Utopia Reimagined with Jim Jones

If you enjoy this podcast, you're going to love all the many different resources waiting for you at Faithfi.com and the Faithfi app. You'll find powerful wisdom, free podcasts, articles, videos, and more from leading voices such as Randy Alcorn, Howard Dayton, Ron Blue, and our own Rob West. Grow in wisdom and knowledge by connecting with a community of thousands of Christians striving to be good and faithful stewards at Faithfi.com or by downloading the Faithfi app. Larry Burkett often said that capitalism must be tempered by Christian love, compassion, and stewardship. Hi, I'm Rob West.

Proponents of capitalism and free markets don't often express that concern just as believers in social welfare rarely count the cost. Jim Jones joins us today to talk about a new way of looking at those ideas and then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, today's guest, Jim Jones, is a good friend. He's a chartered financial analyst and a certified kingdom advisor.

He's also the author of the novel, Utopia Reimagined, an allegory of capital and conscience. Jim, great to have you on the program. Thanks, Rob.

Glad to be here. You know, Jim, this may be the first time we've interviewed the author of an adult fiction work. Not many of them focus on biblical finances or economics. And so I'm so thrilled about this conversation and introducing this incredible book to our audience.

What made you decide to go this route instead of nonfiction? Well, Rob, you know, it's been my experience and maybe yours that a lot of our time that we spend in our Christian communities is we talk about theology and how that interacts with our lives. And obviously that's really important, but we rarely talk about economics and politics. And the way I define economics is money and wealth and how we distribute goods and services within our community.

And then politics is the authoritarian structure and how we use power. You know, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about these topics, and yet his views were very countercultural. And when we don't talk about them within our Christian communities, oftentimes people will end up just adopting the current culture views about economics and finance and politics. And they can oftentimes be in contrast with what Jesus actually taught. And so one of the challenges is if somebody has core beliefs about economics and politics that aren't actually aligned with what Christ taught, how do you challenge them to rethink that?

Well, I look at the example of Jesus Christ. What did he do when he wanted to challenge somebody to think about who's your neighbor? He told a story about the Good Samaritan.

That's right. When he wanted to challenge somebody about how God interacts with sinners and how he relates to them, the prodigal son. So Jesus used stories to try to help people think about these deep truths. And I think there's a couple of reasons. One is we can live within that story. We can interact with those characters. It sticks with us.

We think about them later and it becomes more effective to us as it goes through. And so if I want to be effective at helping people think through these things, we ought to use a story. It's interesting that G.K. Chesterton once asked the question, why do novels sell more than science textbooks?

And his answer was surprising. He said, because the novels are more true. Life is sometimes like a science textbook, but life is always a story. And so that's why I wondered, I thought to be most effective, we need to do it in a story form. Well, I appreciate it. It's powerful and I think you're spot on. And that's why this novel is so effective. Set it up for us. Just the big idea. What is the story about?

Well, I think the title gives it away. I mean, that's exactly what we're trying to do is we're trying to reimagine what utopia looks like. Yeah, and you do that with some really powerful characters. Before the break here, let's talk about one of the key characters, and that's Alexander. Yeah, Alexander is a peasant in 18th century France. He lives in under the monarch and in a feudal system. And even though he's incredibly talented and he's hardworking and he really wants to make something better for his family, within that society, he just can't. And so he takes his sister with him and they go through and they have to flee.

So they go into a magical cave. And as they leave that, they end up into Santos, which is a new society. And he's able to really have freedom there to develop his talents. And he's compensated for what he contributes to society. But he also finds there are very socialistic tendencies there. And so he has to leave. And so he takes Pauline with him and he ends up coming through the cave again and coming to New York City.

Kind of the epitome of free market capitalism and democracy. But he finds himself very successful in New York City. However, he starts to see some flaws and cracks in that. And so that becomes a real challenge for him.

Yeah. Well, after the break, we'll unpack the other characters and then some of the big ideas. What role does faith play in this? What does the ideal society look like? And how can we then apply this to our lives?

We're talking today with Jim Jones. He's the author of the thought-provoking novel, Utopia Reimagined. An allegory of capital and conscience.

You can learn more at utopiareimagined.com. I'm Rob West. This is Faith and Finance. We'll be taking your questions today as well.

That number, 800-525-7000. Biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Stay with us. If you enjoy this radio program, you're going to love all of the many different resources waiting for you at faithfi.com and the FaithFi app. You'll find powerful wisdom, free podcasts, articles, videos and more from leading voices such as Randy Alcorn, Howard Dayton, Ron Blue and our own Rob West.

