This faith and finance podcast is underwritten in part by Eventide Center for Faith and Investing. They are an educational initiative of Eventide Asset Management that seeks to help Christians understand and practice biblically faithful investing. For a free list of faith-based funds from Eventide Center for Faith and Investing, visit faithandinvesting.com slash faithfi. That's faithandinvesting.com slash faithfi. Romans 12-9 says, Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good.
I am Rob West. It may not be intuitive, but this verse is a compelling guide for applying our faith to our investment decisions. We'll talk with Jason Meyer today about how we can love without hypocrisy as we invest our money.
Then we'll take your calls at 800-525-7000, that's 800-525-7000. This is faith and finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well joining us again today is Jason Meyer, Executive Director of the Eventide Center for Faith and Investing, an educational initiative of Eventide Asset Management, and an underwriter of this program. Jason, welcome back. It's always great to have you.
Hey Rob, so good to be with you. Jason, I'd like to talk today about how we can bring our faith into our investment decision making in a deeper way. And I know you have a verse that you think can help us in that objective, so why don't you share that with us? Sure, it's a simple verse from the book of Romans 12 and 9, and it reads, let love be without hypocrisy, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good.
Now before we can apply it to investing, I think it's important to just expound for a moment on some of what's here, because I think there's a lot of richness here. And the first thing I think is really fascinating about this verse is the opening line, let love be without hypocrisy. The word hypocrisy is actually a fascinating choice of words for the Apostle Paul. And that's because in his day, hypocrisy was a theater term that referred to acting. In fact, the Greek word for actor was hypocrite. And in Greek theater, the actors or the hypocrites would often wear masks over their faces as a part of their costumes in order to portray emotion, including to people who may be sitting far away from the stage. And so these masks would have really exaggerated smiles or frowns or angry faces.
Maybe you've seen these pictures before of what Greek theater looked like. And so the idea that Paul is describing here is that hypocrisy means those that are only play-acting or pretending, and there's really a different person behind the so-called mask, which is where we get that expression today. So when Paul says, let love be without hypocrisy, he's saying, let's not pretend here. Let's not act like we love, let's really love. And I think, of course, we should all recognize that love is paramount to the Christian life. Jesus taught us that love is actually the greatest requirement that God has for us.
We are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves, and our love must be real. It must be genuine.
It must be authentic. Yeah, that's so helpful, Jason, and fascinating about the idea of hypocrisy coming from Paul specifically and how love needs to be genuine. Draw this out even further because I know there's a lot more there.
Yeah. The other thing I think that's really helpful about what Paul is saying here is that he points out what real love actually looks like. And I find this helpful because I don't know about you, but I sometimes struggle with the thought that I may not be an authentic Christian. My love may not be genuine. Am I a fraud?
Am I a pretender? And we all struggle with doubt at various times about the authenticity of our faith. And Paul tells us here how we can know that our love is real.
There's actually a litmus test for our love. And he tells us that it consists in two things, abhorring what is evil and clinging to what is good, abhorring what's evil and clinging to what's good. Now notice here the strong emotional language that he's using. So abhorring what is evil. To abhor means a passionate kind of hatred, actually. And this might be a surprise to think that Christian love could contain hate. But if you think about it, we are to rightly be angry and hateful towards anything in God's world that would disfigure it or distort it or misdirect it or malign or twist or destroy or pervert anything that's good in God's world, right? God has anger toward sin and its destructive effects on our world. And so we, like God, are to rightly be angry as well.
That's so helpful, Jason. Well, when we come back after the break, we're going to talk about the last part of that passage there, Romans 12 9, clinging to what is good. What does that mean? And then how do we apply all of that to investing as we think about aligning our values and our faith as believers to the deployment of capital, the investment decisions we're making. We're talking today with Jason Meyer, executive director of the Eventide Center for Faith and Investing, an educational initiative of Eventide Asset Management. Much more to come just around the corner. Stick around.
We'll be right back. We are grateful for support from the Eventide Center for Faith and Investing. ECFI is an educational initiative of Eventide Asset Management that seeks to help Christians understand and practice biblically faithful investing. They do this through their podcast and online journal featuring articles from industry thought leaders and their course called Discover God's Story for Investing. More information is available at faithandinvesting.com. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. We're talking today about real Christian love in investing. Our guest today is Jason Meyer, executive director of the Eventide Center for Faith and Investing, and Jason's unpacking a passage in Romans. You'll know it well. It comes from chapter 12 verse 9.
