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It can be the beginning of a new expression of it. Hi, I'm Rob West. For years, retirement has been framed as the time to finally stop working. But what if that idea is incomplete? What if we were created for something more enduring than leisure alone?
My good friend Mitch Anthony joins us today to talk about how to live a purpose-driven retirement. And then it's on to your phone calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey.
Well, we're delighted to welcome Mitch Anthony back to the program. He's the best-selling author of The New Retirementality: Planning Your Life and Living Your Dreams at Any Age You Want. Mitch, great to have you back, my friend. Yeah, good to be here, Rob. Mitch, you've written a thoughtful piece in the latest edition of Faithful Stewart, our magazine, on what it means to have retirement planning that works.
I know you've been working on this for decades, researching, writing, speaking on this topic, but you open with a compelling insight that in Hebrew, the words for work and worship share the same root. And I love this picture. Unpack that for us. Yeah, Voda. I mean, it's uh when I first read it I thought I had to give it a double take.
Like what maybe there's more to this relationship. To work than we give it credit for, and maybe work need not be a four-letter word, if you will. And when you get to thinking about it, How many people do you know who just have joy in what they do and they have passion in what they do and they bring excellence to whatever craft they are involved in? That shows the spirit of work, doesn't it? And what if everybody in the world brought that attitude, that spiritual attitude to the work they did?
Yeah. How much better would our systems work? A game changer. I mean, a powerful reframe, especially in a culture that treats retirement as a finish line of, well, doing nothing.
So, how do you define work in this broader, more meaningful sense? Yeah, you know, two things I'd like to define, Rob. One is work and one is retirement, the modern definition of retirement. I think the modern definition of retirement is, just to take the words you just spoke, it's an artificial finish line. It was one that was superimposed upon our life by outside forces.
It's somebody out there, some institution, some corporation, some society saying, hey, you're 65. We don't need you anymore. And now contrast that with, and I'll give you my, this is just my handmade definition of work. I believe work is an engagement. that brings value to others and meaning to you.
And that value that you bring to others can be almost anything. Yeah. Right. It could be almost anything. I mean, the person who's sewing blankets for the needy, or the person who's building the high tower, or I don't care how we frame it, that engagement, if they do, if they set out to bring value.
To those around them, it's going to give them a sense of meaning. And what is a sense of meaning? It's that knowledge that I've done something meaningful. Yeah. So what then is retirement?
When we think about that picture of work, which completely is different than what the culture would have us to believe, how does that translate into retirement? Yeah, well, it becomes confusing to people. You know, I one of the lines I use with people is please show me where the used by date has been tattooed on you. Right. I mean, says who?
Right. Not all 65-year-olds are equal. I mean, how many of us know someone in their 80s who acts like they're 40? And how many of us know someone in their 40s that acts like they're 90s? Right?
It all comes down to the bearing that you bring to what you do. And we all know, and I'm not saying everyone should die with their boots on, but we do know there's a lot of people that will. Yes. Because the day they wake up with nothing to do. is the day they begin dying.
Mm. Wow. And even Warren Buffett, I remember this 30-some years ago. I think Warren's 95 now. 30 years ago, when he turned 65, they asked him, When are you going to retire?
And he said, Two days after I die. Yes. Well, that's a whole different perspective. And we were created in the image of God, a worker. And so we should be working for God's service and the benefit, as you said, of others, but it enriches our life as well.
When we come back, we'll continue with Mitch Anthony. What are the non-financial challenges people face in retirement? What about identity and calling? And much more, we're talking about a biblical approach to retirement, finding purpose in the fourth quarter of life. We'll be right back.
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Our mission is to lead people away from despair and toward the hope of Jesus. Bring emergency aid and the hope of the gospel to a family impacted by the war. Text the word faith to 98656 or visit faithfight.com/slash Lebanon. Yeah. Retirement isn't the end of your purpose.
It's a new season to live it out. I'm joined today by Mitch Anthony here on Faith and Finance. We're talking about a biblical perspective of retirement. Mitch, before we dive into some of the non-financial issues we need to address in this retirement season of life, help us understand how the culture got to this place in the first place. How did we get this idea of retirement that's so commonly accepted today?
