know, it's the worst for me on airplanes because I am not a talker. Like, I talk a lot for work.

So, when I get on an airplane, I just want to sit and put the headphones on. I don't want to talk to nobody, you know? You know, and sometimes every now and then I'm next to a talker. And it doesn't matter what I read. Like, I had this is a funny one.

I'm reading a theology book. The guy next to me goes, Hey man, what are you reading? And I said, Well, it's called Jesus the Sage. It's about Second Temple literature and Jesus' wisdom. And the guy looks at me and he goes, He cusses and says, That's cool.

Really? No joke. And we spent the next two hours back to Charlotte. Talking about Jesus and talking about his experience in the faith and talking about his ayahuasca DMT Drug trips that he does. And like, it got very like, and I got the opportunity to kind of just share the gospel with him.

And so I ended with, like, hey, you know, that ayahuasca DMT stuff that you do? It's like, I was like, why do you do it? He goes, well, I just want to like meet the spirits. I want to be connected to the spiritual. I go, man, there's this really amazing thing about Christianity.

When we give our lives to Jesus, we get the indwelling Holy Spirit. Ian, you don't need to go on here. He lives in you. He lives in you. Yeah.

He's like, what? Talk about a trip. Yeah. Well, there's much more cussing that happened throughout that entire thing. And I can only imagine what other people are thinking.

You know, you had like this Indian theologian guy talking to, like, you know, but I'm like, so those are like, man, where you go, the kingdom of God goes. Are you open to how God wants to use you, even if it's uncomfortable and you don't, you know, and I. Didn't want to have that conversation, frankly. I mean, talk about humility. How humble is it to realize God put you?

Beside that guy. Joel, I would want to sit beside you on a plane. I would talk, I would ask you a million questions. What a fortunate guy like that was God ordained because he's in you. And he wanted to talk to this guy beside you.

And you allowed him to. I mean, let me ask you this: how does humility? What does it look like in your marriage? Oh man. I think in my marriage, uh I have a funny story in the book.

It's called The Time Kelly Clarkson Uninvited Me. Oh, yeah, yeah. I read it. You read that one? Yeah.

Tell her. Tell her. Yeah. So my wife is super funny. She's hilarious.

She's like a social media celebrity. Her handle is almost Indian wife. She's white. I'm Indian. Hence the tagline.

I have to look her up. She's, yeah, she's so funny. And one of our video, one of her videos went viral, like crazy viral. It was right as COVID was ending. And it's a picture, it's a video of my little daughter, Emmy.

She must have been like two at the time, running to say hi to her brothers who are just getting off of the bus. And it's this cute moment where Em's just running. She's like doing the penguin waddle, like running as fast as she can, and she's yelling Bubbas, which is what she calls her older brothers. And the boys see her and they just lose it because they had, this is the first time in five, you know, five years that they had, no, she must have been, she's born on, so this must have been, she must have been three.

So this is the first time like three years that they have been like separated, you know, and they're seeing each other and It's just like this magnet to each other. The kids are throwing off their backpacks. They still have their masks on. They're throwing off their mats, like all this stuff. And they just embrace.

And it's like, she's yelling, Babas, and they're yelling, Emmy, I see you. And y'all, Britt went to bed that night, posted that video, went to bed that night. It wasn't even like the content that she typically posts. But it was like, this is just too wholesome. Like, we just need to post it.

Went to bed, woke up the next day, and her phone broke. Like wouldn't turn on. I look at my phone, my phone is blowing up. It's like, Joel, um Beyonce's mom, Joel, Keenan Kell, Joel, uh, good morning, America. I'm like, what are why are they naming all these celebrities?

Yeah, Janet Jackson, Joel, Janet Jackson. I'm like, what? And I look, and the video had like overnight 7 million views. Come on. I'm looking it up.

She's got a lot of followers.

Well, I bet she got a lot from that. Yeah. And now she's been doing this now for the last, you know, six years or whatever. And so it's been, yeah, that's the video. That's it right there.

We should put this. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Yeah. And it's just, but I think what people saw in it was they saw themselves. I think they saw like one, like, oh, this is what like love should look like.

This makes me cry. I'm watching it. It's the sweetest thing ever. It is so sweet. And people like, they just saw it.

Like, then they, and they're like, oh, and it, what the cool thing is in the comments section, it's like, people are like, I haven't talked to my brother in years. Wow. This makes me want to reach out to him, or I have no relationship with my sister. And, like, this makes me want to, like, I remember this moment as a kid. I, and so, like, you know, that thing came out.

So, anyways, Kelly Clarkson, which, if you're listening, Kelly, I'm still a huge fan. She was like, Hey, we'd love to have your family on for an interview, it was like a Zoom interview or whatever. I was like, Yeah, absolutely. And so I'm sitting and I'm like, I do this for a living, you guys. Like, I do podcasts and I'm like, this is my time to shine.