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With me today, my friend Jim Jones. He's a Chartered Financial Analyst and a Certified Kingdom Advisor. He's the author of the powerful novel, Utopia Reimagined, an allegory of capital and conscience.

And what an insightful and really delightful way to explore biblical themes of economics and finance through this really powerful story. And Jim, before the break, you set that up for us and introduced one of the major characters, Alexander. There's another major character Pauline.

Tell us about her. Well, Pauline is Alexander's sister and she travels with him through these different societies. And while Alexander is really focused on the economics and political structure, and that's kind of where his area of interaction with those societies occur. Pauline's is more on the moral and cultural side. And so she has to decide what's right and wrong and the social fabric of the different societies. One of the nice things about having a novel and being able to write in this way is, you know, we can go through and talk about what the differences between the societies are and you can intellectually learn about it. But by being in a story, you can actually feel it emotionally. And so you'll have an opportunity to understand what the person felt like in those different societies. And so ultimately, at the end of the book, thankfully, Alexander and Pauline are able to find utopia.

And that's where we end. I love it. You obviously are a certified kingdom advisor. You're a charter financial analyst. How has your experience as a financial analyst influenced not only the story, but also these characters? Well, I mean, it's very important because, you know, to see where error is, you have to know what truth is. And so having been a financial analyst for over 30 years, a CFA charter holder and taught economics in a collegiate setting. I understand economics. And so when people state things that are erroneous or they have flaws in their logic, I can see that.

But really importantly, when you become a CKA, you really dive deep into God's word and say, why does he teach us about money and power and finances? And so then when clients or other people start talking about views that are inconsistent with that, you can really bring those out. And it's very clear.

So it's very important to have that background. Yeah, I think these characters are also very relatable. How do you think the readers connect with Alexander and Pauline? Well, I think this is, again, where 30 years of experience of managing money and working with clients has been helpful.

I don't know that there's any view in terms of what could be changed in society, whether it's politics or whether it's, you know, culture or whether it's economics that I haven't heard over that 30 year period. And so these characters really just kind of exemplify or they cover the archetypes for those different views. So I think you'll be able to see yourself in some of the characters.

And obviously, people come in contact with. Let's talk about the role that faith plays in these characters lives. Well, I mean, faith is incredibly important for some, but it also represents what we see in the broader society. So for some of our characters, faith is everything.

It's everything they see. Everything they do is through the eyes of faith. But then we have some characters where faith is important, but the other things are important.

Ambition, wealth and need to be accepted. And so for those characters, when those come in conflict, sometimes they put faith in second place. And then we have some characters that just don't think faith has a place in society today, that it needs to be relegated to something private or nonexistent.

And so I think you'll be able to see all of those. One of the things that's really nice about, again, having a novel is that not only can we understand what people believe, but we can understand why they believe it. You know, nobody takes a position that they believe to be irrational. They have reasons for it. And so if we can delve into why they believe what they believe, even if you think that they don't believe what's right, it does give them the opportunity to maybe have some compassion or some understanding. And so the interactions with those people that you might have in the future would be better because you understand why they believe what they believe.

Yeah, that's really helpful. Well, of course, the book is titled Utopia Reimagined. So take us into that ideal society for a minute, Jim.

What does it look like? Well, I think as a Christian, you'd have to say it's the kingdom of God fully realized. I mean, when we have the new heavens and the new earth, that's going to be utopia, obviously. And if we think back to the garden before the fall, God gave Adam a job. He gave him work to do.

He gave him Eve to have society. And if we think about heaven after the new heavens, new earth, over a billion people, we're going to have a large number of people that are in this society. And we're all not going to be doing the same thing. There'll be musicians, there'll be farmers, there'll be chefs. We'll still have to redistribute goods and services.

That's economics. We're still going to have a structure of society that has power and authority, and so we're going to have politics. But they're all going to be done within the nature of Christ and under his leadership.

So we're not going to have poor or oppression. We're going to have freedom and care for others. We're actually going to be able to see what agape self-sacrificing love looks like when we all participate.

That is powerful. So you talk about the kingdom of God, and that's of course what we all want to experience. What does that look like for our listeners? Well, I think to make that happen, you can't start at a global or national level. You have to start at your own individual Christian community. If you think about what God gave us as a vocation, when he created man, he gave us that we are image bearers. And so we are supposed to reflect the character of God.

And to do that, we look back and say, what is that? Well, John says the character of God is love. And God can be love because he's one God but three persons.