Well, it's a relatively new idea, Rob. I mean, we only have to go back about 140 years before we saw some system appear like this. And it was in industrial Germany under the leadership of Otto von Bismarck, who mandated that if they worked for the government, the German government, and they were 70, that they had to take retirement. And it was really sort of a disability payment insurance. And ironically, von Bismarck himself at the time of the legislation was 76 years old, so he apparently got grandfathered in.
And the average German worker in that day lived to be 46.
So the original marker For retirement, if you will, was 24 years past life expectancy.
Now, we borrowed the idea wholesale here in the United States during the Great Depression, and we were having great unrest in the streets over unemployment. And a senator and a congressman approached FDR and said, We need to get some of these younger guys to work, and what we should do is start a government program that incentivizes people to stop working when they turn 65. And so that's how this idea took hold in the United States in 1935. And then in 1937, they ratcheted the age of eligibility back to 62 because they realized that the average American worker only lived to be 63.
So originally, Rob, this idea was designed to be about a one-year bridge between stopping work and going to the grave.
Well, what's changed? Longevity's changed. We now have people we literally have people that are living longer in retirement than they spent in the workforce. And it the system wasn't designed for that. Yeah, that's exactly right.
And we haven't modified our approach to fit this longevity. And what people are quickly discovering, Mitch, is that leisure alone doesn't satisfy, right?
Well, that's one of the strange ironies of this whole thing. You know, the idea that we're going to work, work, work, never play. And then suddenly cold turkey stop all the work and go play our life away. And then a guy named Del Webb came along. I think we all know who he is.
Sure. Right. And he started building these sun cities and selling this dream that we're going to build you a house on a golf course and you're going to even have a garage for your cart. And you're just going to play your life away. Right?
Well, what they found is that there's a diminishing law of return on leisure. That when all you have to do all day is play, the play isn't as fun anymore. And I've seen this empirically, and I've seen it over and over with people who said, you know what? My life became a groundhog day. I met the same people for the same breakfast at the same time, went to the same golf course, shot the same score, you know, over and over and over.
And I like to put it this way: we need to find a balance between vacation and vocation, not one or the other, but a balance, right? And it's the vacation that gives our vocation meaning, and it's a vocation that gives our vacation meaning.
So each individual has got to sort of work out their own life plan, if you will, to get those two things in balance. But one or the other isn't going to do it. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. That is so well said. Let's put a finer point on that, Mitch.
What are some of those non-financial challenges that people encounter in retirement?
Well, one of the first things they find is cognitive challenge. There was a study that came out of the UK here two years ago, and they found in your first year of retirement, you can expect a 30% reduction in short-term memory.
Now, I'll bet you none of your listeners has that on their bucket list, right?
So, and it goes from there. One of the things they found about the progression of both Alzheimer and dementia is that one of the key factors leading to the progression of those two states, and I'm not talking genetics now or DNA, I'm talking about lifestyle factors. One of the key factors is maintaining intellectual challenge in your life.
So when you stop challenging your mind. And fixing things, if you will, or engaging yourself in that way, you know, it's like they said in Iowa: use it or lose it, right? And it happens to people. People can feel themselves slowing down. And guess what?
It's going to take more than a crossword puzzle for a lot of people. Yeah, that's right. And that really brings us to this deeper side of the conversation around identity and calling. Because as Christ followers, Mitch, we need to think about purpose in this season of life differently, shouldn't we? Yes.
Well, i if you read Ephesians 2, right? It says that we were created for good works. We are his workmanship. I love that phrase because it says, we are his workmanship. created for good works.
Do do you see a time stamp on that? Do you see a parameter that says we are his workmanship until we're 60? No. Right? He made us, he gifted us to do certain things on this planet.
We're here for a reason. And no social agenda around work and retirement. can erase that. I still wake up. I'm in my 60s now.
I still wake up and know I have purpose, and I have to seek that out every day. What did he create me to do? And it has something to do with helping others. Yeah. Boy, that is so good.
So Mitch, how do you help someone discern what will bring real meaning and purpose in this season of life? What would you say to those listening today?