Let me read it. Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. And before the break, Jason was sharing with us that Christian love expresses itself with hatred toward what is evil. And Jason, this is quite different than the modern conception of love in our secular world today, isn't it?
Yes, it is. So many today would simply understand love as, in modern terms, as acceptance, as tolerance, as affirmation. Today there's no real category of evil since many people hold to a belief that all morals are relative. What's evil to you may not be evil to me is how the thinking goes.
But this is a lie, right? So Christian, there is a real moral order to which we all must give an account and real Christian love recognizes this moral order and responds appropriately at times with hate towards all those things that disfigure the goodness of God's world. Well that's exactly right. Now take us into the rest of that passage, Jason, because then right at the end we pivot to this idea of clinging to what is good.
Right. As well as hatred, of course, that's not the only impulse of Christian love. Clinging to what is good is where we are to be as well.
And I don't know if you noticed it, but that's actually strong emotional language as well. Cling to is the biblical expression for marriage. So in Genesis chapter two, we read, for this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and cling to or marry his wife and the two shall become one flesh. To cling to what is good means to marry what is good, to be united with what is good, to hold fast to what is good. Underneath all the fallenness we see in the world is actually goodness. In Genesis chapter one, God declared this world to be good seven times over. And because of God's common grace, this goodness still shines out, even in our fallen world today.
And we must be those that not only express hatred for evil, but are also clinging to everything that is good in the world. That's so helpful. There's so much richness there. Well now, Jason, let's turn the corner. I'd love for you to help us connect this to investing. How can this passage guide us in applying our faith to our investing decisions? Right, right. Investing. I thought we were just doing a Bible study here, Rob.
Exactly. No, because of the centrality of love in the Christian life, this verse can really be a guide for any aspect of our life, including our investing. And I have just kind of three simple points I want to leave us with. Number one, we need to add moral discernment to our investing decisions. So the world today tells us that there are really only two things we need to pay attention to in investing, risk and return. And these are very important for the Christian as well to consider, but more important than these is actually discerning good and evil in our investing decisions. The world of investing does not have to be a mystery. Behind all the numbers and charts of investing is a world of business. When we invest, we're investing in businesses and profiting from businesses, real businesses, making real things with real practices, having a real impact in our very real world.
And we cannot be naive. The world of business is not morally neutral. There are moral goods and moral evils in the world of legally operating publicly traded companies. And Christians especially need to be those that seek to recognize this. And we need to add, I believe today, more moral discernment to our investing decisions.
Yeah, that's helpful. And to borrow a phrase from scripture, we need to know the condition of our flocks and herds. So that was point number one.
Take us to what's next. Sure. Number two, seek to avoid investing in companies with bad products or practices. Okay, so after bringing moral discernment, it should really result in avoiding those things that are bad. And one of the things that you'll immediately discover as you try to do this and bring moral judgment to investing is that it's not always straightforward. Not every company can be easily categorized as either good or evil.
But the good news is that there are some things that are easier to discern. And there's a growing consensus among the Christian investment community today around five big areas of moral avoidance. These are companies that are involved in various ways with abortion, tobacco, pornography, gambling, and alcohol. These are areas that have been consistently identified as a starting place for applying this avoidance of evil in our investing decisions. And the faith-based investing industry can assist you in seeking to avoid entanglements in these and more areas.
Yeah, that's exactly right. And the exciting thing has been to watch this industry of faith-based investing really growing and flourishing with new products and new opportunities, even just in the last few years. All right, let's turn our attention then to that third way to apply our faith in our investing decisions.
Right. So number one was bringing moral discernment to bear. Number two was avoiding companies with bad products and bad practices.
And number three is embracing companies with good products and good practices. As Christians, maybe it isn't surprising that there's this presence of evil in our fallen world. But what might actually surprise us is why is there good in the world, given the reality of the fall? But good exists because of God's common grace, which restrains sin in the world to a degree to give all a chance to taste something of the goodness of God's creation in our lives. And what this means is that even through the lives of unbelievers and so-called secular business, we can still find a lot of genuine goodness existing in the world of business. In fact, we call the products that business creates, we call them goods and services. And the reason we do this is because the products of business are intended to be good and to serve the world. And we do find that many businesses today still do this very well.