Talking about pride. Like, I'm going to crush it. Here we go. Wait, right? And I'm giving advice to my wife and my kids: like, guys, the producers are going to come on, they're going to ask this, you know, like I'm doing all the things.

And I sit down, and the producer's up, and we've got the set set up, and the producer goes, Okay, Brittany, we know who you are. Kids, we know who you are. Emmy, everybody knows who you are. Sir, who are you? That's good.

My name's Joel. I'm dad.

Somebody. And they're like looking through their notes, like frantically flipping. He's a family of six on a couch. And the guy goes, you know what? Did you take the video?

I said, no, I was at work. Were you in the video? No, I was at work.

Well, we just, there's a lot of you guys, and we just think it might be good for it to just be the people who are in the video.

So instantly, I'm like, oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, I'm totally good. Like, and I'm like, I set them up and I get them ready. And I can tell, like, we're about to go live in like five minutes. And then the guy goes, Hey, can you please make sure you hide behind the wall?

Make sure we don't see you. I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I'm, you know, and here I am. Like, there's like, I, there's this place, this wall in our house, and I'm hiding behind the wall. And I'm thinking. How did this happen to me?

You know? Yeah. And that's just like, that's just like a humility moment where just like, oh man. Yeah. It's like so life.

And I had to like process it, you know, like, how did I feel? How did that make me feel? What insecurities came up inside of me? What are the performance things about me that the Lord was exposing in my heart? You know?

And then the tension of like, Man, I'm so proud of my wife. Like, I'm so happy that the kids get to experience this. Like, so you have this tension of like, Lord, I love this, but I'm also like, Why can't I be in it? And more than that, why can't I be the star of it? That's exactly what our kids go through, too.

Even then, I think the enemy can whisper: it's because you're nobody. Right. And that can happen to our kids because you're not important, you know, just those lies of the enemy. And it's keeping that balance, it's just what you're talking about. I think, and honestly, Gets more deceptive because then it goes, or more destructive.

It goes, it's because your wife doesn't value you. Yes.

Your kids don't need you anymore.

So many things. Right. And it just and it can spiral. Yes.

So, how did you not spiral or go the other way? Like, I am so much, I am who I made this family. I mean, I did do that. I did do that initially. And I had, honestly, frankly, I've got some good friends.

One of her, the gal's name is Lisa Turkhurst, who's a great big sister that helps kind of navigate some of these things. And we've got a group of us that we all study the Bible together and like we do real life.

So, like, we literally just like this. It's like me, Lisa, Meredith Shea, Leah. Like, we're all like this group of us at Proverbs that we study and we work on each other's projects. Did you share that whole story? 100%.

I shared it. And what did they say? And they just were like, they were so honest. They're like, man, like, laugh, first laughed hysterically like you guys did. And the second deal is like, ask some prodding questions.

You know, and and then Lise was like, Have you talked to Britt about it? I was like, why? Why do I need this? Is a me issue? She's like, oh no, this isn't a me issue, you know?

And it opened a conversation, a dialogue for me to be able to just share what my, which is not easy for me. I'm not an emotions guy. It's like, oh, just share, share what it made you feel and why it made you feel that way. And I think that easily happens in marriage, where especially if you're a young mom and maybe you were super successful in your career and now you're spending more time at home, you can be thinking like, I don't do anything. You know, but you're raising these kids that are warriors for the kingdom.

Yeah. You know, you're discipling them, but it's not. You went through that. I did. Like, who am I apart from what I do?

The identity thing. Yeah. Yeah, and I think as guys, we go through it in some way, I mean, a million different ways. But one of the ways I went through it is at the workplace, they think I'm pretty amazing. I come home.

You don't think of that amazing. I wanna go You know, I'm good at this. Right. And they acknowledge that. And here I'm just the guy.

And it's like, You know what? That's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to lay down my life. Ephesians 5 to love and lead and serve her and these kids. And it's not about me and my title.

It's literally about, it's not about me at all. Yeah. But I want to be God's man for this family. But it's, you got to, you got to put it down.

Well, speak about humility. Ephesians 5 is so fascinating that, you know, the most like provocative verse in that is wives submit to your husbands. But in the ancient world, the thing that's most crazy about that entire thing is that Paul says that one statement to wives, which by the way, the Greek word submit, huptaso, it doesn't even show up in that verse in the original manuscripts. It belongs there, but it's supplied by the head verb, which is mutual submission in Christ Jesus.

So it's actually the husband and wife are submitting to Christ Jesus, which obviously makes submission in that context so easy because it's like, well, we're both are following Jesus. What people would have lost their minds on is how many verses that Paul spends on talking about the guys. Yes.