And so God the Father, loving God the Son, loving God the Holy Spirit in this self-sacrificing agape love, that's the nature of who God has always been and will be. And if we're going to reflect that, we have to do it in community. So I can't do that by myself. I have to have self-sacrificing love that gives to you, Rob. You give it to me. We give it to the other people within our community. And if we're able to do that, and we do it in total in terms of including economics and the goods and services that we have, the money that we have in terms of our power and how we manage that, it really does open up an opportunity for us to have the most fulfilling, joyful experience that is so wonderful that it actually is a light to those in the darkness that wants to bring those people in. Of course, we can't do it on our own. It's through the power of the Holy Spirit as he reveals truth to us, as he reveals, gives us the power to be able to become communities that really exhibit that full kingdom of God.

That's how it starts. And that's where we need to start is in our Christian communities. Wow, what a powerful vision.

I love the way you've done this to celebrate God's design for not only economics and wealth creation, but also for community and agape love and loving our neighbors well. Now, Jim, most authors finish a book, do the tour, and then move on to the next project. But I know your vision is to turn Utopia Reimagined into something of a teaching experience. So tell folks about that and how they can get more information.

Well, that's absolutely true. So, you know, you can go to utopiareimagined.com. There's links there to buy the book, but there's also the opportunity to download a discussion guide. And I really think, you know, an individual can read the book and get a vision. But when they read it in community, when they read it in their Christian community, they'll be able to share and discuss and come up with a common vision. I mean, that's why Utopia Reimagined was written, was to start a discussion of what that common vision looks like. So utopiareimagined.com, you can get the book, you can download the study guide. Obviously, it's available also on Amazon.

Just for this week, for our listeners, we've lowered the price of the Kindle edition to only $1.99, which is a great opportunity for people to look at that. And then if, in fact, you get into your Christian community and you find that there's opportunities that you want to dig deeper, I'm going to have opportunities for people to reach out, schedule a Zoom meeting. I'd love to have a conversation with you and your Christian community of how you could actually create Utopia and the Kingdom of God within your courtroom.

I love it. Thanks for giving us an idea of how biblical stewardship and Christian love working together can make the world a better place. Jim, thanks for being here. Thanks, Rob. That's Jim Jones, author of the thought-provoking novel Utopia Reimagined.

Again, the website utopiareimagined.com. All right, your calls are next. The number, 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000.

We'll be right back. Investing involves risk, including potential loss of principal. Carefully consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of Guidestone funds before investing. They're distributed by Foresight Funds Distributors, LLC, which is not an advisory affiliate, a registered investment advisor, nor do they provide investment advice. We're grateful for support from Eventide Investments on the Faith and Finance Program. Eventide's approach to values-based investing is grounded in the belief that humankind was created in the image of God with intrinsic dignity, value, and worth. Eventide calls this investing that makes the world rejoice. More information is available at eventideinvestments.com. That's eventideinvestments.com. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance, helping you be that wise and faithful steward of God's resources.

In order to do that, we want to help you tackle those specific questions that you have. You can call right now, 800-525-7000. We've got a few lines open. We'd love to hear from you today and get you in the mix. Again, 800-525-7000. Let's go to Washington, KMBI. Hi, Linda. Go ahead. Hi, Rob. I have a question and I have to say that I had listened to your program.

I really enjoyed it a lot. Every time somebody calls in with a question about a rental property or buying one, you always say, well, you've got to be up for that because it's a lot of work and you might not be ready. Well, I have been a landlord for quite a while.

Things went well most of that time. But my last tenant was the problem tenant and I decided I don't want to be a landlord anymore. So it's a duplex and I live in the lower level and the top hasn't not been rented for one year and I can handle it by myself currently.

And I am thinking that in a year I'm probably going to sell it. So my question is, what would be my better way to go if I rent it again? And this is a good time to rent. I live in Chelan, Washington.

It's a tourist town. Rentals are pretty tight. I could advertise and rent it because I've kind of gotten over that bad feeling. But if I don't rent it and I don't have to sell it with that 1031 exchange versus renting it and then having to buy another one.

Or if I don't buy it, I believe it's like a 20% repay of the depreciation I've gotten as a landlord. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that's kind of confusing.

It confuses me, but I'm kind of trying to figure out what's the best way to go. Yeah. So this is a duplex, is that right?

That's what you said? Correct. Yeah. OK. So you live in one side of it or are you renting out both sides? No. I live in the lower level.

It's up and down. And I have not rented the upper one since my last tenant left last May. Yeah. OK. And you said you're about a year away from being ready to make that sale. Is that correct? Or are you considering going ahead and selling right now?