There are many businesses that have goods and services. And so faith-based investments can also assist us in investing in companies that have this genuine goodness about them as well, this second dimension of love. Mm. Jason, this is so good.
Well, we are just about out of time. So I'd love for you to tell our listeners how they can take the next step in bringing their faith to investing. Sure. So I've created a resource for you today that's simply a list of the faith-based investment products that are out there. These are products that aim to implement some of the takeaways that we talked about from Romans 12.9. And to get that resource, you can go to faithandinvesting.com slash FaithFi, that's faithandinvesting.com slash FaithFi. Yeah, I know so many of you are looking for those actual investment solutions that deploy a faith-based investing approach. And this list will help you do that. Jason, of course, you and I have been working together and we were excited to announce recently that we've taken that list of Certified Kingdom Advisors and now those folks who want to find an advisor who can implement this type of investing that you're describing, they can actually filter the list of CKAs by those who specifically offer faith-based investing. And I know this is a big addition to this space, isn't it? Yeah, I'm so excited about this, the ability to actually hone in and find someone who can help specifically with the faith-based investing aspect.
Yeah, that's exactly right. You can find that at faithfi.com slash find, that's faithfi.com slash find. Jason, always great to have you, my friend. Thanks for stopping by. My pleasure.
Thanks for having me. That's Jason Meyer, Executive Director of the Eventide Center for Faith and Investing, an educational initiative of Eventide Asset Management and an underwriter of this program. Again, that website, faithandinvesting.com slash FaithFi. Your questions are next, 800-525-7000.
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More information, including the short video webinar on profit and peace of mind, no matter what's happening in the market, is available at soundmindinvesting.org. Hey, I'm so glad you're joining us today for Faith and Finance. It's our privilege to serve you each day and answer your questions. Thanks for inviting us into your stories. By the way, if you have a story, we want to hear it. We love to hear when God is on the move in your financial life and where this program played a role in helping you to understand His timeless truths.
We were just reflecting on some stories we heard recently. We heard from a listener recently named Charles who had previously been incarcerated. He was an addict, and the Lord is now out of prison. He has cleaned up his life. He is beyond his addiction and working on that, and he's now a faithful giver.
What was great was he called the show and he said, listen, I've gotten free from my addiction and the Lord has saved me. Now I'm giving regularly. I'm tithing. I love that. But the Lord convicted me.
I was behind on my taxes. So we got him connected to one of our good friends, Kevin Cross, who's a Christian certified public accountant. Kevin said, you know what? I just want to help him. I'm not going to charge him a penny. Well, Charles called the other day and he said, Rob, I want you to know I paid my taxes and I've never heard somebody so joyfully telling me that they paid their taxes. He was so grateful that he was current and that he was in compliance with the IRS. And what a blessing that we could help him in that way. And the Lord is on the move in his life.
That's what it's all about. And so, hey, if you have a story of how God has been at work in your life and how there's a dotted line connection back to our program, would you tell us about it? You can call 800-525-7000 or just shoot us a note to askrobb at faithfi.com and we will make sure our team gets in touch with you because we'd love to hear it. By the way, if you have a question today, we might have room for one or two between now and the end of the program, 800-525-7000 and if you want to share a testimony live on the air, you could call that number as well.
We'd love to hear from you about that also. All right, let's go to West Palm Beach, beautiful West Palm Beach. Hi, Candace.
How can I help? Hi! It actually is very beautiful. It is.
I am doing that as well. I was just there at Palm Beach Atlantic. I was a few blocks from Worth Avenue and it is just spectacular.
I was coming over the causeway there and just, yeah, it's great. Anyway, how can I help you? Okay, so I wanted to get your thoughts. I currently, Michael and I currently have a three bedroom, two bathroom and we're looking to upgrade because my parents are planning on moving in with me and we have 260, we're planning on selling, so we'll be having 260 in a deposit towards somewhere, but our ballpark was a 500, but it's a little tricky finding a four bedroom at that price point. So I mean, worst case, we'd be willing to, I mean, not ideally, but probably going to like 540, but that's going to probably be about 30% of our take home and I know 25% is the ideal.