Well, you know, a lot of people feel victimized. Maybe their corporation gave them the left foot a fellowship, right? Or they downsized or their business failed or something like that. And they feel a little bit lost. Even I live in a town full of thousands of doctors at Rochester at the Male Clinic.
And they go through an identity crisis when they stop doctoring, right? And what I always walk people through is, A, what were the gifts that brought you to where you were? B, what valuable knowledge did you garner in all that experience? What experience can you carry forward with you? This leads some people to becoming coaches, teachers, consultants, right?
Sure. Because they can use that experience. That experience is valuable. And then, so it starts with: you know, what are the gifts that brought you to where you are? What did you learn along the way?
And who could benefit from what you know? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Those are questions that apply no matter where we work or who we work for.
And Mitch, I know you've been at this a long time. And as you've seen people start to ask a different question, what brings value to others and meaning to me? It's been a game changer for the people you've journeyed alongside, hasn't it? Yeah, a lot of people have said, well, a lot of people said the work I was doing was draining me. I wasn't helping anyone.
I dreaded going there. And it helped them to realize I'm here for a reason. And the reason isn't to get worn down. Yeah. And so for some people, it's a change in attitude, but for others, it's a change in venue and environment.
And the people they work with, because sometimes the people you work with can drain you as well. Yeah. Well, Mitch, we could talk about this for hours today, but I love this idea that we don't have to aim for a life of pure leisure. We can aim for a balance, a rhythm of rest, but also relationship and contribution and live out this fourth quarter of life in a way that's God-honoring and fulfilling and leads to full longevity. Mitch, really appreciate your time.
Thanks for stopping by. All right, thanks, Rob. Folks, if you'd like to pick up a copy of Mitch's book, it's available wherever you buy books. It's called The New Retirementality: Planning Your Life and Living Your Dreams at Any Age You Want. Your calls are next at 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7000. I'm Rob West, and this is Faith in Finance: biblical wisdom for your financial journey. The freedom you're looking for may begin with one question. How much is enough? That's why we created the Faith Five Field Guide, How Much Money is Enough, a scripture-centered resource designed to help believers just like you find contentment through biblical wisdom.
When you become a Faith 5 partner by May 31st with a gift of $35 a month or $400 a year, you'll receive this field guide as our way of saying thank you. You can visit faithfi.com/slash give today. That's faithfi.com slash give. Are you feeling overwhelmed by credit card debt? As followers of Christ, we are called to be good stewards of what God has given us.
That's why our trusted partner, Christian Credit Counselors, is here to help. Their debt management program can help you pay off your debt 80% faster while honoring your commitments in full. Take the first step toward financial freedom today. Visit faithby.com/slash ccc or call 800-557-1985. Hey, thanks for joining us today on Faith and Finance.
I'm Rob West. We're taking your calls and questions today, 800-525-7000. You can call right now. Let's see, up to New York. Rosa, go ahead.
Yes, hello. Hi there. My question is, here in New York, If your spouse leaves no will, which my husband did not, And His assets are to be divided between myself and Anyway, kids, but he's the only one who had kids. before we were married. and they contribute nothing toward Uh finances.
Ah, the home. And my husband, he refused to put my name on any his bank accounts are on the home because that's the way he wanted to deal with stuff. Mm. And I wanted to know With weapon No you are. state law says about the inheritance if they did it in a ruling of fairness.
Yeah. is that supposed to be divided. between myself and his Living Yes. Why? I mean, could I?
petition the court uh something True. Show that I It's all rightfully mine. Yes. Well, Rosa, thank you for this question. I know this is a difficult one because of the situation.
And let me just make sure I understand clearly. Has your husband passed? Yeah, they Months ago.
Okay. Yeah. I'm so sorry about that. I am not an attorney. And so, you know, the definitive answers related to all of this would come by way of you connecting with an estate attorney, somebody who could help you navigate, as you point out, the laws of the state of New York.
I will tell you just kind of generally: when someone dies without a will, the estate follows the state's what are called intestacy laws. And the distribution depends on whether there are children.
So if there's a surviving spouse and children in the state of New York, my understanding is the spouse receives the first $50,000 of the estate, and then the rest is split, one half to the spouse and one half to the children. And that's just typically the way that works.