No. I have some things I need to do before I sell it, but I'm looking at a year down the road. OK. Yeah. So that would be the key is, you know, you touched on that 1031 exchange. The IRS only lets you, you know, the business use property qualify for the 1031. So half of the duplex that you rent out can go into the 1031.

The side that you live in can't unless you set it up differently. And so you'd have to split that in your mind. The rental side counts as the investment. And so, yeah, you would have the I'm sure you're aware that 45 day period of time and then to identify a buyer and then the 180 days, you know, to get that closed. So obviously you wouldn't be able to do that. So the alternative is for you to go ahead and count that as a long term capital gain, assuming you've held that for more than a year.

And you're just wondering which one would be best. Is that correct? Yes. OK. And do you want to get out of the rental business, though, altogether? I'm exploring that now because I had a little bit of retirement. I'm a hairdresser.

We never set our industry up well. And I watched that retirement go down and decided to invest in it was a single family house. I bought it and then converted it the lower level into it. So I've been doing this for about 17 years.

Oh, wow. OK. Yeah. So if you were just to sell everything outright and get out of rental property, what would you do kind of as a next step? You would just go buy a personal residence then and be done? Well, if I could do it exactly what I want, I would buy myself a nice little C class camper and just go somewhere warm in the winter because Washington is not warm in the winter.

And then I don't go visit my kids or come back here and not really have anything to maintain as far as a home. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Got it.

Yeah. So, you know, I think the key here is, you know, that you have to be and I would check with the CPA on this just to kind of run the numbers. You know, although, you know, there's no official IRS rule requiring that two year rental period. Many tax advisers recommend holding and renting the property for at least one to two years if you wanted to be able to demonstrate that on both sides. Otherwise, you just have the side that was the rental and you could, you know, essentially roll that into another property if you want to go there. You know, I think the key for you is determining, first of all, what do you really want to have true about the next season of your life and what would be the best option for you? And I think once you have clarity about where you're headed next, then, you know, structuring that from a tax standpoint, you know, I think you can get some some wise counsel on that. I think to your point, if you're heading into a strong rental season and it sounds like you've been a little bit, you know, jaded because of your last experience from the, you know, the half that you've been renting, you're willing to go back there. And, you know, perhaps this is a time to capitalize on it being prime rental season for you to get some additional income while you take the next year and really plan where you go from here. At that point, you could exercise the 1031 if you wanted to continue. Otherwise, you just kind of cash out of all of it, pay the capital gains on the appreciation for the rental portion, your portion that's your primary residence.

You wouldn't have to worry about that. And then you could move on to whatever's next. Maybe it's that camper or, you know, for you to buy a small place. But, you know, I think deciding what you really want to do in this next season of life is really the key question before you make any decisions because you don't want to get stuck, you know, in something that doesn't fit where you'd ultimately like to head. So I think your next step is really to kind of take a step back, pray through this and decide where you go from here. If you need a CPA to kind of advise you on the specifics for your situation. You could reach out to a certified kingdom advisor there in Washington State. We've got plenty of them at faithfi.com.

They could refer you to a godly tax accountant or CPA who could walk you through all the mechanics of this. But it sounds like you've got several options here for you, Linda. If I can be of help along the way, don't hesitate to reach out. God bless you.

Let's see. We're going to go quickly to Kathy in Minnesota. Hi, Kathy.

Hi, Rob. Thanks so much for taking my call. I have a question on an appreciable life insurance policy that I have. My husband and I are both 65 years of age. We no longer need the death benefit of this policy. It does have a cash value of forty five five. So I'm wondering if we would be better off just getting rid of this policy, taking the cash, making better use of the funds. Couple options we're looking at are investments into the markets or we have a second property that has a mortgage balance of fifty thousand.

Yeah, I like that a lot because I think you could perhaps do some other things with it. You've named a couple of options. You just want to check the taxes so that doesn't catch you by surprise. Anything you cash out that's above what you paid in premiums is going to be taxable to you. But if you don't need the death benefit and you've got other places you can deploy that and you don't need to convert it to an annuity for an income stream. At this point, I like the idea of you considering cashing it out because you no longer need the death benefit and you can accomplish your retirement goals by deploying it elsewhere. Just make sure you check into any surrender penalties.

You shouldn't have them because of how old it is and the taxes. Hey, big thanks to my team today. Devin, Sandy, Taylor, Jim, everybody here at Faith Buy.

I couldn't do it without them. Enjoy the rest of your day. Check out our website at faithbuy.com and come back and join us tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye bye. Faith and Finance is provided by Faith Buy and listeners like you.