You would never do that in the Greco-Roman world. I mean, there are so many dudes that are. In the nature of the wait, that wouldn't have happened. No, no, no, no, no. In the Greco-Roman world, there's no way that anybody would have spent in a patriarchal society that they would have spent that much real estate in an ancient letter, which costs a lot of money to put together to.

Call men out on the carpet for how they treat their wives and how they lay down their life and how they should wash their wives in the word and how they should be self-sacrificial, like the way that Jesus was. Like, there's a series of sentences that are dedicated to the men's responsibility, and there's this one sentence that's about the woman's submission. And so, again, the context helps us to go: like, every dude that's in the city, in the church in Ephesus, which is probably a circular letter, so it's going to other places as well, their jaws are dropping, they're sweating. They are wondering if they put deodorant on that day or not. Like, it was bad because they're like.

We're getting called out significantly here. Wow. Yeah. It was very, very revolutionary, which makes sense why the church exploded the way that it did in the first century. Yeah.

Humility. Humility is the answer to that. You got to be able to receive that humbly. I mean, there's such I've got such a pride problem. Yeah.

I mean, we all do. We all do. You know, it's, you have to kill it. Yeah. You literally have to like stab it when it raises.

I was years ago, my co-founder and I were speaking at a pastor's conference, probably 500 pastors there. Hey, we want to learn from you. Your church is growing, blah, blah, blah. And somehow something came up about pride. And I say this quote from the stage.

I go, hey, I don't know who said this, but I heard somebody say, in every church, every situation, you want to crown a king. You always want to crown a king. We're talking about King Saul and you just want to crown a king. And I go. What we decide to do at our church is not let it not let them crown you king.

Don't let it let them do it. They're going to try, don't let them do it. Yeah. And they're like, oh, wow, that was, you know, that was a great statement. The next day, I see on Twitter, and we're going back to do a second day.

One of the guys there said, My co-founder said, He said, Hey, Steve said yesterday this. It was my quote. Uh-huh. And I saw in my soul like He didn't say that. I saw that.

I said that. That's my quote. Anyway, the quote is: everyone wants to crown a king. And here I am saying, I want that to be knowledgeable for me. Look at the pride in me.

It's like, just go. It was said. It's a good quote. Who cares who said it? But I saw, look what's inside me.

Oh, yeah, 100%. Love it. And I want my wife to crown me a king. You know, it's like you want your kids to crown you king. And we're literally called to lay it down.

Yeah. And that's the hidden piece. This has been great. We could talk to you forever. Like, you have so many great stories in your book as well that talk about humility and examples of it.

Like. You talk about your grandfather this story. I'm like, oh my goodness, this story was crazy. But you're going to have to get the book as a listener. You're going to want to get this.

Is there anything else that you're like, man, this is so on my heart to reveal this about this topic? I would just say the last couple of places that I've been teaching and speaking at, I just felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to say it. And I want to say it to you guys as well is, It all comes down to a very simple idea, which is just don't miss Jesus. Hmm. Like Uh, my friend Jim Kress, who's also part of our Therapy and Theology podcast, Jim's statement is: it's something can be simple, but far from being simplistic.

And this is that thing: it's like it's so simple, like, don't miss Jesus, but it's far from being simplistic because it's like. Don't miss Jesus on his own terms. not the Jesus that we're trying to create in our own image. You know, and the invitation to humility is really an invitation to the life of Christ. And Philippians 2 puts that on powerful display.

The humble high king of heaven who comes and he really gives up his life, like what we just talked about, for the reconciliation, the restoration of humanity. It's like, man, don't miss Jesus because if we see Jesus, it will change everything for our lives. Can we be humble apart from him? I can't. I don't think so.

I can't. Yeah. I think that any type of humility apart from Christ is still self-motivated.

So what's an action step for our listeners? What do you think? Here's the thing that you can do that I think is so fascinating. When you feel like the world is falling apart, when you feel like anxiety has hit you, stress has, you know, here's what I want you all to do. If weather allows, I want you to go outside.

Even if it's raining, if there's no thunderstorm, no lightning, or whatever, still go outside and take your socks off and find a patch of grass and put your feet in the grass. And I want you to look up into the skies. And if it's the day, pay attention to the clouds and where the sun is. If it's nighttime, look at the stars, where the moon is. and remind yourself of this simple truth.

you don't have to do anything to hold it all together. He does. He does. He does. Yeah.

Don't miss Jesus. It's really good. That's a good word. And by the way, you can get Joel's book, The Hidden Peace, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the link in the show notes.

And we'll also put in the show notes that video, which I haven't even seen. It's so good. Yeah, it looks great. Thanks, man. You bad.

Thank you guys. Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button. Yeah, and we'd like you to subscribe.

So, all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. Like and subscribe.

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

Okay.