So if there was $300,000, the spouse gets $50,000 plus half of the remaining $250,000.
So that'd be $100,000. 175,000, the children would get 125,000. And the only way really to overcome that, and again, you're going to want to get with an attorney to confirm all this and talk about your specific situation. But really, the only way to avoid that would be, you know, while both are living, to create a will, title the home correctly.
So it's, you know, titled in both names, you know, which you would, you know, want to make sure you do that, you know, either joint tenants with right of survivorship or tenants in the entirety, but you'd want to retitle the home, add beneficiary designations, things like that, that would make sure that the assets passed outside of the estate. Or clearly there was intent in the will as to how the state's to be divided. But without that, it is unfortunately going to just revert to the state's intestacy laws, which, you know, it sounds like you've already been given what that. is and I understand it's challenging just given that that means that you'll get roughly half, a little bit more than that. But I don't see apart from you an attorney telling you there's some other way, I don't really see any way for you to challenge that at this point.
Hello.
Okay. Yes, that's what I needed to just kept bothering me. Yeah. I'm sorry, Rosa, but I do appreciate your call today. If we can serve you in any way along the way, let us know.
I'm going to send you a book called Wise Women Managing Money, written for widows who are now managing their financial affairs on their own. And I think it'll be an encouragement to you. It's called Wise Women Managing Money. Thanks for your call. Let's head down to Florida.
Jay, go ahead. Hi, Rob. I know the show's coming up to the end, so I'll try to be quick.
So my question is concerning the correct way to set up a 401k with your employer The correct way to set up your contributions when you started later in life.
So I'm I'm fifty-three. And I've only been contributing to this four hundred one K for a little over two years. I don't I I've never had a 401k, so this is the only money that I have in there.
So when we originally set it up, I set it up as pretax because the representative, the advisor for the company said, yes, you don't have a lot of money, you're not going to contribute a lot, so that's fine, pretax.
So now I'm coming up on 2.5 years and I've got more than $22,000 in there, but I've always been contributing pre-tax.
So the thinking was that, okay, I'll be working for another 10, 15 years. When I retire, I won't be working.
So my tax bracket will be different.
So why not just contribute now all you can, even pre-tax, because then it won't hit that hard when I start withdrawing. uh after I retire 'cause my tax bracket will be lower.
So that's how we set it up now. But I am so unclear as to whether that is the appropriate way to have set it up. And if I should change it to deduct the taxes before even though I only have ten years of contributions, maybe available. Yeah, it's a great question. And the conventional wisdom is just what you said: that older workers should be funneling most of their contribution in traditional accounts because they're at the peak of their earning years.
And so that tax deduction is more valuable today with your earning power and what your wages are versus in retirement when you pull it out of the pre-tax and you know, hopefully you're in a lower bracket because you're not earning as much because now you're retired. The only thing that doesn't factor in is the risk of rising tax rates, which most people would believe just based on what we know that we're probably at the low end of what the potential tax rates are in the future under a different administration. And there's no way to know what those are going to be in the future, but there's a decent chance that they're going to be higher and maybe quite a bit higher than they are today for a variety of reasons. And this was the subject of a study from some. Researchers in the University of Arizona several years ago, and they were looking at this.
They studied this very thing, and they came up with a rule of thumb that produced, with the thousands of people that they looked at, their actual situation, that produced a near-ideal result. And that was. To do a combination of the two, and what their rule of thumb is, is that you add 20 to your age, and then you put that percent into the traditional account, and then you put the rest in the after tax.
So at 50, you would add 50, you would add 20 to your age.
So you'd come up with 70.
So in your case, 70% would go into the pre-tax and 30% would go into the after-tax. And that would just give you a second bucket of funds that's growing that would give you something to pull from in the event during retirement if you were in a, we had much higher tax rates. Does that make sense? Thank you, Issa. Thank you, Rob.
All right. God bless you, Jay. Thanks for calling. Big thanks to my team today, Dev and Robert and Taylor. We'll see you next time.
Bye-bye. Faith in Finance is provided by Faith Buy and listeners like you.