I kind of just wanted to get your thoughts on that. We do have about 30 in emergency savings and that's on top of, so I will, we still would be doing or 401k contributions and we do tight, so I kind of just wanted to have, yeah, I'd be comfortable with that. I mean, I think, you know, between 25 and 30% of your take home for principal interest taxes and insurance and then another 5%, so if you're at 25, you know, add 5% to that or if you're 30 add five, so you go up as high as 35% with the other categories as well. So that's going to include home maintenance and utilities and homeowners association, that kind of thing. So I think you're right in the ballpark there and I think given that, you know, you're making, you're using the guideline as a starting point, but then it's ultimately about how does the budget work itself out with real numbers and if you're telling me that, yeah, we can continue to give, we can continue to pay, you know, put money in, in our 401ks and make the budget balance by going up to 30%, I could get on board with that, which would allow you to go, you know, up to five 40 and I love that you're starting with the budget, not starting with the shopping because you know what happens is you get out there and you say, well, somewhere in the five to six range and then all of a sudden you find yourself at six 50 cause you found the perfect house and you're trying to back into how you can do it and that's just a losing battle. And so I think once you establish you're not to exceed price, then we just trust the Lord that he's going to provide something and it may be in his timing and not yours. You may want to find it on the first weekend and it might take a little while, but I think just be vigilant in trying to stick to your budget once you establish it. But bottom line is, am I comfortable with you going up to 30% of take home pay for your mortgage payment?
As long as you've run the numbers and actually put it into a budget that is realistic and you can make it work. Yes, I'm comfortable with that. Thank you so very much. I really look kind of why it made sense was I'm like, I don't want to miss out on an opportunity because I'm being too narrow minded if that means.
No, I think you're being really thoughtful about this Candice. So well done and we appreciate your call. God bless you. Thank you very much. All right. To Boynton Beach, Florida. George.
Go ahead, sir. Thanks for taking my call. We tied to a church last year and then changed churches. We didn't receive documentation of giving from the church we left. We've tried to contact the church but haven't got a response.
And I'm wondering what documentation the IRS needs from a church in order for me to claim a deduction. Yeah. Do you itemize your deductions, George, or do you take the standard deduction? Itemize. You do. Okay.
So if you do itemize, I mean, ideally you would get that contribution statement. And is this a church that's out of the area or something or is it right near you? You just don't attend there any longer.
It's right near me. Okay. Because what I may do, I mean, is it a very small church? Yes. Okay. So they don't have an online giving platform where you could log in and try to print off a statement. Correct? No.
Okay. Well, I mean, hopefully they have a business office or at least somebody that's the business administrator. And I might just drive by there and just stop in during normal business hours, maybe on a Tuesday through Friday. A lot of times on a Monday, maybe the business office is closed or Friday. But I'd go by there and just say, hey, I just need to pick up a giving statement and this is not going to be uncommon there.
Undoubtedly have other people asking for the same thing if you're having trouble getting them on the phone. Because really, ideally you want to have that contribution statement from the church. Now the other option is you just kind of add up your canceled checks or electronic transactions and you know, you submit that as the deduction. And then if you're audited, you can explain that the church wouldn't provide the documentation and you can show your transactions on your end through the canceled checks or the print off of your statement.
But I'd probably take one more step to try to get that print off on their letterhead of a contribution statement, even if that meant you have to drive by and see if you can find somebody that can help you. Okay. Well, thank you very much. You're welcome, George. I appreciate your call and I'm delighted to hear that you're a faithful giver and also that you're taking full benefit of the tax deductions that are entitled to you.
I think that's a great idea. Folks, that's going to do it for us today. So thankful to have you along with us today. And again, as we head toward the end of our fiscal year, June the 30th, this is a really important time for us to hear from you with your financial support for faith and finance. A gift of $25 or more allows us to send you our new study, Rich Toward God, as our gift to you. To support our work, just head to faithfi.com and click Give. That's faithfi.com and click Give. A big thanks to my team today, Devin Patrick, Jim Henry, and Dr. Robert Youngblood. We'll see you tomorrow. May the Lord bless you. Bye-bye. Faith and Finance is provided by Faithfi and listeners like you.
